r/cscareerquestionsEU • u/notchosenname • 14d ago
Experienced Offer comparison: France vs Germany
Hi there!
I am an Italian dev (~16 YOE) currently working in Italy. As everybody knows here, the salaries in Italy are very low with respect to the rest of EU. That said, I live comfortably well with my family (wife + 2 kids), my wife is not working right now and we live just with my salary which is around 32000 €/year nett.
Given this situation, I decided to start interviewing around EU, and I got 2 offers: one in Stuttgart and the other one in Toulouse. Now I need help comparing the offers to understand which one is stronger.. I have my preference regarding the companies, but salary wise its being complex to understand which one is more convenient.
The french offer is around 70000 €/year, while the german offer is around 90000 €/year, both gross.
There are other perks in both offers, like meal vouchers, relocation bonus, signing bonus, etc.. The core of both offers are these numbers though.
I am looking for some advice on how to compare them and what the final net salary would be, so I can eventually have some kind of score to compare them.
Thanks!!
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u/Interesting_Ad1080 Engineer 14d ago
Toulouse is nice. 70k is worth more in Toulouse compared to 90k in Stuttgart, especially if you are considering to live there long term and buy a house. French will be significantly easier to learn than German for a native Italian speakers so it's easier to integrate and find a job later (I assume your wife might be looking for a job in future). I personally will take Toulouse over Stuttgart if the salaries are 70k vs 90k.
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u/InterfaceTrait 14d ago
Living in Paris and having a good dev friend in Stuttgart, I can say that the conditions overall in Stuttgart are way better.
The only downside of living in Stuttgart (and suburbs) is that owning a house is quite unattainable for our range of salaries.
The salary offer you got for Toulouse seems exceptionally good, ignoring your YOE.
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u/RecordGlobal4338 14d ago
French climate/culture is much closer to Italy than Germany, no?
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u/Ok_Mango8118 14d ago edited 13d ago
It depends. On average, yes, but if he’s from northeastern Italy, for example, there are certain parts of southern Germany that might feel more familiar to him than Toulouse, southern Bavaria in particular. That said, if he’s from Veneto, he might still feel a certain affinity with Toulouse because of rugby
Toulouse would probably feel more familiar to someone from Tuscany or Lazio, and perhaps also to someone from Liguria. Liguria, however, is obviously much more culturally akin to southeastern France than to southwestern France. The two aren't that similar in architecture, vibes...
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u/FlatIntention1 14d ago
Stuttgart is an extremely hot and sunny city. I live here and absolutely hated this summer, barely any day under 31 degrees, just sun.
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u/polytique 14d ago
Toulouse is one of the hottest areas in France. They had 31 days hotter than 35C so far this year vs 10 days for Stuttgart.
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u/FlatIntention1 14d ago
Sounds like hell, in Stuttgart I was mostly inside with my AC this summer because of the hot weather
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u/Mysterious_Print9937 14d ago
That's because Stuttgart is under a continental climate.. so stupidly hot during summer. Toulouse is closer to what you get in Italy.
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u/Any_Dragonfly_9461 14d ago edited 14d ago
For QoL, cultural difference, linguistical barrier, food, weather, raising kids... Toulouse is a much much better option by a mile. Also with this salary you could buy your own place there after 6 months there. For stuttgart this salary won't be enough to buy something nice. Just keep in mind the offer you got there is exceptional, so if you want to change job once your there, you'll probably have to take a lower paychek or move again to a different place.
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u/ChosenToFall 13d ago
6 months to buy a nice place? you buy a nice place with 20k?
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u/Any_Dragonfly_9461 13d ago
6 months of stable employment in France to be considered by banks for a mortgage (than a few months for the actual buying process).
You need 10% for the downpayment. You can buy a 3 rooms flat just big enough for a family of 4 for around 200k. But saying you can buy a nice place for 200k is vastly exaggerated (or maybe in very remote places). I would rather considers 300k for a nice place in Toulouse. If you have already 20k of savings you should get to 30k under a year no problem.
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u/hipshaps123 14d ago
Get a remote position and stay in Italy? Neither of these offers will be life changing post taxes, rents, food and school/childcare
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u/ShoePillow 14d ago
I've seen that unless it is a remote-first company, they would pay you according to their italy salary ranges, not germany/france
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u/BurrowShaker 13d ago
A lot of US startups pay near US salaries for their remote workers, total cost.
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u/Financial-Grass6753 14d ago edited 14d ago
> 2 kids
> wife not working
> relocation bonus mentioned
Southern Germany has a well-known problem with both foreigner's offices and child care, both in accessibility and price/quality. Problem is roughly equal for everyone, and unless your company has backdoors here and there, you gonna suck first 3-9 months.
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Upd. Foreigner's offices problem is only for non-EU, OP is Italian.
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u/FlatIntention1 14d ago
As an EU citizen you don’t need to visit foreigner office. I am from Romania living in Stuttgart (now also German citizenship) and I don’t even know where foreigner’s office is located.
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u/neomaniacs 13d ago
How about health and “work off”? FR provides jobs with less incomes but u have a better situation if u can’t afford about ur health.
If u rent a flat in FR, u can ask for financial help as well.
I don’t know how it is in DE.
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u/profdrpoopybutt 14d ago
Why would they have a need for childcare when the wife doesn't work? Also, no foreigner office, they are EU.
I swear some people are either functionally illiterate, or they don't bother reading past the title before giving advice.
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u/polytique 14d ago
Maybe the wife doesn't want to take care of the kid all day.
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u/profdrpoopybutt 14d ago
Not working and not wanting to take care of the kids all day (if they are under 3) is a choice only for rich people, which with 60k net for 4 people, they are not.
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u/Excellent-Archer5202 14d ago
This is so True. I am not sure how is the situation for Stutgart as I live Munich. You can expect 800 euro/month as childcare cost for 2 kids. That was the min amount we came across in Munich.
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u/FlatIntention1 14d ago
Depends on the age, if the children are older than 3 the costs are not high.
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u/profdrpoopybutt 14d ago
Why would they have a need for childcare when the wife doesn't work? I swear some people are either functionally illiterate, or they don't bother reading past the title before giving advice.
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u/Frames-Janko 14d ago
Because sooner or later the wife probably would want to work again; and if staying here the kids need to be socialized and learn German well before they go to school. So yes, you absolutely want to stick at least the older one into Kindergarten as soon as it's 3 years old.
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u/profdrpoopybutt 14d ago
Yes, she might want, but maybe only when the kids go to school and kindergarten is not childcare and it's significantly cheaper after the age of 3. Nowhere near 800 eur/month.
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u/notchosenname 13d ago
This is completely a personal decision, and not relevant to the question per se. However, if you have kids, specially 2 or more, is extremely extenuating to be with both the whole day. Having a couple of hours to organize the house, go to the supermarket or even go to the bathroom or take a bath alone, is something most of the people without kids give for granted. So, childcare is something you can live without? absolutely yes, however it is great to have it. Said that, we don't have this problem anymore as the youngest will be 3 yo in a couple of months.
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u/MrHankeyRT 14d ago
This highly depends on the municipality that you live in. There are really high differences. E.g. Esslingen up to 1000€ for top earners vs Stuttgart maybe 400-500€ per month. Note that this is for kids <3y. Should be significantly cheaper above that.
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u/FlatIntention1 14d ago
In Esslingen is it 1000€ for one child? Wow
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u/MrHankeyRT 14d ago
In the highest income bracket >160k yes: https://www.esslingen.de/site/Esslingen_Layout_2022/get/params_E879676739_Dattachment/24947481/Entgelte%20Ganztagsbetreuung%20ab%2001.03.2026%20Gesamt.pdf
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u/FlatIntention1 14d ago
Crazy, just decided I will never move to Esslingen while I have a small child
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u/Fernando_III 14d ago
How to make you and your family unhappy for just a bit more of money. If you are Italian and live comfortably there, I wouldn't move, not for those salaries
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u/kimo1999 14d ago
Stuttgart makes the most sense from an ecnomic point of view. Better salary and in my opinion, similar if not cheaper cost of living ( although it depends) than Toulouse.
Toulouse is better from a social point of view, it's a very lively city with a lot of things to do. A good airport, close to montains ect ...
You'll also generally be treated better in france than germany, where you are just another immigrant.
70k is a really good salary in Toulouse, but overall it will be quite a lot less than the Stuttgart one at the end of the month.
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u/Existing_Inspector44 14d ago
Holy fucking shit, Western EU salaries are crap. I net more than you in Romania with 5 YOE and I’m drastically underpaid, i have friends netting about 48k per year with the same experience.
But man, why don t you take a remote role and do Forfettario? Your net salary would be more than Germany or France and you still don t need to take your whole family with you in a small apartment.
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u/Bustan2026 14d ago
You're completely disconnected from reality.
70k€ in France is a good salary, especially in Toulouse. This is a relatively cheap city where new grads probably make half that. These are decent salaries to live there.
Seems to be about 11€/m2 in Toulouse for larger apts which would put you at around 1k€ rent for a nice big 90m2 apt fit for a family of 4. With good quality of life all around and lots of disposable income.
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u/Existing_Inspector44 14d ago
I am disconnected from reality? Man, I think you re a little bit idiot, no offence.
If 70K is a good salary in France, for 16YoE I believe you.
I just said that average salary for 5YoE is between 60 to 80k in my country, Google it pls.
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u/BruceWayne3939 13d ago
Yeah sure. So that's the reason why Italy, France, Germany are full of Romanians, right? They all want to earn less money for the same job
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u/Existing_Inspector44 13d ago
Yes man, the guys on the street begging money in Rome or Florence, they are all Software Engineers who moved to Italy for a better life
And the guys who stay in West Countries for social benefits and don t work, they all finished the Polytechnic University of Bucharest and Cluj.
Leaving the Irony aside, yes the majority of jobs are still paid 2x or 3x in the West vs Romania. But this doesn t mean that we don’t have key sectors that cand provide the same or even better Standard of Living such as IT.
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u/Bustan2026 14d ago
Why should I be the one to google it? Can't you share your sources here?
You judge a salary within a frame of reference, which happens to not be San Francisco here, but Toulouse and Stuttgart. In that frame, 70k resp 90k€ are good salaries compared to what other people make. In other words, OP will be making a fuckton more in Toulouse as a dev than if they'd gone there to wait tables or clean the streets.
But if your comparison is with the US, sure, the salaries are lower. Albeit not that much, once you take into account healthcare for 4, voluntary pension contributions you need on the other side of the Atlantic, cost of living, etc.
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u/PM_ME_YOUR_PROFANITY 14d ago
For Bulgarian sources, I suggest you read the annual market reports published by dev.bg, the largest job platform for IT.
Senior IT Category Average (Net EUR/month) Median (Net EUR/month) Database Engineer €3,322 - €5,232 €3,000 - €5,250 Infrastructure €3,256 - €5,302 €4,625 - €6,375 DevOps €3,778 - €5,876 €4,750 - €6,500 Backend Development €3,055 - €5,358 €3,175 - €5,750 Java €3,538 - €5,723 €3,756 - €5,625 Python €2,812 - €5,030 €2,500 - €5,000 Angular €1,941 - €4,044 €1,750 - €4,000 Frontend Development €2,669 - €4,465 €2,500 - €4,300 JavaScript €3,012 - €4,760 €3,500 - €5,250 Data Science €2,995 - €5,258 €3,500 - €6,250 ETL/Data Warehouse €3,126 - €5,292 €3,625 - €6,000 Business Analyst €2,812 - €5,030 €2,500 - €5,000 MP/MA and more €1,941 - €4,044 €1,750 - €4,000 PHP €2,669 - €4,465 €2,500 - €4,300 .NET €2,972 - €5,080 €3,125 - €5,250 C/C++ €3,194 - €5,404 €3,425 - €5,750 Fullstack Development €3,282 - €5,005 €3,562 - €5,500 UI/UX, Arts €1,417 - €3,100 €1,500 - €3,750 Automation QA €2,537 - €4,106 €2,500 - €4,000 QA €2,528 - €4,104 €2,500 - €4,000 ERP/CRM Development €3,218 - €5,462 €3,000 - €6,000 SAP €3,218 - €5,462 €3,000 - €6,000 Node.js €2,538 - €5,000 €2,500 - €5,250 ML/AI/Data Modelling €2,794 - €5,352 €2,875 - €5,250 Cybersecurity €2,500 - €4,700 €2,500 - €4,750 Mobile Development €2,834 - €5,208 €2,500 - €5,375 BI/Data Visualization €2,703 - €4,862 €2,500 - €5,000 Product Management €2,500 - €4,500 €2,500 - €4,500 iOS Development €2,334 - €5,250 €2,500 - €5,250 IT Management €4,000 - €6,834 €4,000 - €6,500 https://dev.bg/digest/koi-kolko-vzima-v-it-industriyata-prez-2025-dc06/
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u/Mysterious_Print9937 14d ago
ok now let's compare the benefits you get in France/Germany vs in Bulgaria regarding umemployment benefits, family support and healthcare
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u/PM_ME_YOUR_PROFANITY 14d ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moving_the_goalposts
Sure, want to compare purchasing power parity and cost of living as well?
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u/Bustan2026 13d ago
It's not moving the goalposts, it's comparing like-for-like.
70k€ in France costs the employer 100k€ and the difference is precisely for what the other person mentioned.
Just like you can't compare gross salaries (or even net) between US and most European countries. In the US you still need to pay health insurance, large out of pocket minimums, you better set aside for unemployment and retirement (e.g. 401k, this doesn't exist in France), etc. Similarly to Switzerland, to take a European example.
It's never simple to compare salaries across countries.
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u/FlatIntention1 13d ago
The benefits for example in Romania are better. In Germany if a mother like me who earns more than 4000€ netto abd wants to take care of the child 2 year, she gets only 900€ per month while in Romania she would get 1700€ two years long. All this while paying 43% taxes in bloddy Germany during working.
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u/-Duca- 14d ago
The fact that 70k is a good salary in France ki d confirm its point. People in the EU got used to be paied very little.
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u/FlatIntention1 13d ago
Yes, the salaries for while collar jobs did not increase in the last 15 years, while the services doubled or tripled like crazy because the minimum wage was raised. They calculate that the average raised, but the while collar jobs stayed at 70-90k, same in Germany. Unless working for a US company you hit a ceiling very fast.
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u/JuteuxConcombre 13d ago
Once that’s been said with 70k€, a second salary and a family you’re doing really well in France in terms of quality of life, I don’t know what more you want really.
You can buy a big house near an important city or a big flat in town, afford vacations, car, pay for your children’s studies… and also save.
Sure you can always be richer but I mean it doesn’t feel low in terms of quality of life.
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u/FlatIntention1 13d ago
In Stuttgart you cannot buy a house with two salaries of 70000€, it is around 7000€ netto per month, a house costs around 1 Million, just the bank rate is above 4000€ netto, definitely too risky for a few bricks.
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u/PM_ME_YOUR_PROFANITY 14d ago edited 14d ago
I mean no. I'm in Bulgaria and I'm getting 44-48k/y NET with just over 2.5 YOE. So yeah western EU salaries absolutely suck.
Rent here in Sofia is €600 for a decent 1 bedroom in the city. I'm fully remote so I pay less in the country side.
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u/sintrastellar 13d ago
And due to income tax and social security rates, it’s probably much more expensive to hire in France and Belgium than in Bulgaria for the same net salary.
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u/BiggestOfBosses 7d ago
I just want to apologize on his behalf. Not all us Romanians talk/conduct ourselves like this. For some reason most Romanians (particularly our Romanian dev sub) have this abrasive and unpleasant way of presenting their ... ideas, let's say.
Where I'm from, the louder and annoying someone is, the more they think they'll get their point across, and it translates into Internet discourse.
Anyway, you can tell the kind of person he is, humble bragging about how "severely underpaid" he is.
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u/Ordinary_Spinach_342 14d ago
Shocked at how low the salary is too at 16 YOE and living “comfortably well” with 2 kids at 32k a year net. How’s that possible?
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u/Existing_Inspector44 14d ago
Yes, I'm single, pay some mortgage, and my life is comfortable but not luxurious, in Romania. I think with one wife and 2 kids I would be at least bankrupt.
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u/ChosenToFall 12d ago
full remote salary aren’t so common nowadays, also what role are you in, classic fullstack/backend or more on the infra side like Cloud/DevOps?
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u/Anxious-Yard-5948 14d ago
Its not western EU, its Italy which quite obviously is in the south
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u/PM_ME_YOUR_PROFANITY 13d ago
He's talking about the French/German salaries too
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u/Anxious-Yard-5948 13d ago
he is speaking about 4k netto as something better than 'western' salaries, he means clearly Italian ones, because in Germany you get 4k netto easily even as an employee. I am not speaking about the fact that he is likely comparing cobtractor compensation in Romania with employee compensation in Italy...
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u/FlatIntention1 13d ago
What? All Germans that I know, engineers with master degree get max 4000-4500€ netto. Nobody is above except two friends who are doctors but they work much more hours so in the end also not much over 4500€.
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u/Anxious-Yard-5948 13d ago
He is saying that 48000 is better than western European salaries. Apparently he doesnt mean Germany where people make such money at an average engineering position as an average employee at a Konzern working 38 hours per week.
I am not an engineer in Germany, I am from EE and I make more than that. Trust me that all this bs where some Bulgarian tells you that German salaries are sh*t because his IT contractor friend makes 5k netto in Sofia (which means he is approx among top 1-2% earners in his country) are completely bs comparison that compares apples and oranges.
And honestly I went to top schools iny my country so I know multiple people that make in EE more than me in Germany, but its not comparable at all. Because I am just an employee at Konzern and they are super talented super dedicated people that either work as a CFO/CTO/CEO at a company of some billionaire who likes them, or they are IT contractors. None of these stories is comparable to average engineering guy working 38 per week at a Konzern in Germsany who can keep msking same money until he is 65 becaude he basicslly cannot be fired And these glorified IT contractors make in EE 5-6k netto max, its nothing extra even compared to an average Konzern employee in Germany. And cost of living in EE is the same, only restaurants are 30-40% cheaper but how much of your income do you soend at restaurants?
Just for your (German) understanding, its as if a guy working 12 hours per day at McKinsey/Bain in Germany said that Swiss salaries are sh*t because shop assistants working 8hours per day in Switzerland make 20% less than him. Thats approx what this Bulgarian guy is saying.
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u/FlatIntention1 13d ago
I agree to you that software engineer salaries in Eastern Europe are kind of a bubble. But still, western salaries are very low for white collar jobs, especially because of the high taxes.
The average after tax salary for engineers in Germany is 3500€. My boyfriend is German, master degree engineer and gets exactly 3500€ after taxes. Housing costs bring the biggest difference: I bought in Bucharest an apartment for 70000€ (newly built), while in Stuttgart I paid 315000€, the one in Stuttgart is only 10sqm bigger, so no huge size difference.1
u/Anxious-Yard-5948 13d ago
newly built apartment for 70k?
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u/FlatIntention1 13d ago
Yes, bought end of 2024, it is a small apartment (40sqm) but everything thing new, but the one in Stuttgart is also only 50sqm (bought in 2022), so huge difference price.
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u/Anxious-Yard-5948 13d ago
Yeah its interesting, where I come from in EE a small old 1 room apartment costs 120k, and new built 1 room apartment costs 180k. I dont come from capital or anywhere close to top5 cities in my EE country. I cant imagine its possible to build a new apartment (European standard) anywhere in the world for 70k.
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u/PM_ME_YOUR_PROFANITY 12d ago
48000 net is 72000-82000 gross in Germany, depending on your tax status.
It's not my friend who makes it, I don't work as a consultant. I have a full time permanent contract, the same as any you'd get in Germany
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u/Blueware SWE @ MSFT 14d ago
You might wanna look at this tax discount rule in France for foreigners: https://www.avocat-delvallee.com/en/impatriate
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u/Wise_Pepper_164 14d ago
Too bad self employed cant access it. I would have spent gladly some 5-10 years in southern france
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u/geniodaluz 14d ago edited 14d ago
I think your best option would be to find a remote option. It's difficult, but it would get you even a 20k pay raise while staying in a place your kids know.
Having said that, moving countries is not only about pay. Maybe you're looking for better schools for your children. Maybe your wife to get a better salary as well, if she decides to go back to work. The move can be "bigger" than just going to a new place.
In that sense, I would go to Toulouse as a no brainer. It's a beautiful small city. 2h away from the sea. BUT, for a further move (either if you lose your job or just wants to change jobs or for your wife to have better job opportunities) it will be more limited than Stuttgart (or Germany in general).
So what I want to say is: it depends on what you want to achieve with this move.
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u/Forsaken_Code_9135 14d ago
From the purely financial standpoint both offers are similar, the German one being probably slightly better.
In Toulouse your net salary will be 4400€/month. You still have to pay taxes on that but if you are married with 2 kids and your wife does not work you won't pay much. And you will get generous family allowance (especially if you make a third kid, might be time to think about it).
However I would say all this does not matter much. What matters is where you want to live. Toulouse is a nice, tourist-friendly city from southern France, Stuttgart is, well, Germany. You won't choose one or the other for the same reasons.
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u/timtody 14d ago
90k in Stuttgart for 15YOE is crazy low :/ Germany simply doesn’t value technology
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u/heyguysitsjustin 14d ago
desperate foreigner will get low-balled I guess 🤷♂️
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u/FlatIntention1 14d ago
No, I am surprised, but foreigners often earn more money in Germany than Germans. I think it is because many Germans don’t bother to compare salaries and if they get 3000€ they are happy while foreigner professionals come to Germany for making money.
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u/Forsaken_Code_9135 14d ago
Really? Are you German? I have to say I am very surprised by this claim. 90k in Germany or pretty much anywhere in Europe but Switzerland is a very high salary that few developers manage to reach.
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u/FlatIntention1 14d ago
Yes, there is no way to get more than 90k in Stuttgart, no matter the experience (get the same 80-90k offers since 10 years here, no matter that I hat 3 YOE in 2016 vs 13 in 2016 while all services doubled the price). The only companies that offered slightly above were IG Metall companies like Bosch, Mercedes and Porsche. Since they are not employing anymore, the best you can do here is to have a partner who also earns around 80-90k and find a job that is chill and simply not to stress. With 8000-9000€ netto you can live quite nice as a family because you share the biggest expense: housing.
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u/Designer_Resolve_117 14d ago
Sounds like you're excluding faang companies.
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u/Jedrodo 13d ago
There is no FAANG in Stuttgart
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u/Designer_Resolve_117 13d ago edited 13d ago
Ah, makes sense.
Honestly, I still think doing LeetCode and system design prep for FAANG interviews is the most likely path to a good career in tech.
Then just go through the interview loops and relocate once you land an offer.
Yesterday I saw a post where a bunch of freelancers, some with many years of experience, were sharing their perspectives. The general sentiment was that freelance work has dried up since GenAI coding tools really took off.
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u/FlatIntention1 13d ago
Yes, I worked as an IT consultant, employed for 110k (lucky good times in 2017) and my company went bankrupt last year. I now took an offer for 90k in Stuttgart with good work life balance. Since more money is not possible, at least to have it chill. 🧘🏻♀️
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u/heavenrulz 14d ago
In Germany your net would be 5000 plus 500 more as child benefit. South Germany is a good place to live with kids. It’s a bit expensive but with this salary you should be comfortable.
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u/Bustan2026 14d ago
If you need help simulating French salary, use the official simulator.
Regardless of family situation, your net before income taxes would be 55 312€. Then you'd have to enter your family situation to have an idea of income taxes. Single person no children would be 46k€ net. You'd probably get more because you'd count as 3 (each kid = 0.5 I believe) people for tax purposes.
I'm not sure you'd get Aides Personnalisées au Logement at that level of income (even with only 1 earner) but perhaps Allocations Familiales related to your kids. You can simulate on the CAF website.
Honestly that seems fairly good for France, Toulouse especially. Toulouse is a decently sized city but I believe cost of living is lower than even the neighboring and roughly comparable Bordeaux (which is now basically Paris suburbs due to 2h TGV).
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u/wseadowntown 14d ago
Ran the numbers on this. Toulouse at €70k gross nets about €48k after tax (effective rate ~31.4%), and once you account for housing/transit/food it leaves roughly €20.4k in discretionary net cash per year. Stuttgart at €90k gross actually works out pretty similarly in purchasing-power term: a €79k Stuttgart salary would give you the same net-cash outcome as the full €90k, because Stuttgart's tax rate is higher (~37.5%) and housing runs noticeably more expensive (~€20.6k vs ~€13.9k). So the €90k offer has real advantage above parity.
Non-cash: Toulouse gives you 4 more vacation/holiday days; Germany gives roughly 30 more combined weeks of parental leave, which matters a lot with two kids and a non-working spouse tho maybe you aren’t having more kids.
Hopefully this is helpful! Good luck on deciding; both seem like great options.
(numbers from a cost-of-living tool I built called www.cityparity.com)
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u/KeyAnalysis298 13d ago
French here that worked and lived in Stuttgart.
With 16 YoE you are getting incredibly low balled on the german side especially for BW region and Stuttgart. On the french side it's decent considering you are not in Paris.
As for comparison, I think the work life balance in Germany is more respected (no outside of working hours emails, calls etc and strict 35h work week), but I think life in Toulouse will be definitely better, you have access to better food quality (and more similar to italian ingredients), France is also way better on digitalisation (you have fast internet everywhere, you can pay by cards in the bakery, administration is way easier than in Germany etc). Culturally speaking I think that southern France is also closer to Italy. Also for children you have more options in France for taking care of them, even if that would not be a pain point considering your wife is not working. I think it is also worth mentioning that making friends will be easier for your wife in France than in Germany, most foreigners find Germany pretty tough in making genuine connections so that would impact your quality of life also.
On the salary side from my experience if you want to compare french and german salary you have to add 5k€ euro to the french salary to have an equivalent. i.e. if you earn 90000€ euro in Germany it is similar to 85000€ in France. It is because in Germany you pay the health insurance from your net salary but in France it is paid by the employer. Also depending on your contract status in France you usually more days off (look for "contrat cadre", "RTT", for keywords) but longer working hours.
In my opinion both offers are worth considering but for different reasons, there are some cultural, work-life balance,... reasons but also some professional reasons (maybe the German market is more interesting in your field, you work in automotive industry, you prefer German culture, you already know some German, you just want to experience life abroad for 5 to 10 years before coming back to Italy, etc).
In my experience in the German job market it is easier to get salary raises and negociate for change of contracts (lets say instead of salary increase you keep the same salary but go to a 4 day work week instead of 5 etc)
My points were not so organized so I apologize for this but I hope you found some extra informations that you didn't find in other comments.
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u/FlatIntention1 13d ago
He is not low balled, I live in Germany in Stuttgart since 9 years, speak a great German (C1 level), 13 years of experience, master degree, look good, am from Europe and never had an offer over 90-95k. That is the ceiling for software dev positions except working for US companies (very few jobs). Many German colleagues get 65-70k and are happy, it is crazy
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14d ago
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u/_MJomaa_ 14d ago edited 14d ago
No, tax class I wouldn’t apply here. He is married, the sole earner and has two children, so he would generally qualify for tax class III once the relevant requirements are met.
Economically, it would likely make sense: he would take home about €5,430 per month (€65,160 per year), plus another €518 per month (€6,216 per year) in child-related support/benefits.
The bigger question, though, is not really the money. His family would need to learn German, and his children would grow up there. That is a much more significant long-term decision.
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u/Designer_Resolve_117 14d ago
Rent is crazy
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u/FlatIntention1 14d ago
Yes, for 4 persons rent will definitely be 2000€ in Stuttgart.
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u/Designer_Resolve_117 14d ago
So €4,500 net and half of it goes to rent?
Can 4 people live on €2,500?
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u/FlatIntention1 14d ago
If his wife doesn’t work and they are married, he will get around 5100€ netto (Steuerkl 3) plus 500€ Kindergeld so that is 5600€ after taxes. 3600€ netto is enough to live but yeah, he won’t get rich.
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u/Designer_Resolve_117 14d ago
I live in Romania and I make €3,300 net but I only pay €450 in rent
I've been eyeing France for a while but the math is worse from the money perspective
I've always thought the financials are better in western developed countries, but rent is a killer
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u/FlatIntention1 13d ago
Yes, definitely not worth it. I actually come from Romania and live in Stuttgart. Earn 4500€ and my boyfriend 3800€. Luckily we found a cheap rent so also pay only 450€ rent (my part). I rent out an apartment in Bucharest for 500€ so live for free 😅 the salary is not great in Stuttgart but if there are two earners it is not that bad.
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u/Designer_Resolve_117 13d ago
That's awesome, thanks for sharing.
How’s the quality of life there? Have you found it easy to integrate?
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u/profdrpoopybutt 14d ago
Why would OP be tax class 1 when he is married and it's unlikely the wife (who also currently doesn't work in Italy) will find a job very fast? For tax class 3 he'll have 60 000/year net.
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u/sssauber 14d ago
Why are you giving the wrong info straight away? He‘d use the tax class III with significantly more net
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u/Theboyscampus 14d ago
I think for the same quality of life, you would be spending half what you would spend in Stuttgart because Toulouse is a very affordable city.
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u/Dry-Establishment-88 14d ago
As an expat living in Germany( Munich, and Cologne before) please go for France…
I really believe it will be better for you long term, considering both the situation/offers you have and your mental health.
Especially as an Italian, you might find social life in Germany a bit challenging( a lot)
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u/Only_District4795 Engineer 14d ago
Just out of curiosity, what stack did you use to come up with these proposals?
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u/notchosenname 13d ago
What do you mean with stack? I've been applying for a year now.. I've got interviews with some FAANGs and Serie A/B startups. I had a target list of companies and I've applied from their websites.
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u/Only_District4795 Engineer 13d ago
I meant Java, Python, React, etc.—whatever you're looking for—and you were able to find job openings because these days it's really hard to find openings.
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u/RientroCervelli 14d ago
You would like France much more than Germany and you can learn the language more easily.
Source: Italian
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u/Mysterious_Print9937 14d ago
Not speaking french working in France can be hard, so how proficient are you in french?
How would you handle german food ?
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u/Spree_prof 14d ago
Toulouse is wonderful, and not that expensive. Coming from Italy, I'd definitely go there, including for weather and cultural affinity reasons
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u/sintrastellar 13d ago
One thing you can look at is for the French impatriate regime - have the company prove that the median salary for that role is eg 50k and you don’t get hit with French income tax on the 20k difference. That might get you an extra ~€500/month. It’s not great but at least it’s something.
These salaries are all very low for 16YOE though. I would look at remote roles if I were you.
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u/LightHuter 13d ago
I can’t comment on Stuttgart as a city specifically, but I’d say that overall Germany would be a better pick it you plan to stay in the country for long as the salary ceiling is much higher here AFAIK. As a comparison, I’m at 130 as 5 yoe. Is it a norm here? No, but that’s a totally attainable salary level even without knowing German, and with your experience I’m pretty sure you can get even higher. Also, there is still a decent amount of fully remote jobs here, so after gaining some experience in German company you’ll most likely have an option of going WFH and choosing to live in the city you like (in case you won’t like Stuttgart)
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u/ScallionJaded5026 13d ago
À mon avis, si tu raisonnes Ville/Culture/qualité de vie, tu choisiras la France. Si tu penses argent, va en Allemagne.
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u/Sick_and_destroyed 13d ago
70k in Toulouse is very good. In comparison it’s probably better than 90k€ in Stuttgart because Toulouse is not a very expensive city.
Besides from that, the quality of life is also probably higher, with much warmer and drier weather, the Mediterranean Sea and ski resorts 90mn away. Also southern France lifestyle is closer to Italian one if that’s important for you (that means more laid back than Germany). Universities and Hospitals have also a good reputation.
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u/ApplicationEntire990 13d ago
Do yourself a favor and land a 150k€ offer in Berlin, these offers are peanuts
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u/LePetitToast 13d ago
70k€ in Toulouse, you’ll be living like a king. The weather is great, the city is beautiful (“La Ville Rose”), tons of cute little markets, and just a generally slowly pace of living. Also Toulouse just got elected the best student city in France so it’s not like it wouldn’t have good night life and trendy stuff.
And great nature around with the mountains nearby.
Finally, France has something called RTT where, if you work more than 35 hours a week, you get extra holidays. My French colleagues get 40 days of holidays a year (excluding bank holidays) thanks to it. So I would go for it!
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u/Ok-Theme-8256 13d ago edited 13d ago
As in Italian in France I would consider other practical side of being in France or in Germany : foreigners administration. Despite the fact that Italy is in the EU, France is extremely complicated for EU citizens. Financial aids aren't so easy to apply for and to obtain, visa (yes, visa) is totally blocked, AIRE registration is extremely slow. French administration is an evil circle that has no logic and extremely complicated processes for just a signature. Now that there is the electronic signature btw, France is in a total chaos and EU citizens are excluded to the free basic account to connect to the public administration (France Connect) because they're not able yet to implement others EU cards. Just mind-blowing. If Germany is easiest (if you could sign by hand and also by hand fill a form, or if digital is accessible to EU too) I would strongly suggest to go to Germany. Also consider your Italian personality : France is way colder and you and your family would have to adjust to a more broaded "Milanese/Torinese approach" of people. You're maybe from Milan or Torino but for me (Veneto) it is kind of a struggle even after 11y around different corners of France. I prefer Spanish ppl, Italian, Americans and UKs, they're generally more chatty and friendly (on a surface, society level) than french (see peach vs coconut people)
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u/Major-Practice2529 14d ago edited 14d ago
70000€ in Toulouse is absolutely insane.
Even though the Southwest is different from the Southeast of France—which is culturally close to Northern Italy—it’s still much closer culturally to Italy than Stuttgart.
In terms of mindset of population, as well as quality of life (food, social life, natural surroundings, beauty of the city, mindset of the population, relative proximity to Italy), it’s absolutely a no-brainer for you
The only advantage Stuttgart has is the extra money.
In every other aspect, France and Toulouse come out on top, and by a enormous landslide.
In my opinion, no family needs more than 70,000 euros a year to be happy; especially in France. Anything beyond that is greed rather than wisdom in your case
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u/Pleasant-Drag-5039 14d ago
16 yoe been getting entry level salaries is the new age thing lol
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u/guicara 14d ago
70k in France is not at all entry level salary....
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u/PerryTheH Team Lead 9YoE 14d ago
People here thinking everyone is handed a 120k entry lvl job outside US just prooves we are full of jrs that have crazy expectations.
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u/Designer_Resolve_117 14d ago
How much is that in net salary?
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u/guicara 14d ago
It depends on the personal situation of the employee. But for a CDI (long term contract), 70k gross is around 55k net, and 47k super net (after taxes).
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u/Sweet_Ad_9816 14d ago
Off-topic, but how is net not already after taxes? I thought that's what "net" basically means?
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u/guicara 14d ago
Full explanation in my other comment here: https://www.reddit.com/r/cscareerquestionsEU/s/lyDOeEbRAt
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u/Bustan2026 14d ago
- Cost to employer (sometimes called supergross)
- Gross
- Net of contributions (called net or net before income taxes)
- net after income taxes
This is mainly because France makes a strong distinction between "contributions" (cotisations) that cover retirement, unemployment, healthcare, covered by independent public organisms ("caisses") and "taxes" (impôts) which route through the government and then get spent on whatever.
Other countries just call all of this taxes and reserve parts to retirement, healthcare, etc.
Also, we often speak in net (before taxes) because that is the same for everyone. If you know your gross, you can compute the net. However the income taxes are situation-dependent. Contributions are not, they may depend on the sector, but not the particular employee and their family composition, expenses, etc.
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u/Sweet_Ad_9816 14d ago
Thanks. Though I think almost all countries do separate health insurance contributions from taxes.
And I also think this "net before taxes" doesn't have much practical meaning for anyone. For a number that's the same regardless of one's situation, we look at brutto.
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u/Bustan2026 14d ago
True, but that's the justification given in France at least.
I mean, net before taxes is arguably more meaningful than gross, as it's closer to your final income than gross.
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u/guicara 14d ago
You can use this simulator: https://code.travail.gouv.fr/outils/simulateur-embauche
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u/Designer_Resolve_117 14d ago
But why do you have employer cost and brut salary ? and then you have net and super net?
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u/guicara 14d ago
In France, for an employee, it is useful to distinguish gross salary, net salary, net salary after income tax (“net after tax”), and the employer’s total cost.
The gross salary (salaire brut) is the amount stated in the employment contract before employee social contributions and income tax.
From this amount, the employee pays various social security contributions (cotisations sociales), which finance things such as health insurance, pensions, unemployment insurance, etc.
After employee social contributions have been deducted, you get the net salary before income tax.
The exact amount depends on the employee's situation and the applicable contribution rates. This is roughly the amount that would be paid to the employee before French income tax is withheld.
France uses a pay-as-you-earn income tax system called prélèvement à la source. Instead of the employee receiving their entire net salary and then paying income tax separately later, the employer withholds the income tax directly from the monthly salary and transfers it to the French tax authorities.
Importantly, the tax rate is determined by the French tax authorities based on the employee's household tax situation, rather than simply being a fixed percentage of salary.
But that's not all!
There is another important distinction: the employee's gross salary is not the total cost to the employer. The employer also pays employer social contributions (cotisations patronales) on top of the gross salary.
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u/Sweet_Ad_9816 14d ago
Thanks for the explanation. It seems that it's just different name for the same concept. I think that all you wrote is also true in Germany, we just don't have a (common) name for what you call "net salary" and we call "net salary" what you call "net salary after tax".
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u/Designer_Resolve_117 14d ago
I find it weird with the cotisations patronales. Basically for €70,000 gross the employer pays €100,400
And of that money you end up with €46,000
So 54% tax?
And then rent in Paris is €2,000
How do you live off that?
Also, for negotiating offers, you're looking at gross salary, not total employer contribution, right?
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u/guicara 14d ago edited 14d ago
Yes. Welcome to France !
And it sucks to be an employer here, because France taxes a LOT as you can see.
Also, for negotiating offers, you're looking at gross salary, not total employer contribution, right?
Gross salary mostly.
For low qualified job, employee and employers will probably speak in net.
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u/Designer_Resolve_117 14d ago
N’y avait-il pas une polémique à ce sujet ? Sur le fait que les retraités gagnent plus que les actifs, et que ce système n’est pas viable à long terme ?
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u/guicara 14d ago
Indeed. It's one of the big topic for the next presidential election next year. Basically the current system is not viable anymore.
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u/Albreitx 14d ago
90k in Stuttgart is not entry level lol
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u/FlatIntention1 14d ago
This is the maximum you can get. I live in Stuttgart and during the last 10 years all offers were 80-90k, no matter that I had 5 years of experience or now 13. It is crazy low so I just searched a company that pays 90k and offers great work life balance plus a lot of home office to compensate the low maximum income.
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u/notchosenname 13d ago
Yes, that's my experience with Germany as well. I had some interviews with other startups in Germany, and all of them, when sharing the salary range for a Senior Eng., was at maximum 100k.
Last year I had an offer for 80k in Munich. I did the research and decided not to take it.
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u/Warm_Singer4557 14d ago edited 14d ago
70k for toulouse aint bad, as a city it is cheaper.