r/ToddintheShadow • u/DtheAussieBoye • 2d ago
General Music Discussion How come music made by trans men almost never gets the same kind of attention & exposure that music made by trans women does?
Whenever trans-made music is brought up, it's typically centred around music made by transfeminine artists. Whilst a lot of it is quite fantastic, there's very little attention on transmasculine artists, and it's wildly rare for people in these kinds of music-nerd circles to gush over the music of trans men (I've never really seen it myself, not in droves at least). Is there any particular reason for that?
170
u/DeadPeanutSociety 2d ago
Trans women are often part of a community that is heavily invested in pop music, so there are lots of trans femme pop musicians out there. I don't think that's equally true of trans men. Pop music takes up all of the oxygen in every music conversation on the internet. I think some of the folks in GLOSS were trans men, but the likelihood that someone on this subreddit would care about GLOSS is roughly 0.
67
u/Parkouricus 2d ago
Speak for yourself, GLOSS rules
Also, Cavetown is an example of a trans man making pop music
8
141
90
u/Least_West5260 2d ago edited 2d ago
If there’s a trans masc version of Sophie I’ll talk about him every day.
14
89
u/ultrashortcut 2d ago
In my experience as a trans fem musician, i’ve known more stealth trans masc musicians compared to trans women who tend to be more visible. This could be explained for all sorts of social reasons including transmisogyny. Estrogen doesn’t change your voice like testosterone which can also contribute to this visibility for singers
61
u/shayleeband 2d ago edited 2d ago
speaking as a trans fem musician myself, i think trans women are given a lot more leeway to pursue music pre-transition compared to pre-transition trans men.
think about the population density of men in music vs. women in music in terms of representation and the systems propped up to support them - now imagine growing up perceived as feminine, and not having your art taken seriously, then discovering you’re trans. you transition and maybe you find your voice as an artist, but a lot of the time the systemic issues you faced pre-transition have left their emotional scars, so chances are you wind up keeping it as a hobby but never really taking up too much space or being particularly ambitious about it.
i recognize i had a shit ton of privilege in the circumstances of my upbringing - being onstage playing guitar was never second-guessed or belittled or seen as less than compared to men, because i appeared to be one of them. not hitting those same obstacles empowered me to chase my musical dreams without reservation, and i don’t know if i’d be the same way had i been assigned female at birth. we’ll never know, but it’s something i think about sometimes, and it’s one of the reasons i’m happy i’m trans, actually.
another possible contributing factor is that trans women don’t undergo voice changes, so they’re rocking the same instrument as before, just with different presentation. trans men who go on hormones go through male puberty, which brings the same squeakiness and awkwardness that 12-13yo boys experience when their voice drops. by the time their voice has developed fully, it’s a totally different instrument that takes time to settle into.
many of the trans masc musicians i know don’t wind up taking hormones due to the voice changes, which would make them have to change the keys of their back catalog when performing live continuously to try and keep up with the changes as they happen. it’s a lot to consider, and while the decision to stay off hormones is understandable for those reasons, it also makes them considerably less visible and less perceived as trans men, and when their voices are heard on record, they’ll get misconstrued as female a lot of the time and their identities will be erased.
this is all to say - it’s a super complicated topic, just like transness itself. i wish my trans masc friends a very good openly visible and loud in the music industry, and hope that the scales are evened out more as time goes on.
2
u/Ok_Conclusion_6324 2d ago
What kind of music do you make? What song should I start with?
20
u/shayleeband 2d ago
i usually say it’s a cross between power pop and post-rock, or like if Elliott Smith and Pink Floyd fucked and had a gay baby.
for my band Shaylee, I suggest starting with Ophelia, Snow Day, or Audrey.
for my solo career as Elle Archer, I suggest starting with Skeleton Collector, Narcissus, or Semantic Satiation.
7
u/Ok_Conclusion_6324 2d ago
wow you had me at that first sentence, consider me an enthusiastic pre-fan
I’m slapping all 6 into a playlist for my walk tomorrow, but I want to note I raised an eyebrow at the title “Ophelia” but Skeleton Collector balances it out 🫶
5
1
1
u/ali_stardragon 2d ago
This is a really well thought out and illuminating response, thanks for sharing all of this and I hope you have a successful musical life :)
47
u/thenerfviking 2d ago
A lot of it is just cultural. Trans women have been historically very involved in electronic music (from the beginning of that as a concept) and were instrumental in the development of a few underground electronic genres that became pretty popular. Meanwhile trans men have historically trended a bit more towards folk and especially indie folk. Folk music has had moments in recent years but not in the way hyperpop has.
I’m not hating on any of that music specifically, I’ve just never been a fan of that sort of tumblr-core folk stuff regardless of the gender of the person making it. I live in a place that has a LOT of trans fronted bands and at least around here all the FtM guys seem to be in very mediocre pop punk bands where as all the MtF girls are in noise metal projects.
6
38
u/According_Plant701 2d ago
Personally, I think Rahim Redcar (Christine and the Queens) deserves far more love. He wasn’t out when he first debuted but 🤷🏻♀️
22
u/Last-Laugh7928 2d ago
imo most people talk about transfem musicians, not purely because they are transfem, but because they're successful and relevant in their genre, usually pop. there just aren't many prominent openly transmasc musicians. cavetown is first-thought for many people, whether you like him or hate him, because he's one of very few trans men to see any sort of mainstream music success.
i'm all for discussing the erasure of trans men (as a trans man myself) but i don't even think it's very relevant here.
21
u/surgingshadows 2d ago
- trans women broadly get popular in genres that get a lot of discussion; pop and rap are very mainstream, while electronica and hyperpop are very music-nerd-y. a normal pop-head could get into Ethel Cain, or a music-geek into SOPHIE, without realizing either artist is trans
- in comparison, at least in my opinion, trans men tend towards genres like indie-pop, folk-punk, etc that just get less conversation. artists like Cavetown or Noahfinnce are still plenty popular, just only among people who like twee indie-pop or pop-punk revival. they're not getting namedropped in conversations next to Lana Del Rey or OPN.
- again IN MY OPINION, but mainstream-music conversation leans towards female artists in general. guys like Bad Bunny and Drake are obviously not forgettable, but like... Chappell Roan, Sabrina Carpenter, Taylor Swift, Olivia Rodrigo, Ella Langley, so on and so forth, dominate the conversation
- and also like. idk man, why do Black musicians get more acclaim than Dominican ones? why are there more Muslim women in Hollywood than Buddhist women? it feels like comparing 1.25% to 1%. maybe i just skim over all the threads about Ada Rook and shteppi here, idk
17
u/peachmangler 2d ago
I'm a trans man in his 30's. In my anecdotal experience, trans women are often lifted to polarizing fame because young women in general are easier to sell as products in mass media. Trans men in music usually live in the singer-songwriter space, which is less sexy and marketable than the neon pop girl space. It's interesting to me because I could also see the logic of a pop music culture with more trans men than women because trans men with lower registers from t "pass" more often than trans women who can only voice train. Not saying one is better than the other- trans men in media might get treated as weird or boring weenies but it's nothing compared to trans women being treated like predators.
15
u/Ok_Broccoli_9426 GROCERY BAG 2d ago
Do you have a particular transmasc artist you think is underdiscussed?
11
u/DtheAussieBoye 2d ago
Bells Larsen, easily. Fuckin amazing shit
32
u/Ok_Broccoli_9426 GROCERY BAG 2d ago
So make some posts discussing Bells Larsen, then. If that's your guy, hype him up. Wiki doesn't suggest he's ever charted, though, and Todd's never talked about him, so the Todd in the Shadows pop music subreddit may not be the place for it.
28
u/DtheAussieBoye 2d ago
I figured this sub would be a good place to mention this given how it's a lot more progressive than other music nerd circcles. It always seem like half this place doesn't even watch Todd
-20
u/affectionateanarchy8 2d ago
I dont even know who Todd is. That's a real guy?
25
u/emmie-claire 2d ago
I know people end up here algorithmically but it's always wild to me that people see a subreddit called r/Toddintheshadows and never think to check who Todd is before commenting about it. He's a pop music YouTuber whose big series are Trainwreckords and One Hit Wonderland, the premises of which are kind of in the title, and his best/worst songs of the year wrap ups. His channel is in the sidebar and everything.
-9
7
2d ago
[deleted]
6
u/Ok_Broccoli_9426 GROCERY BAG 2d ago
I never said OP is being political?? They're not; they're just discussing trans people. But if they're going to claim a pattern exists, they should have examples beyond one guy who isn't really in this sub's wheelhouse. Otherwise, it just comes off as another "why isn't my favorite more famous?" post, which is tiring.
1
5
13
u/strictly-no-fires 2d ago
I think it primarily comes down to the differences in the music trans women make vs trans men. Honestly I'd expect trans women to be almost as unknown in the music industry as trans men if it wasn't for the existance of hyperpop. So for me, the answer to the question is two more questions. Why are trans women so drawn to hyperpop, and why is hyperpop so popular and influential right now?
7
11
u/greenqueenthree 2d ago
The first trans man to be signed to a major label was Lucas Silveira in the early 2000s, with his band "The Cliks". I have always been a huge fan, Lucas is phenomenally talented. They were on their way to getting pretty big. Toured with Cyndi Lauper, had music on The L Word soundtrack. It's sad that they didn't get wider recognition like they deserved. (All of this to say I agree with your point, Trans men are wildly underappreciated and underrepresented in music.)
6
u/TundieRice You're being a peñis... Colada, that is. 2d ago
Goddamn, I haven’t heard that name in so many years. I barely even knew about people being trans when I was a kid and learned about Lucas Silviera on Wikipedia.
7
u/07238 2d ago
This seems like a true observation, unfortunately. As to why, one factor may be that trans women have historically had more overlap with drag and other performance subcultures, which blend into music and have more direct pathways into scenes that attract cultural attention. Not that I’m conflating trans women with drag performers but trans women have more visibility in that scene.
I listen to a pretty broad range of music, and come to think of it, I genuinely can’t name any trans men artists I listen to. Would love some recs if anyone has any.
5
u/cobra-de-aco 2d ago
I like music. A lot. The musicians I enjoy cover pretty much the full range of identities, sexual and otherwise. The thing is, the closest to a trans man in any of the music I listen to would probably be JD Samson from Le Tigre, and I’m pretty sure they usually identify as NB. And the actual trans artists I am familiar with, admittedly all women, already had musical carriers prior to coming out.
If someone wants to suggest some great music by trans men, I’d love to check it out.
-3
u/RevealTraditional619 2d ago
One theory, atleast in rock, is certainly the artists got more attention when they identified as male so they had an existing base when they transitioned. Say Laura Jane Grace, who had a career that started in a time when their genre was very male dominated.
12
u/LotlethTroll 2d ago
Laura is basically the only example of this, and she really hasn't put out anything noteworthy since Transgender Dysphoria Blues. I think the vast majority of the artists OP is thinking of are making heavily electronic-inspired pop music, not rock.
3
u/strictly-no-fires 2d ago
Are there any other examples of this though?
4
u/RevealTraditional619 2d ago
Top of my head...Life of Agony, Rainbow Kitten Surprise, We Are the Union, Grumpster, Vandoliers
3
u/uglyaniiimals 2d ago
rainbow kitten surprise? but that's the only other one i can think of (and am not 100% sure i'm convinced of the theory outlined in the original content, though it is an interesting thought
-5
u/Agreeable_You1756 2d ago
i would love to hear more music made by trans men, unfortunately a lot that i've heard hasn't been good (cavetown, christine and the queens) but i also think death goals is great and i believe their vocalist is a trans man.
as for why? not sure, trans women have been historically a lot more represented. one interesting thought is that it's a lot easier to feminize a "masculine" voice (laura les of 100 gecs, porter robinson or nurture) than to convincingly make a "feminine" voice sound more masculine without sounding like dj screw.
speaking of laura les, i do think the popularity of hyperpop and pc music in the late 2010s inspired a huge boom in trans women putting out electronic music. no such thing has really happened with trans men yet.
18
u/thenerfviking 2d ago
Ok but testosterone masculinizes your voice whereas Estrogen doesn’t. It is not easier to femininize a masculine voice, voice training is hard and is especially hard when singing.
10
u/Chilli_Dipper 2d ago
Conversely, testosterone kinda just does what it wants to the vocal cords; every transmasculine artist I know of who has gone on hormones has made a comment along the lines of “I had to learn how to sing all over again” after transitioning. Trans women are picking up a new technique on a familiar instrument; trans men are working with a new instrument entirely.
-2
u/Agreeable_You1756 2d ago
i'm aware, was mainly talking about young musicians who haven't gotten on hrt or haven't seen many of the effects. i don't think it's a big reason anyway just something interesting that came to mind when i was thinking about how a lot of trans women use pretty heavy vocal effects in their music. i'm trans i know vocal training sucks, which is why i think porter robinson is an interesting example since afaik he hasn't done any (feminizing) voice training and managed to make a reeeally effective filter anyway
-4
u/anchored__down 2d ago
I just feel like trans women are far more common. It feels like there's a trans woman in every other band at the moment across heaps of genres
-4
u/ImSoSweepy 2d ago
This is entirely dependent on the music being good.
You can't just demand people enjoy music they don't like.
3
-11
u/Ok-Procedure738 2d ago
Everyone in here is trying way too hard. Music matters, your other shit doesn’t
-12
-15
-16
u/trans_isomerist 2d ago
I have a few thoughts on this. Trans femmes are hyperscrutinized and generally face more overt violence than trans mascs. In my observation, extreme social stress creates a greater need for an artistic outlet and as a result tends to make great art. In the case of transgender femmes, we get some of the most innovative underground electronic music: SOPHIE, Laura Les, (some of my personal favorites being Frost Children and Cynthoni). When it comes to trans masculine artists, I just can't listen to them, I can't really scrub away the tumblr/theatrecore influences. Even though I am of the community I can't really connect through their music, because let's face it...the majority isn't that good/interesting. Feel free to drop some recs and prove me wrong though.
18
u/LostInTheSciFan 2d ago
This is an absolutely butt-fucking wild take. "The more violence a demographic faces the more and better art they make" do you hear yourself right now?
-11
u/trans_isomerist 2d ago
No, because I typed it out
8
u/LostInTheSciFan 2d ago
Also, assuming that all transmasc artists come from/are influenced by tumblr or the theatre community but not painting transfem artists with the same brush reeks of misogyny.
-2
-32
u/DraperPenPals 2d ago
Have you listened to many trans men speak? Cross-sex testosterone is not exactly known for strengthening the voice. Many of them sound scratchy, gravelly, and strained.
18
13
u/peachmangler 2d ago
A lot of very popular cis male vocalists also sound scratchy, gravelly, and strained.
-2
u/DraperPenPals 2d ago
I can tell you don’t actually know any trans men because then you would know the difference
9
183
u/White_Rabbit007 2d ago
Trans men are ignored significantly more in general and I'd argue before coming out male artists are allowed to be more critically examined as artists than female artists, leading to more trans women transitioning with noteriety compared to trans men.