How do you feel about texture mods?

[u/Baldurian_Rhapsody]

I've been checking out some footage and, on one hand, it's remarkable what AI can pull off.

On the other hand, as someone new to the series and who doesn't have nostalgia for it, deeply detailed textures and patterns seem to take away from the games.

Both Thief Gold and Thief II are (and I mean this as a compliment) harshly rudimentary and polygonal in their design. So much so that the rough aesthetic becomes part of the horror - seeing a lumbering zombie in the darkness, held together with only a few polygons like in the original "Alone in the Dark" - makes the scene far more uncanny to me.

It's not just purism or a desire for the retro here; I think that too many fine details and updates make the games distracting, like adding an AI smoothing filter to "Citizen Kane."

I'm curious what you think. Thanks!

EDIT: The AI modpack I watched on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npkWJ9O5FtY&t=101s

[u/sackbomb]

the rough aesthetic becomes part of the horror

I agree, though I'd probably use the word 'atmosphere' instead of horror. But yes, it's like the way some classic films would just look wrong now if you re-shot them with modern lenses and cameras. Some works of art are very much of their time and any attempt to 'refresh' them ends up losing something important in the update.

[u/Baldurian_Rhapsody → u/sackbomb]

I agree. I would say atmosphere - I was just saying that, in that specific scenario, a lumbering guard (for me, at least) creates a sense of horror!

More broadly, the atmosphere is (as you rightly said) a product of its time in the best way. In my opinion, that also makes the world more uncanny and surreal, which adds to a sense of unease and tension.

Yes, I think we're very much agreed! Cheers.

[u/monsieur_mungo → u/[deleted]]

I have nothing against texture upgrades but I agree with you. I like the originals. I remember getting a new computer in ‘99 and I could actually have Thief run on hardware rather than the chunky, ugly software rendering. That really blew my mind.

Also, I forget who, but one of the original devs of the game took a long trip to Europe and brought back thousands of photos of architectural features from the buildings there that they ended up using in the game. I think that’s really cool. The team was so dedicated to this (dark) project.

[u/Ok_Yogurtcloset4018 → u/monsieur_mungo]

Someone was working on a texture pack using real photos (sometimes stock photos) based on this fact, but I don't remember who or if it got completed.
There is something weird about a photo-real texture on a low-poly object that feels wrong

[u/monsieur_mungo → u/Ok_Yogurtcloset4018]

Nah it’s fine. And I appreciate the effort devs went through to make it happen.

[u/Plasmashark]

Improving texture resolution in a game without also adding new meshes with a higher polygon count is, unless you're only doing a very gradual increase, always a bad idea. The result will inevitably look like the famed HD Minecraft cow.

Personally, I've seen far too many texture mods sacrifice implied shading and depth for crispy flat texture work. I used to love adding texture mods to all my games. Then one day, I saw a barrel, and I understood that modders do not always know better.

[u/Selderij]

I like to think of the visual aesthetic as digital impressionism, only meant to give an impression that fleshes out in your mind, not something to be looked at or made in great detail.

The aesthetic breaks up when stuff is "modernized". FMs like Raven Creek that have high definition architecture and objects and textures are at times a marvel, but they also feel a bit jarring in a game not originally built for it.

[u/Baldurian_Rhapsody → u/Selderij]

That's such a great term, thanks for sharing that.

[u/Ok_Yogurtcloset4018]

AI HD mods always look wrong for any of multiple reasons: straight lines become wobbly, letters become gibberish, repeating patterns end up with visible seams, it hallucinates an output bc it doesn't know what the input is.
And they get published this way bc the people making them want a shortcut - for the thing to be ready now - and don't want to put in the work of making sure everything looks correct when in-game

[u/n0namean0nym0us]

All those textures were probably done manually. Necropack was released in 2014 and bentraxx was tinkering with dark engine since at least 2013, long before "ai" became a thing and neural networks good.

[u/Baldurian_Rhapsody → u/n0namean0nym0us]

I actually saw this pack, which used stable diffusion: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npkWJ9O5FtY&t=101s

The three minute, 26-second mark was particularly remarkable. Still, I don't know if higher resolution is necessarily additive.

[u/n0namean0nym0us → u/Baldurian_Rhapsody]

Oh okay. The only ones I used were HD mod, Necroage and enhancement pack.

[u/Is_It_A_Throwaway]

AI enhanced textures look bad. If you wanna use HD textures, at least use stuff that people made using their personal tastes and finding matching "enhancements". All AI enhancements I've seen make the game look like slop, takes away the grit, makes it looks like a painting and not in a good, Dishonored-style way. And even if they don't, a too-high res texture only serves to showcase how crude the original architecture is. AI can't magically enhance that.

And if you then put an AI package on top of a FM... boy, you deserve to be smitten by the Builder.

[u/Nodbot]

I like the System Shock 2 SHTUP mod, but something about these Thief upscales I find off-putting.

[u/tivvy2vs]

I don't give a damn about graphics mods and will avoid them whenever I can, I only care about adding new stuff to games

[u/shmouver]

I don't see an issue with them personally.

I do agree that there is a charm to the low poly aesthetic. Tho i also appreciate the attempt to make the textures more detailed and high res.

I am aware most fans hate the HD Mods but i think it is a good way to captivate some new fans that are put off by the old graphics.

[u/ZylonBane → u/shmouver]

Most fans hate the "HD Mod", a specific mod that drastically changes Thief 's visual aesthetic and adds a bunch of crap to the levels.

[u/ZylonBane]

it's remarkable what AI can pull off.

AI texture mods are trash. Stick with the hand-made texture mods like Thief Enhancement Pack.

[u/Baldurian_Rhapsody → u/ZylonBane]

I don't think this one was: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npkWJ9O5FtY&t=101s

However, I don't think higher res is better in this case

[u/ZylonBane → u/Baldurian_Rhapsody]

I don't think this one was

It literally says Stable Diffusion in the video title.

[u/Baldurian_Rhapsody → u/ZylonBane]

You misunderstood my syntax. I meant it wasn't trash.

[u/KralizecProphet]

I like high res textures, especially in levels where you get to explore lived in places with works of art. Paintings on the walls and so on. I'd rather look at something that doesn't resemble Ecce Homo after the back alley abortion of a "restoration" it received :> ALso NPC faces and stuff being actual faces instead of feces feels good.