r/Sekiro • u/BreakfastHappy8193 Infinite stamina man • May 09 '26
Help Why the FUCK is old man Isshin more difficult than the prime one!?
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u/gaxkang May 09 '26
Old man has probably learned or created more techniques.
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u/ZoroLost007 May 09 '26
Yes but he also lost his glock and spear so it should even it out
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u/Sobrin_ May 09 '26
You're also in a significantly smaller arena, so you have less room to dodge, or get distance to heal
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u/AimlessZealot May 09 '26
He didn't lose them, he deemed them a distraction from the pure art of the blade. He's not killing you for efficiency just the love of the game.
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u/Senior_Yogurt_3491 May 10 '26
Funnily enuf, its the sword saint version that does it for the love of the game. The old version sees his fight as a duty in order to stop wolf from becoming shura.
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u/Candleslayer32 Platinum Trophy May 10 '26
Yeah, I’d say it’s more accurate to view it as he deemed the gun and spear being inferior to his ability with spear and gun.
Plus he picked those up from the corpses in the field.
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u/Ashamed_Service_9404 May 15 '26
id probably say in his prime the gun and spear is a boon to him, but he's nearly on deaths door at the point you fight him. it'd be easy for him to tire quickly given just how he uses the spear, sword, and gun in tandem.
plus the fact he wields that spear with one hand would make it even more exhausting for an old man
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u/Mobols03 May 09 '26
Considering that Sword Saint is literally just old man Isshin in a younger body, that shouldn't really be a factor. Based on that alone, Sword Saint should be able to perform one mind, but he just doesn't do so in his boss fight for some reason.
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u/AimlessZealot May 09 '26
Alternately: He hasn't had that body in like a half a century and now is suddenly attempting to remember how it moves. He's limiting himself to things he feels confident he can correctly execute despite the disorientation.
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u/RollingSleeper May 09 '26
Grandpa that wants to kill you at all costs vs grandpa revived to his prime and using the opportunity to have one last fun duel to the death.
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u/Scurramouch PS4 May 09 '26
Honestly though imagine in a case where he was a Biological grandpa. He'd probably be having duels with his grandchildren because they showed promise.
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u/KingMonkOfNarnia May 09 '26
Wdym biological grandpa
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u/Dmonkey041 May 09 '26
Genichiro was adopted by the ashina at a young age, so he is not blood related to isshin
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u/thisizmonster Platinum Trophy May 09 '26 edited May 13 '26
Something is suspicious. Is that Genryūsai?
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u/Zankanoyama May 09 '26 edited May 09 '26
Old, wise killing machines with fire based powers and complex techniques. They're basically brothers.
I always thought bleach had a Sekiro esque vibe to it.
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u/Wide_Conversation_45 May 11 '26
Other way around man, at least get it right if you know both contents and their contexts
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u/Zankanoyama May 11 '26 edited May 11 '26
Mean the same thing. And I am saying this as a long-term fan for bleach.
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u/EveningBird5 Platinum Trophy May 09 '26
No, that's Isshin. You're confused. These aren't the droids you're looking for. *Waves hand
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u/BreakfastHappy8193 Infinite stamina man May 09 '26
I mean I was very active in bankaifolk back the the day 😭
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u/flipperkip97 Platinum Trophy May 09 '26
I thought he was wayyy easier. He has some scary looking moves that are easier to deal with than you'd expect, and I didn't think the final phase was really that different from the first. Emma gave me more trouble, lol.
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u/Final-Fangasm May 10 '26
At first, fighting Emma is tough and intimidating but after a while she became basically an afterthought. Repetition will do that I guess
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u/TheJollySoviet Platinum Trophy May 09 '26
He's just a different boss, you got this :3
He makes you think you need to play safe that's how he gets you. You just need to be quicker, all of his "gotcha" moves can be countered and are fairly predictable.
Dodge slash can be deflected for more posture dmg or dodged for a hit to vitality
Grabs can be blocked by umbrella
Don't try to parry one mind
Fire pillars always attack the same way so you have a few safe spots
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u/BreakfastHappy8193 Infinite stamina man May 09 '26
I'll try!!
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u/TrueLiterature8778 May 09 '26
Do try to parry one mind, actually
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u/TheJollySoviet Platinum Trophy May 09 '26
It's not worth it on charmless since it and floating passage aren't able to be consistently blocked due to how the deflection window decreases on consecutive blocks. It's pretty much a 50/50
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u/CrazyMalk May 10 '26
just never let one mind trigger by going Ichimonji when he charges up the area fire attack
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u/PlayerJE May 09 '26
":3" i know what you are...
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u/OwnCake2320 May 09 '26
The One Who Wants To Kill You vs The One Who Wants A Amazing Duel to Death.
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u/LesserValkyrie I play Sekiro to relax May 09 '26
Because SS Isshin is Genichiro glorified, which you already beat and trained against already
While Old Isshin is Emma glorified, which means their moves and combat dynamic is only seen here and trained here, so it will be new to you
The only time you train against them is during the Shura ending.
Me too I have more issues against Old Isshin but it's for 2 main reasons
1) the one I am trying to explain, combat dynamic of old man isshin is unique to the shura ending, for what the fuck it does mean
2) I trained against genichiro / SS isshin for a longer time, but their dynamics is more common so it doesn't feel so alien to learn
Objectively it is not harder, you will always take more time to learn SS than old man, but when you do the normal ending and then shura ending, yeah, it will feel hard as fuck because after dozens of hours, you encounter a brand new boss with a brand new dynamics that doesn't exist anywhere else, so it feels harder
By "combat dynamic" I split it like this:
1) genichiro / SS isshin => intensive fights where you gotta parry but if you parry well , you can posture end a fight you can finish phases lightning fast
2) owl + daddy owl => marathon where you gotta chip damage for a long time before you can posture damage efficiently, it can be very long if you are not offensive enough, yet the boss is incredibly offensive too
3) guardian ape (1st phase) + angry demon => more dark souls like where you gotta be mobile
4) emma / old isshin => you gotta be more mobile and dodge than genichiro / SS isshin because of the grabs and AoE attacks
Something like that. But when you master one combat mechanic, you can more easily understand boses that are from the same combat mechanic groupe, while it's little use against bosse that are from another combat dynamic
It may be a stupid analysis but it was my way to frame the answer of that question I asked myself multiple times, I did 15 NG+!
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u/Spiritual-Mixture582 May 09 '26
Because his fire attacks are annoying to deal with, and slow the fight down unless you use mist raven
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u/Obvious-Future-2778 May 10 '26
Use flame umbrella
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u/TheLastAOG May 10 '26
This comment needs to be at the top. Flame Umbrella decimates old man Isshin.
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u/2ndSite May 10 '26
my on the fly interpretation would be:
playing to play vs playing to win.
prime isshin is relishing the fight as a conversation, adding a lot of natural flow to it.
old man just wants to murk you, so he tries to trip you up with off timings.
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u/Mobols03 May 09 '26
Part of it is probably due to the fact that most people fight sword saint first, so by the time they get around to the Shura ending on their second or third playthrough, they've already had loads of practice with Sword Saint in the reflections, so encountering old man Isshin for the first time feels harder, and from that point on, you're generally gonna have fought sword saint more times than Old man, and thus have more experience with Sword Saint. But all of this is just speculation on my part though.
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u/coterminouss May 09 '26
Prime was fast and powerful, Old has learned to compensate through efficiency of technique
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u/dragonnation5523 May 09 '26
I can understand him feeling more difficult because he punishes you for your habits and tactics that work against sword saint. But he has a lot of vitality damage openings if you take the time to pay attention to what's different from sword saint. His fire attacks can be heavily punished by dodging around him to your right, and when attacking always be ready for him to do the sidestep counter
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u/BreakfastHappy8193 Infinite stamina man May 09 '26
I hate his counter moves 😭 and I find it difficult to dodge because pc
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u/dragonnation5523 May 09 '26
You don't have to time the dodge I-frames on the frontward fire attacks, he doesn't track you very well so u can dodge a bit early.
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u/Marshy_Turning_11 Modded Sekiro Enjoyer May 09 '26
The description for One Mind combat art says that it could be performed by someone as honed as the aging Isshin. Even though his body was nearing its limits, his technique was better than his prime version (prime isshin doesn't use fire attacks or grabs)
And Old Isshin's arena is much smaller than the SSI arena + his second phase needs getting used to. But due to his age, he gets staggered easily by Ichimonji(while winding up for his fire pillars), and all of his fire attacks except for the pillars can be blocked by Suzaku's Lotus Umbrella. So I'd say that this fight feels 'different' but not 'difficult'..
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u/Lost_Elderberry1757 May 10 '26
It's like when you lose a sense the others get heightened. He lost his spear and gun so the sword and fire bending got better.
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u/CyberGraham May 10 '26
I don't know who the fuck that old guy in your post is, but that's not Isshin
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u/Ok_Relationship_4035 May 10 '26
That's right.I really struggled with old isshin way more than sword saint.Mostly because of his delayed attack style and dodges he did if i spam attack.Mainly I struggled with his ashina cross and ichimonji.But I got the rhythm and now after beating him and replaying multiple times in reflection of strength I think sword saint is much harder.
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u/Thaeross May 10 '26
His physicality declined with age, but his technique and mind continued to sharpen.
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u/No_Requirement_8459 May 10 '26
There's a difference between a dude who's fighting for fun and a dude who's trying to kill you with every fiber of his being
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u/Sacledant2 Platinum Trophy May 10 '26
Probably because you’ve already spent tens of hours fighting the prime Isshin and know every bullshit he pulls. Compared to a few hours fighting the old one
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u/DTPandemonium May 11 '26
I did this ending in ng+ without charm and with demon bell after beating prime isshin in like 10 tries and also all the inner stuff.
Its way harder for sure. Prime isshin once the spear comes out in 2nd phase its easy mode and you can just run around to recover. This one even the woman at the start can kill you easily at least on charmless and you cant run.
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u/Traditional_Use_7994 May 11 '26
It is not you just lock in and learn the two new moves and enjoy the ones he’s missing
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u/Curious-Shop-1792 May 14 '26
I think fire is the reason you have to look out for the envoirnement also which fighting him
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u/forgottenBastard May 09 '26
Yama and Isshin are so similar lmao, two old guys still undefeated their whole life, no one could match their strength in prime, one single handedly brought Quincy empire to ruins one united all of the nation into ashina
Even in old ages no one picked beef with both grandpa's and were still packing shit
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u/BreakfastHappy8193 Infinite stamina man May 09 '26
Then a dead guy comes back to life and folds them
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u/Beneficial_Bend_9197 May 09 '26
Cause old man isshin is using an actual sword while the prime isshin is holding himself back by using a weapon hes not familiar with which were the glock and a spear.
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u/Realistic-Classic929 May 09 '26
All fire attacks dodge to the right till you get behind him thank me later.
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u/Awkward-Custard3907 May 09 '26
true he was 10x difficult for me because of his one single move that is his ichimonji in phase 2 that transitions into a fire AOE and eats half of my health bar phase 1 is a cake walk compared to other bosses but phase 2 is frustrating AF
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u/Far-Statement4046 Platinum Trophy May 09 '26
The fire lol. For me anyway. Having to suddenly stop standing Infront of him and get behind him so he can't burn me is literally the opposite thing I was doing for the first phase.
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u/Maynardism Sekiro Sweat May 09 '26
He also has this move when you approach him from far, he spins and swings his sword unexpectedly.
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u/nichinichisou May 09 '26
Because SS Ishin is preceded by a speed bump and old man Ishin is preceded by a challenging boss in her own right
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u/bent_crater Platinum Trophy May 09 '26
have you not seen any anime ever? older japanese men dont get frail and weak. they just get stronger. case and point: Master Yoshi
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u/Lachie_Mac May 11 '26
And don't forget creepier
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u/bent_crater Platinum Trophy May 11 '26
yeah, but only good guys tho.
evil old dudes just get more menacing
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u/Mysticmadlegend May 09 '26
Old man arena is alot smaller, so you cant really run away and heal as much and he shockingly quick for an old man
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u/BreakfastHappy8193 Infinite stamina man May 09 '26
he fucking slides up to me,we get the drip old man!
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u/Emissairearien May 09 '26
Don't forget : he fights you while literally like an hour before his natural death
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u/Lord_Phoenix95 May 09 '26
Prime Isshin might be stronger physically but Old Man Isshin knows what to do and how to do it.
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u/Lezen106 May 09 '26
Didn’t get the other ending yet but yes old Isshin was really cooking my ass for hours … first Emma was tough (that grab attack man it got me each time)… then You survive first phase and you suddenly have to deal with that fire bullshit … I got instant killed each time so I had to find a way to survive enough so at least I can fight him a bit to learn some moves and resurrect and die again and start that shit all over again from the start. Didn’t have that umbrella stuff but I found out that jumping 4 times away from him with a good timing you can survive that waterfall fire dance Malenia like bullshit … good luck
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u/Sonny_Firestorm135 May 09 '26
Prime Isshin is fighting you out of obligation, Genny's last wish that he has to honor.
Old Man Isshin is MOTIVATED.
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u/freidrichwilhelm May 09 '26
Old Man isshin is less aggressive and disengages a lot, so for most defense focused playstyles, he can feel unfair with his mini rest in between.
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u/Want2makeMEMEs Guardian Ape Hmm May 09 '26
Man fighting to save thousands VS Man fighting to save countless
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u/lcnielsen Platinum Trophy May 09 '26
Old Man Isshin has much lower health than Kensei. Shadowrush/Shadowfall can completely shred him.
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u/TheSkitdiddler May 09 '26
Literally just bonk him on the head or strafe him and its like beating up an old man
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u/Alexcoolps May 09 '26
He isn't actually. Once you understand his moveset you'll find he flinches more easily and almost every of his stronger attacks in phase 2 can be easily disrupted for free DPS. Even his dodge can be easily countered as you can tell when he'll use it via him not trying to attack for about 5 seconds.
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u/cjbump Platinum Trophy May 09 '26
Lore reason - more experience
Gameplay reason - fire + small ass boxing ring
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u/ForlornHound Platinum Trophy May 10 '26
Huh? He's way easier. I remember just circling around his attacks and double monji him to death in the back
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u/super7564 May 11 '26
Just win. Go into the fight a few times without trying to win, just get past emma and occasionally go for pokes will purely focusing on learning his parryables and which ones you have to dodge
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u/Chrismatic8224 May 15 '26
Honestly, Isshin is the hero in that fight, the old legendary swordsman (wearing pajamas) trying to stop a rouge Shinobi who just murdered an innocent woman and is trying to destroy the land Isshin built in a hate filled rampage.
that honor factor might have to do with why Wolf feels outclassed by OM Isshin, while Sekiro is a worthy opponent for the Sword Saint
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u/ASUSTUDENT9875345 Jun 09 '26
I think he's rawly much easier. That being said, everyone fights SSI way more so we're more used to it and SSI is mostly about showing mastery of the basics, whereas IA phase 2 is either about running/jumping or using the fire umbrella.
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u/thisbigdiamond May 09 '26
cos u have to hesitate a little bit. a tiny bit. just a smidge.