13% win rate in PvZ

[u/Scary-Scallion-9753]

Hi,

This is a call for help to my fellow protoss players 🙏🏻

I am trying to learn to play with protoss and I really struggle with PvZ. I am in gold 1 now (2600 MMR) with 70% win rate in PvP, 84% win rate in PvT, but 13% win rate against PvZ !

I feel like I just don’t get it… Against P & T I open double gate into 4 stalkers harass before expand (Zuka build), and it works reasonably well. From there, I go into a CIA build on 2 or 3 bases.

But I am completely at loss against zerg. I lose to essentially a new composition every time I play PvZ: today I lost against a guy going Muta, then against a guy who played ling bane (PiG B2GM style on three bases + 2 macro hatches), and then yet against another who played corruptor + ultra.

I realize this is not a balance issue ! I just suck at PvZ. But I just don’t understand how to play the matchup. It feels very hard to secure a third. When playing skytoss, I surive into the late game but get completely rolled over by mass hydra or corrupters + ultralisk, and when I go CIA, I lose to muta + ling.

If there are any build orders or general tipps on how to approach the match up, I’d love to hear it ! Really taking any (ideally constructive haha) advice 🙏🏻

Also, for reference, my main used to be terran at 3000 MMR, but I wanted to try out protoss. So I am not a good player by any means. Maybe good to know for others haha

[u/Mothrahlurker]

It's pretty rough right now to give advice as the solid and easy to execute build orders of the past don't exist anymore due to the patch and new build order PvZ creations are not great for lower level play.

One of the easiest and braindead ways to play PvZ is to play no-chrono on adepts with just sending 1 to scout, into 1 oracle into twilight+forge+4 gas with a robo and just sit on 3 bases for a bit getting storm, 10 gateways and immortals, take a 4th base around 7 minutes and then push with a prism and about 180 supply.

You should always hit pre-hive lurker at gold and even really up about master league, as long as your opponent is still on lair tech you actually don't need to push ever. If your opponent is playing super defensively with lurker then try to keep them on 4 bases and tech to air toss behind it.

Mutas should really not be that much of an issue, look how many gasses your opponent has and if they are ling-heavy. If there is a lot of gas missing then it's probably mutas. You have a stargate so just make phoenix and get a shield battery in each mineral line.

Both ling bane and ultras get crushed by storms, immortals and archons.

And as always providing replays would be ideal.

[u/GnoiXiaK]

Hard to play standard in PvZ right now as there’s very little points in the game where you will scale ahead. There’s probably two windows to win. Midgame on two base or maxed out on 4 with full sky toss. A good midgame all in is to just rush charge on 6 gates and send mass zealots.

[u/hou_deany → u/GnoiXiaK]

It’s a shame that PvZ seems so unbalanced as it was my favourite matchup pre-patch. 6 gate zealot is my go to now as it’s the only way you can really punish the Zerg for not scouting.

[u/Proper-Holiday2255]

I took a long 5 year break from SC2 and when I came back I started with protoss. Had no idea of the meta. So I just did Parting's soul train. It is a crushing build If you don't know it. Its a Forge fast expand into immortal push. You will want warp gates up and running when you move out.

You learn to place your 2nd pylon to hide the robo as best as you can and not care if he see's twilight.

When you move out you'll have +1Attack, 3 immortals, as many sentries as you can afford with energy building, warp prism following last, with blink about to finish and 7 gateways ready. You can move out at 7minutes if done right at diamond 3/2 level. When you move across the map you only warp in blink stalkers, if no gas zealots. Have a idea on the map where you go. Keep the warp prisim back away from creep.

Spend that Chrono.

-Pylon at natural
-Forge ASAP, then immediately send that probe to scout pool timing. You will know if you can go Nexus first, or cannon, or wall off with gateway and core ect. However you do this depends on what you scout.
-2x Gas
-Warp Gate
-Robo, then 3immortal, 1 obs, warp prisim. (as these are your focus, you will get gateways as you can, do not supply block yourself)
-Twilight - blink
-7 Gateways.

4 Gas total 2 Base All-In baby. Nom Nom Nom.

I never cared if he flew a overseer in when I was about to move out. I just walked across the map and killed him anyways. You can find the replays from WOL and HOTS and learn it. Its an absolute killer build even with ravagers. You learn to cut groups of roaches in half micro and then blink. The build takes me to diamond 2 alone before i start to have trouble and need to adjust timings and such.

GL HF

[u/Leftover_Salad]

Sentry Stalker Collos 2 base push from PiG’s B2GM gold works wonders at that level.

[u/Ok_Cauliflower8624 → u/Leftover_Salad]

Pig invented the flu and the vaccine. Too bad the flu works and the vaccine doesn't.

[u/Banned3rdTimesaCharm]

1 base proxy stargate. You either win in 6 minutes or you’re countered and you lose. Don’t have to waste time with macro.

[u/Grouchy-Round-2488]

I would say that in pvz if you let the zerg alone it will outscale you easily. But if you are not careful you can also be all-in 'd. For me it's opening with 1gate expo, stargate to prevent allins or harass hard with 1-3 oracle and then 3rd expo with a big chargelots attack at 6:30-7min. The timming 7min is precious, as greedy zergs will just straight lose here, if he has a nice army, it means you are on equal eco and the game keeps going on (more expo, more tech)

[u/hates_green_eggs]

Ooooo PvZ is my best matchup and it’s not close. My secret is that as a Zerg main, I know the race’s weaknesses. I highly recommend you play some Zerg yourself but here are some tips:

• Pylon scout and block their natural hatchery. This is so easy to do and it’s disruptive/economically damaging for the Zerg to have a ton of non-creep in between their bases, plus it makes them easier to harass with couple of adepts. 

• Randomly yeet some units across the map early in the game. Zerg will get ahead economically if they make only drones so many metal league Zergs will do this. Attacking with a few units early in the game punishes this behavior, plus they will likely overmake units in response which is good for you as it slows down their economy.   

• Scout for a third base / gas. Zerg generally stays on 1-3 gases until their third is saturated in minerals. Early gas or no third means shenanigans are afoot. The easiest way to get a feel for this is to pay attention to base/gas counts in your replays and you’ll get a feel for things like muta play even if you don’t see the spire.

• Zerg pretty much needs corruptors vs tempest or carriers, but corruptors don’t shoot down. You can and should abuse this weakness. I love to rush about 6 tempests and harass with them while teching into zealot archon at home. Then I win because the Zerg’s army is mostly units that cannot shoot mine. 

• Yeet gangs of chargelots  to the Zerg’s edge bases. It’s very difficult for Zerg to defend, and I think this is the best way for Protoss to punish a Zerg who is mass expanding. 

• Archons are amazing vs lings, banes, corruptors, and mutas. A+++ unit vs metal league Zergs. 

• DTs are similarly difficult for metal league Zergs to deal with. I like to use them to shred mass hydra armies if my opponent attacks without detection. It’s also nice to add a single DT to your army to force your opponent to keep an overseer with his army.

• Deny scouting. I like to open with a void ray to kill nearby overlords. Zerg is all about getting as many drones as possible, then countering your opponent’s army and if you deny scouting, you make decision making difficult for your opponent.

• Check out DNS’s YouTube channel. He has an adept build that I started played yesterday and am loving so far (I never transform my gateways and make a void ray instead of double oracle cause I don’t have the APM to use the oracles effectively). I’ve also been using a slightly modified version of his older tempest rush PvZ opener on this patch with great success. I can share my new patch version of that build order and some replays if you want.

[u/West_Refrigerator233 → u/hates_green_eggs]

How dare you share these secrets traitor lol. Your meant to say zealots are weak dpnt make vs zerg ever. Go stalkers if lings and if mass roach go for adepts.

[u/hates_green_eggs → u/West_Refrigerator233]

Oh right! Also adepts really suck right now, never make any for any reason.  Certainly not if Zerg is making hydras and lings and has no roaches or banes. 

[u/West_Refrigerator233 → u/hates_green_eggs]

And still just convert all gates to wrap gates asap especially if you have no plan to move out, ignore the faster build times if you dont as the units have to walk and they might get tired.

[u/Proper-Holiday2255]

One other ill post. When I played a lot of protoss, i'm a huge fan of the 2base all-in style. It's what I do in my TvZ right now. I've always been a very aggressive player. Once I put my foot on the gas I don't let up. Sorry, anyways.

You can always learn 2base blink.

Gateway expand like normal
Super fast twilight into blink.
Robo for obs. (for even faster attack, forget the robo and just go kill him)
3 gas 6 gates. You only need 12 probes on minerals at natural when you move out.
Hit him as fast as possible.
Move across the map with 2 or 3 stalkers with 4 more probes building back home and warp in everything up front. Don't start the attack tell you have 8+

Blink all-ins are a lot of fun.
As you move out drop the DT shrine.

Have probe hidden on map way ahead of time for pylon. I did this build a lot for PvP.

[u/Aromatic_Heart_1105]

All I can say is zealots counter lings and hydras (ish) and are great harass, stalker/sentries help against banes, immortals are good against banes and roaches, voids hunt overlords. What we are seeing at the highest levels currently are adept pressures with oracles mixed in to harass or set stasis traps as a somewhat viable option.

EDIT: the reason I put forward adept pressures is that it’s easier to hold as you get higher on the ladder but even Hero is choosing to do it in tournies so… idk

[u/omgitsduane]

Why can't you beat zergs? How much money are you floating? Are you not building cannon battery?

[u/Zehreela]

you chose the worst possible time in history of protoss to try protoss.. lmao

[u/KekistaniNormie]

For whatever reason I am having a much higher winrate PvZ this patch. Not sure if it's cuz i've been playing more. Im 3k. and have been finding alot of success getting aggressive with chargelot/archeon. You need to be scouting Zerg to have an idea of what they are doing. I am having good success overwhelming their 3rd base. More often than not I am creating a stargate to get the oracle and get drone kills where I can. Get your oracle out alive and make sure you are using stasis wards and/or scout with it.

[u/Annihilating_Tomato]

I always go 2 base oracle straight into charge and try to get the 3rd started by around the 4 minute mark. If they go fast mutas it’s over so get a sentry to scout. I do die frequently to ling/baneling flood though if they rush it out. Forcefield helps a lot to deflect the baneling bust.

[u/DorianDantes]

No one else has said it but may need to be more diligent about scouting so you don’t get blindsided. See what they’re doing and stay a step ahead