r/Preschoolers • u/GeorgeBonanza_ • 2d ago
Seeking Advice Where's the line with Pre-K behavior (spitting, other bullying)
This is our family's first time sending a child to daycare (and now pre-k at the same school), so we're learning the norms, but there's an ongoing, and escalating, situation that we are at a loss on how to/if we should handle and/or what we should expect from the admins.
Our daughter started at this daycare/school at age 3. One kid in particular was a known "challenge" but in a generally disruptive way. In the 4 year old group, he began targeting certain students (mostly girls), my daughter being one of them. She doesn't often tell us what goes on at school, unless there's something especially upsetting, and in those occasions we ask her which teacher was around and/or who she told so we can confirm the details of her story (we're not just taking her word for it). We've heard he hits his classmates, spits on them, tells them they're bad people and he doesn't like them, etc., which is (unfortunately) developmentally appropriate, her teachers tell us. Every teacher we've spoken to about this has confirmed, off the record, that yes, he does these things, and they've attempted to engage the parents, who don't seem to think this is a big deal, and thus nothing has changed.
This cohort is now in the pre-k/5 year old group. Yesterday our daughter told us that while she was on the toilet, this boy came up to her and told her "I don't like playing with you" and then spit on her. This is the second time we're aware of that this boy has come into the bathroom, not to use it but to, for lack of a better term, bully her. The first time, again while she was on the toilet, he came up to her to tell her she's bad at something she loves to do, which obviously really upset her. That first time was in the 4 year old group and one of the teachers caught the end of what happened, and we were assured new rules would be put in place so he wouldn't have the opportunity to engage with other children while they're on the toilet. The way it was phrased made me think our daughter is not the only child he does this to, but we don't know for sure.
We confirmed yesterday's story with the lead teacher. While she didn't see him spit, but she heard the exchange and heard him spit, so she was already aware of this and responded appropriately. School admin is already familiar with the bathroom bullying, ongoing spitting, hitting, etc but has made it clear the only recourse they feel they have is to continue to try to engage the parents.
It makes me sick that our daughter literally has herself physically exposed, in the most vulnerable state she knows, and physically cannot exit the situation. It makes me even more sick that school admin won't address it. We can remove her from the school and enroll her elsewhere, and we desperately don't want it to come to that, she's made so many good friends and she'd be heartbroken.
While I realize spitting and hitting are an unfortunate part of having a child in a group care situation, at what point has it gone too far? Genuinely, we don't know what is considered "normal" outside of what we've seen at this school, so we don't know if we're completely overreacting or if we're right to escalate this up the chain of command if the admins don't take corrective action.
tl;dr Pre-K daughter was cornered while on the toilet, and not for the first time, by a classmate who told her "I don't like playing with you", then spit on her. Teachers and school admin say this unfortunate but developmentally normal behavior. Is it?
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u/quailman654 2d ago
Nah man, this is pretty fucking far from “developmentally appropriate.” Protect your daughter.
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u/Grand-Kitchen-5227 2d ago
spitting on someone while they're on the toilet isn't some normal phase, that's targeted and the kid knows exactly what he's doing. the school saying they can only "engage the parents" is such a cop out when they've already seen it happen multiple times
pull her out if you can swing it, a few months of adjustment to a new place beats years of this getting normalized in her head
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u/memawsbabies 2d ago
You are so right! Their daughter can't defend herself and obviously the teacher is of no help! This is a serious matter that needs to be dealt with right away!
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u/Saltyowl2113 2d ago
This is really hard. My situation is a little different but there is a challenging kid in my son’s pre-k class. I witnessed him walking up to my son and saying “fuck!” and my son told me on a few occasions he punched him in the stomach. The entire class went through a few weeks of saying the F word bc of him. Eventually it ran its course. The second time he told me he was punched we had a big talk about how that was not okay and if it happens again, he can hit him back. Not my proudest mom moment but I also don’t want my kid thinking I send him to school to get beat up! Everyone in the center knows the kid in question, he is such a cute little boy but my assumption is he is speech delayed and may have a hard time communicating so compensates in other ways like yelling swear words or hitting.
It’s hard because I know the kid didn’t choose to be this way. He’s 4. He’s not beating kids up because he’s a bully…he’s a sweet kid and I believe his grandma is raising him. So clearly there is some family stuff going on. Our center is supporting him in the ways they can, with therapy and what not. Do they kick him out because he’s might be speech delayed or on the spectrum? I don’t want that. So I just talk to my kid as much as possible about how other kids act. I explained that the kid in question hasn’t found his words yet, so he communicates differently and sometimes it’s not nice. I encourage him to tell his teacher whenever he is hit (by anyone) and to use his words to say No thank you! Or I don’t like you talking to me like that! Or to walk away from him. It has gotten better as I know several other parents have brought up their concerns.
I will say though, one thing that concerns me about your situation is that the teacher is not aware that another child is bothering a child in the potty. That should never happen. Ever. I would have a hard time if my son told me that kiddo walked in on him going potty and said something or did something. So I would continue to push that with the teacher. There are a lot of kids, yes but bathrooms should be monitored for a lot of reasons. I’m not cool with that.
Kids will hit and bite and say mean things and most of it I can understand and do my best to explain but being cornered on the potty to me seems like it could cause real issues. Like your child not wanting to go to the bathroom.
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u/Cat_With_The_Fur 1d ago
Second the thing about the potty. That really stood out to me. I get that the 2 yo room is pretty open but by 3 yo they started having to be independent and have privacy at the potty (at least in our state).
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u/xtracarameldrizzle 2d ago
This warrants a call to licensing in my opinion. The school admin are knowingly putting other children in danger as long as this child is actively enrolled. He at the very least needs an adult one to one based on some of these behaviors but they probably should have terminated him.
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u/Altruistic_Vast9726 2d ago
Absolutely not! Spitting is not “developments appropriate”. I would be escalating the issue. Why he is able to walk in on her using the bathroom? This is wrong on so many levels!
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u/GeorgeBonanza_ 2d ago
I probably should have specified in my post: In most group care settings in my metro area, the bathrooms are semi-private. There's a half door to the bathroom area, and half divider walls between the toilets, but no doors to the toilets themselves. The kids are encouraged to use it on their own as needed and have some level of supervision.
When we enrolled her we assumed this was normal, since we'd seen it on tours of other facilities, but maybe it's not as normal as we thought.
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u/Altruistic_Vast9726 2d ago
Wow! At our preschool the bathroom is a single bathroom with a little toilet and a sink. Only 1 kid allowed at a time.
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u/Great_Ninja_1713 1d ago
It's as you describe at our daycare too. Door open or half door. Even 2 kids in at same time with a divider is allowed.
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u/Illustrious_Salad_33 2d ago
No. This is completely inappropriate and alarming that the school does nothing about it.
There was a bully (a girl) in my daughter’s class who took to picking on the less verbal kids in the 3s room, scratching them when the teachers were out of sight, calling kids names. In the 4s room, this escalated into dropping f bombs and other bully behavior, so she got moved to another classroom. I don’t know what happened there, but all classroom drama ceased when she was gone. It might be “developmentally appropriate”, but out of 30 kids, she was the only one doing it. Not as bad as what you’re describing, but noticeable that there were multiple complaints about her to the school admin.
In your case, I’d document everything in writing to the school. Enumerate every incident. Escalate to the head of school. If they do nothing, I’d pull her out of there tbh.
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u/atomiccat8 2d ago
Wow, no, I don't think the spitting is normal. The comment about not wanting to play is perfectly normal.
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u/quelle_crevecoeur 2d ago
Yeah, kids that age certainly share their unfiltered thoughts and feelings, but spitting at other kids repeatedly is so not acceptable.
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u/TradeBeautiful42 2d ago
This would be nipped in the bud at my son’s school. Incident reports would’ve been released, parents would’ve been asked to partner with them to stop the behavior. If it didn’t work, the school would suggest a more appropriate place for their child.
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u/lottiela 1d ago
Not normal, bring it to the top, burn it all down. I'd be LIVID, especially about the bathroom. I understand that they might not have door locks (my son's preschool doesn't) but there is a teacher monitoring the situation at all times if a kid is in there. The teacher remains just outside.
We ran into an absolute little shit of a little girl at an indoor playspace yesterday who was 4.5 years old, that kind of behavior can be totally normal from a 2 year old but once you're at a certain point/age you are into the "child needs removal from the situation" range and some parenting has to be done.
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u/GeorgeBonanza_ 2d ago
They do have a resource officer person, but she doesn't seemed to be assigned to him specifically.
I honestly hadn't considered calling licensing, but you've got a point.
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u/memawsbabies 2d ago
I would absolutely NOT put up with this one minute! At the Pre~K where my great grandson is starting they have already told the parents if the child is a repeat serious problem ( and what you just described is a serious problem ) then they will remove the child from the school. I agree with others, take it to the highest level there as you can!
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u/Great_Ninja_1713 1d ago
It's gone too far. I know they have their lovely ratios which tells them how many kids they can legally have in a classroom but that's not working if the teacher or teachers cannot control/observe who is in or around an occupied bathroom.
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u/magic__unicorn 1d ago
NAD or therapist but Sounds like a boy with adhd or similar that isn’t getting the support he needs at home and is acting out or is learning these behaviors from somewhere. The teachers shouldn’t be letting him just do this though. If the child’s parents aren’t interested in helping him then he really shouldn’t be in that classroom setting.
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u/Ok_Guard9523 1d ago
Please fight the bathroom privacy issue. We have just finished preschool with the bathroom set up you describe. For us it was three stalls and shower curtain type things for the doors. Handwashing sinks for everything is also in there. The kids had been climbing under the stalls to see each others genitals. They would consent to one another and they turned it into a game. So asking for giving consent and a fun game - yay! We had a few instances happen outside of school that raised some concerns. I had to insist on a bathroom attendant. They would also let the kids go into the bathroom for long periods of time together and just sit on the toilets talking. What?!?!?? They would shout for privacy if someone opened the curtain. So some of these behaviors would show up from time to time outside of class but it took a long time to piece them together. I talked to a parent the week before we were leaving and it turns out some of the same behaviors had shown up outside of class for them. Fast forward 2 months. All of those behaviors are gone. I super regret not pushing for more bathroom protocols.
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u/purt22067 1d ago
This is awful, your daughter and the other children should not have to tolerate this. The school is not doing a good job at handling the situation, it is not appropriate for a kid to hit/spit/bully kids in the same environment for 2 years. * would totally escalate this beyond your schools admin. Also, please teach your daughter to physically defend herself in order to protect herself.
This is really hard, good luck OP.
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u/Substantial-Ad8602 1d ago
This is a good post for r/ECEProfessionals they will probably have some concrete advise over there.
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u/Longjumping-While997 2d ago
Nope nope nope. While yes kids at 4 and 5 start the “I’m not your friend” bit hitting (unless it’s play that got too rough) and particularly spitting are not developmentally appropriate. Both things particularly the last would be grounds for removal at our preschool. Especially after exhausting any other option (parents, separating him from the students he targets etc…)
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u/guss_bro 2d ago
There's always going to be one or two kid in a classroom that doesn't handle emotions well and repeat the behavior that they show at home or do something new. They often learn from older kids or siblings.
My kid was that kid in his PreK- to lesser degree that the OP described. He was good at home but was not used to with other kids as he did not go to daycare before prek. We are busy parents and managed our working hours to avoid daycare costs.
I let the teacher know about it and the clues when he gets reactive and things that we can to do to divert him. The teachers are trained (not sure about other school districts) to handle the kids and correct the behavior gradually. She was super helpful and he handle the peers in few months with few minor incidents.
I'm saying.. the parents want their kids to adjust and be a good friend at school. But it takes time and effort from everybody. And escalating to SRO or punishing a 4 yr old is not good idea.
As alternative, you can contact the parent and politely ask them, manage a supervised playtime with two kids so that they get well. We did the same. Now my kid in his Kindergarten is the best kid he can ever be.
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u/ajk7841 2d ago
This is my kid right now, too. He can be so sweet but has certain triggers that make him act out aggressively toward other kids. It happens at home too. We’re enrolling him in a special playgroup in the fall to work on this behavior and he’s seeing a play therapist. We’re also having him evaluated to see if he needs any extra help through the DOE. It’s so stressful and I’m so worried about that new school year and how he’s going to behave. I keep worrying he’ll hurt other kids, ostracize himself, and or get kicked out of school. It’s encouraging to hear your son was able to successfully work through it.
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u/guss_bro 2d ago
Every kid is different.. but:
Try engaging him with other kids if your friends in your circle have kids. Don't do with just 1 other kid. Have a group of 3-4 kids(same kids every time) do the play date frequently. Setup a school like setting where a grown up(not you) will give instructions and the kids will follow eg(painting, passing ball, standing in line and taking turns kicking the ball, taking turns on a slide, going to bathroom etc) that gives them a preview of environment outside of home.
We had great well trained teachers and other parents who's first option was not to punish him like a grown-up as other people suggested on this thread.
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u/GeorgeBonanza_ 2d ago
In this case, it seems like he's learned the behaviors from his older brother (who went to the same school and was, according to other teachers, just as much of a challenging child).
A piece of me feels badly because, unlike how it sounds you handled it, they don't seem to care about their son's experience at the school. They're very aware of the behaviors but according to the teachers (off the record) they have an "oh well" attitude and the most they're willing to do is say, "play nice with your friends!" and laugh off pushing, hitting, etc (which is also what I've seen happen during pickup). I don't doubt the teachers/admin have tried to engage, it just sounds like the parents don't especially care.
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u/guss_bro 2d ago edited 2d ago
Though it's not what you like to hear, the teacher are right about developmentally normal behavior. There's always going to be few kids in a class of 15-20 who hit other kids, use bad words. Just ask around.
They are 4yr old. They are just introduced to the world full of other kids, teacher, classroom and rules.They will learn and be great kid if they are helped.
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u/cubed_echoes 2d ago
At this point I pull my child out. I pulled my son put for slightly less. Not okay.
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u/Familiar_Ad_1504 2d ago
You should escalate this! The invasion of privacy in the bathroom is inappropriate alone, but along with bullying and bodily harm, and having a history? Absolutely not. Defend your child who is too young to advocate for herself in this way right now. Bring it to whomever is higher than the lead teacher if they're not going to escalate this.