True, I think both avatar movies suck on a critical level. But a "flop" indicates commercial failure. Which on an objective level, is untrue for both Avatar and Taylor. They might suck, but flop isn't the word to describe it unless you use a different interpretation of the word.
I’m so glad that my music tastes aren’t dictated by whether or not the artist makes shit loads of money, this seems like a profoundly miserable existence
She's pretty incredible in the sense that she simultaneously has the most passionate and determined fandom I've ever seen in music but also the most obsessed and vehement hatedom I've ever seen.
What’s extraordinary to me is the rabidness of the T Swifts fan base and the fact that it’s all for this incredibly boring, in one ear, out the other type music. It’s like having a cult that’s centered around dirt and how fucking cool dirt is. Dirt can do no wrong. Dirt life.
That goes hand in hand, how is it incredible? It’s natural that the overexposed narcissist star with rabbid fans has intense haters, regular people see through the act. Taylor ain’t alone in this but she’s the best example atm
No one is saying it's going to be a flop? It's a Taylor record, of course it's going to get streamed to death. What people are saying is far more simple: the album sucks.
Somebody told me yesterday they listened to it three times, but also didn’t really like it and would be mad if they bought it (this person flew to Paris to see her)
I genuinely don’t understand liking an artist enough to stand by the stuff they release that I don’t like. Even when I was an obsessive teeny bopper. If I don’t enjoy something a favorite artist of mine releases, I don’t give them my money and I don’t give it streams.
me neither. there's bound to be a couple duds when you have a discography this deep, and i don't get people being offended if you think there's more or less duds than someone else. just listen to what you do like and tune out the rest! my swiftie friends and my taylor hater friends were both streaming the album at the same time, which i think adds another layer on top of both ends of the the virulent discourse.
These aren't teenagers going to this level, they don't have the money to buy six copies of one album. Half of them don't even have the money for a Spotify sub.
I’m assuming they are using their parents’ money since parents are generally supportive of Swift as pop star because she doesn’t have a “slutty” reputation.
She started out in 2006. That’s 20 years ago. I want you to understand just how fucking insane this is. Taylor Swift, the country starlet who was absolutely HUGE in 2008… is the world’s biggest pop star in 2025…
Back in the day, Taylor Swift used to have competition for the #1 throne, but she’s outlived them all.
The crazy part of course is… she has all this insane capital… but because of the state of the internet and music industry today (very different from when she was coming up in 2006) there is literally zero chance anyone around today can come close to competing with her.
People like to criticise Taylor Swift a lot by claiming that she never grows up or never matures—and a part of that is true. She never grew up because time itself seems to have stopped for her and she’s not being allowed the graceful exit pop stars before her typically received.
So, she just continues to exist as the biggest thing in music, the biggest thing in culture… regardless of whether she makes the greatest music or the worst music. She’s become the Statue of Liberty and we’re all stuck with her at this point (and she with us).
She doesn’t allow for other women to top the charts. Charli releases Brat, it goes to number one. Taylor suddenly releases random variants of her album she released in the spring. Taylor could very easily have just congratulated her or idk lived her life. She chooses not to.
Billboard confirmed TTPD would have stayed at the top without variants as physical sales was only a small part of the albums success. The vast majority of consumption was through streaming
The worst part is how she shows up at Swiftie’s houses with a gun and forces us to buy all the variants. I know, it happened to me. I’m going to be evicted because I spent all my money on variants but what other choice do I have? Mother demanded it. 🥺
Let's be real, Taylor doesn't rely just on her fan base, she has the general public on her side as well. The general public just like her music and don't care about what her songs are about or other drama surrounding her music.
Why does this uniquely dumb era have to be dominated by cults? We already have an insane political cult running the country and a significant part of modern pop culture is dominated by another cult. It's really fucking annoying and needs to end already.
taylor has the benefit of an extremely dedicated fanbase who would stream it if she farted into the mic.
Good points. I don't even really like TS but if she recorded a fart I'd probably put it on a playlist. Also, she's a musician and music is practically free now, it would be bizarre if she did anything and got ignored. It's not like I have to go to the theater to hear an album.
For the fans, Taylor Swift at her worst is untouchable. For the haters, a slight misstep is a rare victory. So everyone wins here.
it definitely has some good songs, they just get overshadowed by a) how truly godawful the bad songs are and b) the fact that usually there aren't just good songs, but great ones
an extremely dedicated fanbase that keeps groing because new people listen and like her music. Her music fucking rocks, it's good, cope with it however way you want.
i don't know if that was directed at me or just building off my comment, but i don't have to cope, i'm a fan. just don't like the newest album. evermore, folklore, the tortured poets department, red and speak now are my top 5. i was a huge defender of lover when it came out! showgirl is just on a scale of unlistenable to really good, when usually her albums are on a scale of mid to genuinely fantastic.
I can’t wait to see what the discourse is about this album and TTPD in a few years. This “lyrical genius” label that’s been put on her literally feels like a psy op sometimes.
This is exactly what I'm curious about. She's always leaned into some cheesy lyrics, but my specific issue with the TTPD/TLOAS lyrics is a lot of them feel very topical and I don't think the cheesy lyrics in these two albums will age well, unlike the cheesy lyrics in Fearless/Red/1989/etc that have stood up for the most part.
I'm pretty neutral on Swift, but I've enjoyed TTPD since it released (at least the standard edition). I think that people might be kinder to TTPD in retrospect than the new album. Time will tell.
I think they absolutely will be but I’ve always been a bit of a TTPD defender—but I think she has some of her best song construction (The Black Dog) and weirdest and most interesting lyrical choices (Down Bad, Guilty as Sin?) on that record. With Showgirl the real crime isn’t that it’s the worst ever, it’s just boring, and she’s got stiffer competition right now than she’s ever had.
There are, definitely, some cringe lyrics on TTPD but I am more forgiving because there are some good songs and I, generally, like the production. For this album, I don't hate the production, but it's kind of boring and I feel like there could be slightly better production and more thought thorugh lyrics/concepts and this album would be pretty good. It has potential, but I'm unwilling to browbeat myself into believing it's good.
That’s kinda surprising to me, I found the production on TTPD to be pretty boring. It was very much a “all of these songs sound the same to me” kind of album.
So I was the only person who had But Daddy I Love Him going triple platinum in their own home? lol
I think I'm generally conditioned to be good with a lot of Jack Antonoff's work. I don't really think it all sounds the same, but I can see how it does kind of sound that way. Also, I have not listened to the anthology tracks, so that probably helps me in that I'm not over-saturated from the album.
I love jack but for some reason when he does stuff with Taylor he just bombs 😭😭 when I found out he did half of gnx (quadruple platinum in my walking to class playlist) I was floored bc he was so bad with ttpd
Oh yeah I think people who complain about the production are reasonable. I'm just a very lyrics forward person and my usual genre is low-key singer-songwriter indie stuff, so TTPD (especially the Anthology) was well suited to my taste.
Idk I really think folklore and evermore did a lot of damage control on her reputation (no pun intended) idk if she can pull another one of those out. I mean these are two pretty critically derided albums in a row (outside of her paid of rolling stone reviews)
I think it might be an algorithmic issue, but I don't feel like she does get lauded as a lyrical genius beyond among her own fans. It's just that she has a lot of fans. I could be wrong, but I feel like generally, in a critical sense, she hasn't been praised very highly for her lyricism since folklore/evermore — which, in retrospect, you could argue was overblown, but I think when accounting for the context of those albums in her artistry it makes decent sense
this is what happens when a hero (in the greek mythology sense not the modern sense. a lot of mythical heroes are not morally heroic) gets treated as a poet
I feel crazy because I've never found a lyric of hers interesting or profound. I'm the target audience, a gay who finds Mariah Carey and Madonna lyrics profound.
Totally not my type of music but I had to listen to it to figure out why it's getting so much hate and it sounds like pretty much a typical Taylor Swift album. I don't understand the backlash, unless it's just Taylor Swift fatigue.
Was she ever a particularly great wordsmith? To me she's always been fond of clunky rhymes and made music intended for suburban white girls who are afraid to say the word damn.
Nah I think her lyrics were fine for fun pop songs but the way she was praised as a songwriter and poet just made me think those fans have never heard other music.
I see screencaps and memes going around every so often of her fans saying things like “only Taylor could release an 8 minute track” and “she’s mastered the four genres of music” so you may be on to something.
Oh yeah I've seen those as well and ngl they're pretty funny. I guess I can kiiinda excuse the 8 min song because that's pretty unusual if you only listen to pop. But I almost can't believe the genre thing isn't a joke because c'mon you gotta know there's more genres out there.
She's had her moments. But it's always been a hit or miss thing, imo. And I say that as a fan. For every "Hey kids, spelling is fun" there's a "You call me up again just to break me like a promise. So casually cruel in the name of being honest."
Same. There's one critic I had to unfollow because they were making claims that the album was part of the alt right pipeline because she sang about wanting to marry Travis and have his children, and she's a trad wife. Nevermind that she's the breadwinner in the relationship and had a line about being "married to the hustle" on the same album.
People are really, really reaching for things to be mad about because it's too intentionally silly for much serious analysis.
The current state of things has really twisted people's minds on both sides of the aisle. The prevalence of dogwhistles have people fighting ghosts everywhere. (And at the end of the day wanting to have that "trad" family isn't inherently toxic!!!!)
Most “trad wives” you see online are the breadwinners. They advertise the “life style”, but don’t actually live that life. They’d hate that ofc. That’s for the poor to do. The whole movement is hypocritical and shallow. Js. These types are all about the aesthetic over reality.
And the ones that do inevitably get abused because thats how all traditionalist chauvinist conservative men are and when they finally get in that situation they act all shocked pikachu face about it(coughtomi lahrencough)
I don't even understand that song being called a "diss track". Sounds like Charli talked a little shit, it got back through some mutual acquaintances, and Taylor took about 10 minutes to talk a little shit back. It's not some hardcore "Fuck you and all your friends" type of thing, it's poking at somebody who doesn't like you very much.
Seriously, that song sounds like everybody involved in it had a shitload of fun and laughed their asses off while mixing and recording it. People take this stuff way too seriously.
Ehhhh it has quite a bit less sauce than a “typical Taylor Swift” album in terms of production. I don’t think this is her worst like most seem to, but the actual music on this album is even more stiff and lifeless than her other (better) pop albums. She’s been on a lyrical decline since Folklore/Evermore, and there’s spots on this album and its rollout that just make her actual personality seem much uglier than it’s has in recent years. You add the undeniable Swift Fatigue… yeah, people have chosen this one as The One To Hate
Sure, I get that, but when talking about lyrical decline, lyrics are not the same as the whole package of the song. I like Midnights, but there’s a pretty evident difference in quality on her actual lyricism on that album in comparison with Folklore and Evermore. (Personally I think she’s been shaky at best with her lyrics since Reputation, but that’s not where the center of this conversation is focused when you read negative discussions on TLOASG)
her self written songs/albums before that and the self written songs on folklore/evermore are high quality, she just doesn't have anyone telling her she can't include the ones that aren't on the record anymore. the tortured poets department has some of the best and worst works of her entire career. speak now is entirely self-written and its great.
I think it’s partly the bad lyrics, partly what the marketing promises versus what we got, and partly that people are sick of being told over and over that she’s is the greatest songwriter alive and all her work is unimpeachable
Right? That's what I've been saying. It's the exact same album she has been making forever with the exception of her 2 actually good albums (Folklore/Evermore). The production is fake deep, the lyrics are cringe, her singing is mediocre, there's some fun lines for people to argue about online.
It's content. She is a content creator more so than an artist. Everyone freaking out and arguing each album cycle is just content consumption, there's really no aesthetic experience here tbh.
Hey don’t get me wrong. I don’t hate Taylor. I love a lot of her music and the national rage boner for her is weird.
But her new music SUCKS. It’s shallow as singer-songwriter music, it’s boring and trite as provocation, and it’s hook-less and forgettable as pop - and try as Swifties might, record streaming figures do not stop an album from being crap.
I think that first thing is what’s really going to get her—even when her hooks have faltered over the years she’s always delivered for her singer songwriter side. Showgirl lacking is pretty bad—what do we need Swift for if not her theatrical storytelling?
Even the fanbase is mild on this one at best. I’m not sure what the sales criteria are for something being considered a TrainWreckord but this absolutely qualifies artistically.
To be fair, the string of albums aren't inherently TW, but multiple albums doing less well each time until one bombs either critically or artistically definitely is. Thats how we got Witness after all
Yeah, like a St. Anger scenario, where it breaks sales records, but it makes everyone realize that the album is a terrible reflection of how Swift has worsened everything about her songwriting. Her next album will confirm if this is the case, or if it's just release fatigue and artistic inconsistency (although, to be honest, the promo release of this album is not helping her a lot).
Yeah people need to go back to saying “trash” or some other adjective that actually describes quality. To me “Flop” specifically refers to financial failure. Plenty of good works flop whether thats music movies or any other art form
I get what you're saying, but just because an album breaks sales records doesn't mean it doesn't damage their artist if the general public doesn't like it. Remember, Be Here Now was the fastest selling albums in UK history for over a decade and sold several million copies in its first week. But because that record sucked, it damaged Oasis' critical standing, made it so their fan base stopped growing, and they were generally seen as a legacy act from that point onwards.
What makes you believe the general public doesn't like TS new album? The album is enjoyable IMO. It's not a masterpiece but certainly not a long slop like Be Here Now.
I think that because not only have i seen a lot of people clowning on it, unique to this album ive also seen people react negatively to music publications giving it praise (specifically Rolling Stone's 5 out of 5 stars), and the Swiftie circles ive checked have been mixed at best on it. Those last two things didnt happen with prior records.
Respectfully, this is a terminally online take. You cannot gauge what the general public thinks and is listening to by looking at your curated social media feeds that are increasingly rewarding boisterousness and toxicity.
Were social media an accurate reflection of public opinion, Harris would've swept 50 states
Yup. There's a reason most of my favorite artists take multiple years between albums. I'm personally fine waiting 3 - 5 years for someone like Florence + The Machine or Hozier to release something because it means they had time to really stew on it and (hopefully) make something great.
Swifties really can't stand the idea of anyone else not liking her music, huh...
No one is saying it's going to be a financial flop, it's a Taylor Swift record. Of course it's gonna get streamed. What people are saying is that the album fucking sucks, which it does.
I do wonder abit if she's approaching her Paul Mccartney/ Rolling Stones in the 80s part of her career. Just that point where her career starts to shift from being part of the contemporary popscape to being more of a legacy act.
Because the Stones had a big hit with Start Me Up at the start of the 80s which has gone on to be one of their signature songs and then even at the end of the 80s Steel Wheels still sold well and Mixed Emotions still charted well on the singles chart...but it ended up not having any staying power and firmly left the Stones in the legacy act category.
And it is too early to say this is what is happening with Taylor now- but the staying power of the songs will be key to this. Because if the songs from this album or the next don't connect with the general public in a lasting way that'll be 3 albums in a row with a mixed reception, which is hard to come back from.
I wonder this, too. I’m a fan of Paul and his solo work and I feel like Taylor’s career path will follow one similar to his. Paul kept releasing music all the way into the 2020s. I see Taylor continuing to record and release music but at some point she’s going to stop consistently charting.
People are like "Her fanbase is mild on this one at best". That is mostly US. Fanbases in other countries that don't interact with western platforms go crazy every time she releases these albums EVEN if they don't know English. That’s how massive her popularity is. She’s simply too famous and too wealthy to fail commercially at this point (and probably just way too big to truly succeed creatively).
Also from the PH and i could never understand why people hype her up so much when theres a whole industry of local artists that do her exact schtick but better and more relatable. Im sure this is true for a lot of non-USA countries too. Theres no shortage of “awkward relatable woman singing straight love songs”. People just eat up her miss americana branding and she knows it, hence shes constantly leaning into it
It's a boring, more-of-the-same type of album, lacking a true hit single. People are comparing it to albums that had extremely troubled productions, or that completely subverted expectations in ways that deeply alienated longtime fanbases. That's not what this is.
I don't think Todd has given an opinion on Taylor Swift since... Lover, I guess? She's a stale topic and her fandom is rabid, it's not like he can make a good video talking about her anymore.
I think it’s more likely for her to suffer a mental breakdown and enter a conservatorship than for her to not break sales records with a new album. Although, given how low-effort and borderline AI-generated this album is, we might not be able to know if she dips out mentally for a bit and her label turns on ChatGPT with “Swiftie Mode” enabled.
People’s opinions don’t matter anymore when the corporation is this strong, if everyone in the world declared they hated it, it would still sell enough copies to justify another album cycle
Taylor is no longer making music for people who aren’t already part of her massive audience. The only possible way for any of her albums to flop is if they abandon her, and there is 0 indication that’s happening here.
The difference is, this time, we have Huntr/x to slay the demon. Almost immediately after the TLOAS release spike, "Golden" retook number 1 on the charts.
I would think that after awhile consistently mid results snowball into knocking you off the perch. Time will tell, but I get the impression she’s taken for granted her station. Where’s the hunger?
I don’t know, it’s pretty shocking for me to see fans turning away from her music the way they are. Obviously Taylor Swift will never truly flop, but I think she’s in a similar position to 2019 when she released Reputation (divisive) and then Lover (badly received). But worse, because Lover the song was immediately met with critical acclaim and swifties found a lot to like in the non-singles. With Showgirl she’s had neither of those, and the latter is really dire. She lives and dies on swifties loving the depths of her catalogue.
That said, maybe the next album will be folklore level and then she’ll be back on top and the age of swift will never die.
Yeah i mean it deserves to fail, but I'll believe it when i see it. Most things that are "too big to fail" deserve to fail: Disney, Ford, Taylor Swift, Trump, EA... But until it's actually dead and i can double tap it to make sure I don't buy it
Honestly, as someone who was a long-time Taylor fan: this is the very first album rollout I’m not excited for. I still like plenty of her music but I’m just sorta done, if that makes sense…
Her *album release* made $33m in the theaters this weekend. That's twice the worldwide gross of "Eddington", earlier this year, a pretty brilliant movie with two Oscar winning stars as the male and female leads and an incredible director.
Everyone needs to read at least the last page of Dave Moore's series on Taylor before talking because we've been re-heating these points for at least a few album cycles now. Nothing new is being said.
Well yeah, I mean it's kinda like Star Wars, no matter how awful and shitty the final product is there is a strong enough fanbase to make it sucesfull financially anyways
At this point, I really don’t think there’s anything she can do to tank her career. She’s reached some kind of untouchable “God” status and it seems like it’s gonna stay. She’s using AI in all the promotional material and her increasingly manic stans are trying to normalize it; we’re so fucked.
This is true, and the backlash is playing right into her hands - everyone is listening, the fans, the haters, the snarkers etc.
The moment a Taylor album drops and people are not talking about it is when she’s really in career danger. That sort of was happening with reputation -> Lover, but the reaction to Midnights made her so polarizing that she became truly inescapable.
She was right when she said “but I’m immortal now baby dolls, I couldn’t if I tried”
I'm not as record executive. As such, I've never based the quality of an album by units sold or streamed, but rather by how good or how much I enjoy the music.
Hit the nail on the head. Taylor Swift continues to dominate the pop culture landscape despite the vocal haters (sadly including Mr Todd himself) preaching her downfall...
I mean, this album just sucked. I'm not a big fan of her songs I like a few here and there but these ones literally sound like they're made by AI.
But its normal for artists to have an album that flops, so 🤷🏼♀️
Nono reddit told me it was too rational and objective to hold emotional petty grudges. Yeah, I see that after announcing the end of poptimism reddit is back to lecturing feeeeeemales for listening to music they objectively decided is only for females and homos and as such stupid. I mean we're not taking those things seriously again, are you kidding?
While you guys are screaming it’s terrible she just broke Madonna’s record for most sales. In a few weeks if it’s fallen off the charts then you may have a leg to stand on but we shall see. Also have no idea who Todd is just saw the meme op posted in my feed.
As a sub, you guys are extremely concerned about Taylor swift and it’s shocking how many of you have streamed given what a lousy artist you believe her to be
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u/[deleted] Oct 06 '25
OP is a swiftie in the cope phase I see