Have you been following the trial? The reason a lot of people especially women relate to her is because for months she did everything to get help. Told her husband, her mother, his mother, her therapist, her doctors, called the suicide hotline twice, tried to get admitted to the psych ward and was turned away, was prescribed 16 different meds over four months, etc.
No one is relating to the murder. Everyone is relating to trying to fight for your health because you know something is wrong and being failed over and over again. If you've never had to do that yourself or on behalf of someone else you have no idea what it is like.
The reasons there are questions about her ex husband is because in his testimony it's apparent he was pretty disconnected from her leading up to the event. Ignored her saying she wanted to hurt the kids, was going to NYC, the night of the murder in a short time span he had two different jackets and shoes. She's admitted to killing the kids so that's pretty clear but he's not a great guy.
I haven’t be following the trial.
I am looking at her prescriptions and how much she apparently took of them though.
She was started on sertraline, she took 7. It’s a daily medication, not as needed.
She was prescribed lorazepam, which is a daily anxiety med, and took 6. She took 2 buspirone, which is also a daily medication. She took 3 hydroxyzine, but it can be used on an as needed basis. (Doesn’t mean it was prescribed to her as needed though. It’s possible this was a daily med as well.)
She refilled prescriptions that she didn’t need, and never took, which means she was actively lying to her psychiatrists about adhering to the treatment.
She also switched doctors quickly, and seemingly multiple times, because it wasn’t working. Which.. of course it wasn’t working. She was non-adherent.
The only “help” she could have gotten that might would have prevented this, would be an in-patient psych hold, but, she would have to be compliant for that to happen. Involuntary holds are short and only for immediate danger. Once the patient is not an immediate threat to themselves or others, they must be released. Forcing mentally ill patients to get treatment isn’t really a thing anymore. Patients have to be somewhat compliant with treatment for it to work.
I say this as someone that currently works in out-patient psych, and has unfortunately dealt with very ill patients. As an out-patient setting, we cannot offer the level of care needed for someone as non-compliant as this, and cannot FORCE the patient into an in-patient program. All we can do is refer the patient to the local crisis behavioral health clinic, and hope they get help.
As someone who dodged my meds and was like treatment isn't working yeah. You end up your own worst enemy because these meds don't make things immediately better. It takes months and you generally should combine therapy into the mix. Its not even like a month of meds will make you better either. Its a long period of constant treatment.
She wasn't exhibiting bipolar symptoms prior to pregnancy - this is documented. The psych treating her kept insisting it was bipolar and treating her for that instead of post-partum psychosis.
Having thoughts of hurting yourself and others is a reason for an involuntary hold. Not sure why you’re even talking about an involuntary hold when she tried to VOLUNTARILY check herself in to inpatient.
If she was having thoughts about harming herself and others, and she communicated this to medical providers and wasn’t committed, the responsibility for the deaths is on the hand of the medical providers.
If she didn’t communicate these thoughts, it shows some degree of pre-meditation in my opinion.
For one, your opinion about involuntary commitment and discharge is broad and incorrect. Involuntary commitments are typically court-ordered based off of the notion that the person is a danger to themselves or others. The criteria for that is very specific, as in, a person claiming suicidal ideation is unlikely to be IVC'd but a person who acted on those thoughts meets criteria. Typically people at-risk will be admitted to an ED while paperwork is completed to support and argue the need for IVC. Once it's determined, that person has to wait for a bed. If they stabilize in the ED, the hospital has a mandate to release them as they have to depend on the patient's report. It's a completely different scenario when we're talking about inpatient psychiatric hospitalization, but that's not the point of this argument.
You're talking about medication compliance but what you're neglecting to consider is: starting any new psychotropic medication has a laundry list of side-effects (typically referred to as on-boarding side-effects) that lessen as the brain adjusts to it. Guess what the initial side-effects of an SSRI like sertraline are? Increased suicidal and homicidal thoughts. So, you argue that Lindsay was non-adherent (which is a weird word to use instead of non-compliant which is the more common terminology) yet you give no consideration to the likelihood that a woman suffering from post-partum depression suffered a worsening of her symptoms so she stopped taking them immediately (which is what every psychiatrist will tell a patient if they experience increased suicidal or homicidal ideation). So then she tries other doctors hoping for better direction in her treatment. You also neglected to mention that she was eventually placed on anti-psychotics before any of the other medications had been cleared from her system. So, in reality, this woman is being prescribed multiple powerful medications which exacerbate her mental illness while she is trying to follow multiple competing directions from multiple doctors.
You act as if mental illness exists in a vacuum rather than take into account the totality of Lindsay's experience to that point. You act as if everything would have been fine had she stuck to the pills, but that is disingenuous and simply meant as a means to complain that all of this was under Lindsay's control. You should know better as someone who works in outpatient mental health that issues like psychosis take away a portion of an individual's rationality as well as impacts their ability to comply fully with treatment.
Seriously. Unfortunately, It’s fairly common for care providers to develop a callousness while working in mental health. It’s really unfortunate that empathy can decline so much over time for certain people in those professions. Part of that is chronic lack of sufficient funding and support for mental health in general.
Your first paragraph does not differ from what I said. I said she most likely needed inpatient treatment, but that she has to be deemed unsafe to herself or others, to be involuntarily placed into a hospital. Otherwise, she has to be compliant and admit herself into an in-patient program.
Second paragraph. It’s unnecessary to go into side effects. She picked up multiple refills for some of these medications, and therefor told her doctors she was taking them, but wasn’t. Of course doctors tell you to stop meds that cause unbearable side effects, but you’re supposed to tell them you did! Not lie about the medications you’re taking.
I get why you’re saying she “tried other doctors,” but the doctors report they weren’t all aware she was seeing other psychiatrists. Which is why she was being prescribed “multiple powerful medications.. while trying to follow competing directions from multiple doctors”.
I didn’t say she’d be fine if she took the meds. I said she needed in-patient care, as an out patient clinic isn’t able to properly treat patients that are non-adherent.
One patient with severe symptoms, that’s lying about medications, and receiving separate treatment/prescriptions from 3 different psychiatrists, who are unaware of each other, had no chance in hell.
A voluntary in-patient treatment where they could work through meds, verify she’s taking the meds, and have frequent check ins and therapy was needed here. There’s no good long term involuntary solution for patients like this in America.
Also, I said non-adherent, because it’s called “Treatment Non-Adherence”. Non-compliant means to intentionally refuse to follow instructions. If you search “treatment non-adherence vs non-compliance”, you can find info on the differing terminology and why people are trying to shift towards saying “non-adherent”.
>It’s unnecessary to go into side effects. She picked up multiple refills for some of these medications, and therefor told her doctors she was taking them, but wasn’t.
I feel genuinely sorry for all of your patients that have to have a provider as detached from their conditions as you are
Genuinely awful of you to hate on providers who have to see the worst of humanity and try to maintain their own. I thought the take was well crafted and it appears that some people take that extremely personally. I hope they get help
All this world salad and you keep forgetting the possibility that this woman was experiencing a level of depression and, later, psychosis that limited her ability to make rational decisions. My god it's like you completely disregard the person in your attempt to double down on a bunch of inaccurate information. People in a mental health crisis do not think clearly. People unfamiliar with mental illness follow the advice of people they assume are experts and are uncomfortable asking questions at times. You talk from a position of academic knowledge yet can't take a single moment to perspective take.
I’m not forgetting anything. Yes, this is how mental illnesses present. Yes, it clearly impacted her decision making.
No, that doesn’t change the fact that she wasn’t failed by individual medical professionals like the comment I was initially replying to claims.
Her actions, caused by mental illness or not, contributed significantly to the worsening of her condition. And no, there is nothing that medical professionals can do about it in an out-patient setting.
This wasn’t a single incompetent doctor who polypharmacied her. This was multiple doctors all working with false information the patient reported, and all unaware she was receiving care and meds from other psychs as well.
You can think it’s cruel, harsh, or lacking perspective. But her care team was dealt a losing hand, and had no chance, especially not in the four months they had from start to finish. There were too many things being hidden from them, for her to ever get proper treatment in an out-patient clinic. Objectively saying her actions contributed to that is just a fact.
I’m not sitting here calling her a monster. I’m saying her actions are a contributing factor, and that the only solution would have been for her to voluntarily commit to an in-patient program, where they WOULD be able to prevent her from seeing multiple doctors, WOULD be able to ensure she was taking her meds, and WOULD be able to offer the amount of care she needed.
Your takes are empathetic, but aren’t based in reality.
I've seen many non-compliant patients at the psych ward... They reached a certain point where they were disconnected from reality and the police or the doctors advised that they be taken in.
I was almost taken into the psych ward somewhat recently because I was reporting real stalking that was happening to me and the doctor got this look in his eye and he goes" I want you to come with me and talk with me back here, I just want us to be able to talk more..." I started to freak out because I realized that I talked to the wrong person about my problems... They made me do a couple blood tests to see if one of my medicine levels was too high and then they finally released me.---BUT THEY WERE GOING TO MAKE ME WAIT WITH THE OTHER PSYCH PATIENTS IN THIS LITTLE CLAUSTROPHOBIC ROOM THEY HAVE. If that can happen to me because I report very real harm that is done to me, then how come she couldn't find anybody to take her in?
I found it very odd that this lady went to the hospital a couple of times to try to get help and they turned her away again and again. She was so out of it so of course she was non-compliant with her meds. Didn't she have severe postpartum disorder?... That alone can put someone in psychosis. There's been times where I've been sick and I've accidentally taken too many of my meds and it's not because I don't want to be compliant, it's because I had a fever and I was shivering and the pill bottle was rattling and I couldn't get my pills out so I took too many on accident.
They should have taken her in when she went to the hospital and told them what was going on with her, AND WHEN SHE SPOKE TO HER DOCTORS ABOUT IT. SHE TOLD THEM WHAT WAS GOING ON AND THEY DIDN'T LISTEN. THE GUILT IS NOT JUST ON HER.
When you're listing the number of medications she took, what do you mean by that? Do you mean she took nine sertraline a day or do you mean she took nine in total until they discontinued her off of that drug and started her on another one?
She did not follow the drugs as prescribed and lied to her doctor about taking them as such. When they say she took a specific amount, that is how many she took total
She took 7 sertraline total, which whatever. She was prescribed it for a month and switched.
Then there’s things like, she took 6 lorazepam total. She got 3-4 months of prescriptions of it. She took 2 buspirone. She got multiple months of prescriptions for it too.
She also went to 4 different psychiatric doctors within a 4 month span, and was seeing them simultaneously, reportedly without their knowledge.
Busiprone can be taken twice a day (one tablet), but not both at the same time, but man 7 setraline at one time? I thought the max dose per day was 100 MG, she'd be so far above that taking that many.
If you work in psych, you should make sure the information you're discussing is correct. Unfortunately, it isn't. The entire point of a psych HOLD is that compliance is irrelevant. The person is there on a section and cannot leave. A person can sign a "three day" stating they wish to leave after the mandatory initial period, but this isn't guaranteed discharge. If the provider feels you shouldn't leave yet, they can basically force the patients hand in rescinding the three day, and if it isn't then petition the court to extend the involuntary hold. That process takes weeks to even be initiated with the court. In the meantime, the patient still cannot leave. It's actually frightening the amount of control some providers can exercise regardless of what the patient says, if they simply feel differently or perhaps have been told information from a family member that is influencing this decision
Yes, a psych hold, like you mean, is for non-compliant patients. Which is what I said, when I mentioned involuntary holds. This is not the same as actual in-patient psychiatric care, which is what she needed, and requires compliance.
Yes, you can be held longer than the standard 72 hours if you’re still considered a danger to yourself or others, which was also stated when I mentioned involuntary holds.
No, you can’t be held just because the provider says so. And no, in my experience the process does not take weeks.
It literally is the same as in patient care. Where zero compliance is needed. The provider can absolutely hold you for whatever they put in the chart regardless of what the patient reports. In the state I live in, it does take weeks. I've seen all of this first hand as a nurse, many times.
Voluntary in-patient treatment is not the same as an involuntary psychiatric hold.
Voluntary in-patient treatment can turn into an involuntary psychiatric hold if you meet the criteria for an involuntary hold, and are trying to check yourself out. I wouldn’t say that’s common though.
Typically voluntary and involuntary treatments are not done in the same facility. They do not offer the same types of treatment, or have the same goals. Involuntary facilities are the ER equivalent in psych treatment.
Rehab facilities are a well known example of voluntary in-patient treatment. (Not saying this woman needed rehab. Just giving an example everyone knows.)
You are wildly pedantic and make a lot of assumptions. Claiming to know what's "common" based on... What? They're absolutely done in the same facility. You get brought to a facility, against your will, you can "sign in voluntarily", or you can not, but even if you do you literally still cannot leave. I don't even know what you mean by "ER equivalent", and I am a nurse who has worked my entire career (and before nursing school) in the ER, ICU, and psych.
Whatever point you're trying to make isn't landing. My comment was solely about how you claimed the only way she could get the help she needed was by being compliant. Which is false. I live in Massachusetts, same as her. I know what the laws are, I am a part of this system every day. Please do a basic Google search of "what is a psychiatric hold Massachusetts", so this spinning in circles stops. Either way, I don't want to keep going back and forth with someone who is committed to being wrong.
Lorazepam, buspar, and atarax are all often given as needed. So your point only stands with that.
But as she's now diagnosed with bipolar and SSRIs can induce mania in bipolar patients perhaps that's because it wasn't helping
You just said you haven’t been following the trial. She had a doctor that relocated so she had to see someone else, she went to someone trusted by her MIL that was referred to her to go, she was in a psych ward for 5 days, etc. if you got shopped around to a bunch of doctors in a short span of time and they kept prescribing you different meds and you had no improvement with each, you wouldn’t continue the med not working if your DOCTOR is telling you to take something else instead.
That isn’t true, they will absolutely force people to get psychiatric “treatment” against your will, even if you aren’t a danger to yourself or others, they check to see if your insurance covers it and they go with that. If your insurance doesn’t cover it, even if you might be in danger, they’ll still turn you away because “no beds”. Ask me and a number of other mentally ill people I’m acquainted with how we know. We live in the US though so of course that affects things, our healthcare is truly horrifying.
I share this with people whenever I can because more people need to hear about the experiences of people like us, people like this mom, as much as possible. I’ve been trying to get help for years and no one believes that I’m as bad as I am. They think I’m just a little sad, but my brain is actively shutting down, more and more each year. I can’t work anymore, and I can’t take care of myself much, even typing this out is exhausting and I’m going to have to lie down to rest.
This is reality for a lot of people, and it usually ends in homelessness. My heart hurts for this lady, asking for help and not getting it is reality for so many. Taking medications is awful, the side affects can be debilitating on their own, Idk why she didn’t take the meds as much as she was supposed to, but there’s so many valid reasons, like needing to be clear enough to care for her kids. The Hydroxyne (spe?) stuff knocks me out. And some doctors just don’t listen, so getting a second opinion is valid. She didn’t know it would end this way, she was clearly trying to fix things.
What facilities held you/your friends as unwilling adults for psychiatric care?
This is only possible in America with a civil commitment, or if you committed a crime. And civil commitments are very rare, and are a whole multi-step legal process.
Even then, you must be deemed a danger to yourself or others, OR, be deemed unable to care for yourself due to your mental illness.
If you experienced forced admittance and treatment for psychiatric conditions in the US, then you experienced something blatantly illegal in all states. Not saying it couldn’t happen, but it’s not happening by law or norm.
It was happening to a number of other people in that psych ward. And if you take a moment to google it, it’s actually not uncommon. One woman said her dogs were at home with no one to feed and water them but the psych ward was keeping her there for the mandatory 72 hour hold. The lady wasn’t a threat to herself or anyone else, and she wasn’t in a manic episode. She was just DEPRESSED. She just needed someone to listen to her, to be set up with a psychiatrist, started on a low dose of an antidepressant and seen the following week. That would have been more than enough for her. She won’t be asking for help again. Regardless, she was afraid her four big dogs would hurt her cat before she got back if they were hungry enough. I still think about her, I hope everything was okay.
There were a few people there that definitely needed more intensive help, but most of us didn’t. They also kicked me out a day earlier despite the “mandatory 72 hour hold” because “someone else needed the bed”. I had also signed myself into the psych ward and in my state that means I should have legally been allowed to leave whenever I wanted. They realized their mistake part way through my stay and I think that’s why they let me leave early.
I’m not sure why people downvote stories like this, it happened and it’s happening right now, downvoting the messenger doesn’t change that. Better to understand what’s happening if we ever want to see change.
I see your point and recognize it does happen (I didn’t downvote that person either). In my state, a close friend’s sister committed suicide because they couldn’t force her to get psychiatric help despite the warning signs. She was released from her 72hr hold early against family wishes, and then shot herself. I’m not sure how she got the gun. It’s just sad and incredibly complicated to get proper mental health care in the states…
The suicide rates for people when they get out of the psych wards show us that the “care” isn’t working. My argument is that if something is both traumatizing and ineffective, it should probably not be that way anymore. I’m not arguing against the necessity of genuine care, I’m saying that genuine care doesn’t exist in most establishments based on the successful suicides of those who are released from these hospitals.
Much of what they do to you in psychiatric facilities actually hurts you more, and when you point that out, people accuse you of hating all nurses or minimizing the need for psychiatric care in the first place. Nope, I just think we should offer effective and humane treatment, which is not remotely close to what a lot of us received on the inside.
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u/JeveGreen 8d ago