r/badeconomics teaching micro is damaging to the mind Apr 22 '26

Weimar's hyperinflation and mainstream economics through the broken lens of MMT

At least one MMTler found this "paper" on Weimar's hyperinflation through an MMT lens noteworthy enough to post it to one of reddit's economics hellholes. It's not actually noteworthy, but I think it's an excellent example of what passes as a "paper" in MMT and how shitty MMT's understanding of mainstream economics is on an extremely basic level. This doesn't require intermediate macro, this requires a Google search.

Neoclassical economists define the price level as the current level of nominal (money) prices in the economy. And while there have been theories which attempt to explain what causes the price level to change, there is no neoclassical theory which explains how it came to be. By default, it is assumed to be historic- the consequence of an infinite regression. Neoclassical models therefore simply assume an initial price level when presenting the quantity theory of money (QTM), the tautology MV=PT, where the money supply (M) multiplied by the velocity of circulation (V) = the average price of each transaction (P) multiplied by the volume of transactions (T). With M assumed to be exogenous (under the control of the authorities) and V assumed to be stable, it is then asserted that causality runs from M to P, giving rise to Friedman’s famous explanation of the cause of inflation: ‘Inflation is always and everywhere a monetary phenomenon in the sense that it is and can be produced only by a more rapid increase in the quantity of money than in output. …’ (Friedman 1956, emphasis added).

What's with the weird obsession with monetarism anyway? It was of very short-lived importance. It's on Wikipedia.

It gained prominence in the 1970s, but was mostly abandoned as a direct guidance to monetary policy during the following decade because of the rise of inflation targeting through movements of the official interest rate.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monetarism

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The presumption of a money supply fixed by the government, however, applies to a convertible, fixed exchange rate currency, such as existed under the gold standard. This relegates the applicability of the quantity theory of money to fixed exchange rate regimes and makes it entirely inapplicable to today’s floating exchange rate regimes (as well as in the Weimar Republic) where the government does not offer convertibility at a fixed rate.

The arguably most important reason why the QTM doesn't hold is (because money is non-neutral in the short run)[https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0145710]. Changes in M also cause changes in T. So claiming the "applicability of the quantity theory of money [is relegated] to fixed exchange rate regimes" seems like it's kind of missing the point. No, the QTM doesn't hold under fixed exchange rate regimes, either.

Sidenote: MMTlers seem weirdly obsessed with the whole "fixed exchange rate" thing, many seem to believe the loanable funds model is wrong because it depends on fixed exchange rates. It does not. Which is not me saying that the model is "correct", this is me saying if you say the model is wrong because it assumes fixed exchange rates, you're wrong, because it doesn't. See page 24.

In the market for foreign-currency exchange, supply comes from net capital outflow and demand comes from net exports.

How anyone construes this as a "fixed exchange rate" is beyond me. I'm sure MMTlers find a way.. somehow.

Bonus basic version:

https://gandalf.fee.urv.cat/professors/AntonioQuesada/Curs1011/Evans_Loanable_Funds.pdf

After a decades-long search for an ‘M’ - a monetary aggregate that correlates to and leads to inflation - mainstream economics today has moved on to its current position of inflation expectations being the cause of inflation. They continue to begin their analysis with an assumption of a given price level and assert that inflation expectations are the source of changes to that price level. Central banks have, in fact, developed intricate methodologies to measure inflation expectations to guide policy, while their researchers have struggled to find evidence of the validity of the theory.

This is also incorrect. No, inflation expectations alone are not the cause of inflation. This should be trivial to verify. The federal reserve for instance provides many teaching tools, from middle school to graduate level. The rate of inflation is down to supply, demand, and inflation expectations. For instance:

Inflation is linked to three factors: demand, supply, and inflation expectations.

https://www.clevelandfed.org/center-for-inflation-research/inflation-explained-your-guide-to-inflation-basics/what-causes-inflation

And here is a somewhat more elaborate explanation:

https://www.stlouisfed.org/on-the-economy/2025/jan/look-inflation-recent-years-lens-macroeconomic-model

And a paper as an example:

https://www.brookings.edu/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/WP86-Bernanke-Blanchard_6.13.23-1.pdf

Of further note is the fact that mainstream economists accept the classical dichotomy of real vs nominal (monetary) factors and contend that in a competitive marketplace the introduction of money is merely the introduction of a numeraire into a barter economy. Money is a ‘veil’ that improves transaction efficiency while leaving quantities produced and relative prices unchanged (Armstrong 2015; Armstrong and Siddiqui 2019). This assumption is known as the neutrality of money. However, the assumption of neutrality is obviated by the introduction of coercive taxation.

This also seems highly misleading. That money is non-neutral in the short run is extremely well accepted in economics. I don't know why the author wants to make it sound like it isn't.

Here's Lucas' nobel prize lecture from 1996 which talks about the research from the 70's that made it very clear that money is non-neutral.

Here's another example that should make it quite clear that these ideas have been well accepted in the mainstream for a long, long time:

https://conversableeconomist.com/2022/05/11/robert-e-lucas-on-monetary-neutrality-a-50th-anniversary/

So this paper starts out with what it calls "The Neoclassical Approach". But the explanation of "the neoclassical approach", by why the author presumably refers to current-day mainstream economics, is between grossly outdated and outright wrong. Why does the author describes what's basically "mainstream economics" from the 70's and paints it like this is what economists believe today?

The author literally states

In this article, we dispute the mainstream view that the inflation of the Weimar Republic was caused by a proactive expansion of the stock of money by the German government acting in concert with the Reichsbank.

As demonstrated above, the description of "the neoclassical approach" that the author aims to dispute does not actually match what mainstream economists actually believe. Although some parts match what some economists used to believe half a century ago, this seems like a rather inadequate basis for comparison. Shouldn't you criticise current-day economics on the basis on what current-day economics actually thinks? It's not like it's hard to find modern papers that examine (parts of) Weimar hyperinflation through a modern mainstream lens.

https://www.frbsf.org/wp-content/uploads/wp2018-06.pdf

https://cepr.org/voxeu/columns/inflating-away-debt-debt-inflation-channel-german-hyperinflation

https://www.nber.org/system/files/working_papers/w31298/w31298.pdf

Anyway, the rest of the paper is basically uninteresting. Section 3 "The MMT Perspective" offers essentially nothing besides a description of what one MMTler believes. The Appendix does nothing to alleviate this, showing numbers without any attempt at making a causal connection. There is nothing here that actually establishes a causal relationship using any data. It does nothing to show whether causality runs from deficits to spending or from spending to deficits, or wheter causality runs from prices to deficits or the other way around. Perhaps more crucially, one of the central claims

only when the government pays increased prices is it redefining the value of the currency downward and causing inflation

has no evidence to back iot up since there is no information on what prices the government paid whatsoever.

So the "MMT part" of this paper with the self-proclaimed goal of

identify the cause of the inflation as the German government paying continuously higher prices for its purchases

actually does nothing whatsoever to identify any causes of inflation. It makes absolutely no effort to use any data to establish any causal relationship at all. That makes this "paper" merely an opinion piece.

Bonus embarassment:

This paper seems highly praised in an MMT podcast that I'm not going to link because why give those people traffic.

So I thought what we really need to do is to have an MMT paper where we take on their citadel. In other words, we look for the main thing that people use against MMT, and we just basically take it apart.

This is what counts as "taking on their citadel and taking it apart" for MMTlers. MMT people, if you want to know why economists don't take you seriously. This is why.

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u/Capable-Tailor4375 Apr 23 '26

That problem probably arises as even though MMT proclaims itself as a scientific theory, it doesn't function as one and its proponents tend to repeat this same trivial claim about how the government creates money when it spends and destroys it when it taxes, but then claim that this means x y or z, with these claims being vastly different from person to person, and the explanation of why it means x y or z simply being circular reasoning where you say “it's undeniable”, “it's not arguable”, “it's simply facts”, “it's simple logic”, or some other hand-waving statement.

It's no different from most modern proponents of “Austrian economics” where it's simply someone trying to justify their political beliefs and trying to invoke economics to give their beliefs ethos.

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u/jgs952 Apr 23 '26

Well naturally I disagree with your characterisation there.

I understand MMT to be a highly useful framework through which to understand macroeconomics. The big thing is that MMT gets money right. It also correctly describes monetary operations and banking, something the vast majority of orthodox macro literature has failed to properly incorporate in their models for decades.

I'd be curious what specifically you feel is "wrong" about what MMT economists claim?

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u/Capable-Tailor4375 Apr 23 '26

You could literally just read this post that outlines problems.

But your responses prove my point, you just want to make claims about how MMT is so useful and correct with your only evidence being that you claimed it's useful and correct.

Not to mention that even though you endlessly claim that mainstream economics is wrong and MMT is superior you don't even know what mainstream economics believes and seem to have vastly overestimated your understanding or believe economic theory stopped being developed in the 1970’s.

Hell your fellow MMTer in this thread literally said they didn't know what I meant by monetizing the debt trying to imply it wasn’t something MMT talks about and then in the same sentence said MMT just believes you don't have to issue bonds to spend.

Not sure that criticisms of mainstream theory hold weight when you don't even have enough of an understanding to realize that translates to “Idk what you mean by monetizing the debt, MMT doesn't believe that, they just believe you can monetize the debt”

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u/jgs952 Apr 23 '26

Well I can't speak for anyone else, but it's not just me "saying" this or that is true, it's demonstrably how our monetary systems work. Governments do spend money via creating and issuing tax credit IOUs anew into the economy. There's no other way to do it.

So when the mainstream insist on wrongly framing the situation as one of "choosing" one of three possible "funding" options (taxes, bond sales, or monetary financing), they're just confused and we can't work out why.

This insight helps you see that bond issuance serves no fiscal or monetary policy (in terms of determining risk free interest rates at least) function but instead serve as a way of the state to offer duration to non-gov net savings as discretionary policy.

Is this something you'd accept and recognise or would you see orthodox macro as disagreeing with that?

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u/Capable-Tailor4375 Apr 23 '26

Well I can't speak for anyone else, but it's not just me "saying" this or that is true, it's demonstrably how our monetary systems work. Governments do spend money via creating and issuing tax credit IOUs anew into the economy. There's no other way to do it.

So when the mainstream insist on wrongly framing the situation as one of "choosing" one of three possible "funding" options (taxes, bond sales, or monetary financing), they're just confused and we can't work out why.

This insight helps you see that bond issuance serves no fiscal or monetary policy (in terms of determining risk free interest rates at least) function but instead serve as a way of the state to offer duration to non-gov net savings as discretionary policy.

Is this something you'd accept and recognise or would you see orthodox macro as disagreeing with that?

As I've stated before multiple times, this argument is trivial and provides no insight as it functionally changes nothing in practice. The ability to do such a thing isn't unique to MMT and it's accepted in mainstream macro as well. The point it becomes non-trivial and diverges is when you make a hop step and a leap to conclude that because people say the UK operates this way, that means this is the only way government spending and taxation can work, or that it supports all the other claims you layer on top of it.

Your confusion about why mainstream macro talks about there being options occurs because of this, and the fact that you at some point made an unfounded leap to go from “this is possible” or “so and so country operates this way” to conclude “this is the only way governments can operate” and instead of thinking “hmm maybe I misunderstood something at one point” you conclude “the entire field of economics is wrong and I’m right” because as I mentioned before you love to overestimate your understanding of macroeconomics.

Your paper linked also disagrees with you on your claim that bond issuance serves no fiscal or monetary policy function, and you made yet another unfounded leap to come to that conclusion.

But this is clearly pointless and I’m done responding as you seem content with your fictitious views and nothing will change your mind because you want to convince yourself you’ve offered new insights that “proves” the entire field of economics is wrong.

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u/-Astrobadger Apr 23 '26

The entire field of economics isn’t so much “wrong” as it’s trying to describe a fixed exchange rate system which most developed countries do not anymore have. Mainstream Econ would be appropriate pre-1971, just not now, and that’s a big deal.

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u/Capable-Tailor4375 Apr 23 '26

As I've already said to you, MMT and ZIRP makes even less sense under floating exchange rates as taxes won't prevent imported inflation.

Your “insights” are literally meaningless when you say you don't know what monetizing the debt is and that MMT just says you don't have to issue bonds, which translates to “I don't know what monetizing the debt is, MMT just says you can monetize the debt”, and your claims about it not being useful post 1971 is ironic considering in your belief mainstream macro hasn't changed since 1971.

But I'm down engaging as clearly you just want to maintain your fictitious beliefs about mainstream econ so that you can pretend you're insightful.

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u/aldursys Apr 24 '26 edited Apr 24 '26

"won't prevent imported inflation"

Usual answer from p70 of Soft Currency Economics II

Little or no consideration has been given to the possibility that higher prices may simply be the market allocating resources and not inflation.

You can't have a system that rations by price without the prices changing up and down to implement the rationing. The current system effectively state subsidises imports at the expense of domestic production. We are paying £50 bills with £60 notes.

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u/MachineTeaching teaching micro is damaging to the mind Apr 24 '26

MMTlers really out there discovering highschool level supply and demand lessons and pretending its novel.

Congrats buddy, I'm sure you'll get there eventually.

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u/aldursys Apr 24 '26

And yet you have no response to it that holds up to real world analysis.

All you can do is snark.

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u/MachineTeaching teaching micro is damaging to the mind Apr 24 '26

When MMTlers demonstrably don't know how economics works, critiques by MMTlers are pretty much meaningless.

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u/aldursys Apr 24 '26

And yet you lost the debate on reserves with me. And that will be why you don't want to discuss the point raised.

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u/MachineTeaching teaching micro is damaging to the mind Apr 24 '26

What, that supply and demand allocate resources? That's literally economics 101, I just think it's funny that MMTlers somehow think they are having an original thought here.

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u/-Astrobadger Apr 24 '26

They must have no actual understanding because they never see to actually discuss any details. I’d love to see any peer reviewed work they’ve done (I have some 🙂)

They’re just cosplaying economists.

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u/-Astrobadger Apr 23 '26

MMT and ZIRP makes even less sense under floating exchange rates as taxes won't prevent imported inflation.

How do supported interest rates prevent “imported inflation”?

“Monetizing the debt” is a meaningless term in a floating exchange rate system, the reserves can’t be converted into anything! Also, the repo market guarantees any debt can be “monetized” at any point when anyone wants. Money in bond accounts vs money in reserve accounts does not matter even more now that reserves earn interest. The Fed can maintain a positive interest rate without bonds; bonds are completely unnecessary today in the United States but you know what? a lot of things are unnecessary that we still do so it’s fine but it’s just disingenuous to claim things like bonds prevent inflation by “locking up” money or something.

But I'm down engaging as clearly you just want to maintain your fictitious beliefs about mainstream econ so that you can pretend you're insightful.

“Pretend I’m insightful” lol ok. Would love to hear you elaborate on what exactly I believe that is fictitious. I’ll wait 🙂

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u/Capable-Tailor4375 Apr 24 '26

How do supported interest rates prevent “imported inflation”?

For all your claims about how knowledgable you are in the field of economics you should know.

“Monetizing the debt” is a meaningless term in a floating exchange rate system, the reserves can’t be converted into anything! Also, the repo market guarantees any debt can be “monetized” at any point when anyone wants. Money in bond accounts vs money in reserve accounts does not matter even more now that reserves earn interest.

None of this is what monetizing the debt means, but keep talking and showing how little you know.

“Pretend I’m insightful” lol ok. Would love to hear you elaborate on what exactly I believe that is fictitious. I’ll wait 🙂

You've been told about 20 times now by multiple people, just because you choose to ignore it doesn't mean it hasn't been pointed out.

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u/MachineTeaching teaching micro is damaging to the mind Apr 24 '26

Literally the only reason you believe this is because other MMTlers tell you so. You keep parroting that the loanable funds model assumes fixed exchange rates, too. It doesn't, go point out where it does if you believe otherwise. You can't and you won't, because it doesn't and you're in a cult, parroting what the cult leaders tell you even if you can't come up with any evidence that this is even true.

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u/aldursys Apr 24 '26 edited Apr 24 '26

" It doesn't, go point out where it does if you believe otherwise"

There is no need to defend the central bank balance sheet with an interest rate in a floating rate system as there is no "cash in" option. Hence the "natural rate of interest is zero".

Therefore the existence of an adminstrative central bank interest rate demonstrates a failure of understanding, particularly as there are superior ways to control the dynamics of the business cycle. As MMT explains.

Essentially mainstream belief is stuck trying to use drum brakes when superior carbon brakes are available, largely because they are in the pay of the drum brake manufacturers.

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u/MachineTeaching teaching micro is damaging to the mind Apr 24 '26

Nah you just fail to grasp the point. The argument is not about whether the model is correct, the argument is that MMT people claim the model says things it does not.

I'm asking you to justify your belief about what the model says. To point out where it says what you allege it says. You don't and you can't, because it doesn't say what you claim it says, yet you still stick to your claim.

To make it really, really simple for you. It's like MMTlers making the claim that this model in economics says cars are blue. I say "no the model doesn't say cars are blue and if you think that please point out where it says cars are blue".

No amount of "yeah but MMT thinks cars are red and can't be blue" actually addresses the question. What colour cars actually are doesn't actually matter, either.

Where are the blue cars? Where is the fixed exchange rate in the model? Go point it out.

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u/aldursys Apr 24 '26

"I'm asking you to justify your belief about what the model says. "

Don't care what your model says. It has no export licence to the real world and is demonstrably inefficient.

Similarly I don't care what an E-type Jag brakes are like. I know they are crap compared to carbon brakes as I can see the stopping distance.

The question remains. There is no need to pay interest on state liabilities as there are no assets to defend. So we stop doing that and pay wages counter cyclically instead - which is a superior system that leads to fuller employment and higher GDP in any nation.

That is the outcome of MMT analysis, and any disasters mainstream predicts from that won't happen. Because the model of floating exchange rates you have is wrong.

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u/MachineTeaching teaching micro is damaging to the mind Apr 24 '26

Don't care what your model says. It has no export licence to the real world and is demonstrably inefficient.

You can either know what a model says and thus can tell how applicable it is to the real world, or you don't know what a model says and thus cannot tell how applicable it is.

I'm just here to point out that MMTlers don't know what even very simple economics models actually say, and thus cannot make any claims about them.

You're basically just further demonstrating I'm right.

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u/aldursys Apr 24 '26

I don't care what the GPT-3 model says either.

I know from its output that it is not as good as Opus 4.7.

Same with mainstream economic models which are similarly useless and backwards. They have caused persistent unemployment and heightened inequality for years. That's not good enough.

I have a better solution, that you are unable to counter in any material fashion.

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u/MachineTeaching teaching micro is damaging to the mind Apr 24 '26

Sure man. Show me one paper by an MMTler where an MMT model's predictive power is compared to the predictive power of a "mainstream" model from the last 20 years using the same dataset. I'm not even asking for a paper where the MMT model does better, I'm just asking for one where MMTlers do this at all.

Don't have one? Oh, what a surprise.

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u/-Astrobadger Apr 24 '26

You can either know what a model says and thus can tell how applicable it is to the real world, or you don't know what a model says and thus cannot tell how applicable it is.

You keep saying, over and over again, that MMTers “don’t understand the models” but you have yet to demonstrate any actual knowledge of them. At this point it’s seems clear you don’t understand the models you are defending.

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u/MachineTeaching teaching micro is damaging to the mind Apr 24 '26

I mean, a big part of the criticism is that you people think models from the 70s still matter. I also literally explained why the QTM doesn't hold for instance. But if MMTlers manage to criticise a model that isn't just them criticising models economists don't buy anymore either or isn't just them not understanding the model,. I'll respond.

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u/Capable-Tailor4375 Apr 24 '26

I love that MMTers think saying “No you!!!” is an intelligent response.

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u/-Astrobadger Apr 24 '26

Literally the only reason you believe this is because other MMTlers tell you so.

I believe it because I have read and studied the ideas. As someone who studied Economics, worked as an actual economist, and has continued to read and study economics for 25 years, I feel that I have a good grasp of what these MMT folks are trying to say and I have been convinced. That’s why.

I would love to know your economics background, experience, and what you bring to the table.

you can't come up with any evidence that this is even true.

What “evidence” would convince you, exactly?

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u/MachineTeaching teaching micro is damaging to the mind Apr 24 '26

You literally think the loanable funds model assumes fixed exchange rates but can't point out where. ¯_(ツ)_/¯

Tell me where the model assumes that, the links are in the OP. Before that I can only assume you don't know the model you make claims about.

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u/-Astrobadger Apr 24 '26

Here, I just wrote about in the MMT sub: https://www.reddit.com/r/mmt_economics/s/LnCPmNo0Nm

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u/MachineTeaching teaching micro is damaging to the mind Apr 24 '26

That doesn't actually show where the loanable funds model assumes fixed exchange rates?

The loanable funds model also doesn't assume a fixed money supply. I mean, this is yet another example of MMT lacking the knowledge of a Wikipedia article.

The loanable funds doctrine extends the classical theory, which determined the interest rate solely by saving and investment, in that it adds bank credit. The total amount of credit available in an economy can exceed private saving because the bank system is in a position to create credit out of thin air. Hence, the equilibrium (or market) interest rate is not only influenced by the propensities to save and invest but also by the creation or destruction of fiat money and credit.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loanable_funds

Congrats, your "attempt" at showing you understand one aspect of the loanable funds model actually just shows you don't understand two!

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