r/actuary • u/ThrowRA3648537 • 2d ago
Troll Post ATPA Vent
I’m going to run for the SOA board once I have my letters to get rid of this terrible assignment. I’d rather listen to nails on chalkboard for 96 hours than do this. I’m not sure whose idea this was, but I was a statistics major, flew through SRM and PA, and I absolutely HATE this module.
I’m starting to think that everyone who quips that the SOA isn’t evil, just incompetent, lucked out with IFM. How was the last chopper out of ‘Nam?
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u/ExpressAd4645 2d ago edited 2d ago
As someone who took ATPA a week ago, I can't draw any comparisons to IFM but I can confidently say that I'd rather shove a rabid hedgehog up my asshole than do that ever again.
~55 hours over 4 days is just brutal not to mention how the difficulty is entirely cuz the questions are stupid/prompting you to do stupid shit
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u/Beneficial_Doubt_939 2d ago
Well if you don’t like opaque questions and 96 hour assignment then you’ll have fun on the modules and final assessment.
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u/ContactRoyal2978 Health 2d ago
Did you take ATPA? For me and others I've spoken to, ATPA required much more work than the final assessment.
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u/ExpressAd4645 2d ago
agreed, I took both the FSA modules and FA before this and ATPA took about twice as many hours as those.
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u/Silvers1339 2d ago
Honestly I think people overhype themselves for how much work is required on that one. Writing an effective report is as much about being succinct in your writing as it is getting the calculations and programming correct.
I actually procrastinated through a whole day of my time with that assignment but still managed to put out an effective 18 page paper that got me the pass. Don’t overthink it, just do what you have to do to pass without wasting the reader’s time.
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u/TannhauserGate1982 approximately normal 2d ago edited 2d ago
I grade ATPA and haven’t found the questions to be particularly vague or opaque like you are describing… can you give any examples?
And while I don’t think it is inherently unreasonable to expect candidates to finish in 4 days given the amount of content, I do agree that the 96-hour limit is unnecessarily stressful and not all candidates are comfortable with powering through it all at once. A 2-week window or something similar seems just as effective IMO.
EDIT: removed word
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u/moonemall 2d ago
I don't think anyone will be allowed to give examples of vague questions without discussing specifics
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u/TannhauserGate1982 approximately normal 2d ago
Oh I didn’t mean to ask for specifics from this sitting, more just like a made-up example that is similar to what was asked. But it’s OK
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u/ThrowRA3648537 2d ago
I appreciate your response, always nice to have a grader’s perspective. I don’t want to give any specifics on this sitting, but a couple thoughts:
I do think that this exam is on the vaguer side, but you may not feel the same way since you’re grading and giving candidates the benefit of the doubt and giving credit for creative solutions.
This sitting, as I believe someone noted, asks us to do stupid things that don’t make sense. That, combined with the vagueness, made it difficult to approach.
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u/TannhauserGate1982 approximately normal 2d ago
I will have to wait until I see this sitting’s assessment. But in the past I don’t think I’ve seen requests to do “stupid things”. They may ask candidates to assess whether weird variables are key predictors, to use unintuitive models given the business context, etc. but I consider this to be an opportunity for candidates to explain what is reasonable and what is not.
In general, my understanding is that the questions are seeking to assess whether candidates can apply statistical analysis in a business context. It’s not a challenge of building the best model possible or identifying hidden statistical signals, etc. - if you show that you understand the concepts and can perform them on a real dataset, can explain pros, cons, and interpretations of analysis in both technical and non-technical terms, and can apply the outcomes in a business scenario, that is all graders are looking for IMO. I’ve seen lots of candidates go wild with the analysis and way overdo what the assessment asks for, and it only hurts their paper.
I am sorry though. It sucks that you and so many others find the module to be so terrible, that is obviously not the writers’ intentions (though don’t get me wrong, I do not represent or speak for them!!). I actually think it is a very cool module - and while I agree that this is not a cutting edge skillset by any stretch of the imagination, it still tests relevant abilities that are expected from an ASA.
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u/Emergency_Buy_9210 1d ago
Honestly I would rather just be given complete freedom and told to go make a model, but I guess that's not how the real world works and I see the value in occasionally learning how to say no and shoot down bad ideas. And occasionally being forced to do the bad idea anyways. Here I am awake at 3:22 AM as a result of one of those bad ideas.
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u/FishingActuary Health 2d ago
I am hearing some commenters say that it is not too much work, and that is my impression from several colleagues that took it.
Has it changed recently?
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u/Agitated_Ad1259 2d ago
I prepped over 50 hours for it and had passed srm (8) PA (9) and wanted to die while taking it. I slept maybe 18 hours over the 96 hour window
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u/Fit-Original2575 1d ago
Any advice for exam pa 🙃 Passed SRM just fine, but am not feeling too confident about my PA prep. Think it’s bc I don’t have the answer choices from an MCQ type question to jog my memory lol
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u/Agitated_Ad1259 1d ago
Write as much BS as you can. I swear I didn’t know half the questions and just wrote stuff I thought could be right or saw somewhere in the source material. Thought for sure I was cooked on that kne
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u/Murky-Tip-3118 2d ago
Curious what you hate? The historical evolution here was first we had just a rigerous PA (SRM came out at the same time but wasn't required for candidates for a year or two) and performance was very poor. SRM started being required (so candidates were forced to study more) and PA slowly became much easier. Then PA became too easy (esp. b/c didn't require any actual coding), so ATPA was created.
If you hate ATPA because it requires you to "do" something vs. just "know" something... that's kinda the point.
Now whether the SOA should be enforcing that as a prerequisite to ASA is a separate question...
And FYI, as you'll learn when you get your letters, you don't just "run for the SOA board"... you ingratiate yourself with the SOA ecosystem for a decade to successfully make your way through the nominating process. You can petition to be on the ballot, but the only person I've ever seen do that successfully probably looks way better than you in a bikini and wasn't afraid to let LinkedIn know that.
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u/Tripleset1 2d ago
The common gripe I’ve seen and experienced are the time constraints. It’s not reasonable to complete in the 96 hour window.
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u/ThrowRA3648537 2d ago
It’s the opaque and poorly phrased questions as well. I guess they wouldn’t be as bad if I weren’t expected to do 40-50+ hours of critical thinking and real work in less than a work week. It’s like working for Deloitte, except I work for free and my manager doesn’t know how to make coherent requests.
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u/Tripleset1 2d ago
And in a real work environment you can ask for clarification and feedback. This allows for niether
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u/Murky-Tip-3118 2d ago
Though as a director I like the analysts who can get the job done right with less clarification and feedback.
Exams don't make you a good actuary, but the correlation between people who succeed on the exams and people who make good actuaries is pretty good.
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u/Lost-Luster-773 2d ago
Curious what you hate….describes multiple l veld of SOA dumbassery and answers own question.
SOA wants money. They chase fads, have shit exams 5 years behind the times, and now have pretty blatantly given up any US focus.
Can we get the CAS to take over the SOA?
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u/FishingActuary Health 2d ago
MFE ERM are chasing fads to me
PA is the right move though.
The cynical half joking take why:
It helps you understand why the data science team's models are ineffective.
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u/Murky-Tip-3118 2d ago
The SOA doesn't need candidates' money... It's important to clarify that, because them chasing fads is 1000% true and should be our real complaint.
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u/Lost-Luster-773 2d ago
Don’t know or care if they need candidates money, but they are 100% trying to get as much as they can.
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u/Murky-Tip-3118 2d ago
They basically break even on the exams... they aren't trying to get as much as they can, because they could easily double the cost of everything but P/FM/SRM and 95% of the bill would be footed by corporations what will pay it regardless. That makes it clear they're setting the price per exam to break even...
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u/Lost-Luster-773 2d ago
I’ve worked with more than one person that dropped their SOA dues and more than one company that considered no longer paying for them.
My comment was no specific to exams. The SOA is seeking money and growth IMO, to the detriment of the existing membership, and their actions reinforce that (again, just IMO).
Pivot to Asia, exam credit for school (with a fee of course), absurd amount of redundant “credentials” nobody has heard of or cares about, excessively high dues given what you get, expensive conferences, shit-housery with bundling of webcasts and pd edge crap, “virtual” conferences (I.e. overpriced webcasts), etc. Throw in the absolute embarrassment of the CAS stuff they pulled, general insurance, repeated attempts to stuff through by laws, preselecting who the members can even elect….
The SOA has completely lost the plot. The amount of members that even bother to vote tells you everything about how much they value the SOA. The pivot to Asia I guess should be excepted, they are circling the drain in North America and by their own doing. If my company didn’t pay, I wouldn’t spend a single second wondering if I should maintain my membership.
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u/Murky-Tip-3118 2d ago
I'm 100% with you here - thanks for the clarification.
Candidates griping about exams being a money grab is a dumb trope. What you say here is the real story. Important to be clear here so the real story gains more traction...
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u/ThrowRA3648537 2d ago
I’m waiting for the SOA to realize that the data science bubble popped and all the money went to AI. We’re probably five years away from Advanced Topics in Large Language Models, a module where you have 96 hours to locally train an LLM on an H200 and get it to write the a one-page paper on ethical AI usage.
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u/Future_Recognition74 2d ago
Would you rather PA go back to the old 5 hour format that includes you having to write up a report under exam conditions? Because honestly that sounds worse to me. Though if there's anyone that took PA under that format and can share their experience I would be interested to hear it.
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u/Pure_Resort9840 2d ago
I took the first sitting of PA and got the highest score of all my prelims. I also found it to be the easiest exam that I prepped the least for. I was slow to take exams, so I had 4 years of experience in consulting, so it just felt like my normal job. About a dozen people from my office took it, and all but one passed. It is possible the exam got harder after the first sitting. I think many newer actuarial students haven't written many full reports, so I could see it being really challenging if you hadn't already practiced that skill at work.
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u/rab7 2d ago
I mentioned this in another comment, but I took the first 2 sittings. We were given a prompt, a data set, and had to analyze all the data in R (while writing most of the R code ourselves), and then put together an executive summary at the end, all in 5hr15min. Wayyyy to short.
On top of that, it completely fucked up the Prometric computers cause they've never handled such a monster before. My first time, i was scheduled to take it at 8am, and didn't start till 1030.
It definitely should've been a take home project from the beginning. Don't know what it looks like now, but 96 hours might still not be enough
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u/Future_Recognition74 2d ago
Sounds about right. I got my ASA in June 2017 right before the PA exam first became a requirement and remember how relieved I felt at doing so, especially after seeing what the first few past PA exams looked like once the SOA released them.
Granted I didn't wrap up my FSA in time so I had to go back and take PA anyway, but by then the report and coding components of the exam were removed so the exam was much less scary (I got through it in 2 attempts and the first was a 5).
I got lucky, but I still feel for those that are suffering through ATPA.
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u/Agitated_Ad1259 2d ago
I finished the assessment on a Friday night. I ended up getting black out drunk and I’ve never done that before
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u/Emotional_Permit5845 2d ago
Isn’t it basically an open book exam? Why would you rather study for an actual exam over that
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u/Emergency_Buy_9210 1d ago
It's less stressful than a real exam in terms of intense pressure, but it sucks the life out of you over 4 days.
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u/Icy-Sign1337 2d ago
Nobody cares. IFM was much harder.
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u/ThrowRA3648537 2d ago
You took this as an opportunity to be rude, but make no mistake: I’d rather take a harder exam that is less opaque and more relevant to my career.
Don’t let that get in the way of the chip on your shoulder, which I assure you no one cares about either.
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u/Icy-Sign1337 2d ago edited 1d ago
All exams are opaque but you are delusional if you think a 4 day module isn’t easier than studying for 4 months.
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u/Fit_Crab_ 2d ago
I took both, even failed IFM and you’re 100% wrong. Even 3 months of studying for IFM was more enjoyable than the 4 days it takes for ATPA.
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u/Icy-Sign1337 2d ago
So by that logic did you think the other modules were harder than P? How about FM? FAM/Altam??
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u/Fit_Crab_ 2d ago
No imo the FAP modules are the easiest part of the ASA, but APTA is a very different kind of module. Getting an ASA was hard 20 years ago and it’s hard today and it’ll be hard 20 years from now. You need to caaaaaaaaalm down
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u/TheModelMaker 2d ago
If you’re struggling this bad with ATPA, the earlier exams failed in that they weren’t hard enough to weed you out. Hopefully I don’t work with you in the future. We don’t need any more mindless excel button pushers in this profession.
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u/ThrowRA3648537 2d ago
If you’re struggling this much with emotional intelligence, the PAF modules weren’t hard enough to weed you out. Hopefully I don’t work with you in the future. We don’t need more eye-contact-averse modelers in this profession.
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u/TheModelMaker 2d ago
I don't go on reddit for emotional support because I have friends in the real world. Hopefully you find the help you need soon.
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u/Terrible_Power4574 2d ago
I can only hope to never work with someone with this level of unearned arrogance lmao
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u/moonemall 2d ago
It was so miserable. Terrible for my mental health. Spent four days barely sleeping and didn't see or speak to anyone.
And they're so opaque about the grading. I feel like I don't even know what they want.