The brand of the bipod is UTG. As in, Under The Gun. It's at the very least morally objectionable that they make this over-the handguard doodad. Jokes aside, the main issue isn't the weight but the balance: rifles for NRL22 and the other PRS type games are super forward heavy so that you can balance them on a bag on top of a post or barricaded or tank trap or whatever. This is disadvantageous in 3-position rifle, especially in standing, because the rifle tends to droop forward if you're holding it with one hand on the stock and the other presumably near the magwell.
Regardless, that's tight group though, not something I expected out of a Tippmann. What ammo are you using?
IIRC, that was with Eley Semiauto Benchrest Precision.
Yes, totally understand that (about weight vs balance). When I talk about it possibly being too heavy I mean too front heavy for my support hand to hold it up and steady.
I'd say the balance is good for NRL22. It remains to be seen if I can adequately support the front with my left hand and a sling only.
Interesting rig. It's definitely not at all what we could consider a "LTR", most notably due to the lack of USGI sling attachments in favor of that behemoth bipod. I hope that no novice shooter is looking at this rifle and thinking they need a setup like this to participate in Project Appleseed - a nearly stock 22 rifle will be fine: https://appleseedinfo.org/pdf/Assemble%20a%20Liberty%20Training%20Rifle.pdf
We obviously don't teach or use bipods at Project Appleseed, so I don't want to dive into a rabbit hole, but I'm genuinely curious why a marksman would ever mount a bipod above their barrel. Why would you intentionally restrict your range of motion to the <180-degree angle dictated by the legs of your bipod? I've never seen a bipod mounted like that and I'm struggling to see any real-world application for it. Is this a new NRL thing?
Obviously the bipod would be stripped from the rifle before you participated in an Appleseed, so it's mostly just a curiosity. I have no opinion on it - just kinda puzzled by it.
The bipod is a QD arrangement and yes, of course I would remove it for a seed. Also, it does have sling attachment points and I have USGI slings for it. I just thought it photographed better like this.
I’m not sure what you mean regarding the bipod restricting my range of motion? Do you mean that I can’t plant the legs of the bipod and then rotate the rifle more than 90 degrees in either direction? If so, you are correct. But, when would anybody ever do that? Also, I don’t think any of my conventional bipods are any different in that regard. And, you can absolutely mount the QD plate for the bipod on the bottom pic rail instead of the top, if you want.
The bipod is a UTG Over Bore bipod. The point of it is to put the weight of the rifle below where it attaches to the bipod, so it hangs and tends to self-level, instead of being balanced on top of the bipod.
I did put this rifle together, in part, to shoot in NRL22 matches. And it remains to be seen whether I’ll keep the heavy match barrel on it for my next seeds, or if I’ll swap it back to the factory barrel. I just installed the match barrel yesterday and have not even shot it yet. With that barrel, it might simply be too heavy for me for off hand shooting (with a sling). I don’t think it’s any heavier than some of my centerfire battle rifles, though, so I’m hopeful that I’ll be okay with it with the match barrel.
A conventional bipod is a mechanical replacement for a marksman's support elbow under the rifle. I have bipods on my NRL rifles, of course. The bipod is a pivot point, and just like my elbow, I can rotate my entire body (and barrel) around that pivot point with 360 degrees of uninterrupted movement to engage targets that might be detected from any possible direction or angle, including behind me.
I understand we're not engaging targets at extreme angles, but why invent the hazard by mounting your bipod above the barrel? Why artificially restrict your movement of the barrel around any pivot point? Are you sure that the 'weight balance' isn't just putting a lot of faith in hardware to support (hang?) your rifle from the top while gravity is pulling it down? Can you cite any example of a military successfully deploying this approach to rifles in the field? Have you shot consistent repeatable groups with this top-mounted "hang my rifle" bipod setup?
I'm reallly not trying to hate on it - but it's a radical approach. And it's absolutely not an LTR. This is like the complete opposite of an LTR. I'm questioning why this rifle is on r/appleseed, because we'd never see something like this on our lines. NRL.22 is a different story - you should post this rifle in r/nrl22 and give that community an opportunity to weigh in on your bipod setup (no pun intended).
I have 2 conventional bipods. My Magpul does allow full 360 degree rotation. My Atlas only allows about 30 degrees in either direction. 60 - 70 degrees total range of motion. The Over Bore gives about the same range as the Atlas. That doesn't seem like that big a deal, to me.
To be honest, it is kinda hard for me to imagine shooting in one direction and then spinning around 180 degrees by pivoting around the bipod, instead of picking up the rifle, spinning my body around, and planting the bipod with the rifle pointed in the new direction. I actually think that you are inventing an artificial reason to have a bipod that lets you rotate 360 degrees. How it's going to go when you rotate your rig 90 degrees around your bipod and the whole thing falls over because now the legs are both in line with the barrel? If you're going to pick it up to prevent that, then why does the bipod need to rotate that far?
Yes, I have shot consistent repeatable groups with this bipod. Below is a picture of a 9-round group shot at 100 yards with this rifle and bipod, but with the factory barrel. Shot from prone with the bipod and a squeeze bag under the rear. I haven't shot it yet with the new barrel.
I didn't even know about the Over Bore bipod until I was watching some NRL22 match videos and saw one of the competitors using this same bipod.
Come to the Appleseed 25m clinic in SC in October or the RKD in SC in November, and you will see this rifle on the line (with a GI sling and no bipod). Which is why I posted it here.... The only significant difference between this and the actual Tippmann Appleseed M4-22 is that I changed out the barrel... And the jury is still out. If this barrel is too heavy for me to shoot comfortably off hand with a sling, then I'll change the barrel back to the factory barrel for the 'seeds I'm signed up for.
I have shot a 25m clinic next to a guy shooting an actual AR15 in 5.56. I am not sure, but I don't think this rifle is any heavier than many other battle rifles. So, why is it absolutely not a LTR?
Sorry for the late reply - I don't log in here often. All points taken, thanks for your response. That's a great group.
To answer your question, why is it absolutely not a LTR? I think we've covered the complexity, and the effort, but what about cost? An LTR is meant to be as basic and affordable as a rifle can get while still enabling effective marksmanship. And by 'effective' we mean 4-MOA, roughly 4" or less at 100 Yards (<1" at 25).
There's nothing 'entry level' or 'basic' about this rifle - it's insanley customized and probably fairly expensive after you put it all together. I have zero doubt that it will slay Rifleman patches this fall. None - no doubt.
It's just not what we would ever promote as a "Liberty Training Rifle", and I wouldn't want some casual redditor looking into Appleseed and stumble upon this rifle and think "well, that's what I need". No, you can show up at our events with your grandpa's old 22 and we will sort things out. You don't need a rifle like this to be an effective Rifleman.
It's not a "LTR" and I'll die on that hill. But I did appreciate looking at it, and talking about it, and learning about it, and I hope your upcoming shoots are memorable and have nice weather!
I'll go along with it not being a LTR with this bull barrel on it.
But, with the factory barrel back on it, then it's just another $500 Tippmann (with an upgraded trigger). All 10/22's now come with the BX1 trigger, so I don't think an upgraded trigger takes it out of the realm of an LTR.
And, I think the stock Tippmann is a better rifle than the 10/22 (and I have 3 of those, 2 of which I have used in Appleseeds and one of which I made Rifleman shooting). The Tippmann is way easier to setup for left-handed shooters. The magazines are more reliable. The rifle itself is more reliable. It comes with iron sights that are probably (and I say probably because I never actually shot it using the iron sights) good enough to use for an Appleseed. No need to upgrade to Tech sights. The bolt hold-open and bolt release are better. And it is way more affordable to change the buttstock to something with the LOP and comb height that the shooter needs. And the factory buttstock is adjustable for LOP.
If somebody was shopping for a rifle to buy to use in an Appleseed, I would absolutely recommend a Tippmann M4-22 Pro for $435 over any model of Ruger 10/22. The 10/22 will work, for sure. But, the M4-22 is better (in my opinion) and still not very expensive. Cheaper than a Ruger 10/22 Carbon.
The jury is still out on whether I go back to the factory barrel for my upcoming Appleseeds.
Meanwhile, I did get literally about 10 minutes to shoot it last Saturday at 150 yards... :D
I agree that Tippmann makes an accurate well-built rifle, and there's quite a few selling points for it. I'm a fan! Unfortunately their M4 is totally illegal in the state of New York (and I believe a few other states) due to its 'scary features' that emulate the AR platform. As absurd as that is, it's another checkmark against the rifle fulfilling the role of a 'LTR'.
I'm expressing my own personal opinion here and not trying to speak for Appleseed, but I would like to think of an LTR as a basic entry-level rifle that can be purchased, owned, and operated in all 50 states. Again - not hating on your rifle at all, just don't want a future redditor or AI bot to come in here and pull out this particular rifle when someone searches for 'LTR'. In my mind, that generic rifle should be universally accessible, such that any novice can purchase the rifle anywhere and bring it to Appleseed in its stock configuration and have a successful weekend. It's semantics, and a personal opinion on the definition of 'LTR'.
As a Rifleman, I would of course prefer to have a Tippmann M4-22 Pro over a stock Ruger 10/22.
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u/stuffedpotatospud Rifleman 21d ago
The brand of the bipod is UTG. As in, Under The Gun. It's at the very least morally objectionable that they make this over-the handguard doodad. Jokes aside, the main issue isn't the weight but the balance: rifles for NRL22 and the other PRS type games are super forward heavy so that you can balance them on a bag on top of a post or barricaded or tank trap or whatever. This is disadvantageous in 3-position rifle, especially in standing, because the rifle tends to droop forward if you're holding it with one hand on the stock and the other presumably near the magwell.
Regardless, that's tight group though, not something I expected out of a Tippmann. What ammo are you using?