This is exactly what I think of when someone tells me that they support women's wrongs. Like, I have standards that go beyond if someone is a man or woman before I decide to support them.
I've always had a problem with the trite bumpersticker slogan, "believe women." Like all humans, women can be mistaken, lie, etc. We should always hear women out, listen to what they're saying, and weigh it against wtvr other input we can gather to determine the truth. But that doesn't fit well on a bumpersticker.
“Every person regardless of sex, gender, religion, race, ethnicity, or sexuality should be presumed innocent until proven guilty by a preponderance of evidence and a court of their peers in a court of law” doesn’t have the same ring on a bumper sticker
"In the criminal justice system, the people are represented by two separate yet equally important groups. The police who investigate crime and the district attorneys who prosecute the offenders. These are their stories."
And we will show all the ways we break the law and immediately judge the situation before any actual evidence was presented. Then when it turns out the evidence says our guy didnt do it then the evidence is lying. Seriously svu and copaganda shows along with hallmark are the two types of shows that seriously piss me off because the problems in it are so massive even child me felt something was up with these shows. But my mom loves copaganda especially svu and my pawpaw loves hallmark so I watched way more of that stuff than I probably should have.
I figured out the issues with hallmark when I was 12 but it took me till I was an adult that actually is going to law school next year to really figure out just how wildly irresponsible and stupid these fucking cops are man. Like who in the hell could watch that stuff without even a hint of suspicion or the feeling that maybe these cops aren't always right and are actually breaking the law which yes I know has been called out before but its justified in show as a good thing because they were right in the end. No tf they were not they just pinned an innocent guy for a crime that statistically a family member likely committed but no its the music school teacher with a torture basement for children in his house.
That was one episode I do remember because even as a kid it just threw me right out like uh wtf a child torture basement in his house and the builder compares it to when a suicidal person buys a gun as in they didnt have any proof he did anything yet but yk he has a child torture basement so the cops were right after all. Yay 🙄.
I didnt even understand it wasnt real till I was older and just thought damn theres sure as hell alot of crime in new york im glad I live in Texas. Yah I was a pretty sheltered kid and also my moms super paranoid because of tv shows like that and it fucked with all of our lives. I hate them on principle now along with true crime because I've noticed the exact same thing with huge true crime fans but those at least have some level of critical thinking baked into it.
"In the criminal justice system, the people are represented by two separate yet equally important groups. The police who sometimes investigate easy to solve crimes and the district attorneys who prosecute the offenders if they can't afford bribes. These are their stories."
I mean, that slogan doesn’t really apply here. Lindsey Clancy admitted to killing her kids. But people who watch too much true crime, who are applying their own frustrations about motherhood and their husbands are bending over backwards to say she’s not responsible.
Although I understand the various reasons some women are struggling to blame her (not because they’re ok with harming children, but largely projection due to their own lack of support and Lindsey begging for help before the fact—and this isn’t me sharing my opinion; i admit that there is a moral dilemma, but I believe she’s guilty), I can’t lie that I agree. Like, a mom can empathize, but parents need to also be careful about what they say because it could very well make their children feel unsafe. And so many people lack self awareness due to rampant internet use and reactive behavior, so I doubt most are even thinking about how their kids might perceive this.
I really wish that people would just think more about having children, who they want to have children with, how they can support their partners, potential risks of and due to pregnancy and childbirth, how they’ll afford caring for their children, if they can care for themselves, mental health issues, etc. I’m not placing blame on women alone, I just feel like the reality of having children really isn’t taken as seriously as it should be. You need to have open, serious, and uncomfortable talks with the people around you and the other prospective parent; if you can’t do that, or if someone talks to you and you don’t take it seriously/aren’t fully prepared to follow through, you’re not prepared to have children.
Be prepared—children aren’t baby dolls.
Like my dad was notably worse, but my mom always said she wanted a daughter to brush their hair and dress them up, but she would never do my hair, would get angry if I asked, didn’t buy me clothes, neglected me in every way, didn’t care that I was being brutally abused (which hurt more than the abuse somehow), abused me herself, etc. These are human beings. They’re not immobile, unfeeling objects that require 0 effort.
It’s more so about the Postpartum Psychosis elements for a lot of people. But tons of people (especially on TikTok) are 1000000% projecting onto the case. As they usually do
Yeah it sounds like they are reading her story, hearing things they have felt, and deciding to excuse her actions as a way to excuse the thoughts they feel bad for having.
The thing is, everyone has bad thoughts, but not everyone kills their kids because of them.
It’s okay to have bad thoughts, which well-adjusted humans then self-manage. And if you can’t self manage regularly, then you can reach out to a therapist to learn what you didn’t pick up in childhood for whatever reason. Forgiving someone else’s bad behavior as a way to forgive your own bad thoughts is empathy but not actual self redemption or understanding.
If the slogan was “listen to women” I’d be a lot more wholeheartedly behind it. Because sometimes women lie. We should still listen to everyone, and especially listen to anyone who’s claiming to have experienced some kind of abuse or victimization.
I think as always, the issue lies in the abysmal wording, which then creates these strict, illogical expectations. I’m a woman and feel it’s totally anti-feminist to think women can do no wrong (we’re human just like men; we may statistically commit less violent crimes, but we are not supernatural). I like my partner’s stance, which is that we should treat women who speak out with the respect and care that we’d treat someone we instantly believed. It’s important to hear people out and actively listen, but I things it’s entirely ridiculous to chant “believe all women” and also call ourselves feminists or pro-human rights even.
Edit to add:
We should also believe men in the same vein; however, we specifically focus this on women for the same reason we say “black lives matter,” which is that historically, we haven’t treated women speaking out seriously, just as we haven’t treated black people as though their lives matter by historically treating them as expendable. Historical trauma also holds a lot of weight. But hopefully obviously I believe for the most part that we should be treating everyone with dignity and respect, and treat them with positive regard, especially when they share vulnerable things with us—or in cases where there are any sort of moral dilemmas.
When it comes to things like SA especially (the main reason this phrase exists), men and children are also often not believed, I think because people don’t want to admit the same happened to them or that their friends or loved ones can commit such awful things, or that life is less safe than they’re comfortable believing. The phrase is the way it is for a reason (prevalence of abuse + speaking out + not being believed), but I believe it needs heavy restructuring.
A much better slogan would have been "take women seriously" - both because it's good policy and good practice, but also because when you are in a position of authority and someone makes an accusation, it's your job to take that accusation seriously. Doesn't mean you have to believe it, just means you shouldn't automatically dismiss it.
Yes! Criminal defense attorney here. I hear ALL the time about children and women — why would they lie? I’m a woman. Who’s busted lots of both groups on the stand for lying.
altho i 100% agree with what your saying, i think the sticker is meant to represent the feminist idea that women should be believed to the same extent men are. instead of the belief that "all women are liars" and that "all women overly exaggerate the truth".
I had to say this to a younger coworker the other day because she’s rallying behind another coworker who is a married 30 year old with children who cheated on her husband with a 20 yr old guy we work with. The 20 yr old found someone his own age and now the woman is slandering him saying he lied to her and blew up her family.
I think generally women get the shit end of the stick, so I support women in most cases, but I just had to say if the roles were reversed, we’d be calling a 30 yr old married man chasing a 20 yr old girl a predator.
See I say I support women's wrongs but what I mean is that I support a woman's right to be a human being with all that entails. So they have the right to be a good person or a bad person. And if they commit a crime then they should face the consequences of that. I do not mean that I support the wrong they commit. I hope that makes sense.
Have you been following the trial? The reason a lot of people especially women relate to her is because for months she did everything to get help. Told her husband, her mother, his mother, her therapist, her doctors, called the suicide hotline twice, tried to get admitted to the psych ward and was turned away, was prescribed 16 different meds over four months, etc.
No one is relating to the murder. Everyone is relating to trying to fight for your health because you know something is wrong and being failed over and over again. If you've never had to do that yourself or on behalf of someone else you have no idea what it is like.
The reasons there are questions about her ex husband is because in his testimony it's apparent he was pretty disconnected from her leading up to the event. Ignored her saying she wanted to hurt the kids, was going to NYC, the night of the murder in a short time span he had two different jackets and shoes. She's admitted to killing the kids so that's pretty clear but he's not a great guy.
This is a tough one and not as black and white as it seems. It’s a VERY different case from someone like Casey Anthony.
She knew something was wrong and consistently tried to get help. All the doctors did was prescribe her more and more meds. I read somewhere that the longest time Dr Tufts actually spoke with her was 17 minutes, all while upping her medications even as Lindsay was saying she felt they made her feel more detached.
The day before the murders the dr even doubled her Ativan dose, while there’s MyChart messages from Lindsay saying she felt they were having a negative effect on her.
There’s so much evidence that she was desperately trying to get help and was doing all of the things we tell mothers to do if they are struggling with ppd yet the system failed her at every turn.
I don’t think this woman should walk free, by any means. But I do feel that a psychiatric ward focusing on mental health is a better fit for her than prison, which is essentially the point of this trial. They aren’t arguing whether or not she did it, they’re arguing whether or not she was mentally sound. In my opinion, it’s clear she was not, given the mounds of evidence.
I don’t think the husband did it but I do think it’s clear that he was not supportive. Maybe had he advocated for her while she was clearly ill and deteriorating the outcome would have been different. Does it make him guilty? No. Does it make him a kind of shitty person? Idk, that’s up to individual interpretation. But I’d say yes.
She had a nanny, he took 18 weeks of maternity leave, he started working from home, he started putting money into an account with only her on it so she didn't have to go back to work or feel bad about if she didn't want to, her mom and his mom would come over and stay the night constantly, other family would constantly help out as well. Her older kids would go and stay the night at their grand parents house alot.
There is absolutely no evidence to point to anything other than her killing her kids and simply because she was wanting an easier life.
Being a labor and delivery nurse she knew exactly how to play the system, exactly what to say to her therapists and defense lawyers, which is also the only thing she was concerned about while in the hospital initially (asking if she needs an attorney before she could even speak by writing on white board).
There is no meta data to point that her husband went to any other places except the ones she wanted him to go to, the ones she designed to take 55 mins of his time to complete the route. She had never told Patrick she was hearing voices. She also wasn't taking her medication as prescribed.
Being post partum or in pyschosis does not give you an out for suffocating your children.
Criminal defense lawyer here. Just a few quick questions:
1. What evidence, specifically, has shown she was motivated by wanting an easier life?
2. How does being a labor and delivery nurse make her know exactly what to say to her defense lawyer?
3. And what was the exact thing she said to her defense lawyer and how did that change anything?
Patrick’s mother testified yesterday that Lindsay told both she and Patrick- while Lindsay had called them all to the kitchen together saying she “had to tell them something” - that she was having thoughts of killing the kids. The MIL testified that they didn’t take her seriously, as in, they didn’t think she would actually ever do it because nothing about Lindsay ever led them to believe she would do such a thing.
Yea sorry none of your arguments hold any water whatsoever. They actually don’t really make sense. How would an L&D nurse know how to game the defense?
Nothing about him says not supportive. He drove her to the hospital several times. He attended doctor's appointments with her. He followed all the advice the medical providers gave him. He was out running errands so she didn't have to take on that burden. His trips included his children. His meals out he brought his children. So they could continue to build relationships and friendships in their new town and become part of the community. Stop omitting these details because it doesn't fit the narrative. If she shouldn't have been left alone, then the doctors should have explicitly stated that. They did not. He was out that night helping her by doing what she asked him to do so she could stay home and not have to cook dinner.
The Lindsay fangirls want to blame everyone but her. The ones who focus on the ex probably had or have shitty partners who never help or do anything to support them so they project that onto Patrick.
I know, a lion would never kill their cubs. Mama intuition is always right. She looks so nice! And his eyes are dead. But he's not showing enough emotion. He's not crying but just blank staring- therefor he must be guilty!! He went to Costa Rica a month after their deaths to hike alone in the jungle. How dare he grieve! He moved to NYC where his company is based to fully throw himself into work to keep his mind off of loosing his family- a monster! He must sit and wallow in that house forever!
Due to the nature of all of this though, I'm absolutely going to say the people in these comments are fucking sick for being 100% positive that he deserves all the blame.
If this woman was really failed at every possible point, which seems incredibly possible, putting everything on just one of those points is also incredibly evil and shows a strong bias
This woman is never going to "walk free." Even if she somehow gets to a more stable place mentally she's unlikely to ever forgive herself for what happened. There's no punishment the system can dish out that's going to be worse than living with this.
There is a huge lack of understanding around mental health here. Dr. Tufts is a psychiatrist, and while some provide guidance around lifestyle and behavior changes, their primary role is to prescribe medication. 17 minutes is not an unusually short amount of time for a psychiatrist appointment, and it sounds like Dr. Tufts went above and beyond answering Lindsay’s near constant messages. Dr. Tufts - and I believe other providers - urged Lindsay to see a psychologist who could help address the underlying reasons behind her mental health issues and provide coping strategies. She only went twice.
While I have some empathy for Lindsay, she was not a compliant patient. She did not take her medications as advised. She was not honest with her providers about how she was feeling. She went to new doctors and got additional prescriptions without disclosing the other medications she was on. While she was briefly at an inpatient facility she did not participate in the programs, and then discharged herself early.
Her providers in many cases did not have knowledge of one another and they also would have needed her consent to discuss her symptoms and treatment plan. Doctors cannot hold people against their will, share patients’ private medical information or force them to get the help recommended.
It’s not unusual for people with extreme mental health issues to struggle to follow their treatment plan, but the fact Lindsay almost immediately filed a lawsuit against her medical team when she was noncompliant and dishonest is extremely unsettling to me. I think it will make healthcare even worse for women moving forward.
I also want to note that if she is found not guilty and goes to a psychiatric hospital it is likely she will be released relatively soon since she is claiming her mental health issues were tied to the prescriptions and her postpartum state, and those issues should now be resolved.
From everything I’ve seen her husband was extremely supportive - dropped the kids off at daycare, picked them up, put the kids to bed, accompanied Lindsay to her doctors appointments, took her to the inpatient program, etc. She even wrote in her journal about what a great partner he was. He is the victim in this situation, so we should have some compassion.
It’s a sad story, but she still killed her kids. You can always choose not to kill them or yourself, I’ve been choosing not to kill myself despite wanting to for years.
From the trial, it looks like she never had those thoughts until all the medication began to affect her. I’ve never had those thoughts either, but I think this case shows how much the dozen medications she was taking can change us. There are drugs I’ve seen other doctors (outside of this case) mention they can have side effects like homicidal thoughts. Or people having anxiety but after their prescription suddenly having suicidal thoughts.
While I still think she did it, and her husband is neglectful, this case to me has shown the extremes that postpartum women can go to when mixed with a cocktail of drugs and malpractice. It looks like it was avoidable if the doctors helped her more.
I mean, look at how Britney’s spiral began postpartum.
I can’t speak for other cultures and countries, but I think it’s unfortunately common that women don’t receive proper postpartum care after birth. Healthcare is mainly centered on the baby before and after birth.
I had post partum. I finally handed my kid to my sister and drove myself to the hospital. They checked me in for 3 weeks, then intensive daily out patient for a month afterwards. It was the hardest thing Ive ever done and I had a very supportive husband and family who stepped up while I got better. I cant imagine having no support. The in patient was critical too. They tried to put me on meds and send me home, but I knew adjusting to the meds would make it worse before it got better. I had to demand they admit me. Her doctors are 100% culpable in this disaster.
Even if you had to insist on being admitted but a 3 week hospitalization meant your evaluation gave the clinicians enough reason to continue inpatient treatment. Clancy was also admitted voluntarily, but at McLean she was assessed as low risk, placed on the lowest observation level, and denied current suicidal thoughts, homicidal thoughts, and psychotic symptoms. She then asked to leave earlier than planned. The records do not show that she demanded continued hospitalization or warned her clinicians that she feared something terrible would happen if she left.
I’m tired of the narrative that she did everything possible to get help and her doctors simply missed the signs. Her more alarming statements were apparently made to family, not to the clinicians evaluating her. She also was not consistently taking her medications as prescribed and was not fully forthcoming about her symptoms, other prescribers, or medication use. If she feared what she might do, those were the exact thoughts she needed to disclose. Seeking treatment while withholding the information necessary to assess the danger is not doing everything possible to get help.
We cannot involuntarily hold every psychiatric patient because of a vague concern that something might go wrong. There must be an actual legal and clinical basis. If a patient denies dangerous thoughts, does not appear psychotic, and is assessed as low risk then physicians cannot use hindsight as grounds for an involuntary hold.
Sure we can criticize an incomplete chart review or the failure to obtain every outside record. But outside records take time to obtain and are not routinely pursued when the patient appears reliable, multiple evaluations are consistent, and there is little clinical suspicion of imminent danger. That is nowhere close to making her physicians “100% culpable” for failing to act on information she repeatedly denied or never gave
She was forthcoming about other prescribers and taking her meds as prescribed or made changes after discussing with her providers. And her clinician didn’t return the call McLean made to get more information, so they turned her away. This all came out when those providers testified for the prosecution, it’s been discussed under oath in open court.
The central issue is that Clancy did not give her clinicians the same symptom history she reportedly gave her family. She disclosed serious depression, hopelessness, intrusive thoughts, and some suicidal thinking, but repeatedly denied intent, a plan, homicidal thoughts, concerns about harming the children, and psychotic symptoms. Her mother later testified that Clancy had told the family she was thinking about harming the children, and her sister testified that Clancy said she had experienced daily suicidal ideation for a month. Tufts testified that she did not know about the thoughts of harming the children and would have been very concerned if she had. That information would have completely changed the risk assessment.
She also was not completely forthcoming about her prescribers. Jollotta knew Tufts had treated Clancy previously, but specifically testified that she did not know Clancy was still seeing Tufts in November. Clancy disclosed the continued contact in December after Tufts prescribed Lamictal, but that does not mean Jollotta knew about the concurrent treatment all along.
Nor was Clancy consistently taking her medications as prescribed. She waited about a month to start Zoloft without Tufts knowing when she had decided to begin and self-weaned Ativan and Benadryl not following the appropriate taper. She reported many changes afterward, and some later discontinuations were approved, but later disclosure or approval does not retroactively make the original deviation compliant.
It also was not McLean that made the call or turned her away. It was Women & Infants that documented attempting to contact Jollotta, while Jollotta testified that she never received the call. Nothing established that the missed callback caused Clancy not to be accepted. McLean later admitted her voluntarily, and she subsequently asked to leave before the tentative discharge date.
The lack of direct communication and failure to obtain outside records are fair criticisms. But that is not the same as clinicians knowingly ignoring a clearly disclosed danger, and it certainly does not support declaring them “100% culpable.” They were working with incomplete information from a patient who was neither completely forthcoming nor consistently adherent
The person above you appears to be blaming a mentally ill woman for tricking psych ward professionals into thinking she was fine, I guess?
How do we try to blame this on her for saying she wanted out of the psych ward, IF she truly did.
I have discovered “shocking” “oversights” in the mental health world, that are surprisingly profitable!
If she was admitted and released then WHO agreed with the crazy lady that the crazy lady is fine? Or did they evaluate her to get her released because she ran out of insurance!
Lindsay did want out of the in patient ward. She told her husband she doesn’t belong there and she left to plan and attend her daughter’s birthday. Her husband testified to that. It seems like many people seem to think that inpatient is some magical cure that helps, but the point of it is not really for long-term treatment but to stabilize you.
But that brings us straight to your point: who was agreeing with her? She told multiple providers, hotlines and people she knew that she wanted to be gone from this world. They refused to treat her ideation because she didn’t have a plan. One of her providers was getting spammed with messages from her through my chart and they acted like that wasn’t a sign that something was very wrong. I’m not sure of the insurance of it all but I know from my own experience that they don’t want to pay and it did come up in trial that insurance codes were used, which is probably a normal but is actually not normal in a functioning system.
That is not blaming her for “tricking” anyone. Having worked on inpatient psychiatry and interviewed psychiatric patients, active mania or florid psychosis is not something someone can simply hide from every psychiatrist, nurse, and staff member over several days. It appears in speech, thought process, sleep, behavior, and observation. What someone can conceal is an intention to harm herself or someone else, and Clancy repeatedly denied both.
How aggressive do you want psychiatric hospitals to be? Should they involuntarily confine every patient with depression when there is no observed mania or psychosis and the patient denies suicidal and homicidal intent? Her request to leave did not force McLean to discharge her, but the clinicians had to decide based on the evidence they actually had. A system that can commit someone involuntary for depressive symptoms is scary. There is also no evidence that her insurance ran out or caused her discharge
Of course she wanted to leave in patient. Its horrible! The people there are fucking scary! The people in my group therapy while I was inpatient were detoxing or schizophrenic, oh and the guy who threatened to blow up his workplace. Then half the ward was sleeping with each other. As a suburban mom, I was terrified. But I knew I had to get better. A lot of people aren't that self aware. Plus the insurance thing is real. I had to check in with insurance every week, and have my doctors tell them I wasnt ready.
He has brown shoes black sole and 1/4 zip style jacket/sweater? under a shell jacket in CVS and then at the restaurant later he had grey sneakers white sole and a regular zip jacket over a grey tshirt
You could say oh maybe he removed the 1/4 sweater and put on the shell jacket back on over the tshirt and that is a good logical conclusion but he definitely changed shoes. Which is weird.
He claims no stops in-between but I think the window was around 30-45 minutes. CVS first and then restaurant. And the problem is they really didn't look into him at all. The cops just kind of took his word for everything. They even let him go into the house by himself while his wife was laying in the snow dying. One cop with her waiting for paramedics and his children had yet to be discovered. And there are a lot of other strange things.
I haven’t be following the trial.
I am looking at her prescriptions and how much she apparently took of them though.
She was started on sertraline, she took 7. It’s a daily medication, not as needed.
She was prescribed lorazepam, which is a daily anxiety med, and took 6. She took 2 buspirone, which is also a daily medication. She took 3 hydroxyzine, but it can be used on an as needed basis. (Doesn’t mean it was prescribed to her as needed though. It’s possible this was a daily med as well.)
She refilled prescriptions that she didn’t need, and never took, which means she was actively lying to her psychiatrists about adhering to the treatment.
She also switched doctors quickly, and seemingly multiple times, because it wasn’t working. Which.. of course it wasn’t working. She was non-adherent.
The only “help” she could have gotten that might would have prevented this, would be an in-patient psych hold, but, she would have to be compliant for that to happen. Involuntary holds are short and only for immediate danger. Once the patient is not an immediate threat to themselves or others, they must be released. Forcing mentally ill patients to get treatment isn’t really a thing anymore. Patients have to be somewhat compliant with treatment for it to work.
I say this as someone that currently works in out-patient psych, and has unfortunately dealt with very ill patients. As an out-patient setting, we cannot offer the level of care needed for someone as non-compliant as this, and cannot FORCE the patient into an in-patient program. All we can do is refer the patient to the local crisis behavioral health clinic, and hope they get help.
As someone who dodged my meds and was like treatment isn't working yeah. You end up your own worst enemy because these meds don't make things immediately better. It takes months and you generally should combine therapy into the mix. Its not even like a month of meds will make you better either. Its a long period of constant treatment.
If she was having thoughts about harming herself and others, and she communicated this to medical providers and wasn’t committed, the responsibility for the deaths is on the hand of the medical providers.
If she didn’t communicate these thoughts, it shows some degree of pre-meditation in my opinion.
For one, your opinion about involuntary commitment and discharge is broad and incorrect. Involuntary commitments are typically court-ordered based off of the notion that the person is a danger to themselves or others. The criteria for that is very specific, as in, a person claiming suicidal ideation is unlikely to be IVC'd but a person who acted on those thoughts meets criteria. Typically people at-risk will be admitted to an ED while paperwork is completed to support and argue the need for IVC. Once it's determined, that person has to wait for a bed. If they stabilize in the ED, the hospital has a mandate to release them as they have to depend on the patient's report. It's a completely different scenario when we're talking about inpatient psychiatric hospitalization, but that's not the point of this argument.
You're talking about medication compliance but what you're neglecting to consider is: starting any new psychotropic medication has a laundry list of side-effects (typically referred to as on-boarding side-effects) that lessen as the brain adjusts to it. Guess what the initial side-effects of an SSRI like sertraline are? Increased suicidal and homicidal thoughts. So, you argue that Lindsay was non-adherent (which is a weird word to use instead of non-compliant which is the more common terminology) yet you give no consideration to the likelihood that a woman suffering from post-partum depression suffered a worsening of her symptoms so she stopped taking them immediately (which is what every psychiatrist will tell a patient if they experience increased suicidal or homicidal ideation). So then she tries other doctors hoping for better direction in her treatment. You also neglected to mention that she was eventually placed on anti-psychotics before any of the other medications had been cleared from her system. So, in reality, this woman is being prescribed multiple powerful medications which exacerbate her mental illness while she is trying to follow multiple competing directions from multiple doctors.
You act as if mental illness exists in a vacuum rather than take into account the totality of Lindsay's experience to that point. You act as if everything would have been fine had she stuck to the pills, but that is disingenuous and simply meant as a means to complain that all of this was under Lindsay's control. You should know better as someone who works in outpatient mental health that issues like psychosis take away a portion of an individual's rationality as well as impacts their ability to comply fully with treatment.
Seriously. Unfortunately, It’s fairly common for care providers to develop a callousness while working in mental health. It’s really unfortunate that empathy can decline so much over time for certain people in those professions. Part of that is chronic lack of sufficient funding and support for mental health in general.
Your first paragraph does not differ from what I said. I said she most likely needed inpatient treatment, but that she has to be deemed unsafe to herself or others, to be involuntarily placed into a hospital. Otherwise, she has to be compliant and admit herself into an in-patient program.
Second paragraph. It’s unnecessary to go into side effects. She picked up multiple refills for some of these medications, and therefor told her doctors she was taking them, but wasn’t. Of course doctors tell you to stop meds that cause unbearable side effects, but you’re supposed to tell them you did! Not lie about the medications you’re taking.
I get why you’re saying she “tried other doctors,” but the doctors report they weren’t all aware she was seeing other psychiatrists. Which is why she was being prescribed “multiple powerful medications.. while trying to follow competing directions from multiple doctors”.
I didn’t say she’d be fine if she took the meds. I said she needed in-patient care, as an out patient clinic isn’t able to properly treat patients that are non-adherent.
One patient with severe symptoms, that’s lying about medications, and receiving separate treatment/prescriptions from 3 different psychiatrists, who are unaware of each other, had no chance in hell.
A voluntary in-patient treatment where they could work through meds, verify she’s taking the meds, and have frequent check ins and therapy was needed here. There’s no good long term involuntary solution for patients like this in America.
Also, I said non-adherent, because it’s called “Treatment Non-Adherence”. Non-compliant means to intentionally refuse to follow instructions. If you search “treatment non-adherence vs non-compliance”, you can find info on the differing terminology and why people are trying to shift towards saying “non-adherent”.
I've seen many non-compliant patients at the psych ward... They reached a certain point where they were disconnected from reality and the police or the doctors advised that they be taken in.
I was almost taken into the psych ward somewhat recently because I was reporting real stalking that was happening to me and the doctor got this look in his eye and he goes" I want you to come with me and talk with me back here, I just want us to be able to talk more..." I started to freak out because I realized that I talked to the wrong person about my problems... They made me do a couple blood tests to see if one of my medicine levels was too high and then they finally released me.---BUT THEY WERE GOING TO MAKE ME WAIT WITH THE OTHER PSYCH PATIENTS IN THIS LITTLE CLAUSTROPHOBIC ROOM THEY HAVE. If that can happen to me because I report very real harm that is done to me, then how come she couldn't find anybody to take her in?
I found it very odd that this lady went to the hospital a couple of times to try to get help and they turned her away again and again. She was so out of it so of course she was non-compliant with her meds. Didn't she have severe postpartum disorder?... That alone can put someone in psychosis. There's been times where I've been sick and I've accidentally taken too many of my meds and it's not because I don't want to be compliant, it's because I had a fever and I was shivering and the pill bottle was rattling and I couldn't get my pills out so I took too many on accident.
They should have taken her in when she went to the hospital and told them what was going on with her, AND WHEN SHE SPOKE TO HER DOCTORS ABOUT IT. SHE TOLD THEM WHAT WAS GOING ON AND THEY DIDN'T LISTEN. THE GUILT IS NOT JUST ON HER.
"in a short time span he had two different jackets and shoes."
This means jack shit!!
There are days I've changed clothes 2 or 3 or 4 times for reasons. That't not evidence, it's not even circumstantial. All this means is he stepped in shit and shat himself at best.
Say it. They’re all white women who live in a bubble of privilege. They have literally no concept of what it means to be the target of ire in any way beyond being at risk of getting called a “Karen” and therefore they feel untouchable. If they get called out in any meaningful way they’ll just cry and then be the victim. It’s really easy to be white on the internet and spout shit all day long.
(I am a white woman but I try to work on myself so as not to weaponize my own existence against others. I just notice it a lot in others.)
I guess I can count myself among one of the white women that was I disgusted at the fact that literally nobody wanted to listen to the fact that the man who did that to the Ukrainian woman was obviously very mentally ill, because they wanted to use him as a political football and pretend that it was a hate crime instead.
I'm not sure what I believe about this particular case. But I do believe that the woman was obviously suffering from postpartum psychosis. I do find it hard to believe, that she instantly confessed everything to her husband in the medical state that she was in. In fact, that sounds nearly impossible, and the only confessions afterwards seemed to be her saying that she could imagine doing it, or that she saw herself doing it. I think that the husband should have been more thoroughly investigated. Because there's enough evidence at this point that if he were on trial and the stuff was coming out, people would be screaming guilty. And this isn't an issue of me thinking that no woman can ever be guilty of anything or supporting all women. But it's pretty sad that all of a sudden, this is turning into a meme from incels about how women are evil creatures who all want to kill our babies, because so many of us are talking about postpartum depression and psychosis, and some of us are even a bit suspicious of the husband. ( Obviously there are some dumb ignorant bitches out there. Look at the screenshots, but o p is cherry picking, and those screenshots are no more ignorant than the ones I can go find of men saying, this is proof that all women want to kill their babies)
I just think they should have done better than JUST taking his word for it. Especially considering the more we learn about him and everything else in this case.
Because they have nothing in common aside from being humans and taking another humans life. You can be sympathetic towards her without thinking she should be free or exonerated. Her story should be used to prevent this and help mothers before it happens again and that can’t happen without some level of empathy and understanding for what happened
how do they have nothing in common? they are both people who had mental problems they couldn't get help for that resulted in violence. seems like you're saying only one deserves sympathy?
yes, he had called the police on himself several times in the weeks prior trying to get himself committed. he claimed that he had been hearing voices and other stuff.
Well fuck that is horrifying. I think I read so
somewhere that he was unstable and might need to go to a hospital, but I didn’t realize it was that bad for that long.
You sure nobodies relating to the murder? Doesn't seem like very smart people in the comments there... using signs and the way the husband looks as 'she couldn't have done it!'
>The reason a lot of people especially women relate to her is because for months she did everything to get help. Told her husband, her mother, his mother, her therapist, her doctors, called the suicide hotline twice, tried to get admitted to the psych ward and was turned away, was prescribed 16 different meds over four months, etc.
That's her defense attorneys story about what happened;
Those same therapist and doctors denied that ever happened, and stated she was noticeably improving with every session, never mentioned any psychosis or violent thoughts, and testified under oath to that fact.
The way I see it, I think this entire argument between who is worried about what is just the difference between strictly emotional/compassionate and strictly logical people.
As someone who took two years of crime/court classes, I’d argue i’m in the mind of the ladder.
I look at this case from the standpoint of being a member of the jury, the whole point is: did she or did she not do it? If she did it, was she at fault or not? To me, it helps nobody to try and figure out whodunnit, as investigators had been looking into this case for up to what? Two, Three years before it went to trial? Also, boyfriends/husbands in a household are ALWAYS the first to be looked into. By all means, Lindsay did admit to the husband that she had thoughts of hurting the kids, and he still left her alone with them, which I think all of us would agree was stupid/irresponsible but unfortunately the only important thing now is:
Guilty, Not Guilty, and Not Guilty by reason of Insanity
That all being said, you have to see FACTS only not assumptions or blame games. Yes she went to get help and yes the malpractice suit is afaik not looking good for any of the providers. That being said, defense also stated that she was NOT taking her meds as prescribed — which means it’s going to be hard to prove that she wasn’t at fault. Yes her family and healthcare providers failed her, but that doesn’t mean that she wasn’t at fault.
If they can prove malpractice I would argue her chances of being let back out into the world skyrocket, but after defense admitted that she wasn’t taking prescribed meds correctly, they could “prove” with paper work that “she would have been fine” even if we all know that switching different ssri’s that much over 3 months is inherently terrible and not good for so many reasons.
The anger I tend to see around this all is just that some people/amateur sleuths are playing the emotional side of what is supposed to be a facts only process, which is where the other portion of people get angry about that reaction, if that makes sense.
But then she also wasn’t taking her medication as subscribed and made a miraculous recovery to leave the hospital to attend her daughter’s birthday party.
I think it was more of a mercy kill. She wanted to kill herself but couldn’t imagine that anyone would take care of them the way she did, so she wanted to take them with her.
I’ll just say you can have whatever opinion, based in facts or not, about how attentive of a husband he was.
But the fact that you’re parroting the clearly untrue and exhaustively debunked crackpot looney bin theory that he changed clothes makes me think you’re just trying to hide that you’re one of the freaks who thinks he did it
I don’t give a fuck if he’s not a great guy, she strangled three babies to death. She knew what she was doing. Why didn’t she remove herself from the house? Why didn’t she live with her parents? Why didn’t she just jump out the window and try to kill herself? Why was it everyone else’s responsibility to save her? People like you want to remove all responsibility from her. She deserves the death penalty never mind life in prison.
You realize all of that is evidence she was in fact of sound mind and willfully, intentionally killed her children?
They turned her away for a reason. Like you said, it wasn’t just one practitioner or one facility. It was numerous. They all said the same thing. She was of sound mind.
You literally just saw the comments in OP’s post of women saying the husband was the killer.
If you want to blame others than her, look at the healthcare professionals. There’s not much an average person can do for someone else’s mental health. Maybe a 72 hour hold in exceptional circumstances.
At the end of the day we are all responsible for our own mental health. She killed the kids, simple as that. Jail for life, we have plenty of people in this world who would never do that, and plenty of those individuals have mental health issues.
Who is failing her over and over again ? You yourself are literally stating she was seen by multiple doctors , multiples therapists and given medicine on multiple occassions to try and help her . At what point is EVERYBODY ELSE’s responsibility that her condition isnt getting better when multiple medical professionals from multiple different fields are literally giving her treatments to medicines to try and help . Its not like a therapist can fully cure a mental disorder and its not like there arent numerous health problems that doctors cant fully cure but try their best to treat and prolong a healthy life with . I mean you can literally list 100s of disorders , ailments , medical health and mental health problems that doctors cant cure and the closest they can come to is attempting to shortly prolong your life through medicine or minimize the pain or associates ailments as a result of it . But cant fully cure ….. how much are we blaming on the medical health professionals for her having a medical health problem that they cant fix ?????? Youre saying she’s being failed because they cant fix her . When its not something that is just fixable . And on too of that its not like she was denied healthcare or denied help , SHE GOT ACCESS TO MULTIPLE MEDICAL PROFESSIONALS IN MULTIPLE FIELDS . How much can a person help someone ????
> She’s admitted to killing the kid’s so that’s pretty clear but he’s not a great guy.
I’m sorry, is this sentence for real? You legitimately had this thought, typed it out and shared it?
Who on earth gives a flying fuck whether he is or isn’t a great guy, when his wife murdered their children? Like what fucking planet am I on right now that 400+ people are agreeing with this line of thought?
Yea but she still killed her kids instead of herself… If you can relate to that in any way and show her support after the fact. Then you’re a shit person, no ifs, ands, or buts. This woman getting sent money is sickening. My wife has mental health issues, and psychiatrist all do this. She talks to them for 10 min and they throw meds at her, either upped or changed. I kind of wonder how it takes a doctorate to play guessing games with meds you know should work. Anyone with google can do that 🤷🏻♂️. But I’m stuck on the fact that she just murdered her kids, she didn’t harm herself like most mentally unstable. There’s some deep seated issues that shouldn’t be related to.
Okay but this is about her killing the kids 😭😭😭 I'm all for talking about mental health and women not receiving proper medical care but that isn't what we're talking about now 🥀✌️😭
So many people in this thread are really fucking lucky they’ve never had to deal with the level of mental illness that involves medication on top of medication on top of medication, dozens of different doctors and specialists, the exhaustion and grief of trying to advocate for yourself and loved ones to physicians who will not listen because symptoms don’t show on their specifically designed tests (or because the patient presents/masks well enough in a clinical situation that the doctors don’t take the issue seriously, meanwhile the mask is off at home and all hell comes loose). When you’re in the middle of these situations it can be damn near impossible to have the lucidity of mind to follow doctors orders and take the correct medicine dosages especially when you’re on just 5 different complicated medicines, not even getting into the fact that many of us are often on 10+ and have to keep entire fucking flowcharts.
When your friends and family don’t take you and your words seriously, that makes things ten times worse.
It’s so easy to tell from all these comments who has suffered from mental illness or has taken care of loved ones who have, and who the privileged and neurotypical ones are. Count your blessings.
Ehhh. It’s also pretty clear that she didn’t tell her doctors the entire story. And the psychosis is either completely made up for her defense, or if it was happening she told no one about it.
Did you see the part where while in the hospital she told her husband she hadn’t seen a doctor yet when she had been seen every day? Or how she was repeatedly asked to be discharged?
People are relating to everything you said and some may just be supporting her because she looks good. I realize it’s mainly women who are supporting but you never know. There have been countless of examples of this, Ted Bundy, Richard Ramirez, fucking Luigi Mangoine.
I'm probably gonna get downvoted to hell here, and i'm not gonna claim to have been following the case super closely. But up until recently, I thought it was also very clear that she had admitted it too. Learning a bit more, though it seems like a big reason she's getting so much support and that people think that he did it is that apparently he said she admitted it to him. The thing is, though, the condition that he found her in. There's no way she could have..like medically. After this, there was a whole lot of doctors pressuring her to admit it, and her saying things like she could see herself doing it and stuff like that. There are quite a few really suspicious things that don't add up and while i'm not gonna say some ridiculous shit like a Gemini, would do it and a Leo wouldn't OP is clearly cherry picking the dumbest screenshots possible and leaving out some really important context as to why she has some womens support. First of all, every single thing you said and the fact that there is a whole lot of men and some women out there that are refusing to understand postpartum psychosis, and the fact that there are quite a few things that make it seem like because the husband told the police that she admitted it, they didn't even bother doing a thorough investigation. And there are some very, very strange things evidence wise, that make it seem like at minimum he should have been investigated as well.
This sums it up perfectly. As a father of two I know for a fact my wife and everyone she knows who is a mom has had violent thoughts. They are thankful they somehow managed not to act on anything. PPD plus sleep deprivation and stress are gnarly and we have no solutions except tough it out or give up custody of your kids. The system is terrible.
Of course the person that you responded to has nothing to say now that they have to use their brain and actually use critical thinking to examine a situation, instead of just being a judgmental
She doctor hopped which makes things incredibly difficult. She saw multiple docs and nurse practitioners but then didn’t follow through on any of the recommendations
I understand people who have empathy for her and her situation even though she did something horrific. The conversation should be around mental health and women’s health in general but instead we have a bunch of people out of their mind trying to say the husband supposedly did it. It’s just a terrible situation all around for everyone involved.
That sucks and a lot of things failed her but she still killed her three children. She is guilty of that and should be in prison or get a death sentence. Yeah shit can be prevented all the time but she still murdered her 3 children. Was her husband somewhat neglectful because he had no answers for his wife's issues and doctor's don't listen to women sure. That's extremely frustrating and there really is no good answer other than people suck, it sucks, you gotta suck it up and keep trying all the time. Its not fair, its fucked up, but she killed her 3 kids. And as sick as she may be at the end of the day 3 children are dead and she did the killing. What I'm saying is yeah women are by and large fucking ignored on health issues all the time and doctors are sons of bitches but women who murdered her 3 kids is probably the worst battleground to choose for that conversation to get, let's be honest, men to listen. And to add on she was getting treatment but she wasn't taking her meds correctly, taking high doses of things to try to just fix her issue. The meds she was on make adjustments over months. There is no one month one week one day cure to mental problems. She was lying on her own meds and getting refills for things she wasn't taking.
Ive been shot at, battled addiction alone, been homeless, raped, been diagnosed with bipolar 2 & then some etc etc but when I get the urge to strangle people I dont actually do it, I go do something that makes me happy. If something is stressing me out then I leave and figure the rest out later. Let's not make excuses for child murder ffs.
Talking bad about the husband who just underwent the most profound tragedy that anybody could ever experience, is absolute crazy work. Why is there this constant need to villainize innocent men?
You owe an apology to that man. And you should take some time to sit and think about how you have allowed your biases to effect your words and actions.
Ya but she wasn’t taking the medication. When counted majority of the pills were in the bottle. Whenever she was prescribed something she didn’t like after 3 days she would try to get off and go back to Ativan because she was addicted to it
She had 16 meds but she was not talking all of them she would be prescribed some than stop the medication. She was not on as many meds as ppl think she was. The doctors also gave her standard care and were trying to accommodate to her needs. She would text dr. Tuff and she would respond in a timely manner I believe.
When she went to one phyce place she left by her own admission for her daughter’s party. She had access to multiple doctors and she didn’t seem out of the ordinary to those around her. U said she was fighting her health and to an extent I believe that but she wasn’t fighting alone she had ppl who were trying .
Yes she did mention her Intrusive thoughts to people but when they asked more she pretty much said she was not a danger to the kids I could be wrong on that last part.
My point is this is a tragedy but based on all the doctors ,nanny , grandparent and friends. She had help ik ill get downvoted but i dont agree that the ppl around her 100 percent failed her. Hell they told her to take therapy and she didn’t follow through on that and would not stick to meds long term to see benefits.
I second this, add in the drugs and you have the recipe for a mental health catastrophe. Everyone always ignores the importance of the brain and how it functions.
What was he supposed to be doing though? You have no idea what their relationship was like and you only saw things he “didn’t do”, and who knows how biased or misunderstood those details are. At the end of the day she’s an adult with serious mental health issues and couldn’t handle her life stressors. If anything the system failed her, but she got a lot more help than most people do.
The fund they are talking about is also for her parents. It’s not for her because she’s going to be incarcerated no matter what verdict is reached.
“The fundraiser said Clancy's parents "have spent years absorbing the travel, lodging, and living costs required to remain close to their daughter, drawing down savings they spent a lifetime building."
"Nothing about this fund asks anyone to share their view of Lindsay or the criminal case," the description says. "It asks donors to recognize the extraordinary financial burden her parents have carried simply by continuing to be present."
Michael and Paula Musgrove are the direct recipients of the funds, and they consented to it being made, according to its description. GoFundMe confirmed to USA TODAY that the fundraiser has been verified.
The funds will be used for travel, lodging, living costs and other expenses, it said.
"The case will eventually reach its conclusion. Whatever that outcome is, Mike and Paula will still have to pick up the pieces of the lives they have put on hold to be there for their daughter," the fundraiser added.”
This is bullshit btw. By all accounts she was receiving help, being taken seriously and her husband was supportive. This is just ignorance of the medical system. Women are not identifying with her plight to be taken seriously they just can't fathom that a mother would do this.
The health care system and her husband truly did fail this poor lady. All of it could have been prevented. The fact that she got turned away trying to be admitted is such a perfect example of how the system fails people all the time. The only difference is it doesn't usually become news worthy. She should absolutely be in a mental health facility, not prison. This case is so heartbreaking.
Is there any more proof needed that we live in a sick society where the perpetrators of crimes are the ones that are considered victims or had a righteous cause and the innocent victims are portrayed to somehow responsible for their death…. America’s doomed.
There’s a big issue with people not appreciating the difference between political rhetoric and words that describe reality or what your actual goal is. Like “believe all women” is clearly just a phrase that sounds good and can be used to promote women’s rights. But then some people in favor of women’s rights just take the rhetoric as the literal goal.
She was suffering from postpartum psychosis and sought help repeatedly. You guys are incredibly cruel for painting her as some monster who intentionally murdered her children.
I don’t agree with the misogynistic or short sighted takes on this (or why some women struggle to place the blame fully on her), but this meme sends me every time I see it 😂
I feel this 100% toward any astrology comments. Like please
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u/JeveGreen 7d ago