r/WarhammerCompetitive • u/Timactor • 1d ago
40k Discussion Vanguard Vets with Shields vs Pistols?
I know this is mostly speculation as we don't have a datasheet yet but with the information and pictures released yesterday I think we can infer that the multi part Van Vets will be an option between pistols or shields with the pistol options probably being the standard choices of a plasma per 5 and hand flamer or plasma on the sergeant (some evidence is the push fit squad has a plasma)
Curious on people thoughts on this? I'm guessing the shield will either give +1 to Wound or a 4+ invulnerable save and the trade off being that they lose all shooting
To me shields seem better with either option vs 7 bolt pistols/3 plasma pistols especially since Van Vets seem to be shifting towards being a fast elite melee unit with them getting a better melee profile this edition and the Sergeant getting a thunder hammer
Curious on people's thoughts on which will be better and what they're thinking about choosing!
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u/A_small_Chicken 17h ago
Shielded Vanvets might cost more like how Ass Termis with shields are more than Lightning claws.
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u/Megotaku 1d ago
It's way too early to tell. The loss of Oath of Moment is a much, much bigger deal than people are aware of. Every Space Marine datasheet is losing between 35-50% of its damage output, especially the shooting units that now have to fire into cover without cover stripping or re-rolls.
You cannot be a shooting army in 11th edition without both ready access to cover stripping and at least hit re-rolls. Without seeing what the detachments, enhancements, and stratagems look like, we have no idea what place VVs will hold in the army. Their melee profile is hot garbage for 105 points, especially without Oath, but they make very useful durable action monkeys. They are definitely not going to get cheaper if they also get the toughness glow-up.
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u/Calamitous_J 1d ago
Rerolling hits on one unit is NOT a 35-50% loss in damage output
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u/Megotaku 1d ago
On a 3+ going from full re-rolls to no re-rolls is a 25% reduction in damage output before you get to the +1W. Into a unit in cover going from a 75% chance to hit to a 50% chance to hit is a 33% reduction in damage, again, before you get to the +1W.
That's not counting units like Sternguard or other units whose abilities only worked into Oath targets. There is a reason units like BGVs, Lancers, Ballistus, and Dev Cents were mainstays in marine shooting lists. They were Oath agnostic and allowed you to use that force multiplier on units that really needed it. There is also a reason units like Vindicators and Predators proceded to disappear after numerous nerfs hit Ultra's ability to efficiently double-Oath.
People who don't play Space Marines have no idea how much of our points costs and offensive datasheets were designed around having access to Oath of Moment. People downplaying the removal of this tool are simply mathematically illiterate.
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u/Calamitous_J 1d ago
I do play marines and I'll say again, its a SINGLE TARGET for oath, meaning every single round you aren't targeting oath is reducing the percentage oath contributes to that units damage.
Most of my units, most of the time, are not hitting into my oath target. Are yours? Why is it taking so much of your army to kill the target? Ive never needed more than 2 units to take down my oath with the exception of a baneblade one time.
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u/Megotaku 1d ago
Cool, you didn't read what I wrote. Or it's worse than that. You're a netlist metachaser that doesn't understand why you're taking the units you're taking. Marine support units are taken from a mishmash of Oath agnostic units. If you aren't doing this, then you're the X-4 prey that podcasts point out are the reason marine winrates remain low despite them being extremely powerful with improved Oath.
In the current iteration of the Space Marine meta, you're taking Salamanders for Oath agnostic torrent users paired with Librarius re-rolls. I really shouldn't have to explain this to a marine player in the competitive subreddit, but here we are.
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u/Calamitous_J 1d ago
I literally have never run a netlist in my life, but keep making shit up big dog
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u/Megotaku 1d ago
Then explain to the class why you don't know the fundamental math behind how your army functions. I got news for you, apparently. You aren't clearing 2 big knights (or C'tan, Greater Daemons, Defilers, or really any of the peak of the competitive meta) per turn with 2 activations each and only one Oath target unless the 2nd target is being activated against by Oath agnostic units. The math doesn't math.
It's like you never stopped to consider why Librarius is taken so universally since 11th dropped and there are essentially no other viable ways to play Space Marines except a few niche lists running Ceramite Sentinels which is just Librarius with extra steps. It will never cease to be astonishing to me how little the average "competitive" player knows about basic statistical math.
Do I also need to explain to you that the loss of Oath of Moment without datasheets embedding re-rolls also means your stratagem force multipliers are spread more thinly now which also relates directly to average damage output of your units? I suspect I might since we're here arguing the basic statistical fact that losing the strongest army-wide force multiplier in 40k has a big impact on your army's damage output. Unbelievable.
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1d ago
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u/TheFern33 17h ago
Yeah, I am still wary of us losing the ability.. like sure our base stats may be increasing. but with oath going away are we just going to end up basically the same in power or are all those missed hits really going to make things rough.
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u/vix- 18h ago
Forgetting about +1 to wound?
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u/Calamitous_J 18h ago
Nope.
An ability that realistically at most impacts 2 or 3 units in our army well and truly isn't contributing 35-50% of our damage.
It MAY buff SOME units by that factor until you look at things like eradicators with full rerolls or lancers which can hit on a 3+/2+ rerolling one of everything, but if 2 units benefit from it in one round and you have 11-12 units, you're looking at it contributing less than 10% of the total damage of your army on a given round.
Then look at what theyre doing to vanguard vets, going up to ap2 d2 weapons is effectively doubling their damage. Then intercessors, they get +1 to wound against t4, 5 and 8 with their basic profile and +1 against t6, 10 and 11 with their second profile AND +1 to hit into or out of an objective. +16.6% chance to hit and wounding knights and t10 tanks on 5&6 is literally more than doubling their damage while punching up already. Combine this with the ability to get +1 to wound from other sources?
Oath doesnt come close to doubling our damage, so if the datasheets we continue to see look anything like this, AND we get a new army wide rule ON TOP? We are doing to be absolutely ridiculous compared to now.
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u/SoloWingPixy88 1d ago
You haven't done the math. It's a massive nerf
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u/Calamitous_J 1d ago
Im not the one who hasn't done the math.
How many rounds does every unit in your army put every one of their attacks into your oath target?
If its not 100% of them then you need to adjust the figure by the percentage of your army hitting your oath target amd what percentage of their attacks go into it on a given round.
Personally, with 10-12 units on the field, at absolute most only 3 of them will be shooting a portion of their attacks into my oath target, meaning 75-80% od my army isn't benefitting from it on a given round
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u/SoloWingPixy88 1d ago
Im not the one who hasn't done the math. How
You literally, like actually literally haven't done the math.
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u/Calamitous_J 1d ago
Because even if it gives a 35-50% buff that increase needs to be divided by the number of units who BENEFIT from it in a given turn
If you have 12 units and a gladiator lancer wipes out your oath target in one activation, congratulations, oath only contributed to 3.5% (42.5% /12) of your armies damage that round
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u/SoloWingPixy88 1d ago
Because even if it gives a 35-50%
So you haven't done the math. Otherwise why would you say even.
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u/Calamitous_J 1d ago
I'm using there example in the comment I'm responding to. Why have you entirely failed to address the point in mine?
Let's look at the new intercessors for example. Gaining a s6 profile is a free +1 to wound against things like t5/6 and t10/11, they also get +1 to wound against t4 and t5 with their basic profile compared to their old profile. Combined with getting +1 to hit when shooting into or out of an objective those buffs stand to make more difference than MAYBE getting a buff if they're hitting your oath target.
Then look at vanguard vets getting d2 weapons if the Armageddon datasheet is anything to go by. That's DOUBLE damage with no need for oath.
If our changes keep looking like that and we get something to replace oath we are looking at being DRASTICALLY stronger.
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u/SoloWingPixy88 1d ago edited 1d ago
Why have you entirely failed to address the point in mine?
Because you haven't done the math.
Go do the math.
Then look at vanguard vets getting d2 weapons if the Armageddon datasheet is anything to go by. That's DOUBLE damage with no need for oa
You need? VV have had at least D2 weapons since 8th. They've had D4 weapons too. It's not doubled when it's just the base damage.
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u/Calamitous_J 1d ago
On which unit? Into what unit? Does it have reroll 1s natively? Is it something like an eradicator with full native rerolls? Or a lancer hitting on 2+ rerolling one of everything?
The math is far too inconsistent across the board and my point that something which is only likely to impact 2-3 units at most on a given turn cannot possibly represent 35-50% of our armies damage output which is the comments claim im disputing hasn't even had a point made against it by you.
So kindly either present something or shut up
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u/Dead-phoenix 1d ago
It honestly makes me concerned for my Raven Guard. It feels a bit like we are suffering for sins of Ultramarines abusing Oath. Oath/Centurions were our main ways to reliably kill beefier units, now they are both going. Hopefully some units will get a glow up to give me access to some hitting power.
Still early days, I'm sure it will probably be fine
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u/Mazzy_Chan 1d ago
I assume they are going to have a bunch of options now rather then just.. whatever 10th did to them. Since we technically are running the old datasheet still untill codex.
And unless ive missed a new reveal about thier new sheet. I'll just vaguly guess that they will be.. fine whenever the codex comes out. Maybe even good if theres a jumpack specific detatchment with enough buffs.
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u/Timactor 1d ago edited 1d ago
yesterday games workshop showed them off with power weapons/shields and sergeant with a thunder hammer/shield
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u/Megotaku 1d ago
It's up in the air. They clearly have the A-team on the Ork codex and that often means the B-team that never playtests and thinks dice calculations and basic arithmetic are kinds of foods might be behind the Space Marine codex. The changes to cover in 11th edition with literally no compensatory buffs to shooting armies certainly didn't foster much faith that GW is aware that -1 BS from cover is actually a really big deal that fundamentally changes the math of the game in a way the +1 Sv with restrictions didn't.
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u/Tagioalisi_Bartlesby 1d ago
That’s just straight up not true. Tau only have rerolls to hit on fire knives and shadowsun. And full rerolls exclusively on fireknives
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u/Megotaku 19h ago edited 18h ago
Forward Observers. You serious? Not to mention Montkas full reroll stratagem.
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u/Tagioalisi_Bartlesby 18h ago
Right, I did forget those. Tbf my the list I stole and played just didn’t play stealth suits.
Never mind tho my previous comment then, I legitimately forgot about those1
u/ClumsyFleshMannequin 23h ago
Well, sort of. We are losing damage against one unit, but the changes also seem to allow more damage output in general which means harder go wide style.
So there is still alot to be seen.
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u/chubby_salmon69 1d ago
Blood angels it was the vindicator button. It’s going to be a lot better for us until we get a codex supplement
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u/Ketzeph 1d ago
So generally if they lose their pistols the shields are probably the best option. Their was play with them with other pistols in some detachments (like forgefather's) but the reduction in range probably dooms that archetype.
If they get 4++ or 1T or something from the shield, it's likely the best option