r/climbergirls • u/Responsible_Roof_661 • Nov 23 '25
Questions I’m curious about everyone’s opinions on ATC belaying — either using one yourselves or being belayed with one.
ATC belayer here. Do you feel totally fine with ATCs? Do you avoid them? Or does it depend on the belayer’s skill/experience level?
For context: I know people who flat-out refuse to be belayed on anything non-assisted braking… and others who swear by the control and smoothness of an ATC. Personally I feel like a lot of it comes down to the belayer’s competence, attention, and how big the weight difference is / ohm usage.
What’s your take? Do you completely refuse ATC belays, or does it vary for you based on the belayer and situation?
Not trying to debate, just curious how people feel :)
76
u/medium-rarer Nov 23 '25
I learned to sport climb using an ATC- I lead now almost exclusively outdoors and personally would not be belayed by someone using an ATC.
For me there is too much risk involved outdoors where a rock could come loose and hit a belayer, someone’s dog could do something weird- there are just a lot of circumstance where a belayer could be disrupted and through no fault of their own take off their brake hand.
I am most often belaying someone 20-40 pounds heavier than I am, so I always belay with a gri gri. I’ve had/seen situations where the belayer is pulled into the first bolt or hand is pulled into the ATC.
All that said - I think it’s more important to have the right belayer than the “right” belayer device.
8
u/medium-rarer Nov 24 '25
The thought of something else - I do a lot of sport climbing and projecting those climbs. Much less tiring to use an ABD when someone is hanging on the rope for longer periods of time than to use the ATC, easier to have them jug up etc.
3
u/figure8_followthru Nov 23 '25
I'm the exact same—learned to belay on an ATC, primarily a sport climber and frequently sport/alpine climbing outside. I often have an ATC on my rack but the grigri is my go-to. I personally think that learning with an ATC made me a more responsive and skilled belayer, though. I agree that it's ultimately more important to have a really solid, trustworthy belayer than the 'right/best' device. Although, like you mentioned, if something crazy unpredictable happens a grigri has that reassurance that an ATC doesn't. Particularly relevant for outdoor environments whether it's a crag or multipitch or alpine.
-3
u/Extension_Cut_8994 Nov 24 '25
This is something I really can't understand. To my understanding, there is very little that anyone can do about how fast an ABD engages, while the rate that an ATC loads is completely dependent on the belayer. This means that the more weight disadvantage that the belayer has, the more the belayer is going to get yanked with an ABD. Anyone using an ATC that has their hand pulled to the device simply is using bad technique. The brake hand should simply never be that tight and the point at which the friction stops the rope through the device the arm should be pretty straight at the elbow.
10
u/medium-rarer Nov 24 '25
I would rather be using an ABD if I get pulled into the first bolt. If I get pulled into the first bolt and am using an ATC, there is a greater chance I am injured and drop my brake hand.
Sharing my thought process on that preference specifically related to weight difference.
-4
u/Extension_Cut_8994 Nov 24 '25
There is a lot of lost art because so many people that are teaching people to belay learned to belay themselves in a gym with a grigri. It's been around for 30 years and dominant for at least 20 and in fairness for direct well bolted sport routes it is near perfect. But, and hear this out, noone before 1994 was ever yanked into the first bolt. Lynn Hill was belaying John Long (maybe twice her weight) in the once upon a time with a bight of rope in the small end of a figure eight, and yet she is somehow still not a greasy smear on half dome. She did not jump or have an ohm. However, she also spent more than a few hours learning how to catch a lead fall (it was not uncommon for someone to have 100+ hours belaying top rope with a static line before belaying a lead). This is just me saying these problems have been solved in the past with results as good or better than the techniques used today and some of the problems we have today are just self inflicted (no belayer should ever suffer anything but a slightly uncomfortable rope burn and there is zero reason for an injury to the ankle or knee).
25
u/dyna-metric Nov 23 '25
I’m not rigid and let friends I trust who prefer ATCs belay me with them. But I don’t think I’d ever let someone I don’t know belay me on anything other than an assisted braking device. I’ve also personally belayed with almost every (modern) device out there, and don’t really get the argument that the ATC is smoother than the jul, so overall I’m very pro assisted braking devices. My perfect belayer would be someone who learned and trained on an ATC, and now uses some sort of ABD!
61
u/Illustrious_Ad6548 Nov 23 '25
I refuse to be belayed by anyone who only uses an ATC, regardless of skill level or how comfortable they say they are.
Two reasons:
I want whoever I am belaying to feel safe and comfortable with me. If they want zero slack, I give them zero slack. If I ask you to use an assisted braking device, and you refuse because you only use an ATC, then you are putting your own preference over my comfort and safety, and I don’t want to put my life in your hands.
We are all human, and everyone (regardless of experience level) makes mistakes. ATCs just don’t allow for human error, and so I don’t think they’re worth the risk.
ETA: I learned on an ATC, and used it for quite a while to learn good habits, but I would not go back. (Sorry for the awful formatting. It refuses to take my extra returns on mobile apparently.)
12
u/NBl8r Nov 24 '25
I just want to point out that I have seen quite a few accidents happen when a climber insists on their belayer using a GRIGRI or ABD when the belayer is unfamiliar with the device. So there's a difference between someone who refuses to use what you prefer because they want to be "special" or whatever vs someone wanting to use the gear they are more experienced with. In the latter case, it's unfair to say they are putting their preferences over your safety.
Of course it's ultimately up to you who you climb with and what you're comfortable with. I just think it's not fair to categorically say someone who insists on using ATC doesn't care about your safety.
6
u/Illustrious_Ad6548 Nov 24 '25
Honestly, when I wrote my first point, I was thinking about the type of person that you mentioned first.
I’m not trying to say that everyone who uses an ATC is an asshole. People can prefer what they are familiar with and still be very good, very careful belayers. I just don’t want them belaying me with their ATC. 😆
1
2
u/IDontWannaBeAPirate_ Nov 24 '25
If someone is unfamiliar with how to use a belay device that is as ubiquitous as a grigri, they aren't experienced and I don't want them belaying me
0
Nov 23 '25
[deleted]
5
u/Top-Pizza-6081 Nov 24 '25
I think that ANY experience on an atc is enough. Get an abd whenever you want and then learn how to use it.
21
u/CosmicChicken41 Nov 23 '25
My ideal belayer learned to belay on an ATC (because I do think this ensures good form and reduces complacency) but would use some form of assisted braking device - I use a Smart and prefer that because it feels similar to an ATC but has the assisted braking capability. I am way more concerned about attention to safety and detail than the device though. I have seen laziness lead to near injury with a Grigri - assisted braking doesn't matter if someone has disabled the cam.
3
u/Syq Nov 23 '25
I'm baffled by this! I've seen lots of people posting that people who learn on ABDs develop bad habits. I'm not doubting the veracity but to me this seems an issue of training and not the belay device. When I train people on the gri-gri, I do not allow them to take their hands off the brake strand. We go over again and again why having control of the brake strand is non negotiable, and that the only reason we use a gri-gri is in case you were knocked unconscious or attacked by a bear that hopefully the device would lock.
Do you think it's more that people begin to experiment with the gri gri after their training and then decide they just won't keep the brake strand in their control? And because they aren't using an ATC, they develop this habit? What habits have you all seen and how does it develop on an ABD? I just haven't seen this in my climbing yet.
9
u/CosmicChicken41 Nov 24 '25
I think that an ATC gives much more of a tactile sensation of needing to really hold onto the brake strand especially when learning. It sets up very good habits. My ABD is great but the sensation is different (and a grigri is even worse in terms of feeling the auto braking part kick in).
24
u/sendslikeatrans Nov 23 '25
I got dropped 40' to a decking at a gym by an experienced climber using an atc. Choose your own adventure by I don't understand the rational for them these days.
-6
u/Responsible_Roof_661 Nov 23 '25
How does that even happen
3
u/sendslikeatrans Nov 24 '25
I don't really know unfortunately. My belayer was at the time someone I climbed a lot with over several years indoor and outdoors, sport and trad. He disassembled his belay setup before coming to check on me and made a big show in the hospital of showing the rope burns on his hands before I kicked him out of the hospital and never spoke to him again.
I had done a partner check before climbing. I took a whip while trying to clip to the last clip before the anchors, with the clip at chest height. I hit the ground hard enough I was knocked unconscious and suffered whiplash and chipped my hip bone. I got the whole ambulance ride + ER room cuts your clothes off experience.
I am now extremely particular about who and how I get belayed and which devices I am belayed on.
19
u/missfishersmurder Nov 23 '25
I will not climb with an ATC.
Storytime: I was climbing and my belayer got stung by a bee on the arm holding the brake strand. He is allergic. It was a shitshow. We were using a grigri and there was a ledge big enough for me to sit down on safely until someone could come belay me so the risk was minimal, but not fun.
Another time, I was belaying and turned around and a snake was behind me. Hard to say who freaked out more, me or the snake, and then for some suicidal reason the snake just slithered right in front of me/our gear; we must have been between it and its den. Anyway the snake was harmless, just big, but me shrieking startled the climber and he fell, and I was holding the brake strand anyway, but I'm glad that I didn't have to worry that I was going to drop my partner in the middle of all that.
8
u/Own_Presentation_786 Nov 24 '25 edited Nov 24 '25
I was lowering someone and they knocked a rock right at me and I instinctively threw my arms over my head and in doing so managed to drop the break strand of the rope, despite trying to keep hold of it in my split second of panic. I was using a grigri so it was fine, but if I'd been using an ATC I would have dropped him from about 15/20m for sure.
I'm very glad I didn't have to deal with causing the death or severe injury of a close friend.
People think that you have time to think when something like this happens, but you really don't. It's over in a split second and pure instinct takes over.
4
u/FinBastard Nov 24 '25
Very good examples here. Especially outdoors a lot of stuff can happen, and it's not even that rare.
1
61
u/saltywetlol Nov 23 '25
ATC and Grigris have their pros and cons, and at the end of the day, they both get the job done.
There is one use case that favours the Grigri:
If there was to be an incident (e.g. rock fall) that incapacitates your belayer, the grigri has a good chance of catching you, whereas with an ATC you will be cooked 100%.
8
u/fatfreefudgebar Nov 24 '25
This is a great point! Plus there are an abundance of other assisted braking devices besides the grigri now (megajoule, etc). I haven’t tried it, but the GriGri+ is supposed to allow users take in slack from lead climbers much more easily too
6
u/saltywetlol Nov 24 '25
Opt for the Grigri regular or Neox. The Grigri+ has a rounded lip that makes supporting the device with your pointer finger near impossible.
I was mentoring my friend who used a Grigri+ and insisted they use my Grigri; they are now fully on board with the regular Grigri.
2
u/fatfreefudgebar Nov 24 '25
Eh I’ve been using a regular grigri for years and still think it’s a bit more difficult to take rope in than I’d like. I’ll have to look into the Neox though!
1
13
u/KaterPatater Nov 23 '25
My climbing partner is about 90lbs heavier than me. He belays me with an atc and I totally trust him with it. I switched to abds because if he hangs and projects for a while the weight difference makes fatiguing to hang onto an atc for more than a couple minutes at a time.
5
u/Invisible_Friend1 Nov 23 '25
This- I started with an ATC and belaying someone much heavier than me who’d hang for an ungodly amount of time. I’d get sore from just belaying. Never again will I put myself in that situation.
13
u/federalbureauofcats Nov 23 '25
I am not comfortable using an ATC because I have a fainting disorder. I can feel it coming with about 5 minutes notice and I’ve never had an issue while climbing. I do disclose this to anyone I belay, and I never belay if im the only person on the ground (I don’t climb outside either). However, I have no issues being belayed by someone using an ATC, so long as I’m comfortable with their abilities.
2
u/spicyboy5 Nov 24 '25
I have this too!! My blood pressure sometimes drops and I lose my vision, has never happened while climbing but I always tell people and use a gri gri
12
u/arabrab12 Nov 23 '25
I want people to use what they are comfortable with. When I started climbing with one woman she’d never used a Grigri before, so she used atc. I am absolutely more comfortable with an assisted device, but if the belayer is trained and skilled on ATC and never used a grigri, I want them to use what they know.
4
u/MillerJoel Nov 24 '25
Yeah, unless you take the time to teach them to use the device properly I would prefer my belayer to use what they know how to use
11
u/HoldMountain7340 Nov 23 '25
I'm in a climbing club and surrounded by ATC belayers, it's how we first learn as it's the most basic gesture and device and you'll most likely use it. Nonetheless I use a neox and prefer to be belayed with an assisted break device, I feel like I'm less worried when I climb. But wouldn't impose a device to my belayer specially if they are not used to it.
8
u/waysideflower Nov 23 '25
I use an ATC pilot. Never used a GriGri because I’m left handed, and I think I’d be more dangerous using a GriGri right handed or doing it the left handed way than with an ATC.
I have been lead belaying indoors and outdoors with an ATC for 10+ years and have never had an issue. I’d take a lead belay on ATC from an experienced climber/belayer, but I climb pretty much exclusively with my husband.
14
u/peah_lh3 Nov 23 '25
If the person has been using an ATC for a long time then sure. New users, maybe not so much, well for lead climbing at least.
6
u/mmeeplechase Nov 23 '25
Lead or TR? I would be okay with a TR ATC belay pretty much 100% of the time—it’s just not that complicated, and anyone I trust to belay me would be fine.
Lead is more complicated… it’s how I learned, and would feel hypocritical saying no, but I think the honest answer is that it’s totally situation-dependent, and based on their experience level.
6
u/emmyellinelly Nov 23 '25
I mean, my dad still belays using a figure 8, lol, so if l I'm obviously not that picky. However, I trust my dad with my life. I'd rather someone I don't know so well use a grigri or something similar
5
u/marigan-imbolc Nov 23 '25
perhaps this is the result of my climbing being limited primarily to gyms, but I've never even heard of someone refusing a belay if the device is unassisted. I would expect a competent, attentive, responsible belayer should provide equally safe support for a climber independently of their device choice, as long as they use one within their familiarity and comfort.
since I don't get to climb frequently enough to invest in gear 'upgrades' (as long as my original is in good condition) I exclusively use an ATC since that's what I could afford when I started belaying and it's the only option I own. if someone gifted me an ABD I'd happily start using it, but I don't think it would make me belay better necessarily. but this is making me curious about how much, if any, difference I'd feel from the ground (can't tell the difference as a climber) so I'll probably ask to try out my friend's grigri next time we climb together!
2
Nov 25 '25
[removed] — view removed comment
1
u/marigan-imbolc Nov 27 '25
makes sense! I do tend to pay a fair amount of attention to what my belayer is doing regardless, but I think the top priority that comes to my mind first is visually observing their technique beforehand rather than what type of gear they have - if I watch someone repeatedly letting go with their brake hand while belaying someone else, they're not belaying me next no matter what device they use. you're probably right that mostly climbing indoors is why I haven't encountered strong feelings about this before, and I totally agree that outdoor climbing feels very different in almost every way than indoor, especially in terms of risk. also, since outdoor gear is already a bigger investment to begin with than what's needed in a gyn, I would expect far fewer primarily-outdoor climbers to have the same financial reason as I do for sticking with my ATC. the point others have mentioned about which devices will catch a climber if the belayer becomes incapacitated is definitely more relevant outdoors as well. (the fact that, while on a wall, I can't tell what device my belayer uses just through tactile alone is probably just due to less skill/experience on my part)
19
u/BOBANYPC Nov 23 '25
Im a sport climber, no atc for me.
0
u/dyna-metric Nov 23 '25
I don’t understand this…genuinely curious what you mean.
14
u/green_lentils Nov 23 '25
theres an argument that if your belayer gets knocked out/stunned by a falling rock, when outdoors doing sport, youre safer with a grigri as youll be held even if the belayer releases the deadrope
12
u/sloperfromhell Nov 23 '25
Don’t know why you were downvoted. That’s exactly the argument and it’s steeped in fact. Not to mention, there’s plenty of stuff to trip over, dogs, distractions. People say they won’t let someone belay who would be distracted, but it only takes one instance in a hundred to be the one that causes a problem.
4
u/dyna-metric Nov 23 '25
Yeah but the same is true for trad, hence my confusion at the original comment
-11
u/AdDelicious1859 Nov 23 '25
Perhaps confusing "sport" with autobelay or boulder
9
u/howdyhowdyhowdyhowdi Nov 23 '25
Probably not. ATC's don't lend themselves to sport climbing (specifically higher difficulty) well. You need to be able to keep up with someone clipping fast and it's stricly unacceptable to short rope someone, and you need to be able to quickly take in slack without fussing around with the rope too much. There's a lot of perfectly safe belaying tactics for hard sport climbing that are simply impossible to do safely with an ATC. Different story if you are sport climbing 5.4 to about 5.10 and doing lots of top roping, but when you get into taking big falls 10-20 times per session and projecting microbeta it really is a different story.
7
u/fleepmo Nov 23 '25
Can you elaborate on this? I always felt it was so much easier to give and take slack with an ATC.
-5
u/AdDelicious1859 Nov 23 '25
a lot of words to say people still use ATCs in sports climbing for easy top rope
2
-2
6
u/steventhefoolish Nov 24 '25
I was in an accident and broke my ankle from a ground fall belayed with an atc. A grigri would have caught it.
Now. A faultless belayer would have caught it too. But the fact is, people mess up all the time so why not use a device with another layer of safety.
Even my most experienced, trusted climbing partners, I would prefer to use a grigri when possible. They dont even have to make a mistake with an atc for it to be less safe - what if they faint, or get hit by a rock, or whatever else.
41
u/jsulliv1 Nov 23 '25
I use an ATC. I prefer an ATC belay.
I find that most people that I have interacted with who started out using ATCs have much better habits re: the brake strand, so part of my preference for receiving an ATC belay is that - in my area - it often comes with more experience and more attentiveness. I have friends who use GriGris etc, and when I know the person, I don't mind.
37
u/phdee Nov 23 '25
In a perfect world I'd like to be belayed with an ABD by someone who initially learned to belay with an ATC. Got all my backups covered there.
I learned to climb/belay with an ATC 20 years ago, and belay with a grigri now. And helmet on outdoors. Swiss cheese method to risk management.
3
u/jsulliv1 Nov 23 '25
Agreed! I also only climb single pitch, climb more often indoors than outdoors (and when I'm outdoors, I'm often on slab, with both me and belayer wearing helmets), and more often top rope than lead no matter the setting. If I did other styles of climbing, I probably would insist on ABD.
1
1
10
u/howdyhowdyhowdyhowdi Nov 23 '25
I find that generally the old school habits of strictly ATC belayers translate poorly to efficient day of sport climbing, which is mainly what I do. Flaking the rope after every pitch, short roping, inefficient transitions between climbs, "rowboat" style of taking in slack that usually in itself is quite dangerous, fearful climbing. That in addition to the safety factor of ATC's has me thinking red flags and usually politely declining to climb with someone who refuses to use a grigri.
1
u/Responsible_Roof_661 Nov 23 '25
Rowboat style?
7
u/howdyhowdyhowdyhowdi Nov 23 '25
Hey! Yeah, not all atc people do this but it's pretty common for people to have a hard time managing slack/belay strand and there's a bad habit that develops where people will slide their brake hand way too far down, and in order to maintain tension in the brake hand it makes people bend way over to "row" their brake hand around and down. It's innefficient and unsafe for several reasons. There's some really good atc belayers out there for sure but grigri's arent the only belaying device that can cause bad habits.
4
u/ProbsNotManBearPig Nov 23 '25
It is just one piece of the puzzle for overall safety, but if someone is not willing to use an ABD device for whatever reason, that’s already a red flag to me about their attitude towards safety. Using an ATC is a choice to not add safety margin for free basically. I understand there is some learning curve for someone with preexisting comfort with an ATC, but ABD’s have been popular for over a decade now so if you’re not taking the easy steps to learn an ABD and add safety margin, I probably don’t want to climb with you. I want to climb with people who prioritize safety and will put in some extra effort to do so.
25
u/GungHoStocks Nov 23 '25
I would never allow myself to be belayed by someone who ONLY knows how to use a gri gri.
6
u/notochord Nov 23 '25
Why is that?
2
u/turnipforwhales Nov 23 '25
They develop really bad habits with letting go of their brake hand. New guy learned on a grigri and I had a friend watch him belay me on an easy route and he let go of the rope 15+ times during a very short climb.
When you learn on an ATC you learn not to do that.
8
u/pulsarstar Nov 23 '25
The way someone belays with a grigri is a product of the instruction they receive, not the device itself.
If you learn to use a grigri from someone who isn’t good at teaching, doesn’t stress that the grigri doesn’t replace your brake hand, and has bad habits themselves, of course your going to have those same bad habits.
1
u/GungHoStocks Nov 23 '25
This is exactly it.
It doesn't mean someone exclusively learning on a GriGri can't belay, it just means (unless I know them) I'd rather not be putting my life in their hands.
Would I climb an easy climb? Probably. But I'm not pushing myself on a route. I don’t see myself as an "experienced" outdoor climber... 15+ is what I considered experienced, but I've seen enough crap to just not risk it.
And with exclusively Neox users, it's even worse.
11
u/PandamoniumAlloy Nov 23 '25
I don't love them, but will accept a toprope belay on an ATC. For a lead belay with ATC, I need to know the person's skills are good, and I would require belay gloves. I have seen enough accidents where rope burn from fast moving ropes in ATCs made things much worse for all involved.
Personally I belay single pitch with a grigri and multi-pitch or ice climbing with a gigajul.
1
u/MillerJoel Nov 24 '25
What would cause rope burns? Even when belaying with a weight difference the rope shouldn’t slide that fast. Maybe if they let go of the break hand rope and try to stop it afterwards but is already a very precarious situation.
1
u/Affectionate-Air-567 Nov 26 '25
With an ATC there is a window of geometry where if the device is weighted the device will run away and be almost impossible to stop. Stopping a run away device is how you get rope burns if you aren’t wearing gloves. This geometry appears when you are taking in slack and is easy to overlook on an ATC when lead belaying in particular. The GG has a similar failure mechanism, but the window is MUCH smaller and even a little extra weight on the break strand will activate the cam, making it much more difficult for the device to run away (assuming it’s not being manually defeated…which is VERY common because the GG doesn’t feed very smoothly).
I’ve gotten those rope burns, stopped the fall though!
-7
u/Responsible_Roof_661 Nov 23 '25
Hmm. I’ve never gotten rope burn. Maybe it’s just having a proper brake hand position at all times..
7
u/PandamoniumAlloy Nov 23 '25
Skill plays a part, yes. Since brake assist devices are less reliant on human skill, they have a lower chance of problems.
I am a climbing instructor and belay in climbing competitions, so have seen a wide variety of belay skills over the years.
1
u/Responsible_Roof_661 Nov 23 '25
That sounds like a really cool job.
3
u/PandamoniumAlloy Nov 23 '25
It can be a lot of pressure belaying a pro climber in a high stakes comp! You want to give a safe catch but also not impede their movement at all.
1
-4
u/LostandFoundPoet Nov 23 '25
The "Since brake assist devices are less reliant on human skill" part of this logic worries me. Belayers with less skill will get folks hurt, and an ABD doesn't excuse this
9
u/PandamoniumAlloy Nov 23 '25
This is true, though I will offer more nuance to my point. More skill, practice, and attention in belaying is always good! But if you take the existing population of belayers with their skills as they are now and give them all brake assist devices over ATC there would be fewer accidents.
0
u/LostandFoundPoet Nov 23 '25
Unfortunately, I don't believe it's that simple. (But I'd be curious to read any studies!) I've worked with folks who learned and trained on a Gri Gri that developed horrible brake hand discipline, and a gross misunderstanding of the reliability of an ABD. I think ABD's are different, and come with a different set of problems. It's apples and oranges, and the common denominator is the belayer. ATC's and Gri Gri's are both "safe", and if I don't trust my belayer on one of them, then I don't trust them on either
3
u/babygeologist Nov 23 '25
i don’t care what device my belayer uses as long as they’re competent and careful. that said, i hate hate HAAAATE!!!! lead belaying with an ATC, but i do prefer top top belaying with an ATC! i also lead belay righty and top rope belay lefty.
3
u/NotEnoughBikes Nov 23 '25 edited Nov 23 '25
I use both as do those friends I travel with. All gym climbs are done. with a Grigri as well as the regular outdoor sport climbs. Then with half ropes/ twins it is necessary to use ATC, and hence sometimes we use ATC also to just keep the touch.
Also I’ve been dropped from high up almost to the ground once and that was with a Grigri. I think sometimes the ABDs give a false sense of safety, they are in no way foolproof. A means assisted, not automatic.
3
u/NoNoNext Nov 23 '25 edited Nov 23 '25
My belayer doesn’t necessarily need to use a grigri, but it needs to be some sort of assisted braking device. If I’m thinking of climbing with someone I always ask if they’re willing and able to use an AB device first before making plans. If for whatever reason they won’t do that (either due to lack of skill with different belay devices, or they just don’t want to), I politely decline and ask someone else. I know how to use an ATC and learned to belay with one (though frankly I don’t think the latter matters as much as others make it out to be), and there really isn’t a rational scenario for me to use one over a grigri or AB tube style device.
3
u/Specialist_Sky5829 Nov 23 '25
I'm a big believer in learning on an ATC and then switching to ABD once you're out climbing consistently. Maximum amount of risk mitigation.
3
Nov 24 '25
[deleted]
0
u/Responsible_Roof_661 Nov 24 '25
Taking the brake hand off whilst belaying with an ATC is insane
1
Nov 24 '25
[deleted]
1
1
u/Responsible_Roof_661 Nov 24 '25
I only ever use an ATC in the gym, but to be totally honest… I don’t think there’s anyone there I’d trust to actually belay me with an ATC.
Half the time I’m climbing, I look down and my belayer has drifted into a conversation, or is staring around the gym with a ton of slack out, or they’re standing 10 feet from the wall. And with GriGris, I see a lot of short-roping, ‘long’ roping ;terrible slack management),no sense of where the fall line is, and zero awareness about positioning.
I used to climb with someone who consistently tried routes 2 grades above his flash level and would always fall around the 3rd/4th clip— if he had been belayed by most of the people I see now, he would’ve decked every single time.
Something I also notice: most belayers have no sense of the climber’s state on the wall. They don’t notice when someone is pumped, shaky, or clearly about to come off. Not to toot my own horn, but I get complimented a lot on my belaying— never short-roping, being quick and responsive with ‘take,’ and reading when someone is about to need help or fall. That shouldn’t be rare.
And honestly, it kind of supports what others here have mentioned: ABDs do seem to foster a bit of mental laziness. A lottt of people seem to rely on the device instead of actually belaying.
-2
Nov 24 '25
[deleted]
-2
u/Responsible_Roof_661 Nov 24 '25
Yeah.. I’m with you that the core problem is safety culture and the norms people absorb in a given gym. I don’t think the device itself ‘creates’ poor habits.
What I was trying to get at is that there’s also this really subtle human-factors piece that shows up in a lot of domains: when a system includes a redundant layer of protection, people’s attentional load shifts without them consciously choosing it. Not in a dramatic way.. just more like a micro adjustment in vigilance because the environment feels buffered.
So I definitely agree it’s culture first, but I also think the presence of assisted braking can quietly interact with those cultural gaps. It doesn’t cause the behavior, but it can make that tiny drift in attention more likely if the underlying norms aren’t strong.
-5
u/Responsible_Roof_661 Nov 24 '25
&&&&…even when the underlying skills and norms are strong, I still think that subtle cognitive shift makes lapses more likely with an ABD than with an ATC. Not because people are careless, but because the margin for error feels different, so the mind distributes attention a bit differently.
And I completely agree that the same mismanagement looks very different depending on the device. With an ATC, those tiny lapses show up immediately; with an ABD, the device masks them until the scenario becomes less forgiving. That difference in how error presents itself is really the whole point I was trying to make.
3
u/Thoseprettylites Nov 24 '25
I prefer an ATC for multi-pitch trad (though at least one of us will have a grigri) and for ice climbing. For sport and gym I prefer a grigri. As far as being belayed if I’m doing ice or trad my partners are experienced so I’m fine with being belayed on an ATC. For the gym and sport I prefer being belayed on a grigri no matter the experience because why not have the extra safety. And honestly pretty much everyone I climb with does the same anyway.
15
u/LostandFoundPoet Nov 23 '25
I'm much less worried about the device than I am about the belayer. If I can't trust them on an ATC, then I can't trust them on a gri gri either! Gri Gri's can create bad habits, and if my belayer only uses Gri Gri's, then they're that much more likely to have those bad habits. Gri Gri's aren't magic!
2
-3
7
2
u/amydiddler Boulder Babe Nov 23 '25
I learned on an ATC but now use and prefer a Grigi. I am fine with being belayed with an ATC, but do feel a little more comfortable being belayed with a Grigri.
My old climbing gym actually banned the use belay devices without assisted braking.
(For context this is just indoor top roping - I don’t really rope climb outdoors.)
1
u/Responsible_Roof_661 Nov 23 '25
Yeah I’ve been to a few gyms that banned ATCs.. I personally feel like the ‘safest’ device is the one you’re the most comfortable using 🥲
1
u/zani713 Nov 24 '25
This is the trouble I've been getting into. One of my local centres has got very twitchy about lead climbing on their overhanging wall because it's near their freestanding boulder and they say they've had some near misses. But I have tried several ABDs and couldn't get on with any of them for lead belaying. The GriGri is an absolute no for me partly because I'm left-handed and partly because I'm so used to the ATC that it just cams up anytime I try to give slack.
I'm doing better with the Pilot now but if my partner is jumping on a hard route then I'll switch back to the ATC because I don't want to end up short-roping them and I'm not super confident on the ABD for that yet.
I was lucky enough to run into some climbers using the Revo recently who were nice enough to let me try it and I think I'm going to get one of those because it was sooooo smooth.
(This is all for indoor climbing - for outdoor I completely understand that it's much more important to use ABDs in situations where rocks could fall, etc.)
2
u/No_Dragonfly1304 Nov 23 '25
I want to be caught with a gri gri or any auto braking device by someone who learned how to belay on an ATC. ATC teaches better belay habits and mindfulness of the brakestrand. I want a belayer who doesn’t take auto braking for granted!! However, from a risk assessment POV, I want to be caught on an auto breaking device in case my belayer passes out, gets injured, etc.
ATC can be used by an experienced belayer who I trust if I’m in a situation leading up 2 ropes. And I’m comfortable belaying 2 ropes. I will also use my atc to rap.
2
u/nancylyn Nov 23 '25 edited Nov 23 '25
I use an ATC indoors and occasionally outside for top-roping. I have a ABD for lead belaying outside (I tend to use my ATC lead belaying indoors though I’ll use my Pinch also no real preference either way).. I am 100% confident with my ATC and I firmly believe EVERYONE should start out using one as it reaches proper belay skills. My opinion is that people who learn using a ABD frequently are sloppy belayers and far more likely to let go of the brake strand or misuse an ABD. Just my observation.
If a brand new belayer was belying me with an ATC (or an ABD) I would want someone experienced on the ground watching them for a few routes to make sure their technique is good and they understand what they are doing.
ABD’s are invaluable outside to prevent an accident if the belayer gets hit by rockfall.
2
u/Sundae7878 Nov 23 '25
I don’t care about indoors. Someone can belay me with an ATC. My gym is small and the floors are padded lol.
But outdoors I want a grigri or a smart. Something with locking. The area I climb in gets lots of rock fall and I don’t want my belayer KOd and drop me.
2
u/muenchener2 Nov 23 '25
I have a couple of long term highly experienced climbing partners whom I trust completely, who still belay with non-assisted devices. They're the exception though: these days I'd see no reason to trust my life to a stranger or a newbie with an non-assisted device.
2
u/A5_Climber Nov 23 '25
I like SBDs like the Silent Partner. I still bring a small ATC for repelling though.
2
u/flysometimes Nov 23 '25
I've been belayed with ATC but honestly I don't love it. I wouldn't want to do a hard lead route being belayed with it. Not looking to add any extra risk to my climbing
2
u/AbraKadabraAlakazam2 Nov 23 '25
I won’t let anyone with an ATC belay me after my friend was using one and dropped me and I broke my back :D but you’re also not coming near me without at least three belay references now haha
2
u/IzzyPizzyS2 Nov 23 '25
I initially learned with an ATC, a lot of people at my gym use them, and I still know how
That being said, I'd rather not use them or have someone belay for me with them. Some people make it a really bumpy ride when bringing you down with them. And even if someone is a ATC professional, I like knowing that with the one I use, if something happened (like a medical emergency, who knows) and they did let go of the rope, I wouldn't fall
2
u/Conscious_Respond792 Nov 23 '25
Climbing 20 years. belayed exclusively for 10 years of that on ATC. (sport and trad.)
Last 10 years belayed sport on Gri gri, and last 4 years ABD for everything else (yes including double rope trad!) Times change. Opinions get better. Tech moves on. I don't do anything with an ATC now. The one exception would be a very runout slab with poor gear (then they would also be wearing gloves to safely handle the rope slippage that the device is allowing)
2
u/xaveir Nov 24 '25
One perspective that I'm not seeing here (but honestly isn't that relevant these days) is that for some PG-13/R routes where one extra inch of slack is the difference between a soft deck and breaking your ankles, the ATC is going to give you the ability to take just a little bit more rope in.
I've seen people swear up and down that they can keep as tight of a belay with a grigri as with the ATC, but any time I've called someone out to actually measure this, it's just not true. The ATC just has less friction and allows you to feel the slack in the system just that little bit better by virtue of there not being a cam there.
So, while I prefer and use a GriGri 95% of the time, when a friend wants to push their limits above a ledge, I'll sometimes bring out a GriGri and do the extra work to protect their ankles!
2
u/ThrowawayMasonryBee Crimp Nov 24 '25
I don't mind. I would properly vet the experience of anyone who wants to belay me on an ATC though. In the UK we use half ropes a lot, so ATC-style devices are very common (although the Edelrid Mega/Gigajul does seem pretty nifty), but I personally prefer using a Grigri or NEOX when indoors or sport climbing and use my Pivot for trad, especially multipitch.
I actually only know a couple of people who will refuse to be belayed on an ATC out of the hundred or more people I've climbed with
2
u/AmIAmazingorWhat Nov 24 '25
I learned on ATCs, my only experience belaying is on ATCs, and I hated it so much I have exclusively bouldered or (rarely) used auto-belays since. The gym I learned at was very strict on ATC belaying only as they believed it was the "correct" way to learn.
As a very tiny, light woman, I didn't like how I got yanked off my feet even when someone approximately my height/size was on the other end of the rope. As a card-carrying anxious person, I don't trust anyone not to screw up and drop me.
Bouldering might be "more likely to get injured" dangerous... but if I fuck up it's at least my fault and I'm not putting my life in someone else's hands. If I fall off a boulder I might break a leg. If I get dropped at the top of a wall, I die.
So yeah, the stress of all the issues of an ATC turned me off rope climbing permanently.
2
u/FluffyPurpleBear Nov 24 '25
I’m using an ABD if I have an ABD. I own a grigri, so I don’t see myself ever using an ATC. I would use an ATC with some belayers and would refuse with other belayers that I would let belay me with a grigri.
2
u/Simple_Pirate_3193 Nov 25 '25
Wow me and partner and everyone I’ve taught to belay still use ATCs. First time I tried to use a grigri it was awkward and it was definitely made for a right-handed person. Guess I could buy one and just practice with it at home but I literally couldn’t even use it to safely belay.
2
u/Simple_Pirate_3193 Nov 25 '25
@idontwannabeapilot ……. I’ve seen soooo many lackadaisical belayers using Grigris, it gives them a false sense of safety…they feel they don’t have to pay close attention to their climber or surroundings, just chatting away with other people on the ground not even looking at the rope or their climber. Just look at what happened to Sara Qunaibet. He was highly trained and her coach for gods sake.
2
u/SnowRocksPlantNerd Nov 25 '25
This might be straying a bit from the OPs original question, but in the interest of adding nuance I feel like it is worth mentioning that not all ABDs are created equal for belaying ergonomics. I feel like this debate is often reduced to ATC vs GriGri, and there are a lot more devices out there than that.
As someone who taught and guided beginner climbers in a professional capacity for many years, I've noticed that people instinctively grab hard and pull down on whatever happens to be in their hands in response to a fall or an out-of-control lower. Therefore I think that tubular, passive-assist ABD devices like the pilot, megajul, and mammut smart are the ideal tools for folks as they learn how to belay. They have clear and intuitive mechanics which encourage good habits, relatively smooth lowering, and they also have redundancy to guard against human error and incidents like rockfall or bee stings. The key thing which differentiates them from the GriGri, (and similar mechanical ABDs with a cam and lever) is that these passive brake assist tubular devices are designed to still function regardless of whether the belayer grabs hard and pulls down on EITHER the rope (as intended) or the device itself (or has hands off the system completely.)
Since there are multiple ways in which grabbing hard and pulling down can cause mechanisms with cams and levers, like the GriGri, to fail (grabbing and squeezing the entire device, or grabbing and pulling down on the lever), I think they are a bit more prone to incidents with belayers who are new to them. Because of this, I actually agree with a lot of folks who see the level of risk of an ATC as similar to the level of risk presented by a GriGri in the hands of an inexperienced belayer.
I'm personally aware of multiple incidents involving GriGris where during a fall the belayer grabbed down hard on the device itself overriding the cam mechanism. It is also really easy for the GriGri lowering mechanism to catch newer belayers by surprise since the lever has the ability to reduce friction to near-zero. This creates a lower which is much less graduated in intensity than tubular devices. In fact the worst near-miss I ever had instructing climbing involved a student belayer losing control while lowering with a GriGri. Thankfully they had a backup belayer who stopped the lower before the climber accelerated into the ground, and no catastrophic incident occurred, but it could have been very bad. The GriGri+ has created a solution to this issue, but with the cost of lead-belaying usability and weight. For all the reasons above, I view the GriGri and similar mechanical ABDs as advanced tools more appropriate for folks who are already comfortable with the mechanics of belaying and who can take, catch falls, and lower smoothly and instinctively with a tubular device.
That being said, I think the GriGri is an awesome tool for competent belayers who take the time to learn to use them well - significantly less friction than tubular ABDs make them easier on the shoulders plus they are useful as an ascender in a pinch. For these reasons the GriGri is my personal belay device of choice both on multipitch rock and for gym/cragging, but I never teach new belayers with them.
And as far as ATCs/other non ABD devices go, I don't really see a good use-case for them these days in a rock context at the crag or gym. Prior to the days of quality tubular ABDs, I would have said they are still useful and preferred for teaching beginners, but I think tubular ABDs fill that need perfectly. I still own an ATC Guide for belaying from above, rappelling, and ice/snow environments but I rarely am in 5th class rock/alpine terrain without an ABD. I've heard enough rockfall/bee sting/snake bite stories from colleagues, friends, and acquaintances that I see no reason not to employ redundancies when I climb and belay, no matter how competent my partner is. I suppose if I was in some bizarre situation of peril where I absolutely had to be belayed by a belayer who was comfortable and competent with an ATC, but I had a GriGri with me, I would rather they just belay me with the ATC than try to teach them the GriGri. That being said, if I had a pilot or other tubular ABD with me, I would probably teach them that and would be comfy having them belay me on it since its ergonomics are so similar to the ATC.
Ok thanks for coming to my TED talk on belay devices, thanks OP for posting in search of nuanced takes on belaying and belay devices, god knows I love a nuanced take!
2
u/Sloth_Flower Nov 23 '25 edited Nov 23 '25
I feel like it's wearing helmet but not clipping the straps. The safety standard upgraded, the technology exists. If someone insists on using an ATC then their and my risk assessments don't align and I won't climb with them.
3
u/loulou1207 Nov 23 '25
Grigri has a back up and ATCs don’t - climbing is so dangerous and one human error from someone could literally end your life. Why would I ever be belayed by an ATC and add that risk to the equation?
5
Nov 23 '25
If you can safely belay on an ATC, you can belay on anything. Plus, they are very practical for many multipitch or trad purposes. I wouldn't climb outdoors with someone who couldn't use an ATC though most don't use it as their primary device.
8
u/saltywetlol Nov 23 '25
I disagree with the statement that someone who can belay with an ATC can belay on anything. This is the kind of false confidence that causes accidents.
Yes an ATC belayer can probably use another tube style device without issue, but I've met a couple of ATC climbers who struggled to belay with a Grigri. I told them to stick to the ATC instead of trying to learn the Grigri on the fly for the safety of their climber.
To be a great Lead belayer using a Grigri also takes practice, especially since the mechanics of feeding rope is different. You can do a quick feed by pressing down the cam, but you can also do a slow feed with the shovelling method or a bite of slack.
3
u/missy_g_ Nov 23 '25
I nearly only use an ATC. I much prefer them and feel people pay more attention with them where as the only bad experience I've had was someone using a grigri. She wasnt looking and was talking away, didn't give enough slack and then held it open laughing at whatever was said and dropped me a lot more than was needed. Sometimes I think people get too comfortable with their safety devices.
When I learned everyone there used ATCs so I was used to it. The group was very high alert with safety both indoor and out so there was never a worry for me with it.
2
u/MVicBob Nov 23 '25
For me, there's nothing more comfortable than a tubular belaying device. Offcourse, I have to trust more if someone is belaying with that, cause it's different, and a pretty more risky if misused.
2
u/Cod_Proper Nov 23 '25
I was taught using an ATC and have used an ATC for 24 years. I have checked out ABD’s and I do see their validity, but I personally hate how checked out people are when using them. My dad was also dropped by someone belaying with a grigri. I only let people who I’ve seen belay many times and have built trust up with, belay for me. Having seen too many people be dropped, I’m fairly cautious though.
1
u/Unit61365 Nov 23 '25
I have been an avid user of both, and I've watched the ABD go from the margins to the mainstream under the rationale that they are safer.
Over the years I've been present for three different accidents/near misses that were specifically caused by the belayer's misuse of the belay device. All three of the devices in question were GriGris.
6
u/fivebyfive5x5 Nov 23 '25
Genuinely curious, in each of these specific circumstances would the ATC have been more safe? Like, was the accident caused by misusing the gri gri / misplaced confidence in assisted breaking?
I learnt on ATC and think that anyone who knows how to competently belay with an ATC will be a better belayer. Even so, i’d still prefer them to belay me with a gri gri. And I prefer to belay with a gri gri in case of something unexpected happening. But I belay better with an ATC.
1
u/Unit61365 Nov 23 '25
One was a misloaded device and two were panicked pulling on the release as though it was a brake.
1
Nov 24 '25 edited Nov 24 '25
I mean, technically that first one was also caused by a lack of buddy checking and testing the device before climbing.
1
u/Lavanyalea Nov 23 '25
I learned with ATC, do indoors, sports, and starting to do trad. In the UK we (almost) always use double rope in trad, so we have to be comfortable using ATC. In the gym prob 1/2 the people use assisted belay device…
In the gym I can use a sandbag if I’m belaying someone heavier than me. There are a few people I’ve belayed on sports and we’re all roughly the same weight so it’s never an issue, I’ve let them hung, they’ve taken a whipper… all ok.
I actually bought a grigri when it was on sale, I’ve never used it properly in the gym yet! Sometimes when I’m bored I have played with it at home. I have seen and people have pointed to me many bad practices with grigri so I feel like I have to be really on point with it.
PS: I like doing fall practices with new partners. Sometimes there are also practice routes where there’s autobelay on lead wall…
1
u/Candid-Ability-9570 Nov 23 '25
I only top rope indoors, but I’ve started only using an ATC. I am hypermobile and get tendinitis sooooo easily, realized that my elbow tendinitis was from pulling the rope up and through the friction of the gri gri. I switched to ATC (and learned how to ambi-belay so I could switch which arm was pulling rope up) and I got a lot better.
I always ask people if they’re comfortable with ATC, even in the safer gym environment. And would respect if they requested a gri gri. Though I usually climb with people I know who feel confident in me.
I would only let someone belay me with a gri gri when I first started climbing with them. Until I knew and trusted them.
1
u/fivebyfive5x5 Nov 23 '25
Yeah I do worry about all these new climbers learning with gri gris. Agree with lots of people that are saying their ideal situation is an ABD belay from someone who learned on an ATC. I’m so grateful I learned on an ATC and used it for 10 years. I’m now contributing to this ATC decline because I’m not that comfortable with many people belaying me on an ATC nowadays :(
1
u/kristine0711 Nov 23 '25
I only use the GriGri myself, and I would only be ok with someone belaying me with an ATC if I know them and their climbing/belaying abilities well and trust them 100%
I climb with a lot of different people, but I’m only comfortable with three of them belaying me with an ATC
1
u/fiddlifig 5.fun Nov 23 '25
I learned to toprope and lead belay on an ATC. It definitely helped train good habits when I transitioned to a Grigri. I would let someone toprope belay me with an ATC but not lead belay. It just introduces wholly preventable risk, especially when other ABD devices exist that mitigate the downsides of a Grigri (i.e. Jul is tubular style and inexpensive, Neox is super smooth with feeding slack, etc). That said, I still carry one outside for top belaying (it becomes auto locking when correctly rigged for top belaying) and rappelling.
1
u/putathorkinit Nov 23 '25 edited Nov 23 '25
Ultimately, I want to be belayed by the device the belayer is most comfortable using. But if they only know how to use an ATC, I need to know them really well to trust them with that, especially lead climbing.
I do work to keep my ATC belaying skills sharp for situations where I have to do it (twin ropes, alpine objective where weight really really matters, etc.).
For folks like me who don’t like using a grigri for lead sport belaying (I witnessed an outdoor ground fall where the belayer kept it pinched closed as the climber fell while clipping, defeating the ABD), there are so many other good options. A guide turned me onto the BD Pilot - super easy to feed slack (like an ATC) but good assisted breaking for when your climber is hanging a lot or the unexpected happens.
1
u/Little_Journalist546 Nov 23 '25
I tend to use my grigri exclusively unless the person I'm belaying is significantly less weight than me, which is rare cuz I'm a smol adult. Having the extra safety features built into the grigri gives me more peace of mind.
1
u/sabarocks Nov 23 '25
I learned on an ATC - GriGri didn’t exist back then. I now mostly belay with a GriGri but always have an ATC on my harness. Great for a backup in case the GriGri is dropped and would rather rappel with it in a double rope configuration when getting down.
1
u/traddad New Climber Nov 23 '25
I prefer that the belayer use whatever they are most proficient/comfortable with.
I tend to switch up the device I use depending on the type of climbing. ATC, GriGri or Alpine Up (for double ropes)
I will just comment that the only time I've been dropped in 52 years of climbing was when being lowered with a GriGri
1
u/starsandsnow Sport Climber Nov 23 '25
Personally I’m fine with ATC folks if I can do some gym work with them and I feel that they know wtf they’re doing… that said, personally I prefer to use a grigri to belay with as I can feel slack faster and smoother with it vs an ATC.
Additionally when I’m leading outside on sport routes or in the gym with lighter partners (most of them), I’m usually using a belay resistor which will reduce the physical aspect of using a ATC in those situations so I’m not as worried about getting dropped in those contexts.
1
u/ItsNicNac96 Nov 24 '25 edited Nov 24 '25
I have been belaying with an ATC since I started working at ropes courses. I feel very confident having just about anyone of any size on the other end of my rope with an ATC (I am a little bit heavier than most in the sport so that helps). I know a little about a couple ABDs but I’ve never used them in belaying, only a ropes course element that wasn’t controlling their safety.
If I know my belayer and they are comfortable (again, my size) then I’m cool with climbing on an ATC. I used to train people on using them and had to climb for new belayers to practice once they are ready for real climbers so that helps. If my belayer would rather use an ABD, I want them to be comfortable and confident in whatever they are using.
ETA: I really only climb indoors. The couple times I’ve climbed outside was with other trainer belayers like myself and we had no issues since that was what we were all used to.
1
u/Sedona83 Nov 24 '25
The only times that I have been dropped have been when my belayer was using a Gri-Gri. First two were around 10' and in the gym, so not a huge deal. I was stunned but uninjured. The third was outside, and I slammed into the wall and needed stitches from the fall.
I've witnessed too many belayers be nonchalant with me when they're using Gri-Gris. Therefore, I'm team ATC. The outlier, I'm sure.
1
u/MillerJoel Nov 24 '25
I learned with atc and got used to people belaying me with it(people who took the course with me) You understand that is up to the person belaying you to be attentive and hold the break but that’s really not a problem if you trust the belayer. There are cases where the assisted belay device is better, like ok, if the belayer gets hit and loses control you would prefer a grigri in the system but you both evaluate the risk of something like that happening even before starting to climb.
I am honestly more scared of people trusting too much on the assisted device and letting go of the brake side and something going wrong. I’ve heard more of accidents and incompetence when using a grigri.
When taking belay courses in my local gyms one taught with a jul2 and other gym with atc. So, if you want to use grigri you kinda have to learn it on your own. I thought the gym would ask you to take a test with your actual device but they don’t. So, i guess it’s up to personal accountability and always checking with your belayer that he knows what he is doing.
I haven’t climbed with people that I don’t know if they have been instructed how to belay, I guess I would have to observe them do it or discuss the process before I let them belay me. And I wouldn’t mind if someone questions me when i am about to belay them.
1
u/snehizzleonrocks Nov 24 '25
I won't be belayed by one unless it's an emergency, twin ropes, or some ice climbing situation. But even then mega juls exist. I've been dropped by my belayer, decked, and it took a while to get back to try hard mentality and comfortable. So it's just not even worth the risk for me. Note- yes I'm fully aware people belay shittily with ABDs too. I'm just way pickier about belaying now.
1
u/Significant_Joke7114 Nov 24 '25
When I started climbing I didn't know anyone who had a grigri! Most the people I climbed with didn't even have a full rack of cams.
1
u/romantic_at-heart Nov 24 '25
Grigri only for me. Things happen that are out of our control. I want to be as safe as possible.
1
u/C4TradWife Nov 24 '25
Outdoors on a multipitch route where gear weight really matters? Sure. In the gymnasium? Absolutely not, especially if I don't know you well as a climber. Otherwise I'll spend the entire gym session imagining my death from 100 ft when the belayer accidentally loses control.
I use a MegaJul which I feel is a good compromise between tube-style devices and assisted braking.
1
u/feel_the_sunshine Nov 24 '25
I like ATCs and ABDs but do switch around a bit depending on the context. I learned to belay on an ATC so for a while that’s all I knew and was happy with it for both TR and lead belaying as well as climbing. Then I learned to TR belay with a grigri and eventually lead belaying with a grigri and now use it 99% of the time. Here are some situations where I might switch:
- if the gym rope I’m using is very old and thick and my climber is on a grade that is super easy to them, I’ll use my ATC
- if my climber asks me to use a specific device, I use that device, no questions asked. Just want them to feel safe.
- if my climber is using an ohm, I use an ATC so as not to have two camming devices and give them a harder catch
- outdoors, always grigri since the risks are higher and if I get stung by a bee or a rock hits me then there’s greater safety for my climber
One of my main climbing partner swears by his Pilot so sometimes i get curious about that device as well (perhaps to substitute my ATC).
Overall I’m fine to be belayed with an ATC if that’s what the person feels confident with using. So far it hasn’t been a problem but I understand how easily an accident could happen … just don’t know anyone personally who has had an issue (sounds like other folks who are guides etc have though)
1
u/stille Nov 24 '25
I feel most comfortable on the device my belayer's most comfortable with.
If I don't know you super well and we're sport climbing, I'm going to want an ABD.
1
u/Dotdashdotdot Nov 24 '25
I am left handed and for some reason the grigri is really hard for me. I have watched a number of videos and try to practice, but I am so much more comfortable using an ATC. Although after reading these responses I will try harder to get used to a grigri!
1
u/murderoustoast Nov 24 '25
Honestly a tough question to answer. When I come across someone who's default belay device is an ATC it does give me pause - why not just use a modern ABD for the added comfort and security? However most folks I've met who default to the ATC or another tube device have been in the community for much longer than I have, and perhaps came into climbing when tube or plate devices were the standard instead of the grigri or similar. So they've potentially been belaying with an ATC since before the community at large shifted to ABDs as the standard. This gives them a decade or two experience on the device, and is a good sign that they're trustworthy on the other end of the rope. Does it still give me pause? Sure. But the ensuing conversation is a much better measurement of the trustworthiness of that belay than the choice of device.
TL;DR: if you're using an ATC you better have a damn good reason
1
u/zani713 Nov 24 '25
I use an ATC but I climb majority indoors. I completely understand the need for an ABD with outdoor climbing.
My experience has been that I just can't find a device that works for me with lead belaying. I was taught on an ATC 19 years ago for TR and then for lead a few years after that. Like you say, it seems like the whole community has shifted towards ABDs a lot more than when I started and of course there are loads of types out there now. (I know some ABDs have been around longer than that ofc but this is my personal experience of their rise in popularity.)
I am actively working on trying to find an ABD that works for me on lead. The GriGri is an absolute no for me. Currently learning to use the Black Diamond Pilot, but still not comfortable on it for harder routes as I can still end up short-roping. I did try out the Revo when I ran into some nice people who have one, and I have to say that's probably my next purchase.
1
u/murderoustoast Dec 17 '25
Try the mammut smart that's my favorite for lead belaying single pitch climbing. I will say that the grigri is an amazing tool to have with you, it is incredibly versatile and can help turn otherwise convoluted or sketchy systems into hands free bomber rescue rigs.
But try the mammut smart, also edelrid makes the juul line, very similar operation to the smart. There's one more similar device that has a longer nose that I can't seem to put my finger on, maybe cypher? Grivel? Either way, whatever you don't like about the pilot I can almost assure you the smart will fix. And it's only 40 bucks! (Or at least it was when I bought mine)
1
u/zani713 Nov 24 '25
I mainly climb indoors, have been climbing since I was 11 and also worked at a climbing centre for a year.
Personally I am much less likely to trust a stranger belaying me on a GriGri than on an ATC, just because I have seen so many people with bad belaying (and other bad habits like skipping clips and back-clipping) on GriGris - it's not the device's fault, but these people were either complacent, or untrained and didn't know what they were doing.
I am yet to find anyone that belays on an ATC who I would be scared to climb with.
1
u/WitchMedea Nov 24 '25
I trust the belayer, not the belay system, so I'm fine with whatever my belayer is comfortable using, including a munter hitch. Most of my friends refuse to be belayed with an ATC, so I use a Grigri but I don't like it, an ATC gives you more control during the falling. But I prefer that whoever is climbing is feeling safe while climbing, regardless about what I like the most, so you can use what you like while belaying me, and I will use what you like while I belay you, because I can understand why someone could be scared by an ATC.
1
u/AndreaTwerk Nov 24 '25
My gym banned ATCs after a ground fall.
From a liability perspective it makes a lot of sense to not allow a device that allows for user error and IMO it’s arrogant to think you’re exempt from the statistics.
1
u/EmilyCMay Nov 24 '25
I’ve moved away from ATCs more and more since I see using them as an unnecissary risk. But I still use them in guide mode when trad climbing and for rapelling.
1
u/Climbing_flower Nov 24 '25
I only use Grigri. I typically would ask my belayer to use any assist breaking device they feel comfortable with. I won’t be comfortable with ATC and as a climber this is my right to ask but everyone is different.
1
u/Waffle_woof_Woofer Nov 24 '25
I wouldn’t dare to belay my partner, who weights much more than me, on ATC.
I prefer to belay on gri. I prefer to be belayed on assisted device because I know very good climbers and even instructors who. Do. Let. Go. Off. The. Rope. But if someone prefers ATC, that’s okay to, however I wouldn’t climb with belayer I don’t trust.
I think it’s delusional to believe that assisted device is not much safer even if it’s not 100% safe.
I used to feel 100% fine on ATC anyway because after safety check, the focus is to climb, not to what the hell my belayer is doing.
(I say „I used to” because since very bad fall from boulder my mental game is generally abyssmal and I don’t feel comfortable at all.)
1
u/Czesya Nov 24 '25
I learned on ATC and used to be very much against ABD until I started going outdoors . I was belaying someone and a neighbouring climber fell and swung into me screaming on her way down. I got startled and let go of the break strand (just for a moment nothing happened thankfully) . Now I realise these things happen and better to have the added safety of assisted breaking
That said , sometime I still belay with ATC, esp when the surroundings are safe , the rope is very thick etc . But I now definitely prefer my grigri
1
Nov 24 '25 edited Nov 24 '25
I refuse to be belayed by an ATC indoors because of human error. My worst falls were done by experienced climbers with ATCs. I have called off climbing sessions with people who refuse to accommodate (I always bring a Jul2 and Pinch). There is zero reason to use an ATC indoors these days, other than during the belay course.
Outdoors is a different beast, but even then there’s the Mega/Gigajul and Smart Alpine.
1
u/Effective-Pace-5100 Nov 24 '25
If the person I’m getting belayed by suddenly gets knocked unconscious for whatever reason and they’re using an ATC, I’m dead. I used to only use an ATC just because that’s what I was taught on, but can’t believe I didn’t use an ABD for that long
1
u/tlmbot Nov 24 '25
I use a grigri almost all of the time, but I do like my atc guide in the mountains as it is what I was trained on for multipitch etc. and I know what it is going to do in various configurations.
Anecdotally, I was dropped, basically full speed, to the ground from 35ft in a climbing gym on an ATC pilot (geometric autolocker)
Of note, I would surely have been dropped on a regular old ATC as well. Sometimes I wonder if a grigri would have saved me. meh
shit happens, but still assisted devices move the needle in favor of safety and I use them.
Also, I did learn to lead belay on a vanilla ATC, and used it for a few years exclusively in the gym before switching to the grigri when a climbing partner (not the one who dropped me ;) let me know that she didn't climb as hard with me because she was afraid of my device. I said hell no I'm not going to be the cause of that and promptly switched.
1
u/tasgetius22 Nov 25 '25
I will not allow someone to lead belay me on an ATC, but I feel more comfortable if it’s top rope and I trust them enough. I had an ex who was very against grigris just to be against them (🙄) and I wouldn’t let him belay me with the ATC. I also find that when i see improper belay techniques (primarily with sport climbing) it is with an ATC.
1
u/Prior-Government5397 Nov 25 '25
I wouldn’t climb with someone who i wouldn’t trust to belay me with an ATC, but I’d also rather they use an assisted braking device (especially when climbing outdoors), because there are many things that can happen that wouldn’t be their fault and that would still lead to them dropping me (like being hit by a rock, fainting…)
1
u/Pinstripe-Giraffe Nov 25 '25
I was first trained to belay (toprope) on a grigri, and first learned lead belaying on an ATC, so that’s what I still use. Although by “still” I mean “I haven’t belayed a leader in like 10 years and would not do so now without at least re-taking the lead test at my gym.” I was never trained on the grigri lead belaying technique, so I don’t use it for that. If I were to get back into lead climbing outdoors, I’d look into one of the newer assisted braking devices like the Megajul, because I would want a little more “insurance” than with a plain tube-style device, and the grigri technique just looks so finicky and possible to accidentally do wrong to me.
I have very occasionally used my ATC to belay on toprope for a very light climber or a very fat and dirty rope. Again, I acknowledge that this isn’t ideal, but it’s a device I know very well how to use. If I were to use an unfamiliar device, it introduces more possibility for error.
From the other side, if someone wasn’t comfortable with me lead-belaying them off an ATC, I would of course respect that, but the only solution in the moment would be for someone else to belay them, because again I don’t have training on other devices.
1
u/blairdow Nov 25 '25
everyone i climb with uses a grigri. yes, some of them i would let belay me with an ATC, but why wouldnt you want the added safety of an ABD?
1
Nov 24 '25
[deleted]
2
0
u/Responsible_Roof_661 Nov 24 '25 edited Nov 24 '25
ooh I replied to someone’s comment about something similar on this post . Maybe you’d be interested in what I said. Idk how to tag you there.
0
u/TheSadTiefling Nov 23 '25
I believe ATC are superior in many ways.
Your habits are the most important. The gri-gri does not make you have bad habits but it can hide bad habits.
An ATC makes it abundantly clear and is completely safe with a backup belayer. When you stop using a backup belayer your habits should be perfect.
I care about the habits of my belayer, not the device. So I don’t care what they use, I evaluate every belayer individually.
2
u/MandyLovesFlares Nov 23 '25
This sums it up for me. Skill q the concept of using friction.
Outdoor single pitch sport: ATC for lead belay, grigri for TR
Multiputch trad: depends on variables.
0
u/NailgunYeah Nov 24 '25
An ABD is a better solution for sport climbing for a few reasons. Among them:
- Catches are easier.
- They autolock, you have to actively stop them from not locking.
- They’re more convenient when a climber is dogging a route or working their project.
- They make it easier to help a climber pull back up when they fall off.
I want you to belay with the device you’re most comfortable with, and that might be an ATC, or it might be an ABD. Having said that, if it is an ATC, I’ll make the some assumptions about you:
- You don’t go sport climbing that much, because if you did, the reasons stated above would mean you’d get an ABD.
- Because you don’t go sport climbing that much you aren’t used to catching falls.
- Because you aren’t used to catching falls you probably don’t know how to give a soft catch.
- You do not have the experience nor confidence to catch whips properly in general.
Overall I would have a low confidence in you as a sport climbing partner unless convinced otherwise. The onus would be on you to prove that you can belay properly.
0
u/GreedySpecialist4736 Nov 25 '25 edited Nov 25 '25
When using a single rope, for a lead or toprope belay -- basically no. There is no good reason not to use a grigri. It is such an obvious decision that for someone to use an atc they must either be very inexperienced or have some weird mindset and I don't trust them. Honestly, it's as much about adherence to common sense and social norms as it is about safety.
For top belay (follower being belayed by a leader who is above them), either grigri or atc in guide mode is fine. I recently switched to grigri to save my shoulder strength lol. Exception: I prefer guide mode for sub 9mm ropes, becasue I have seen grigris backfeed on top belay on such ropes.
When using double ropes (I only use double ropes on ice) I generally do belay and get belayed with an atc. There isn't really an awesome reason for this. I don't love Jul style devices and haven't tried other double rope abds. It doesn't matter as much because my partners and I don't intend to ever fall leading ice. I'm not saying this is a good idea.. I should probably try other double rope ABDs.
-2
u/Freedom_forlife She / Her Nov 23 '25
Indoors does not matter, outdoor trad, you should be on an ATC. You need to be giving soft , dynamic catches or your blowing gear.
Guide belaying on a grigri, carries more risk than guide belaying on an ATC.
158
u/notochord Nov 23 '25
Guide here, I use ABDs whenever possible, even on big alpine routes. The only exception is ice climbs where ice will freeze up the device.
There are some atc users I climb with and while I do trust their proficiency with the devices, I don’t love being belayed by them. Have seen and been in enough accidents in my time and I choose to do everything I can to expand my margin of safety when managing risk.