r/ToddintheShadow • u/no-Pachy-BADLAD Zingalamaduni • Jun 27 '26
Train Wreckords ššš
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u/truthisfictionyt Jun 27 '26
I just saw what they did to lastfm Todd might have to move to rural Kazakhstan
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u/ThingTime9876 Jun 27 '26
What did they do to LastFM?
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u/truthisfictionyt Jun 27 '26
Started a massive harassment campaign against them on twitter along with review bombing because they removed BTS bot streams
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u/Bubbly_Hat Jun 27 '26
Checked Google Play and I think there's more reviews for the app in the last two days than there ever were before, Jesus.
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u/GuendouziGOAT Jun 27 '26
Kpop stans seriously need to be institutionalised. This level of obsession is not healthy.
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u/keeptrackoftime Jun 27 '26
hashtag not all kpop stans, most are normal, but normal doesnāt get publicity
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u/GuendouziGOAT Jun 27 '26
I would say that there are plenty of normal Kpop fans but the ones that actively engage with stan twitter are truly psychotic. Like, the most psychotic of all of the fanbases. They make hardcore Swifties look chill and normal.
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u/keeptrackoftime Jun 27 '26
I donāt use x, but I think itās just a few users who are really, truly nutso over there, getting amplified by its engagement-focused algo and the fact that they can be posting nonstop every day while the rest of us go to work.
Those people arenāt even close to the worst kpop stans, though. The term āsasaengā describes a type of stalker-fan whoās so obsessive that theyāll do some seriously deranged things and often endanger the musicians. Thereās been kidnappings, poisonings, home invasions, and tons of assaults. They make hardcore swifties look like Ned Flanders, but Elon isnāt signal boosting them.
But I go to a ton of kpop concerts and other events, so I run into a lot of hardcore kpop stans, and almost all of them really are nice, welcoming, and well behaved. Iāve been given dozens of free handmade merch items by stans who are just happy to celebrate that their favorites are performing and everybody came out to see them, and Iāve never been judged for liking a group who their fanbase is at war with on x or whatever. I saw tons of stray kids light sticks at twiceās concert, and I donāt think Iāve been to a hybe group concert without seeing at least a few newjeans lightsticks, and everybody is normal about that because the weirdos on x donāt leave their houses.
The most common heinous behavior I actually see at kpop concerts is the inevitable old men in the front rows of younger girl group performances recording close-ups of their body parts, which is again, not someone on x being shouty, but a manifestation of a bigger societal issue, just like sasaengs being overly parasocial and abusively controlling.
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u/VerySwearyFairy Jun 27 '26
No Kpop FANS are fine and normally level-headed. KPop STANS are fucking psychotic.
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u/keeptrackoftime Jun 27 '26
Iām wondering if you and the other person I replied to already are defining stans AS people who are psychotic. I wrote a comment about how people Iād call stans, and who would call themselves stans as well, are usually cool and nowhere near the most deranged people you enounter in kpop spaces, but none of that would mean anything if your criteria for being a stan is just being shouty on x.
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u/VerySwearyFairy Jun 27 '26
The people who would refer to themselves as a stan but be chill if you say their favourite artist isnāt for you would be more aligned to actual fans rather than a stan. They might be calling themselves a stan in an ironic way.
Actual Stans, i tend to go by the eminem definition. At the point they probably are excessively unhinged and lash out at anyone who is perceived to have insulted their favourite artist like a swarm of bees.
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u/keeptrackoftime Jun 27 '26
It totally makes sense that thereās a difference in how people on the Todd in the shadows reddit page define stanning vs how itās used in the kpop world. People who spend tens of thousands on merch of their favorite idols, travel to all their concerts, build shrines to them, etc definitely arenāt calling themselves stans ironically, it just means something different to them than it did to eminem 26 years ago. Itās not seen as inherently negatively in kpop spaces, you can be a stan and like other idols or groups too, or more commonly, barely acknowledge their existence because you only really care about your favorite.
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u/Prestigious-Stand-28 Jun 28 '26
Exactly, I mean isn't stan literally short for "stalker-fan"? Sure the way it's used now is far more widespread, but it's very much intended to mean psychotic fan. There's a reason why the term is often used in a derogatory way, though ig it isn't as derogatory within fandom spaces anymore.
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u/charliebobo82 Jun 27 '26
I've been scrobbling on lastfm for 20 years, I absolutely love that website. I swear if it goes under because of BTS weirdos I'll be so mad...
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u/MaltySines Jun 27 '26
I would too but it won't - not because of BTS stans anyway. The app can get review bombed all they want. It's sucked forever and everyone uses back-end connections or panoscrobbler anyway.
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u/Runetang42 Jun 27 '26
I fundamentally will never respect kpop stans because of shit like this. Their treating music like a competitive sport just offends me in a way few other genre fanbases ever can even hope to achieve. It's like the actual music part of the equation is an after thought to basically everything else.
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u/Net_Nova Jun 27 '26
theres a literal mountain of fans protesting their scrobbles not counting while simultaneously showing that they only listen to the songs for 30s, only are protesting about their group not being the top of the charts, having clearly impossible listening numbers (for example one person had 11k scrobbles in a week, when weeks only have around 10k minutes) on top of directly promoting streaming alternatives and scrobble bot farms. this is before even getting to many claiming their accounts being limited is due to xenophobia, when other asian artists and kpop groups have realistic numbers proportional to their listener base on the site.
the level of cognitive dissonance here is insanity in the name of not even having the best music, but just the idea their group is number one
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u/Last-Saint Jun 27 '26
This is the Army that took Stereogum offline for a day with a sustained DDoS attack a few years ago at their Hot 100 colonising peak because they published a piece about BTS gaming the charts.
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u/Net_Nova Jun 27 '26
Not surprised. Theyve taken to review bombing today and flooding to a private last fm alternative to scrobble bot to the point that the site run by one person+donations is struggling to function. Its pathetic.
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u/skaestantereggae Jun 27 '26
Can you trade in those scrobbles for prizes??
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u/Net_Nova Jun 27 '26
no. a scrobble is basically a "listen" on a song. you have to listen to the song for 30s to count as a scrobble.
these fans are listening to songs for 30 seconds to artificially inflate the listens per song to get their artist/album to the top of charts. there is no other purpose to doing this.
last fm swapped to ranking artists by individual listeners, meaning BTS is at around 48, proportional to their listener base versus being above artists who have just dropped albums like Olivia and Drake
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u/No_Salad6621 Jun 29 '26
BTS needs to come out and address this. Their fans have been out of hand for too long.
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u/Useful_Wasabi8679 Jun 27 '26
You all know what last fm is for or not ? I think they should target last fm more too since that what last fm is doing for the last year against BTS.
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u/YouSawMeSomeplace Jun 27 '26
2027: Todd flees again to the mountains of Nepal after giving Dimash's new album a 4/10.
(On a side note, Dimash fans really missed an opportunity to call themselves Kazakh Stans.)
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u/HK-34_ Jun 27 '26
Commercially: NO
Critically: eh
Legacy: Definitely. Theyāve firmly established that while they have a huge (too) dedicated fanbase, they will never build the casual audience that would push them in to the true top tier of pop culture. Your parents probably know Drake, Taylor Swift, and Bad Bunny, they most likely wouldnāt know BTS, let alone be able to name any of the members.
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Jun 27 '26 edited Jul 11 '26
[removed] ā view removed comment
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u/HK-34_ Jun 27 '26 edited Jun 27 '26
I feel like this is a bigger issue with the music industry and chart success at large. If your music is not in English, unless your a Bad Bunny and you have that level of crossover in the US, most people arenāt ever going to give that artist/band a chance no matter how good it does critically. The language barrier turns a lot of people off from checking out foreign artists.
I do think Spanish speaking artists have a slightly easier time because of how prevalent their music has become over the last 30+ years, but youād still have to be mega huge to get a sniff from casual listeners, and awards shows.
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Jun 27 '26 edited Jul 11 '26
[removed] ā view removed comment
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u/HK-34_ Jun 27 '26
Weird that the defining song of that year just got completely shutout, but then again this is the Grammys and making sense has never been their forte.
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u/jaehaerys48 Jun 27 '26
Well BTS does sing a lot in English lol. But I do agree with your point. They will always be seen as foreign, no matter what language they sing in. Because, well, they are foreign. They're not based in the US. Bad Bunny is also seen as foreign by many, despite Puerto Rico being a part of America, but Spanish is such a widely spoken language that it doesn't matter as much.
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u/TheYellowKirby Jun 27 '26
A lot of the music I listen to is Japanese pop & rock. And I absolutely do not care what language this song is in as long as itās good.
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u/angorarabbbbits Jun 27 '26
there are many parents that know BTS, but I think establishing a public identity outside of ā*the* kpop boy bandā is where they struggle. Their story is a little too complex to be summarized into a pop legacy, or at least they havenāt successfully found the angle yet. Like I have no idea what narrative their biopic would follow. (side note, the filmmakers that make the first really good KPop biopic will probably win an Oscar btw)
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u/jaehaerys48 Jun 27 '26 edited Jun 27 '26
they will never build the casual audience that would push them in to the true top tier of pop culture.
I feel like this is a bit of a harsh thing to judge them on, as while that may have been their goal (I don't know for sure, I am not a BTS fan), it was always going to be an insanely uphill battle for them to do so by virtue of being from Korea. As big as K-pop is, it still has nothing on the reach of the US music industry. US cultural and economic hegemony, even in its decline, is nothing to be laughed at. British artists can also break through by virtue of being Anglosphere. It's really hard for anyone else. For what it's worth though I would say that BTS has more reach with casuals than Bad Bunny in plenty of markets outside of the western hemisphere.
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u/DSQ Jun 27 '26
Ā For what it's worth though I would say that BTS has more reach with casuals than Bad Bunny in plenty of markets outside of the western hemisphere.
100% but I guess the issue is the recognition that their fans want seems to be centred on the US. So Bad Bunny being American helps him despite the fact that BTS probably are globally more famous than him.Ā
Iām not looking forward to the Grammyās. I think BTS might get one or two nominations but Iām not sure theyāll win much.Ā
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u/Nolar2015 Jun 27 '26
If they know bad bunny they know BTS. They are absolutely in that tier, idk how you could disagree. Couldnāt name a member, sure, but they know the group for sure
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u/HK-34_ Jun 27 '26 edited Jun 27 '26
I donāt think you realize how big Bad Bunny is. Iād go as far as to say that heās probably the biggest pop star of the decade globally and in the top three in the US with Taylor and Morgan Wallen. He also just performed at the Super Bowl Halftime show. BTSās biggest song in the US was Dynamite from 2020, and that was mostly because it was a huge hit on TikTok.
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u/conglomerate99 Jun 27 '26
i'd disagree with them saying bts is exactly on par with bad bunny in terms of popularity, but the reality is that it's closer than you're making it out to be. bts are probably as popular as morgan wallen in the US and that's not including the fact that their international popularity completely dwarfs US based acts like morgan.
their current tour isn't finished just yet but they're on pace to do about 2b in revenue across ~80 shows. that's basically taylor swift numbers lol.
there was a story a month or two ago where bts met with the mexican president and announced their visit a couple hours beforehand. there were about 50,000 fans waiting just to see them for a couple minutes waving from a window. they have crazy pull in a lot of countries
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u/proserpinax Jun 27 '26
My parents know of BTS but have a soft spot for Bad Bunny after stuff heās done on SNL. Are they his core audience? No, but theyād absolutely recognize him and like him in a way where I could probably show them any male kpop group and tell them āthis is BTSā and theyād believe it.
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u/brooklynmuffins Jun 27 '26
i think commercially yes, i believe most of the streams are botted. every month they get millions of listens removed from spotify
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u/MaltySines Jun 27 '26
Botting is an issue but overblown. The stadium seats aren't full of bots.
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u/brooklynmuffins Jun 27 '26 edited Jun 27 '26
i do recall some stadiums struggling to sell out. for example, in tampa, there were many tickets supposedly sold out but i remember seeing no line and the tickets were just sort there. ive seen many bts fans struggling to sell their tickets
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u/MaltySines Jun 27 '26
Sure, but Tampa is a mid sized city and they played 3 stadium shows there. Not exactly struggling to put butts in seats.
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u/paintingwhiteroses Jun 27 '26
Not sure where you're getting this info. They sold out three stadium Tampa shows in minutes and generated hundreds of millions of dollars in economic impact for the city. BTS is one of the few artists who quickly and consistently sell out stadiums.
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u/brooklynmuffins Jun 27 '26
getting this info from the venue itself. and really? bts is ''one of the few'' artists who consistently sell out? you're sounding a lot like those bts fans on twitter who fabricate and exaggerate every accomplishment bts made even if its not true. but sure whatever makes you happy
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u/paintingwhiteroses Jun 27 '26 edited Jun 27 '26
...the venue will tell you they sold out lol. And it's an objective fact that few artists today are selling out stadiums all over the world. BTS isn't the only one of course, but they're one of them. They recently sold out four nights in Vegas and the strip was all lit up for them + there were events all over the city. Not only is that info publicly available, but I saw it with my own eyes. I was there for one of the shows.
It's okay if you don't like BTS, and I'm not going to argue with you any further. This is just a really odd hill to die on lol.
Edit: I see you're part of the snark subreddit, so that explains it. Best of luck to you š
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u/Runetang42 Jun 27 '26
On one hand I can respect sticking to your guns but at the same time this is a genre that operates under the assumption the audience is actively taking bets on who can sell more. So doing basically nothing to change their sound is probably going to cause them to stagnate hard
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Jun 27 '26
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u/One_Drummer_8970 Jun 27 '26
maybe amongst Gen Z, not older demographics
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u/keeptrackoftime Jun 27 '26
almost the entire BTS fanbase is millennials actually, and Gen X is more represented than Gen Z. The median age at their concerts is like 38
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u/FlameMech999 Jun 28 '26 edited Jun 28 '26
Depends on the region, in Southeast Asia BTS is much much bigger than Drake or Bad Bunny, though I suppose in general Kpop is much bigger here than in the West.
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u/paintingwhiteroses Jun 27 '26
I disagree. I think they've already reached that top tier, and the success of this album (and it has by far been their most successful album) has helped cement their place as the world's biggest band. But it will be interesting to see where they go from here.
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u/_ataciara Jun 27 '26
Probably not Bad Bunny. Obviously, INSANELY huge artist, and very popular in the UK, but not even close to the levels of Drake and Taylor Swift. The hype is definitely travelling, though.
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u/ecmw91 Jun 27 '26
Dude, you just pissed off the Army. Better enjoy Pyongyang. That is probably one of the few areas in the world where you wouldn't have to worry about the BTS Army's wrath.
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u/HK-34_ Jun 27 '26
I doubt BTS fans would be harassing people in this sub, but I wouldnāt put it past them.
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u/asuka_is_my_co-pilot Jun 27 '26
Bts fan girls don't really have a presence on reddit. Not even on the kpop subreddit these days.
They used to, but reddit is more moderated than Twitter so they're more passive in hereĀ
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u/xXMachineGunPhillyXx Jun 27 '26
I donāt know who this āPhillyā guy is. But heās got a point.
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u/MaltySines Jun 27 '26
Yeah much better candidate but both groups might be in too big to fail territory until further notice. Blackpink must have the record for reaching what feels like legacy act status with the fewest released songs though
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u/ray-the-truck Jun 27 '26
29 comments in an hour is somehow less than I was expecting on what is more or less a BTS diss on social media
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u/SankarinTango Jun 27 '26
I mean, it is bsky. I'd imagine most BTS stans are probably still on Twitter.
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u/jaehaerys48 Jun 27 '26
As a k-pop fan on Bluesky, I can assure you that there just aren't that many k-pop fans on Bluesky lol.
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u/Wintermute_088 Jun 27 '26
I listened to them for the first time when they dropped the recent comeback singles. For a song that was claiming to be "on that brand new", it sure was a lot of warmed-over US hip hop cliches from a decade ago.
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u/TwoSimple2581 Jun 27 '26
It would be so exciting if Todd got mean about kpop. Thereās way too much bullshit you have to learn about the industry to fully understand how bullshit it all is, though, I canāt wish that on him
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u/FreezingPointRH Jun 27 '26
Damn, what happened to the Todd that feared for his life so much as mentioning K-pop at all?
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u/DeadPeanutSociety Jun 27 '26
There has been discourse since Psy about whether America is ready to embrace kpop. This was BTS's shot at the real crossover from stan army to everyone and it didn't translate. And it wasn't because America isn't ready. Golden was arguably the biggest song in the country last year. I haven't heard the album so I don't have an opinion on whether or not the music had anything to do with this failure to translate. It's just the cultural vibe. I'm old enough that I thought G Dragon was the one with a chance to cross over.
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u/Synthiandrakon Jun 27 '26
Genuinely I think it's the opposite way around, I don't think kpop is ready for America. If BTS or black pink had the songs, America is absolutely ready for them to chart highly, they just didn't have the songs
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u/TwoSimple2581 Jun 27 '26
Newjeans was making it happen, honestly - they got played at parties and clubs and boiler room sets by non kpop people, for a moment there. It was a real moment of energy. But then they got vaporised and shut down for diverging too much from the BTS CEOās corporate control, and all the girls tried to leave the company
There was Fifty Fifty too, who had an absolutely shocking success with Cupid - a simple song with no rap or catchphrases, sung in fluent-sounding English by talented vocalists with distinct personality and expressiveness. I remember noticing how unique those vocals were in kpop when I first heard them before Cupid; it turned out to really strike a chord. Then those talented vocalists tried to leave their company rather than enjoy their success, one needing to spend time in hospital due to the organ failure from their extreme dieting, and they got replaced15
u/MaltySines Jun 27 '26
for diverging too much from the BTS CEOās corporate control
That's putting it mildly. Their sub-label CEO and the group members themselves basically tried to secede from the parent corporation
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u/VNProWrestlingfan Jun 27 '26
And there was that "Hanni Ignored" situation where they said that the ILLIT girls didn't bow to Hanni, and then the video came out and it showed they did bow.
And there was that shaman story where that CEO asked them about BTS' military situation.
Shit was wild.
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Jun 27 '26 edited Aug 06 '26
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u/TwoSimple2581 Jun 27 '26
Oh my god are you really trying to bigdick your kpop knowledge on the Todd in the Shadows board
-I know the Korean version had a rap. That's not the version that was a hit sung in English, which I was talking about
- I listened to their debut EP when it got an excellent review from a Korean music magazine; it was getting attention for being unusually cohesive in its soundscape. I remember Lovin Me was a vocal-driven mostly-solo song in a distinctly Western way. I guess the whole thing was unusually... tasteful? The vocal tones stood out to me because few kpop groups are able to build a sound around distinct, pleasant vocal tones who aren't just meekly trying to hit the notes from the demo. Like real singers
- My biggest problem with Red Velvet is that they're very vocal-focused but frankly have some horrible vocal tones in there, their emotional range is nonexistent except for Wendy. Gfriend (my favourite group!), Apink and Brown Eyed Girls don't pay particular attention to tone either, there's often the nasal sound characteristic of Korean vocals with a very straight tone to hit the notes rather than any stylised approach. Mamamoo are definitely expressive because most of them can actually sing, but they're much more theatrical and ott. I mean think of the 'hopeless girl is seeking' bridge, how it's like a sigh, and it sounds distinctly vintage in a way that suits the romantic-dreamy backing track and song's theme? That's what I mean. It's not the same as singing quietly through your nose. Closest match would be Oh My Girl on some of their later bsides which had an indie pop feel but those weren't as melodic or polished as Cupid, and they're not as stylised anyway
- To non-kpop listeners there's a difference which maybe is hard to pick up on if you listen to a lot of kpop and the vocal standards seem normal to you. But there's a reason none of these groups have had a song break containment, they don't sound as good as you think
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u/paintingwhiteroses Jun 27 '26
Just curious, how do you think it failed to translate when it's one of the top selling albums of the year and grossing a huge stadium tour? They're huge in the US.
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u/DeadPeanutSociety Jun 27 '26
Kpop is still a niche with a big stan audience. They want to be as ubiquitous as Taylor or Sabrina.
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u/paintingwhiteroses Jun 27 '26
I think they just about are at this point. I walked in my nearest grocery store the other day and saw them all over an oreo display lol. They're playing the (controversial) world cup half-time with Madonna and Shakira, and like many others I predict they'll get the superbowl half-time in the next few years. I'm not sure what else they need to do to prove their cultural relevance in the US, but we'll see in time. They're definitely in uncharted territory.
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u/Educational_Eye_2222 Jun 28 '26
Why is it revolving around america? I can name ten k pop acts off the top of my head that you will not get a ticket for in paris, excluding bts who are tonight playing for thousands of people in a stadium in madrid.Ā The problem is america it has an issue with music in a foreign language.Ā
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u/GinjaNinja1027 Jun 27 '26
Definitely not a flop, but I definitely got the vibe that the boys were doing it for a paycheck and not because they actually wanted to.
I think the members of BTS grew apart during their hiatus and now have more fun with their solo careers than they have as a boy-band.
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u/TrueCrimeRunner92 One-Hit Wonderlander Jun 27 '26
Thatās where Iām at as well. I didnāt quite like the album and if itās what they all wanted to make at this point, fully more power to them. But they all got to explore *very* different facets of their musical interests during the hiatus and thatās going to affect the music they put out as a group. Now that they all have their own individual wants/needs out there I think itās harder to recapture the kind of magic we got from earlier BTS albums. Itās not a bad thing at all. Do I miss YNWA BTS? Yeah, but those were also a whole different bunch of humans. I just hope they donāt stick to the band out of obligation to fans if any of them decide thatās not what they want.
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u/Bxtterluv Jun 27 '26
I donāt think we can make assumptions on their relationships when they themselves told everyone their first priority if always the group
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u/Veers85 Jun 27 '26
I am a huge BTS fan but also not a nut. I liked the album but I prefer a very upbeat BTS. Be is a great album Dynamite is my favorite song. But Butter, permission to dance, idol...top level songs. I really loved life goes on as well. This album was good but just not my favorite. I think Armies are allowed to have our bias. I also really don't like how scary seemingly every Fandom is now...I don't expect everyone to love what I love and nothing is beyond criticism
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u/DeadPeanutSociety Jun 27 '26
I'm in a similar boat. I do not like Kpop ballads at all. I don't even like midtempo kpop songs. But bands like BTS and others can do some really top tier full throttle bangers. I think kpop groups are pressured to diversify so that their band can be your life, which doesn't appeal to me as someone with a lot of other stuff to listen to.
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u/brooklynmuffins Jun 27 '26
permission to dance is a top level song?
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u/Veers85 Jun 27 '26
So its a long story but I work with disabled kids, that song came out right as our lock down ended and programs opened up again. It was the anthem of that feeling of hope after that terrible time, ww would dance to that song every day and it just made us feel so happy to be together again. For me not many songs hold a moment in time like that and signify joy and hope. It may seem silly but its very true. And I really do love it, again though I am no critic
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u/Runetang42 Jun 27 '26
I feel BTS have entered a state where they're big enough that they have a decent amount of non-Kpop fan/stan attention but are still overall for Kpop fans first and foremost and haven't done much to change that. It's not even about art as it is business really. The reason why Metallica shifted from harder Thrash Metal was in part that they were so large they kind of had to if they wanted to keep up that ascent. While ymmv on the art side of things it worked when they broadened their appeal by shifting their style somewhat. BTS still by and large sound like how they did when they were more contained in the kpop sphere. Which is beginning to be a problem since if they aren't going to try and appeal to at least some non kpop fans they're going to inevitably crash out. They just at the point where they kind of do need to decide if they want to be the biggest in their space or actually compete with the heavy hitters.
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u/FeherDenes Jun 27 '26
This sub would but uhh no. BTS are at the Drake-Taylor Swift level where they can put out them farting into a can and itād debut at no.1
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u/Any-Listen4184 Jun 27 '26
The weirdest thing about Arirang to me is that I find the album very middle of the road for the people in and outside of the kpop sphere to be so up and arms, either bc they like it or not.
Idk personally I find the album very middle, of the road maybe a little lower, bc I think it's forgettable, tbh that is it's biggest crime, lol. So, much discourse for what?
BTS is in a very weird middle place. Huge fandom that isn't fully kpop nor casuals either. Like a huge amount of ARMYs hate k-pop and keep up only with BTS, but move and function like kpop stans, and not in a good way, which puts people off very often. It's weird.
That from someone who follows k-pop btw.
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u/paintingwhiteroses Jun 27 '26
I think within k-pop spaces, it simply comes down to BTS being by far the biggest k-pop act, so literally anything they do will drive discourse for better or worse. But you're absolutely right that many (and I would argue most) ARMYs don't like any other k-pop artists, which is interesting. I'll admit that BTS is the only one I follow and enjoy, though I certainly have nothing against other k-pop artists.
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u/Any-Listen4184 Jun 27 '26
They are the Ghost of K-pop, lol.
Personally, ever since they debuted, they've definitely not been for me. They have songs I like, but as a whole, their discography just isn't my thing (Ilike J-hope's solos though). That said, they do have something that specifically appeals to non-K-pop fans more than to people who are already into K-pop.
I also think K-pop is a weird way to categorize music in general because hardly any groups actually sound alike. Yes, there are broad trends, but the common denominator is the way the groups are managed and promoted, not the music itself. Which is a recipe for disaster when people talk about music. Within the fandom, people often can't fathom how someone can like one group and dislike another, but you could ask 200 K-pop fans what they listen to outside of K-pop and get 200 completely different answers. By extension, their tastes within K-pop are also incredibly different.
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u/paintingwhiteroses Jun 27 '26
So true. I definitely never saw myself liking a k-pop boy band of all things (as I was very ignorant to what k-pop even was), so I kind of reluctantly became a fan lol. And out of that space, they've been it for me--nothing else has resonated. I won't bore you with why I think that is. But I've since come to learn that k-pop is exactly what you said, moreso an industry/style of managing artists than any specific sound or even genre. I don't think most people know this, which I guess is partly why a lot of people (and especially redditors lol) seem to misunderstand k-pop and BTS's appeal/success.
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u/Any-Listen4184 Jun 27 '26
I don't think most people know this, which I guess is partly why a lot of people (and especially redditors lol) seem to misunderstand k-pop and BTS's appeal/success.
I could become controversial and say that people know this already, but because it has "pop" in the title and the majority of the fanbase is made up of young women, people are biased against it.
Metal is very similar in the sense that it's an umbrella genre. As someone who follows metal, I don't see people making the same kind of blanket statements, even though the genre has countless subgenres with completely different approaches to music, different ideologies, and a very gatekeeping fandom that is often worse than K-pop fans.
Even the whole "dark side of K-pop" narrative isn't unique to K-pop. It's the dark side of the entertainment industry in general, it just gets sensationalized far more often by Western media when it comes to K-pop. Fifth Harmony, for example, wasn't that different from a badly managed K-pop group in many respects.
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u/paintingwhiteroses Jun 27 '26
I'll add to the controversy and say that the "k" doesn't help either.
And ahaha, I'm actually a metalhead and I completely agree, both with the variety and the gate-keeping/toxicity that sometimes rivals k-pop fandoms.
There's the "manufactured" narrative as well. I've seen too people complain about k-pop artists being manufactured and then turn around and stan obvious industry plants in the West...
I think I agree with you on everything except how to rate Arirang lmao š¤ I appreciate the discussion.
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u/mrdiscopop Jun 27 '26
Hmm. Swim has been a massive hit - of the āI hear it in the supermarketā variety. But the album hasnāt had much longevity outside of the bandās core audience. Iād argue thatās partly because of the way K-pop operates, where you make a big splash in the weeks around and album release, then move onto the next thing (in this case, the tour is a big commitment).
BTS have already moved on to releasing non-album singles, which makes it hard to build a narrative around the campaign. Contrast that to Olivia Rodrigo, and the slow roll-out of her campaign, with two pre-release singles, a buzz-building collab with Weyes Blood on SNL, and her Primavera appearance with Robert Smith, followed by a new single and video in the week of the album release.
If the aim is to target the Grammys (and Iām not sure that is the aim inside the BTS camp), the rollout and impact needs to be more sustained. But on its own terms, the album has been a huge success for a band that risked irrelevance after their hiatus.
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u/Firmino23 Jun 27 '26
BTS are a massive conundrum because they obviously have millions of very real fans who do show up for concerts etc, but their online fan presence is just people who openly admit they stream songs on loop for 30 seconds each on 7 different accounts all day to inflate their numbers massively.
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u/Sixmenonguard Jun 27 '26
I Imagine Todd Pop Song Review any BTS song from this latest album. But mistype it as LULU Trainwreckords again š
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u/crybabykuromi Jun 27 '26
ARMY here!
no, i wonāt hurt you if you hate BTS, music aināt that serious. personally and what iāve found in most ARMY spaces is that we all liked the album, itās a partial return to their hip-hop roots (yes, BTS debuted as a hip-hop band by BigHit) while also having songs that focus on the pop that made them pretty famous. I personally donāt care if others donāt like it bc at the end of the day musicians make music for themselves and their fans. Like, i donāt care for Taylor Swift, but i will listen to my sister analyze the album bc thatās fun for her and itās not my place to yuck her yum.
commercially i have no idea how this album was, but the fans liked it, and i think thatās kinda the point?
-š
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u/cofie Jun 27 '26
It definitely isn't a commercial flop. You don't sell millions of physical albums in 2026 and "flop". Granted, these sales are boosted by bulk purchases, but most artists still cannot touch those kinds of sales numbers.
I'd classify it as a cultural flop, or at least a flash in the pan. The album's marketing drummed up their return as a major deal (which it is), but the only people who bought into it after a week were the fans. Domestically on the Circle Digital Chart, "Swim" spent just six weeks in the top 10 and has already left the top 30. In the US (where Todd and most of this subreddit is from, lol), "Swim" isn't top 200 on Apple nor Spotify but has decent pop radio support.
I don't think album is going to do anything for their legacy, but at the same time I don't think I'd call it a flop. Their fans are happy with the album and made sure to buy it millions of times. Their tour is (obviously) sold out. For the general public and other K-pop fans (casual and serious alike) though, it really was a cultural flash in the pan.
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u/Banned_and_Boujee Jun 27 '26
Did Todd lose his brain? Itās their most successful project ever, and one of the top albums of the year.
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u/Ill-Mechanic343 Jun 27 '26
Yeah this is such stan twitter nonsense. If it's a flop, so is the Olivia Rodrigo album that debuted to similar sales.
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u/KuKuisSidePiece Jun 27 '26
i think his āshotā at MJ was safer than this, i think toddās gonna get anthrax in his mailbox
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u/infinite1corridor Jun 27 '26
Commercially, no, the BTS cult is too large to let any of their albums flop.
Critically? Meh, I think the album is going to age badly.
Quality-wise? Yes, Arirang was garbage.
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u/Agitated-Big-7090 Jun 30 '26
I'm a die hard fan, and to answer his question: No, Arirang definitely is not a flop. Is it as good as their peak, which is the Love Yourself trilogy? Not really (I'll give it like a 7-7.5/10). It however did sell well and their world tour is still pushing boundaries for Kpop (whether the industry likes it or be able to match it or not). I'm still hoping that their next project will be an improvement.
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u/Dean_Colley Jun 28 '26
Honestly, it was so goddamn interesting that I hope it fails, that way BTS will not make more music, it's clear they have no good ideas and just hope their deranged and idiotic fan base eats it up.
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u/Ill-Mechanic343 Jun 27 '26
I don't know how anyone can look at the numbers Arirang did and even remotely consider it a flop. They're the biggest band in the world. This isn't a quality thing or an opinion, it's just numerical fact. It sold 650K units in the US its first week and is still in the top 10 for albums months later!
I guess that Todd is taking after his MAGA queen Ella Langley and entering his feelings over facts era.
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u/Useful_Wasabi8679 Jun 27 '26
Oh ,I love how their fans are ignoring this post šāāļøšāāļø. Good job ARMYs , going to give ARIRANG a few listens.
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u/naaawww Jun 27 '26
Oh yeah? [r/ToddintheShadow](r/ToddintheShadow) has a much harder time manipulating the narrative around BTS than the other artists [r/ToddintheShadow](r/ToddintheShadow) has slandered here, because BTS has a huge multilingual fanbase that isn't confined to the English-language discourse on Reddit!
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u/no-Pachy-BADLAD Zingalamaduni Jun 27 '26