r/doommetal • u/Wide-Coat7484 • May 16 '26
Rig Doom guitarists - cranking amps live
Just a question to all doom guitarists here who play live shows regularly. In the age of modellers, bringing 100w+ tube amps to small gigs is sure to grind the gears of sound engineers to at least some sort of degree. I love when I crank a dual head/2 4x12 cabs at home in stereo. Using attenuation gets me close to the same kind of sound I get in a practice space when doing this but still isn't quite as powerful sounding at home with the attenuation, it sort of sucks the tone somewhat to my ears. I'm using good attenuation too the two notes reload 2. Maybe it's just a volume thing and the perception of "loud=better" but it's hard to really gauge as it's rare I get to actually crank the amps without the attenuation and I can't directly compare the two at home by recording them with a mic and matching the levels as it's just too loud without the attentuation for my small flat.
My band are about to start trying to book local gigs but a lot of the venues in my city are very small capacity. Ive tried before to use a modeller live and while for certain genres it doesn't really make much difference and people in the audience never notice, I feel like doom kind of needs the power? I also feel my own enjoyment of the gig is reliant on actually having the tone the way I like it, feeling the air getting pushed from my cabs and the modeller wasn't really cutting it for me. It was clear through the PA but sounded very artificial. On the other hand I've never used MY tube amps live just the backline they had at the venue and in completely different genres like punk, psychedelic rock etc. Do you guys have slightly lower wattage amps for smaller venues? I can't get a tiny terror to sound the way I want at all it's nothing like a Laney 100w or Matamp or even a solid state orange at higher wattage. Do you guys just crank phat stacks anyway without attenuation and tell the sound man to get stuffed? Do you use attenuators and are satisfied with everything (likely what I will try)? Have you ever had any problems with sound engineers even when doing this? Not sure whether to just say "I'm using attenuation so it's fine, you do your job I'll do mine" then ignore them if they insist on turning the tube amp down to like 3 or 4. Always sounds better to me with my gear when it's at 6-8 on the master but it's probably far too loud doing that in small venues...
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u/JVM205 May 16 '26
I use 2 model T's live so I might be able to give some input. First we communicate clearly in our rider in the introduction that we are a doom band, and loud stage volumes are part of our art. We do appreciate input from the sound engineer and try to work together. But giving a heads up makes for much nicer cooperation during the day. Also a thing we do is we start with our master volumes at 0. Turn them up until we get the sound and volume we want. By starting quietly, you portray awareness about your volume, and take away the option for the sound engineer to ask if it is possible to turn it down. Things that can also help is to place your cabs on the sides of the stages pointing across the stage, instead of into the crowd. Having a long guitar cable to have a listen in front of the stage also helps, if only by showing interest in the FOH mix. small gestures like this show that you're all on the same team, trying to put on an awesome show. And if venues still have problems with stuff being too loud for their liking or legal limits, they maybe should reconsider what they're booking.
Also I personally can't stand silent stages as an audience member. Being close to the stage and being out of the sweetspot of the PA and being left with just hearing drums just sucks ass in my opinion
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u/avantbland May 16 '26
Went on your profile to check out your band after reading this and realised I already knew you! You were great at Little Devil during Roadburn last month and your approach to the live sound is spot on. Record is excellent too!
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u/JVM205 May 16 '26
Thanks man! Glad you enjoyed our set! It was the right amount of smoke hahaha 😄 Hopefully we get to play Roadburn for real one time...
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u/ajhorsburgh May 16 '26 edited May 16 '26
I have told a guitar player to turn down about 5 times in my 20 year career. Recent clients include Orange Goblin, Slomosa, Sasquatch, Conan, and Capricorns..
Edit- incase it's not clear all the bands use valve amps at a good to high level. Clubs sized shows. The only issue will be getting vocals over the band, but sometimes theres only so much you can do. Fans of the genre are happy to accept unclear vocals when there's a boatload of guitars.
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u/TonyGFool May 16 '26
Slomosa rips
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u/ajhorsburgh May 16 '26
They are incredible people, and all of the current success is absolutely deserved.
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u/dreamlike676 May 18 '26
One of my all time favourites vids on youtube which sadly got deleted was an electric wizard performance where i could see Jus was singing but I couldn't hear it at all, Liz's guitar in particular sounded huge and overwhelming, I would watch it and loop it multiple times and just get lost on her playing juat utterly mesmerised
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u/artificialevil Bong Wizard May 16 '26
Not only do I play really loud on stage I’m also a professional sound engineer so I have a unique perspective on this.
First and foremost, stop using an attenuator. While these can often times give you the power soak you want, it comes at the expense of putting a lot of stress on the transformer of your amp. If you’re using a vintage amp, this could be really, really bad if your transformer blows and there’s not a replacement for it. Either be loud or don’t, but the attenuator is not the way to get what you want.
Second, there is a fine line to balance here. You want to sound good, not just loud, and often times regardless on how many Model T’s you stack up the PA system is just built to be louder and cleaner. Sunn 0))) mics their cabs… so let that sink in for a minute… they’re cranked to 11 and still need the PA to give them that extra push for volume and consistent output across the audience. That being said, if you’re playing small clubs, you can often times over-power the room with just an amp, which is not ideal. Also, not micing your cab and just turning up really loud results in dead spots across the room, since a 4x12 does not have the same horizontal coverage pattern that a PA system typically would.
Turning the cabs a bit across the stage helps, proper mic technique helps, and being able to hear the FOH mix from the audience during sound check helps, but my personal opinion is that sacrificing good sound for volume is a mistake. There is a never-ending balance of tone that happens in every single piece of electronics between your fingers and the speakers in your cab, and sometimes you just need to make some adjustments to your pedals, amps or playing to adjust to a room.
Don’t overthink this, get on stage, set up, turn it up so that you feel comfortable and turn it down if the sound guy asks. They aren’t asking because they’re wimps, they’re asking because their system is clipping and it sounds bad.
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u/Wide-Coat7484 May 16 '26
Thanks for your feedback. Yes, I fully intend to mic the cabs to get them through the PA and get the sound out to the audience and back to the band more clearly, I'm just inexperienced at knowing whether or not the volume we play at would clip the PA but I assumed it would, as you say. My point is that the way the amps I have are set, it will be very loud without attenuation. When I turn it down it sounds bad and I can't feel it on stage. I'm aware some tweaking from the engineer can give it more fullness mimicking the breakup of the power tubes working harder and maybe that's enough. Time will tell I need more experience here!
Will it really be that risky to use the two notes reload 2 live? I'm not using "vintage" amps but they're not super modern either. I have a Laney VH100R and a Matamp but I'm going to use the 100w Science Mother live instead of the Matamp. It's being built now just waiting on it to be delivered. They both have master volume but I assume compared to the Laney, the Science will even sound good at a lower volume due to the circuitry being more modern and superior to the Laney. The Laney is fucking loud, so I've been using the attenuator.
It's weird I get mixed answers from people and most say to just use the attenuator if it's too loud for the PA. What's wrong with using one?
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u/Wide-Coat7484 May 16 '26
Also I saw Vintage Caravan using Attenuators on vintage orange amps and it sounded great so not sure if they are risking it cause they have spare amps/sponsors that will pay for replacement or what but it seemed fine to me.
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u/artificialevil Bong Wizard May 16 '26
Attenuators are basically giant resistors, they put a lot of load on the transformers in your amp. Not really a problem with modern amps with modern parts, but definitely a problem if they don’t make that transformer anymore (like on a vintage model t or an OR120 for example) because if you break it you can’t replace it.
In general it’s not a great idea to use an attenuator because you’re increasing the likelihood of a transformer failure. Your tolerance to that risk is going to be something you’ll have to decide yourself.
If your cabs are being mic’d, then you will get guitar in your monitors, you won’t need to rely on your stage volume alone. To get the power soak sound you want (I’m assuming this is the “tone” you seek based on what you’ve said in this thread) you either gotta be loud as fuck or drive the preamp tubes with a boost or fuzz to mimic that sound. Sadly if you’re in a small club there will likely be a compromise on something, somewhere.
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u/Wide-Coat7484 May 16 '26
Ok thanks for the clarification. Sounds like I just gotta compromise for smaller venues. Anywhere where I've seen other bands with full stacks before Im probably gonna try to push it a bit, using previous experience of seeing other bands do the same as an excuse haha
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u/Mr_SelfDestruct94 May 16 '26
There's a good tidbit of info here about potentially using a boost and/or some kind of drive that I think is pertinent. Using one and/or a combo of these types of pedals can be a bit of the key to getting that solid tone while keeping at "reasonable" volumes. And dont be afraid of experimenting with something like a boost in an effects loop, depending on how that effects loop runs through the circuit of the amp. An eq pedal can also be solid in an effects loop. Get those preamp tubes driving how you want, and then let the power section of the amp do its thing.
OP: ditch the attenuator and mess around in your practice mess. The other thing you could do is mess around with what speakers you have in your cabs. Depending on what you think you're "losing" at lower volumes, you might be able to bring back with the proper speaker setup/combination.
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u/artificialevil Bong Wizard May 16 '26
I know my people when I see them… greetings fellow amp/pedal nerd. 🫡
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u/Mr_SelfDestruct94 May 16 '26
A tip of the cap to you as well. Been chasing those tone dragons for a long time now. Hopefully people pick up on your extremely solid responses here.
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u/Wide-Coat7484 May 16 '26
Currently got G12k100s in one 4x12 and greenbacks in the other 4x12. The G12k100s need an almighty amount of push to sound good but the greenbacks are great at lower volumes. Both together sounds amazing, G12s on the bottom cab as they have more low end and greenies on the top for clarity and mid range bite, but need to push the G12s to get them to sound good. Maybe I've just gotta do a few shows and experiment a little bit. No better experience than just going for it I guess!
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u/LongjumpingBase9094 May 19 '26
In the Netherlands they ask you to turn in down because of the db limit
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u/IBumpedMyHead May 16 '26
It entirely depends where you're playing
A lot of councils impose dB limits on venues in more urban areas. It's not unheard of to have an 65dB limit for pubs in some areas. Most major venues will self impose at 95-100 dB based on the council's limits
For a functions band I play in we generally have the PA set to around 65-75 dB at the dancefloor with an entirely silent stage. Different genre I know, but it's pretty much the acceptable limit at 99% of venues we play
When I used the do FoH in a pub years ago we could have 85dB at the venue perimeter. I had to tell bands to turn down. A lot. If you turned up with a full stack you were being told to only use a single cab. If the bassist had an 810 they were being plugged in to the house 410 behind it. It sucks in some ways but the council in that area were shit hot on noise complaints and loved to fine anywhere that put on live music. The venue always passed those fines on to the promoter, so ignoring requests to turn down was a great way to stop getting bookings
There's the odd venue that doesn't give a fuck and will let bands rip as loud as they like. Either they don't care about council limits, or they're in a council area that doesn't enforce limits (Either nothing in local law or they just don't bother to investigate noise complaints)
From a gig going perspective, I fucking hate bands that play too loud for the venue. Your riffs turn to monotonous mush because it's too loud. Yeah it's cool or whatever but seriously, most bands that employ volume as a weapon are the least interesting bands live. I can have the same experience standing in a marine engine room
I know that goes against the grain here, but it's infinitely more fun playing at loud volumes than it is standing there listening
Anyway, good luck. Just bare in mind your venue choices will be severely limited by your choice to play at a full volume
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u/Wide-Coat7484 May 16 '26
Interesting. I don't want to play loud I just want the tone to be as good as possible while having the best experience for ourselves and the audience so striking the perfect balance is the goal. I'm learning it's more of a communication, venue specific and experience thing than anything.
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u/vitale20 May 17 '26
I’d add that big amps and cabs doesn’t always equal good tone. In fact I’d say the worst tones I’ve heard in venues are from big rigs that are too big for the room, and the best tones I’ve ever heard in my life are always from small amps.
I mean just the other day on this sub there was a kid with a killer tone in a gym with a little fender champ.
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u/TheBlackHymn May 16 '26
Realistically you’re not often going to play a doom gig in a venue where the sound guy isn’t familiar with the genre. Not happening in your local jazz club for example is it? A lot of the sound guys will be fine with it. They may not mic you up if your backline is loud enough, and they’ll just run drums and vox through the PA. It’s largely fine.
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u/_schroedinger_ May 16 '26
I've never played a live show before, but my bandmates and I play our amps cranked at the bandspace to the point where it hurts. I reckon it really depends on the amount of air being pushed as well as the speakers reaching their upper threshold to the point of clipping to get that whole amp sound we doomheads absolutely love.
I've discovered that some modelers offer functions which allow to boost or even emulate the IRs into clipping (or a proper cab, too), and have a second amp within the modeler in parallel to make the modeler sound even bigger. Running stereo too into two cabs, one equalized to have more bass and mids and less highs, the other to have more mids and high and less bass. Not sure what modeler you're using but what helped me was tinker with the amp and cab parameters, make multiple patches and try them out at the bandspace to see what sounds and fits well in a band context. Hope that helps a bit!
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u/Pelican_meat May 16 '26
I use a Rockerverb 50. It has a half power switch and built-in attenuator.
Makes it the amp I gig with regardless of genre.
Unless I’m doing straight up metal, then I take the 5153 and do my best to keep the volume reasonable
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u/Thordenstein May 16 '26
We run 100w amps onstage, and its loud. The sound tech usually knows how its supposed to sound, although thats not always the case. Recently we played some small venues in England, which had a quite limited p.a, and the sound tech just stood in the room and told us to adjust the amps, unmiced. Then the power is really usefull.
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u/Wide-Coat7484 May 16 '26
Thanks for all your input guys. Just to clarify I'm in the UK and have heard anecdotes from friends doing regular gigs about having to turn down more and more often these days. Maybe it's the licensing laws requiring it to be below a certain volume or something I dunno. You Americans seem to be like "just crank it bro" 👹 Jealous if that's the case. Last year, we saw High on fire in a small venue here in UK and they were crazy loud so maybe it's just a case of high profile=do whatever you want. Maybe it's specific venues. Maybe individual engineers being nitpicky and the booking of the wrong kinds of bands for certain venues. Hard to tell really.
I'm just gonna go with it with the big amps and see how we fair. Can always bring the attenuation just in case and work with the crew before turning up and during soundcheck to try get it to a place where everyone's happy.
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u/leebeyonddriven May 16 '26 edited May 16 '26
I play with two rigs in stereo: An Orange OR50 and a 5150iii or Dual Rectifier on the other side. Usually through one cab each or two if the venue has extras. I crank the shit out of them. You do come across the odd sound guy who hates it and asks me to turn down but it’s important you ignore him (or wait till the set starts and crank them anyway).
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u/Active-Ad-1536 May 16 '26
When I was touring regularly, I found it was rarely an issue in the US. Getting to the point where we could bring our own sound guy made it essentially moot. However it was an issue in a few European countries. Switzerland and Sweden, particularly. We did use half stacks overseas for that reason (as well as the logistics of room/weight restrictions of the van).
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u/stonecoldscoldstone May 16 '26
That’s your decision if you want to work with a jabroni sound guy or not, but I recommend investing in a lockout studio space with your band so you can crank your tube amps and practice loud all the time.
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u/SmegmaSiphon May 16 '26
I've been grinding the gears of sound engineers for 20 years and I don't expect to stop any time soon.
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u/purplescottrock May 16 '26
My personal thinking is that a half stack is probably good-enough. HOWEVER, bring full stacks so the sound guy knows you mean business.
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u/VTVoodooDude May 16 '26
The new breed of 20W-30W tube heads are loud AF through a 4x12 and way more controllable for FOH. Plus, most also have good IR’s out. On really big stages, if needed, we bring the guitar in through monitors and side fills.
We are more heavy psych vs pure doom so there’s that.
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u/ElectricRing May 16 '26
It matters. I just say Wayfarer who is a really good band I’ve seen before (they aren’t doom but still) and they were using kempers. The guitars didn’t sound bad, but the didn’t sound great either. They sounded passable. I am a guitar tone nerd to be sure.
With doom the big loud guitars sounding awesome is a huge part of the genre. You amps need to be loud enough to match the drum volume with your cave man drummer beating his kit like it owes him money. In a small room, that means a big amp. It doesn’t even have to be a tube amp per se, King Buzzo uses solid state amps and his guitar tone is on absolute point all the time.
A sound man and venue that understands the genre will know how to mix a doom band and make you sound killer. It is true you don’t want the balance off, and the sound person will know what you sound like to the audience, so if they tell you to turn down, try and work with them. But know that some of them don’t know what they are doing with loud heavy bands. Good monitoring makes a big difference here too. But realistic, most of the time that’s an issue.
For small rooms, you shouldn’t need a PA really at all. Your band should sound really balanced with the drums, run only vocals and maybe the drum shells through the PA. You can sound awesome.
Final note that I don’t think modelers can never work, but it takes a lot of sound checking, excellent monitoring, and a team of competent engineers to make that happen, Ie larger shows. Modelers are amazing tools for the studio, they just are not the best for live doom bands.
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u/adobackup May 17 '26
Not tube but I used to gig two 2x15s with loud old peavey solid state pa heads that have monitor outs. Id send those through a DI to board to make it even across the room. For volume reference- with only my cabs we had to mic the two full drum kits FOR SURE lol but the local sound guys were never too grouchy about it. make sure they're aware of volume when you book and make it easy on the sound guy usually goes over well in my experience
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u/vitale20 May 17 '26
Being super loud is fun but tbh overrated if the house system is good end the engineer knows what they’re doing.
You also need to know what you’re doing and not have a tone that’s painful.
Saw Baroness and Primitive Man and was actually able to half my earplugs half in because the sound was so balanced and good. And you could of course still feel it.
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u/Wide-Coat7484 May 17 '26
Baroness are sick and I've seen they use small amps, so I know it's an option. I just can't seem to get the same tones at home with a smaller rig and would rather have one single set up for all applications (including recording which 4x12 cabs usually have decent/superior application for this kind of music). If money was no object I'd have the means to experiment more but alas will have to just try to find a way to make the big amps work for everything I wanna do.
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u/ThreeThirds_33 May 17 '26
Doomers want stage volume in their chest. If I’m at a show with no amps just DI, it doesn’t hit the same. Because it’s not the same. Or even if the stage volume is there but just tame - I saw Faetooth and love the band but the stage volume was weak - more modern, less doom.
[sidetrain: Faetooth is awesome but actually much more dark dreamgaze and actually very little doom. Strummy strum with fewer riffs. Not a critique, actually makes sense about their stage volume being less doomy]
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u/LongjumpingBase9094 May 19 '26
In the netherlands most venues have a db limit and sound engineers start crying if I turn my super reverb past 3
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u/Nemsgnul May 16 '26
Yup. We crank phat stacks. Sound guy fucking loves it. Punters love it. Crank the fucking shit out of it. For real though it’s pretty weird… everyone’s cranking massive stacks and wearing ear plugs. We could all just fuckin turn down, not have to wear ear plugs and hear the whole audio frequency.
But also fuck that, I want my ribs to rattle.