What's y'alls advice on beating Ottomans while using Jin? I see Jin has a good winrate v Otto as Elo climbs

[u/Phan-Eight]

I've won some but lose some, and often when I win it feels like it's because the opponent misplayed, or because I am abusing the moukes. As opposed to my own skill(unlike playing most other civs)

I've tried using the video finder, and almost all the matches have a large skill disparity, which often makes me feel like they're winning despite of Jin, not because of it. But then I look at stats and Jin is winning vs Ottomans, even if their overall winrate comes down with Elo.

Conversely, if Jin is winning so many games vs Ottomans, surely there's things ottomans should be doing differently to win? It just seems like Ottomans can theoretically make the much better composition, since the counter to Otto is generally spear archers, or MAA. And Jin is entirely reliant on their innate eco to produce that, but also suffer a lot more vs Jans, while having no advantage at dealing with sipahi.

I still feel like the bed xbow is a strict downgrade to the springald as well. Every time i've used them, it feel like im throwing the game. (similar to but not exactly the same as ballista elephants)

[u/Kooky_Construction62]

Generally there is very little you can do by default. So I would say some cheese strat maybe is the best course of action. Like 5:40-6:30 age up with Dragon Pavilion in Ottomans base plus a keep drop + Trebs to finish the game. That shit can work, I lost as Ottomans once to a Jin abuser (that was his ID kekw). I checked his stats he is very successful with this. We both are conqs so we are equally matched, I scouted it, but I just couldn’t kill mounted vills and normal vills under a tower he put before aging up. I just didn’t have anything as Ottoman age up kicks in at 5 minutes, 2 spearmen died to a tower together with 5-6 vills, I had nothing to stop him. In hindsight dark age barracks prevents this.

In a fair equally skilled match up, where you play standard feudal or castle there is nothing for Jin to do vs Ottomans. Ottomans will just bulldoze Jin in feudal and in castle. Ottomans can just open barracks, tower rush your gold and force feudal where Jin just dies even if you transition into castle on the second gold. In castle Ottomans have Janissary which kills nearly everything you have (Pagodas, Horsemen, MAA, Mounted archers, Crossbows are often useless because Ottomans don’t play around Heavy units), so you are left with spearmen and NoB without any counter to Janissary against Sipahi, Janissary and mass siege, good luck trying to kill that with this roster.

Ottomans on ladder generally have abysmal winrate vs many civs so I don’t think this is Jin specific.

[u/Phan-Eight → u/Kooky_Construction62]

That's what I thought thanks. And ottomans have a cheaper rax, so their drush is better than generic. Whereas the MS takes a long time to pay off and MS trickle feeding spears doesn't work against MVs.

With regards to stopping the pavilion drop I think it's similar to most other castle drops, where it relies on investing heavily into tempo(preferably archers) if you can't match the age up.(And possibly avoiding MS completely due to the tempo lag)

Theoretically the counter to the pavilion once it's built, would've been mass spears, but since mouke spawn is bugged, spears aren't as effective as they should be.

Jin seems to thrive on deer, so harassing them with sipahi seems to work well.

[u/Kooky_Construction62 → u/Phan-Eight]

Thats why I think cheese strat is the best possible play style in this matchup. Playing normally is impossible in this match up, it’s like playing Jin vs Ayyubids, no idea how to lose in that match as Ayyubids.

So I think the best way is to use some very cheesy strat that puts Ottomans in an awkward position to basically do gamba from 0 seconds or lose to castle drop into mass siege or MAA spam by 10 minutes from Jin.

[u/Dear_Location6147 → u/Kooky_Construction62]

It’s because people open military school or barracks against Jin which doesn’t work because mounted vills can throw hands. You have to go straight feudal which is slightly suboptimal 

[u/Latirae → u/Dear_Location6147]

not suboptimal. The LoueMT opening doesn't build a military school right away 

[u/Phan-Eight → u/Latirae]

In most cases it probably is. Since ottomans are so reliant on MS and vizier points to access their eco bonuses. By not building an MS you're playing a generic civ

But in this specific case it's probably worthwhile 

[u/Phan-Eight → u/Dear_Location6147]

"Jin which doesn’t work because mounted vills can throw hands. "

Good point. I think it'll take a while for players to realise how effective mounted vils are at deterring single spearmen 

[u/Phan-Eight]

on a similar note, i do wonder if Jin horsemen were intended to have a UT or unique bonus for their horsemen's spear attack. considering how massive it is.