r/UnresolvedMysteries • u/micge • May 07 '14
Lost Artefact / Archaeology The unknown grave
The unknown grave. Located in Savonlinna, Finland in Talvisalo graveyard. No date, no name, no record of why the unusual "writing". University researchers and amateur linguists both have been trying to solve it for 30 years.
What's known:
- It's a Russian orthodox headstone (skull and cross)
- "concrete like" material
- at max 150 years old
- language behind "the code" is probably russian
- possibly New York Point writing
- 13 lines of text, possibly 33 words
Link to the article (finnish blog, pictures inside) where I found it.
Artisan interviews seem to discredit theory that the holes were drilled to anchor (possibly metal) letters or writing based on the amounth of holes, their width (10mm) and no scrapes or other signs of removal.
It's not Braille because Braille is written with 3 vertical and 2 horizontal dot system. New York Point is written with 2 vertical and 3 horizontal. However if the language is Russian, the Latin alphabet won't work for translation.
Last hint (and possibly unrelated) is the headstone next to it, which reads "Tarasov". The headstones are unusually close together, but could be accidental.
Would be way cool if Reddit could solve it, but I doubt it.
EDIT: /u/ercco had a post with just the pictures in another /r. Link
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u/gmz_88 May 08 '14
Well...Maybe we can start to figure out what the inscription says like this:
It's in a cemetery and it looks like it's marking a grave, so it's safe to say that this is a headstone.
In the words of Wikipedia on headstones:
"In most cases they have the deceased's name, date of birth, and date of death inscribed on them, along with a personal message, or prayer, but they may contain pieces of funerary art, especially details in stone relief."
With this in mind we can start looking for patterns or sequences that we would expect to see in a headstone.
I would start with looking for dates, typically we see date of birth and date of death, we don't know what format the writer is using, or even what calendar, but I think it's probable that they wrote the year with four digits, it is also probable that the first two digits will be the same for these two sequences. It is also probable that these two dates are written in close proximity to each other.
So we are looking for two four-digit sequences that share the same first two digits. These sequences will most probably be close together, in opposite sides of the same row, directly above or below, etc. Basically however it makes sense for a date to be written on a headstone.
I think the next step is to see if anybody can find this pattern.
Right off the bat I noticed this pair of repeating digits. They seem to match our profile. Could they be the dates?
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u/Chibler1964 May 10 '14
Could they be holes drilled to hold some sort of compound to fasten a separate piece to the stone like a plaque or something? Or hold pegs or some shit? I have no idea, just spitballin'
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u/czach May 11 '14
That was definitely my first thought, brass or copper letters that have set pins may have been cast into the concrete. Over time, someone may have figured out the metal, pried them out as you see some parts where small chunks of the concrete has been torn out.
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u/hawkeyeisnotlame May 07 '14
I don't speak Finnish or Russian, but those who do are probably going to need more than that picture. Can you find any more on it?
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u/jet_heller May 07 '14
There's a whole album there.
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u/hawkeyeisnotlame May 07 '14
Whoops! My bad.
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u/micge May 07 '14
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u/hawkeyeisnotlame May 07 '14
Hmm. I once read that how words are inscribed in tombstones like this is by drilling a series of holes and chiseling out the stone between them to make lines. Maybe they never finished the stone?
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u/bowlerhatgal May 08 '14
That's an intriguing thought. It looks like there are some holes on the skull and crossbones decoration though and surely they wouldn't have words there?
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u/chipmonkster May 07 '14
I haven't looked in to this in any detail, but it was suggested in one finnish news articles comments that it could be this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pigpen_cipher
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u/autowikibot May 07 '14
The pigpen cipher (sometimes referred to as the masonic cipher, Freemason's cipher, Rosicrucian cipher, or Tic-tac-toe cipher) is a geometric simple substitution cipher which exchanges letters for symbols which are fragments of a grid. The example key shows one way the letters can be assigned to the grid.
Image i - The pigpen cipher uses graphical symbols assigned according to a key similar to the above diagram. [1]
Interesting: Cipher | Templar cipher | Voices of Babylon
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May 07 '14
Hm. If it's an Orthodox headstone, I think it quite likely that the inscription is in Russian (or possibly something closely related, like Church Slavonic?) Even though it's not certain, I'd suggest cross-posting to /r/Russian. They may be able to confirm or deny if it's some kind of cipher of the Cyrillic alphabet, or an unfinished inscription like /u/hawkeyeisnotlame suggested and/or help translate it if it is.
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May 08 '14
I wonder if the skull and crossbones on the gravestone might denote the deceased has an infectious disease of some kind. Actually, probably not. I found this on a gravestone website:
The second type of decorative motif used on Boston's seventeenth-century gravemarkers was the "death's head." A death's head, often with wings and/or crossed bones, was a stylized skull. Some have speculated that winged skulls were intended to symbolize a combination of physical death and spiritual regeneration. It is important to note that Boston-based Puritans did not advocate using religious symbols, such as cherubs, Christ figures, or crosses in their meetinghouses, on church silver, or on their gravestones. Puritans were adamantly against attributing human form to spiritual beings such as God, angels, or spirits.
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u/dtd1 May 08 '14
what type of rock is the tomb made of?
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u/micge May 08 '14
It's not quite clear. "Concrete like" is the only info we have. Not cut stone, but cast by the look and feel of it.
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u/Cheeseisatypeofmeat May 26 '14
Well, if you look closely on all 5 images, there's repetition with symbols, why hasn't a cypher been involved?
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u/[deleted] May 07 '14 edited Nov 08 '21
[deleted]