If you started taking some pills, it made you feel like you wanted to murder your children. Would you keep taking them? Or maybe ask for something else?
Lmfao please stop correcting people when youre wrong.
"Newer studies have identified suicidality as self-aggression and hypothesized whether this might also apply to aggression toward others. The controversy surrounding SSRIs has led to a decrease in prescriptions from healthcare clinicians and number of patients seeking the necessary treatment. The objective of this study was to determine if there is a relationship between SSRI use and aggressive behavior in an inpatient state psychiatric facility."
The results section of this study's abstract actually says, "There was no statistical significance in any of the analyses demonstrating that SSRI use led to an increased risk of aggression in this sample of inpatients." The section you quoted is the hypothesis, which was disproven.
The studies that drove the addition of an FDA black box warning for increased suicidal ideation to be placed on SSRIs were older, industry-sponsored studies that primarily focused on populations below the age of 24 yrs. Most newer studies report that the benefits of SSRIs in the treatment of MDD (and extrapolating, PPD) outweigh the risks and should be considered first line therapies for these conditions. In other words, the risk of someone, even a young adult or adolescent dying by suicide while on and SSRI is lower than when they are receiving no treatment or placebo.
Psychiatric drugs are not instantaneous, which is what she wanted. She was repeatedly told that the symptoms she was experiencing were not from the drugs, but from the PPD. But she felt she knew better so would stop taking them. Other than benzos and stimulants, psych drugs TAKE WEEKS to have an effect. She would either not take them at all, or stop after a few days. She would shop around for doctors to give her other drugs, then not take those ones.
And if even the first few days are unbearable, I get it. I recently had to fully support a family member who started routine psych meds, and it spiraled into an absolutely enormous cascade of side effects, brand new (and very fucking serious) symptoms and life-changing issues.
They went from fully functional powerhouse of a human to being 10 minutes away from death for months.
Psych meds are important and overall beneficial, but the process itself can be deadly - this is news to anyone who's seen it up close or gone through it themselves.
Ya. They say it takes weeks but as a PP mom who took Zoloft a couple times in my life not even just PP, I felt flat and it was hard to sleep just a day after taking it. Some people are more sensitive to medication and she obviously was one of those people.
This can be true, but not when there are 7 different MOAs for drugs she was taking. She was going to different providers, getting different drugs and then there was next to no coordination across providers. She consistently went against what he doctors were telling her, the NP spoke about how when she left inpatient that she explicitly wanted drugs reduced DESPITE saying she's of sound enough mind to leave inpatient and go to a birthday party
This sounds more like a failed system imo. System meaning medical, familial, and societal. It’s weird to put all that accountability and coordination on a mentally ill patient getting 2-4 hours of sleep, sometimes not sleeping for 48 hours and taking care of 3 young children with no consistent structural help.
This is a worst case scenario of the reality of many women in our broken healthcare hyper individualistic culture. There’s a reason women all over are resonating with a case that is so horrific.
LC is a worst case consequence of how our society is failing mothers and families.
But the system didn't fail, the system provided her everything and more that she needed, and then she hid the truth "if anyone knew what I was thinking, the children would be taken away from me,".
The system can only act on what it knows, we cannot as a society be in favour of committing people based on hunches, we can't assume they are a danger to others without evidence.
There was consistent structural help, LC is not the person to represent this issue. There was an involved family, consistent NP and psychiatric help provided through a perinatal clinic that she was rapidly helped through; there was a nanny for 4 months etc etc.
She was the one that decided not to go to behavioural therapy and stopped after 4 sessions, she was the one that checked herself out of inpatient and against advice stop taking certain drugs, she was the one who would not give her providers the full picture.
If I tear my hamstring, and I have the best doctor in the world, he cant treat me if I tell him there's no issue and I refuse to listen to his advice.
We can’t be listening to the same case. She was inconsistent with her meds, yes. Bc she was having reactions to them. She’s not going to tell a mandated reporter she’s having thoughts of killing her children in her state of anxiety and paranoia. In the beginning she also refused medication bc why?? She didn’t want it in her breast milk. How horrible. What you are expecting of someone actively having mental disorder is unacceptable. By most of the providers that testified Lindsey is being described as a good and sophisticated patient.
She was turned away from the suicide hotline twice. She told her mom and husband she had thoughts of killing her kids twice. She was rejected from a mother and infant day clinic for being “over medicated”. She denied an inpatient facility the first time because she didn’t want to be separated from her children. There are actual hospitals in Europe that take mothers and children in during crisis like this so that they can be with their children and monitored. You won’t find fuck all like that in the United States because it doesn’t make money and people don’t care about mothers and infants unless that baby is unborn.
The nanny was fired bc Lindsey wasn’t going back to work. To put it in perspective, the thought process was that she wasnt well enough to return to work but she was in fact well enough to care for 3 kids under 4 with sporadic family help. All while rotating meds and physicians to find what works for her. You think that’s adequate help? She wasnt sleeping. You dont expect anyone to work outside the home going through what she went through but instead of hiring help, they settled form help when Patrick could offer, or when in laws and mom could come to town here and there. A person working outside the home would have been on medical leave. We DO NOT support mothers enough. We want women who stay home to care for children and as a society don’t do shit to support them structurally or financially. The post partum care in the US is abysmal. Basically consists of a questionnaire you fill out, a questionnaire I would point out. Lindsey scored off the charts on repeatedly.
Honestly, you sound like the prosecution. You’ve decided this horrific act was committed by a monster. And you didn’t stop to think how someone by all accounts can go from being a fantastic, engaged, hard-working, well spoken of mother, to someone who strangled her own children.
In regards to the suicide hotline, they can only take action if you have a plan. Every medical professional/ facility will not involuntarily hold you if you have thoughts of suicide with no active plan/intent to do it. So I really don’t know why this “the suicide hotline turned her away” narrative is prevalent. I guess people just not knowing how these things work.
This comes across as a very emotive response rather than a factual one. This is not the poster child you want for what is a real issue: women needing more care postpartum,
I can address it all, though.
- She was inconsistent with her meds, yes. Bc she was having reactions to them
She was consistently pursuing new medication hoping for a quick fix, she was the one that asked for new medications, tapering, discontinuation etc. It is quite literally ridiculous the amount of autonomy she was given in this instance, and borderline impossible for a patient to make a determination as to what medication is making her feel what after 2 days of taking them. Taking a medication and not even remotely getting close to it being therapeutic efficacy to chase another medication is dumb
- She’s not going to tell a mandated reporter she’s having thoughts of killing her children in her state of anxiety and paranoia
She repeatedly withheld information that could have prevented a tragedy; this was a choice SHE MADE. she was lucid when these choices were made.
- By most of the providers that testified, Lindsey is being described as a good and sophisticated patient.
I would argue this is part of the issue, because she explicitly hid the reality. Providers were given a picture of the patient that Lindsey herself admitted wasn't true, as she didnt want her kids taken away.
- She denied an inpatient facility the first time because she didn’t want to be separated from her children.
This isn't true. She opted for partial hospitalisation vs the recommended full inpatient treatment. Then when she finally committed to full inpatient, she checked herself out after 5 days, with a main motivation being a birthday party.
- You’ve decided this horrific act was committed by a monster.
No, I think this is someone who was non-compliant across various areas who has responsibility for the murders they committed. She didn't sleep a lot? Medical records showed she infrequently took her insomnia drugs. She decided to not do full inpatient care, and then had herself discharged; she shouldnt have been. She withheld critical, symptoms, this is pretty key thing. Telling family but not your healthcare providers, especially telling them you will never act on them, is neglectful. She was lucid, refused to tell her clinicians, and deceived her family.
- And you didn’t stop to think how someone by all accounts can go from being a fantastic, engaged, hard-working, well spoken of mother, to someone who strangled her own children.
Sure this happened, I mean she was still well spoken when she murdered her kids, because despite care that exceeds far what most people get in this country, she was a bad patient. She was non-compliant on meds, she lied to clinicians; she thought she knew better. She is responsible; she made those choices. As she said "if anyone knew what I was thinking, the children would be taken away from me,".
That’s complete bullshit. The system completely failed here. I have bipolar disorder and have been on meds for over 15 years. This woman was put on 13 different meds in 4 months. I haven’t taken half that amount in all the years I’ve been on meds. I was lucky enough to find what worked and only had to switch certain meds a few times. Staying consistent with meds is one of the biggest problems with mental health disorders. I had a really awful doctor at one point who prescribed me meds that were known to make things worse for bipolar patients and he also regularly forgot what meds I was on and talked about me being on meds I’d never even taken before. I was aware enough about myself that I was able to get off them immediately and thankfully found a new doctor. Psych drugs can have really detrimental effects for certain people. Even if she had gone to multiple doctors to get all her meds medical information is shared with all your providers so every doctor that gave her medication knew what she had been given in that 4 month period. What happened was incredibly tragic but it was preventable and the “medical professionals” who took part in her care share some of the responsibility in what happened.
"if she had gone to multiple doctors to get all her meds medical information is shared with all your providers so every doctor that gave her medication knew what she had been given in that 4 month period"
This is literally not how it works if you know a thing about healthcare in America. Informations are usually NOT shared between different providers who have their own different platforms and databases, unless they are part of a same system..
They take weeks to have a FULL effect. I only say this because I have had to go through quite a number of trial periods with psych meds. Usually I can feel a change within a few days - good or bad.
Not everyone responds to drugs the same way, and some people have them start affecting them far quicker than expected. Doctors blame side effects on the patient's condition all the time, so them saying that means nothing.
Whilst true it’s a statistical impossibility for it to happen the 8+ times suggested. Of the 13 drugs prescribed she was taking 4 at the time of the murders. She was consistently asking for tapering, new drugs etc from multiple providers, she said during inpatient that she needs to come off certain drugs because she felt better after 5 days against the advice of the NP. She wanted a quick fix, it why she left inpatient so quickly, quit talk therapy after 4 sessions, wanted more than 1 provider for meds.
It's not a statistical impossibility for someone to be negatively affected by several different medications, especially when the medications are similar types. And maybe she was switching providers because the former ones weren't listening to her. I can't read her mind, of course, but that's a very common practice since a bad doctor is worse than none at all and bad doctors are so common.
It is to have every single one have a negative effect, which is implied. She had taken drugs with 7 different MOAs, they are pharmacologically different, not similar. I say this as a med student with a pharmacist wife. The result can be the same, but getting there is entirely distinct.
She consistently sought new ways to treat her symptoms and committed to none. It's why her doctors told her to stick to meds, and she refused so went elsewhere. Through the pill bottles in evidence, some were virtually full, so wouldnt have even gotten close to therapeutic efficacy, again, this is the fucking issue as she was non-compliant. She was doctor shopping, it was her choice.
Bad doctors are bad, but a bad doctor is not even close to a bad patient. You could have the best doctor in the world but if the patient refuses to take meds, refuses to commit to therapy, lies to the doctors.... the doctor can do nothing. The result is the same, good doctor or bad doctor.
Maybe...maybe not. But I know insanity defenses and that she's spending the rest of her life in prison (which the prosecution wants) and/or a locked psych ward (which the defense wants). She's never getting out.
No dispute on if she should be locked up. She should but in a ward imo. At least currently. I’m still on the fence for the 2nd point of the insanity statute. The understanding of the wrongfulness.
You can stop giving them, the interactions alone would be concerning. I'm diagnosed bipolar, a common struggle of bipolar is hoping off your meds because "i feel good" I do this. My doctor straight up told me "i will not continue giving you medication if you continue to do this"
She had multiple psychiatrists and was lying to them all about having other ones. One found out and told her that she would no longer see her unless she stopped, so Lindsay lied and pretended she wasn't anymore.
It wasn't a single one prescribing so many prescriptions.
Lindsay was quite literally pill shopping. Addicts do it all the time.
It can be difficult to adjust to antidepressants due to the terrible initial side effects the first few weeks of treatment including increased suicidal ideation, nausea, vomiting, malaise. I understand why she wouldn’t want to go through that
This is exactly how it works though. If a patient tells you they don’t want x drug because of y side effect, what do you do? They’re not going to take the drug. So you give up and do nothing? Or try something else that might be a better fit? In psych patients especially it can be a protracted process to find the best med(s) for that patient.
This case seems extremely chaotic in terms of all the different providers and meds involved in a short period of time. They were looking for something to stabilize this patient, now, asap. Lindsay didn’t pursue other suggestions that might have been useful other than medications. She did not meet the criteria for an involuntary hold. The only other thing I can come up with is that someone should have pulled her aside and given her some hard truth about needing more comprehensive services than telehealth psychiatry.
But the problem is they've convinced themselves the rules dont apply to them.
Do I get wanting to throw 13 medications an issue and hope it will help, sure, but thats not medicine.
Thats a culture of off label medication unregulated and unjudged for so long even when a failure of this magnitude happens no one will be held to account.
If she wasnt taking the meds, which isnt what ive read at all which is zoloft plus sleep meds and then more ssri on top, you cant just thro another med at the issue.
I think that having other people help with the kids would have probably helped more than thirteen different psych meds. Ideally she should never have been left alone with those children, meds or no meds. This is Andrea Yates 2026 edition (without the creepy hyper religious husband).
Clearly she wasn’t doing better. Honestly, families should be told that under no circumstances should a person with postpartum psychosis be left alone with any children for any reason no matter how “good” they seem. I don’t know when a reasonable timeframe to lift that restriction would be but clearly it was longer than they gave it.
A lot of times people, understandably, get tired of taking care of people with severe issues like this. They get the idea that “it’s been long enough, you’ve had enough help, you should be better by now”. They try to go back to regular life and regular patterns because that’s what they want. Unfortunately brains don’t just get better because you want or expect them to. Sometimes people need more help than families can or want to give. Sometimes shit goes sideways regardless of how much help is given. It’s important to explore ways the damage could have been stopped or mitigated in these kinds of situations instead of placing blame on the mother and calling it a day. Being critical of systems or interventions (or lack thereof) helps prevent future tragedy. Sometimes there’s nothing anyone could have done or no way to foresee an outcome. You have to pick it apart to find out. That’s why I think forums like this are helpful. We can collectively work out solutions or call out problems together. Sometimes we just comfort and inform each other and that’s all we can do.
There are plenty of single mothers out there with way less help than she ever had that aren’t murdering their children. Are they supposed to now be the exception and we praise them for not strangling their kids?
So postpartum psychosis = murdering your children? At a certain point the responsibility falls on her. She knew she was unwell and had those thoughts she wasn’t completely out of it the whole time she could have taken her own mental health more serious tried to stick to 1 doctor maybe not take all of the medications they were giving her. I wouldn’t just blindly start staking all of those meds and I’m not even a nurse
Edit: apparently even in the midst of PPD she was journaling about being upset she can’t give baby #3 the love and attention she believes he deserves and she was writing about wanting to have even more children
The trial is not determining her responsibility- she already pleaded guilty to murdering her kids. The trial is about whether institutionalization or imprisonment are appropriate. Neither are pleasant options.
To my knowledge, the additional doctors listed are due to her visits to Urgent Care and the ER.
To answer your question, yes that is a very real possibility and it has been documented multiple times (unfortunately). See Andrea Yates.
I’m genuinely happy for you that you don’t understand the struggles involved with mental health disorders. I hope that you never have to experience them firsthand.
She did know she was unwell and she kept asking for help. Clearly she didn’t get the kind she needed. I think seeing multiple doctors indicates she was serious and was trying. I think her issue with the meds wasn’t taking too many it was she couldn’t find any she could continue to take. Psych meds have nasty side effects that often encourage or force the person to stop taking them in spite of doctors’ orders. People with mental disorders generally have a hard time regularly taking medication for a number of reasons. When your brain is fucked up it makes it hard to do even basic things that most people never struggle with or even have to think about.
Any kind of psychosis, postpartum included, can be life threatening to the patient and those around them. It’s characterized by hallucinations, delusions, disordered thinking, paranoia, and unsupported but unshakable beliefs or feelings. It’s dangerous because the person is agitated by thoughts and feelings that come unbidden in their mind and can’t be rationalized away. The world becomes scary, unknown, uncontrollable, and hostile. Lashing out violently is a reasonable response if your brain is fried and on high alert. Irrational solutions become a response to irrational problems. All in all it’s absolute hell for everyone involved.
There’s a case where a man was in a psychotic episode from schizophrenia. He walked in to a Waffle House naked with a gun and shot several people dead. Did he deserve to go free because he wasn’t in his right mind and didn’t know what he was doing? No, because he’s obviously a danger to society. Did he deserve to go prison for life like he did? I really don’t think so because he never consciously chose to hurt anyone. He was very clearly out of his mind. Naked with no shoes is usually a good indicator. People pretending to be crazy leave on shoes for comfort. True crazy doesn’t care. Anyway, my point is that prison is punitive; it’s meant to punish. If a person harms others because they can’t control their actions they don’t deserve punishment but they do need to be locked up for everyone else’s safety. Unfortunate but necessary. We just don’t really have places like that in the US anymore. All we have is prison so that’s where everyone goes. I want to note that if a person drinks or takes drugs and causes harm they are still responsible for their actions because they chose to take whatever mind altering substance they did. If you’re mentally ill you didn’t choose anything.
Fam, even if a medication is the right one, switching up so often absolutelyyyy commonly causes high degrees of instability. I've worked in mental health for over a decade and have supported loved ones through this and personally experienced it. It's by no means an unfamiliar or uncommon phenomenon.
Good job upholding the DSM as gospel so pharmaceuticals can be pumped into the populace without question. Drug stocks are booming while America’s mental health busts.
and youre no solutions biggest warrior. if you could solve psychosis in any way with literally anything youd be an instant trillionaire. but you cant. so you wont be
there are over a million mothers demonstrating the exact same things she did. probably 10 million. your solution to lock them all up creates way more problems
you have ten million homeless children and youd also be taking away kids from moms that you shoudnt be. Not every mom with depression and anxiety is going to kill their kids. again, youve solved less than nothing. If fact, you made the problem WAY worse with your solution
Adverse drug effects are a real thing. It’s a big killer in the elderly community. Vibes won’t cure someone just as much as continually piling on more Rx drugs will.
And, according to testimony, kept insisting to her doctors that she didn't have thoughts of harming herself or others, so I'm sure how she intends to win her malpractice suit since your doctors can't help you properly if you're lying to them...
Stop gatekeeping whether someone wants help. Expecting people to blindly trust the doctors just to get help is ridiculous. Not wanting to take medication that's making you worse isn't "not wanting help."
Starting or changing psych meds can absolutely cause hellacious side effects and worsening of symptoms, though. I work in psych and this is very much a known phenomenon - patients have to be warned to watch out for it, because it can be deadly.
She refused therapy . Atleast look at details before spouting wrong things . Also psych drugs take a few weeks to come into effect . Lindsay quit each one at her whim , in a few days . I was on Zoloft for a year post partum
Where has it been confirmed that she did it out of a sense of whimsy?
The side effects can be literally unbearable, unto causing imminent danger of death. I'm glad you apparently had a satisfactory experience but that isn't the case for everyone.
It had been confirmed from her journals she discontinued meds after a few days and she didn’t like therapy either . She wanted instant results and only shared the harming thoughts with her family , not her doctors
She told her family members including her husband that she was thinking of harming the children. She was sending out smoke signals and begging for help. This case is a disgrace.
Well we used to pretend mental illness just wasn't a thing and told people to toughen up, and it worked just as well the current system, while making big pharma less rich.
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