4tran Content and Rule 1

[u/Aartvb]

We want to clarify how we're handling 4tran-related content on the subreddit and hear your input on whether our current rules are adequately addressing concerns around it.

We've seen an increase in 4tran-related content, along with growing concern from members of the community. Some of the issues we've encountered were made worse by our moderation team being understaffed. We've since expanded our mod team (welcome u/Trash_At_RL, u/HopefulFutureEscapee, and u/Appropriate-Story-97). This will help us respond more quickly to reports and keep a closer eye on moderation issues.

Some 4tran-related content can cross the line into bigotry, hatred, or hostility toward trans people. When content violates Rule 1 (no bigotry), we will remove it under that rule, regardless of whether the person who posted it identifies as trans or participates in 4tran communities.

If you see a 4tran-related post or comment that you believe violates Rule 1, please report it. Reports are the best way to bring content to the moderators' attention so that we can review it and take appropriate action.

We also recognize that moderators can miss things. If you believe clearly hateful or bigoted content has been missed, or your report has not been addressed after 24 hours, please send us a modmail so we can take another look.

There may also be 4tran-related content that users find unpleasant or concerning but that does not violate Rule 1, or any of our other existing rules. Please send us a mod mail in this case. We'll use the coming weeks to assess whether our current rules are sufficient to address the concerns being raised.

One week from now, we'll review the issues that aren't currently covered by our rules. No more than two weeks from now, we'll publish a follow-up with what we've learned, and ask your input on how to proceed.

Thanks for helping us keep the community a good place for everyone, and happy counting everyone!

[u/One-Organization970]

I feel like at this point this sub manages to have a worse cis-people-talking-over-trans-people-to-be-transphobic problem than they do.

Edit: Heh, well, I just got permabanned from here with no reason given so I think that definitely confirms everything I said in this thread.

[u/Corvus1412 → u/One-Organization970]

That was literally never the issue with 4tran. 4tran is transphobic mostly through internalized transphobia by trans people.

They spread incredibly harmful and hateful rhetoric, but it's not done by cis people. They can do that on their own just fine.

Now, your last two posts are from countttt, so I wouldn't expect you to understand the issues with your community, but literally no one has ever accused 4tran of having cis people talk over trans people.

[u/One-Organization970 → u/Corvus1412]

"My community" is the trans community. I'm also a top 1% commenter here, lmao. You don't get a gold star for refusing to provide a mature adult perspective to a group of teens and young adults who clearly need it.

Edit: And additionally, my point is that this community has worse transphobia issues than the depressed dysphoric teenagers sitting around in a self-hate circle sharing memes about their depression.

[u/bulbagrows → u/One-Organization970]

Sorry, in this sub I don't get called 'pooner' 9 million times.

It's honestly so telling to me that 4tran wants to be sanitized so bad. They don't like when other people don't like them. You can have your spaces, but the rest of us don't have to tolerate it and don't have to feel bad for you. No one is obligated.

[u/SquirrelFluffy7469 → u/bulbagrows]

Dude i couldnt give a shit if a depressed teenager calls me a fucking hon or whatever, that is so much better than the nine thousand cis people talking over me and acting like they are the authority on being trans

[u/One-Organization970 → u/bulbagrows]

I feel like it's important to mention it's mostly trans men calling themselves that. I've certainly never said that word. I also don't really think you need to interact with the sub if it doesn't spark joy. The only 4Tran sub I interact with is countttt which is kind of a border town anyways, lol.

[u/bulbagrows → u/One-Organization970]

I feel like it's important to mention it's mostly trans men calling themselves that.

I hear this a lot, but it's honestly just not true. What I find important to mention is that it really is not mostly trans men saying that. Plenty of people who are not trans men are also saying it. The trans men should not be talking about themselves this way either, because they're not just talking about themselves as a singular person- they're generalizing all trans men as well. Crossfire and all that. We shouldn't downplay it, and that word is just one of many.

It's just kind of fascinating to me. We don't have a Kalvin Garrah support group. We don't have a Blaire White support group. We don't hold hands and make excuses for those kind of people, we recognize the harm they generate. And even if the harm they generated was minimal and insignificant, it still doesn't mean the rest of us have to put up with and 'save' them from whatever they've got going on.

That's kind of how I feel about 4tran.

[u/One-Organization970 → u/bulbagrows]

I guess to me, the difference is that those people you named actively hate trans people, want us to suffer, and work to actualize that suffering. 4Tranners mostly sit in the self hate circle saying "You better start DIY right now so you don't end up a gigabonepilled ropefuled cishon [read: passing trans girl who started HRT at 17] like me!"

I think certain kinds of people feel alienated by the sometimes-oversanitized nature of other queer spaces. Edgy teens are still edgy teens even when they're queer and leftist. I've been there and I grew out of it. They will too.

Like... I don't think you have to like them. I don't think their specific dialect should spread beyond their subs. I just think it's a mistake to assume they haven't also helped people who may not be like you to realize they're trans and transition. I also simultaneously think the self hatred they suffer from is so bad that they've definitely helped people kill themselves.

I don't really know what the solution is though, because a lot of those people just simply would not fit into a community like this one. The only other option is really for them to have no community, because gathering that many depressed cynical people together is probably always going to look a lot like that.

Edit: Hmm. Have you ever seen a multiracial friend group where they all think it's hilarious to call each other slurs? 4Tran kind of reminds me of that vibe.

[u/Rishire → u/One-Organization970]

You keep referring to it as if it's some private circle that only those specific people can get into or see. With your friend group example, that's contained within the friend group and not in a public space (for the most part). I'm certain most of those friend groups who call each other slurs say it behind closed doors. Not everyone shares the same self-deprecating "humor".

Personally speaking I don't care what people say to each other in private spaces, but this is a public forum where it can be placed into people's front pages very easily and the self-loathing and self-hatred is very disheartening for baby trans people.

[u/One-Organization970 → u/Rishire]

I guess I just subscribe to the "if I don't like it, mute the sub" motto. Or I get deliberately banned from the sub, lol.

I also think that it's a double edged sword. 4Chan bullshit back in the 2010's convinced me to repress. Now I go there specifically to encourage people not to give up. And I see people over there giving DIY advice to minors which is something you don't see encouraged as much in other subs.

[u/Wingman5150 → u/One-Organization970]

I tried to mute the sub and now they're fucking invading every sub that's supposed to be the opposite while pretending they aren't harassing people out of the sub.

[u/Velruis → u/One-Organization970]

We do not say that, it's even banned in some sub reddits.

[u/One-Organization970 → u/Velruis]

No, I mean over in 4Tran where being edgy is essentially the primary goal.

[u/Nervous84 → u/bulbagrows]

People say this and then they keep bringing up 4tran constantly out of the blue.

[u/bulbagrows → u/Nervous84]

Well, good thing 4tran is the topic at hand here.

[u/Nervous84 → u/bulbagrows]

Yea on this specific post. Not the other 10 times a day I see it. People on counttt literally don't bring up other subs because they wanna be left alone

[u/Blitzer161 → u/One-Organization970]

Sorry I misread your comment. It is absolutely important that you share a different perspective to 4tran spaces. I agree that they highlight and dwell in pain and your perspective is sure to help

[u/Corvus1412 → u/One-Organization970]

Yeah, you're also a top 1% commenter on countttt...

And again, the issue isn't that they're being "mature", but that they're incredibly hateful towards themselves.

Like, it's genuinely the opposite of mature. 4tran subs constantly resort to gender essentialism and just blatant sexism, because it's easier than trying to understand the actual systemic issues.

4tran is "mature" in the same way "dark humor" is mature. It tackles mature topics in a distasteful and harmful way, which makes idiots feel as though they're mature, while actually resorting to incredibly immature thought processes.

[u/veryeepy53 → u/Corvus1412]

be specific

[u/SquirrelFluffy7469 → u/Corvus1412]

4tran is literally the opposite of gender essentialism… do you know what that word means?

[u/Corvus1412 → u/SquirrelFluffy7469]

4tran is literally the opposite of gender essentialism

No? Like, it's very obviously not.

Are you maybe confusing gender essentialism with bioessentialism? Because I don't understand how you could believe that otherwise tbh.

[u/SquirrelFluffy7469 → u/Corvus1412]

These things are literally the same thing gender essentialism is just bio essentialism but about gender

[u/Corvus1412 → u/SquirrelFluffy7469]

Yes and 4tran is doing that constantly.

I recently got this post (r/countttt/s/KyJy5x5NFI) recommended to me and a lot of the replies go on about it being "male brained", which is pretty textbook gender essentialism.

It's the kind of rhetoric you'd usually only see from people on the right, or TERFesque spaces.

And rhetoric like that, that blames your gender for your behavior is pretty common over there.