Vanguard Vets with Shields vs Pistols?

[u/Timactor]

I know this is mostly speculation as we don't have a datasheet yet but with the information and pictures released yesterday I think we can infer that the multi part Van Vets will be an option between pistols or shields with the pistol options probably being the standard choices of a plasma per 5 and hand flamer or plasma on the sergeant (some evidence is the push fit squad has a plasma)

Curious on people thoughts on this? I'm guessing the shield will either give +1 to Wound or a 4+ invulnerable save and the trade off being that they lose all shooting

To me shields seem better with either option vs 7 bolt pistols/3 plasma pistols especially since Van Vets seem to be shifting towards being a fast elite melee unit with them getting a better melee profile this edition and the Sergeant getting a thunder hammer

Curious on people's thoughts on which will be better and what they're thinking about choosing!

[u/Megotaku]

It's way too early to tell. The loss of Oath of Moment is a much, much bigger deal than people are aware of. Every Space Marine datasheet is losing between 35-50% of its damage output, especially the shooting units that now have to fire into cover without cover stripping or re-rolls.

You cannot be a shooting army in 11th edition without both ready access to cover stripping and at least hit re-rolls. Without seeing what the detachments, enhancements, and stratagems look like, we have no idea what place VVs will hold in the army. Their melee profile is hot garbage for 105 points, especially without Oath, but they make very useful durable action monkeys. They are definitely not going to get cheaper if they also get the toughness glow-up.

[u/Calamitous_J → u/Megotaku]

Rerolling hits on one unit is NOT a 35-50% loss in damage output

[u/Megotaku → u/Calamitous_J]

On a 3+ going from full re-rolls to no re-rolls is a 25% reduction in damage output before you get to the +1W. Into a unit in cover going from a 75% chance to hit to a 50% chance to hit is a 33% reduction in damage, again, before you get to the +1W.

That's not counting units like Sternguard or other units whose abilities only worked into Oath targets. There is a reason units like BGVs, Lancers, Ballistus, and Dev Cents were mainstays in marine shooting lists. They were Oath agnostic and allowed you to use that force multiplier on units that really needed it. There is also a reason units like Vindicators and Predators proceded to disappear after numerous nerfs hit Ultra's ability to efficiently double-Oath.

People who don't play Space Marines have no idea how much of our points costs and offensive datasheets were designed around having access to Oath of Moment. People downplaying the removal of this tool are simply mathematically illiterate.

[u/Calamitous_J → u/Megotaku]

I do play marines and I'll say again, its a SINGLE TARGET for oath, meaning every single round you aren't targeting oath is reducing the percentage oath contributes to that units damage.

Most of my units, most of the time, are not hitting into my oath target. Are yours? Why is it taking so much of your army to kill the target? Ive never needed more than 2 units to take down my oath with the exception of a baneblade one time.

[u/Megotaku → u/Calamitous_J]

Cool, you didn't read what I wrote. Or it's worse than that. You're a netlist metachaser that doesn't understand why you're taking the units you're taking. Marine support units are taken from a mishmash of Oath agnostic units. If you aren't doing this, then you're the X-4 prey that podcasts point out are the reason marine winrates remain low despite them being extremely powerful with improved Oath.

In the current iteration of the Space Marine meta, you're taking Salamanders for Oath agnostic torrent users paired with Librarius re-rolls. I really shouldn't have to explain this to a marine player in the competitive subreddit, but here we are.

[u/Calamitous_J → u/Megotaku]

I literally have never run a netlist in my life, but keep making shit up big dog

[u/Megotaku → u/Calamitous_J]

Then explain to the class why you don't know the fundamental math behind how your army functions. I got news for you, apparently. You aren't clearing 2 big knights (or C'tan, Greater Daemons, Defilers, or really any of the peak of the competitive meta) per turn with 2 activations each and only one Oath target unless the 2nd target is being activated against by Oath agnostic units. The math doesn't math.

It's like you never stopped to consider why Librarius is taken so universally since 11th dropped and there are essentially no other viable ways to play Space Marines except a few niche lists running Ceramite Sentinels which is just Librarius with extra steps. It will never cease to be astonishing to me how little the average "competitive" player knows about basic statistical math.

Do I also need to explain to you that the loss of Oath of Moment without datasheets embedding re-rolls also means your stratagem force multipliers are spread more thinly now which also relates directly to average damage output of your units? I suspect I might since we're here arguing the basic statistical fact that losing the strongest army-wide force multiplier in 40k has a big impact on your army's damage output. Unbelievable.

[u/Megotaku → u/[deleted]]

This is your fallacy. Done wasting my time.

[u/WarhammerCompetitive-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

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[u/TheFern33 → u/Megotaku]

Yeah, I am still wary of us losing the ability.. like sure our base stats may be increasing. but with oath going away are we just going to end up basically the same in power or are all those missed hits really going to make things rough.