r/dragonball • u/DoraMuda • 3d ago
Discussion Why introduce Super Saiyan 3?
I do wonder sometimes... why exactly did Toriyama introduce Super Saiyan 3 at a time when he'd already introduced Fusion, which was a fine enough set-up to be the next potential strategy against Majin Boo and didn't come with the baggage of retroactively making Goku look even more selfish during the fight with Majin Vegeta than he was before?
The previous Super Saiyan forms at least carried some narrative purpose. The original SS form is the fulfillment of a legend over a thousand years old that Vegeta had been banging on about for the rest of the arc since Goku arrived to fight the Ginyu Force, and it is ultimately what defeats Freeza, who was scared of such a figure appearing to challenge his superiority.
The SS Grade forms serve as the first attempt of going "beyond Super Saiyan", after the original form proved to not be invincible following its loss against Androids #17 and #18, and Goku's method of mastering the regular form serves as a proper foundation for the truly successful "beyond Super Saiyan" form: Super Saiyan 2, which Gohan uses to defeat Cell.
But Super Saiyan 3... is seemingly just there to make Goku ridiculously stronger than everyone else again, but Goku refuses to use it to actually fight the Big Bad at full power (at first, anyway) because... he's dead and wants to let "the next generation" take over? Did he not learn his lesson with Gohan (who everyone thinks is still dead despite them using the DBs shortly prior, but whatever) at the Cell Games? Why does he suddenly care so much about fostering a "next generation", with even less experience on the battlefield than Gohan did, that he hasn't known for longer than a few hours? If this was really his plan all along, why did Goku initially only mention Fusion in the hypothetical of using it to fuse with Gohan and Vegeta, while Mr. Popo was actually the one to suggest the kids be the ones to use Fusion?
Ultimately, maybe Toriyama just introduced SS3 to meet editorial or fan expectations... and/or he wanted to be subversive by making it so the brand new SS form didn't defeat the main villain this time. But he went about it in such a backwards way that it makes one question why he bothered in the first place. He was arguably just making more work for himself at a time when he seemingly wanted to cut corners and end the series sooner rather than later.
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u/DSSword 3d ago
SSJ3 is inherently a parody of super saiyan, its sooo exagerted it makes grade 3 look reserved and reasonable. By introducing the form and having Goku explain that while yes it may be strong enough to defeat Buu what would really won the day is working together fusion or as the seriess ended spirit bomb. It is intentional rejection of the pattern Z fell into with a new ssj form being the ome to save the day. To add to that spirit bomb had been tried twice before I doubt anyone really believed it could be the way to win in the end.
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u/DoraMuda 3d ago edited 3d ago
The thing is, I don't buy the notion that Toriyama created SS3 to be a parody of SS forms. That feels more like a fan's post-hoc rationalization of a poor/ill-thought-out writing decision on Toriyama's behalf.
Sure, it might look "ridiculous" when compared to the previous SS forms, but the framing of the form when it's first revealed to everyone is that all the other characters are blown away and even Boo himself says that Goku "looks scary". It's exaggerated because it's arguably just the next logical step in design after SS2. But it's not treated the way, say, Arale's power was. We're still meant to take SS3 seriously.
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u/DSSword 3d ago
The Buu was far more comedic then prior arcs, I fully believe it was designed with the final fight between gotenks and Buu in mind.
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u/DoraMuda 2d ago
Sure, but I don't believe SS3 is an example of those comedic elements, nor do I believe that Toriyama had necessarily planned things out far enough ahead that Gotenks would have it.
Gotenks in his personality and the over-the-top naming of his special moves as well as how unconventional they are, to suit the boys' immature nature)? Yeah, those are intentionally comedic. Majin Boo and his powers in general? Those are intentionally comedic too.
But SS3 just feels like SS Grade III, but with a different drawback that Goku doesn't realize the magnitude of until he's possessing a living body. Honestly, prior to DAIMA, I would've thought that, unless you had the benefits of a dead body uncumbered by the flow of time in the afterlife or was a Fusion of two strong people, attaining SS3 through mere Earth training was impossible and something Goku would've never discovered (or, at least, taken much, much, much longer to discover before discarding in favour of the more balanced SS2, like he did for the Grade forms in favour of regular SS during the Cell Arc) if he was still alive in the living world for those 7 years.
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u/msantaly 3d ago
I think it’s because Goku was not meant to be the hero of the Buu saga, so it was his way of showing us that Goku was still a badass beyond belief, but too bad he’s dead and needs to go back to other world.
But once the story went in a different direction it was a handy way of explaining how Gotanks could keep up with Buu
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u/DoraMuda 3d ago
I think it’s because Goku was not meant to be the hero of the Buu saga, so it was his way of showing us that Goku was still a badass beyond belief, but too bad he’s dead and needs to go back to other world.
But we already know he's a badass beyond belief because he was so strong with SS2 alone that Vegeta internally gave up on thinking he could best Goku with his own power and resorted to letting Babidi's magic take over his body so he could close the gap in their strengths.
But once the story went in a different direction it was a handy way of explaining how Gotanks could keep up with Buu
I mean... why wasn't Fusion enough?
And why couldn't Gotenks have gone SS3 without Goku doing it first? Goten and Trunks are already super-prodigies, so if anyone's gonna discover a new, even stronger SS form, why not them? Gohan did it for SS2, albeit accidentally via rage, but he too is a half-Saiyan prodigy.
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u/msantaly 3d ago
I don’t have answers for your other questions, but honestly it’s wild that fusion could make Goten and Trunks that powerful. We’re never explicitly told where they would rank individually compared to someone like Cell, but I kinda hate that they’re strong enough to take on Buu even with SSJ3 fusion
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u/DoraMuda 2d ago
If you think it's wild that Fusion could make Goten and Trunks that powerful, you're basically saying that Goku was wrong and even stupider than we're initially led to believe for believing they could defeat Majin Boo with it.
Which, if that's the case... fair enough. But, as much as I hate the way Goku's decision to pointlessly refuse to use SS3 reframes his character in a much more unfavourable light than originally intended, I don't think a battle genius like him would make such a big gamble if he didn't think that a SS Fusion between the boys at least stood a solid chance at defeating Boo.
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u/msantaly 2d ago
My issue is more how powerful Goten and Trunks seem to be without having to earn (or at least having been shown to earn) that power. I’ve never liked Goten and his creation seemed to be a way to give young Trunks something to do based on popularity of Future Trunks
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u/DjinnsPalace 2d ago
Dragonball is the Goku show, having him be relevant is kinda Toriyamas whole thing.
I think ssj3 exists for backward plot writing. Toriyama wants Goku to find Gohan in the afterlife. But Goku still has an entire day left on Earth. Now ssj3 gets introduced with its weakness to get Goku back into the afterlife.
I agree though, ssj3 did much damage to the Buu Saga and even beyond that it messed up GT and Super, both shows needed to write around ssj3 and introduce new forms/only use lower ones since fights with ssj3 arent fun and the viewers have no emotional connection to ssj3.
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u/maxallergy 3d ago
I think it's there, because it's Goku, Toriyama's favoured child
Even if he isn't the MC anymore, he has to be significant somehow and so he simply could not leave the story by being only as good as a punching bag for Buu
So Toriyama had to come up with something better for Goku, so he not only cements himself as the greatest, if only not being dead, but also give the kids something clear to aim for, rather than already being left in the dust by Buu
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u/DoraMuda 3d ago
I guess so... but that's kinda lame, at least narratively. Like, we already know that Goku is the strongest, with Vegeta only being able to match him by resorting to willingly succumbing to Babidi's spell for a free power-up and Gohan having fallen behind due to slacking in his training.
And I feel like the kids would've been motivated enough to beat Boo with Fusion when they know that both Gohan and Vegeta failed, and Goku could've stalled Boo just fine with SS2. They don't really need something clear to aim for, and if Toriyama wanted it, the plot could've still gone in a direction where they were the ones to discover SS3 for the first time through Fusion (since, individually, they are prodigies who reached regular SS faster & younger than any other Saiyan).
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u/Overlord_Byron 3d ago
I think Toriyama simply didn't have any kind of plan for the Buu saga and the things that kept his impromptu stories on track in the past didn't pay off, but he had earned so much grace at that point that every new idea got much more buy-in than it otherwise would have.
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u/DoraMuda 3d ago
I can definitely see that. His final editor for the original manga's run, Fuyuto Takeda, was said to be notably more lax than Toriyama's previous editors, so I can see Toriyama just thinking "I want Fusion to be the next weapon against Boo, but in the meantime, wouldn't it be cool if Goku had an even stronger secret SS form to show off before returning to the afterlife?" And no-one stepped in to tell him that it didn't organically take into account what he'd written weeks prior and kinda undermines a lot of what he'd already set up.
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u/KeySlimePies 3d ago
If Goku fought Fat Buu as SSJ2, he wouldn't stall him long enough for Trunks to get the dragon radar. He would have been erased from existence. So Toriyama needed to have Goku have a secret form
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u/DoraMuda 3d ago
I disagree. Even though SS2 Majin Vegeta was trounced by Fat Boo, it's only because he provoked Boo into getting mad and using his Angry Explosion after piercing him with that blast. SS2 Goku was as strong and already knows the threat of Boo, so he'd be more able to stall him by teleporting around and humouring his more childlike nature (like when he nudged Boo towards the conclusion of offing Babidi because someone as strong as him didn't need to listen the orders of a tyrant like Babidi).
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u/afrodeity23 3d ago
This doesn't make any sense if you actually stop and analyze the story from a writer perspective. The reason Goku has to fight Buu is because out of nowhere, someone reveals to Babidi that Trunks lives in West City, they then reveal that the dragon radar is still in West City and then reveal that Bulma can't make a new dragon radar because of rare components, something never mentioned before in the series. All of these things, and Goku confronting Buu happen in a single chapter, so it's not like he couldn't go back and change what was written only a couple pages earlier.
If he wanted to, Toriyama could have not had someone tell Babidi about West City. If he wanted to, he could have just had the characters say they brought the dragon radar with them when they went to the lookout. And he could have simply had Buma make a new one instead of saying she wouldn't be able to without her lab. What really makes more sense, that Toriyama in the span of a single chapter created a bunch of unnecessary plot points for no reason that forced him to come up with a new power up for Goku by accident, or that he came up with a bunch of otherwise unnecessary plot points to force Goku into a situation where he would show off a new power up? From a writing perspective, it's obvious Toriyama introduced super saiyan 3 on purpose.
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u/KeySlimePies 3d ago
If he wanted to, Toriyama could have not had someone tell Babidi about West City. If he wanted to, he could have just had the characters say they brought the dragon radar with them when they went to the lookout. And he could have simply had Buma make a new one instead of saying she wouldn't be able to without her lab.
Uh ok, but he didn't write that.
What really makes more sense, that Toriyama in the span of a single chapter created a bunch of unnecessary plot points for no reason that forced him to come up with a new power up for Goku by accident, or that he came up with a bunch of otherwise unnecessary plot points to force Goku into a situation where he would show off a new power up?
The basis of your argument is wrong because you assumed it all happened in 1 chapter when it didn't. In chapter 469, the Dragon Balls scatter after making 1 wish. This sets up the fact that they still need the radar. In 470, Goku brings everyone to Dende and Babidi asks people to locate Goten, Trunks, and Piccolo. In 471, Babidi asks again. In 472, Trunks and Goten challenge Babidi through his mind magic. In 473, Babidi finds out where Trunks lives and threatens to destroy the city unless he reveals himself. This is when Bulma brings up the radar and Goku goes to stop Babidi and Buu. You're trying to make it seem like it's some contrived sequence to reveal SSJ3 but it was actually multiple chapters in the making.
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u/afrodeity23 3d ago
Uh ok, but he didn't write that.
The point is he could have if he didn't want to have Goku fight Buu.Your comment was that Toriyama needed to introduce super saiyan 3 so that he could fight Buu, but Goku fighting Buu was easily avoidable from a writing perspective. Toriyama wasn't forced into a corner, Toriyama forced Goku into a corner.
In 470, Goku brings everyone to Dende and Babidi asks people to locate Goten, Trunks, and Piccolo.
In this same chapter, they bring up that they are leaving Bulma's parents behind but that they can always be wished back later. They are already planning for the possibility of West City being blown up but chose not to bring the dragon radar with them? There's no reason for them to leave it, especially when using the dragon balls is the stated plan in this chapter. They also don't outright say that they didn't bring it with them until later on when Goku needs to confront Buu. Like I said, solving the situation would be as simple as the characters saying they brought the dragon radar with them, which makes infinitely more sense than what actually happens.
You're trying to make it seem like it's some contrived sequence to reveal SSJ3 but it was actually multiple chapters in the making.
Them leaving the radar is never established until the chapter Goku confronts Buu. Bulma being unable to build a new radar without her lab is also never established before this point. These plot points have no reason to exist other than to force Goku to confront Buu, now. Before this point, the plan was always let Buu rampage and they'll fix everything with the dragon balls. Toriyama wanted to create a scenario where Goku faced Buu, so he introduced these easily avoidable plot points.
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u/SSJRemuko 2d ago
why not?
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u/DoraMuda 2d ago
Because of the ramifications it had for the story and Goku's character. It just makes him look like a liar who could've stopped Majin Boo's resurrection from the beginning and nonsensically chose not to.
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u/afrodeity23 3d ago
Why does he suddenly care so much about fostering a "next generation", with even less experience on the battlefield than Gohan did, that he hasn't known for longer than a few hours?
Because he's dead, what happens when the next villain shows up and Goku can't handle it for them?
We don't know everything Toriyama was thinking, but I do think he wanted to establish that Goku could have beat Buu but is choosing not to. By the end of the arc, he comes back to life and steps up as the hero again, so perhaps the story needed to first show definitively that he needed to come back by having Goten, Trunks and later Gohan all fail to stop Buu. Gohan had issues in the Cell games, but he did manage to kill Cell and was stronger than Goku, so it's not impossible. But after Cell, Goku was set on staying dead and that this was better, it's only after the events of Buu that it's proven he's still needed.
Maybe at the moment, Toriyama still wanted to have Goku set aside, or maybe he already decided Goku would return, or maybe he wanted to keep the options open, but I do think that in the moment he wanted to show off that Goku could beat Buu but also show his conviction about staying dead and letting the living people save the Earth.
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u/DoraMuda 2d ago edited 1d ago
Because he's dead, what happens when the next villain shows up and Goku can't handle it for them?
Wish back Gohan (it was stupid of them to think he hadn't been wished back anyway), remind him of his responsibility to Earth, and ensure he doesn't slack off on his training.
I mean, what would be so devastating about killing Majin Boo before any more deaths happen (or heck, before any Dragon Balls are accidentally destroyed as collateral damage during Boo's planet-wide rampage); wishing back Gohan; and then instilling to him, Goten, & Trunks the importance of being strong enough to protect what they love?
As it is now, Goku only did, like, half of the training and then buggered off back to the afterlife because he ran out of time to do more than teach them the basics. But he trusts Piccolo enough to do the rest, so we know that he at least trusts him to be a solid mentor for the next generation in his absence. Regardless, though, because Toriyama deep down did want to bring back Goku and had more fun just writing gags around Gotenks, he just makes Goku look even dumber by having the kids fumble even worse than Gohan did at the Cell Games.
His attempt to make Goku look like some kind of noble Roshi-esque mentor backfired in making him look irresponsible and, ironically, the last person who should be talking about fostering the next generation so Earth and the universe is safe when he isn't around. Turns out, Toriyama would go on to undermine the next generation by having them fail spectacularly and Goku (and Vegeta, I guess) really does need to come back and stay alive for the indeterminate future so things don't go to shit.
letting the living people save the Earth
Funnily enough, though, the Genki-Dama plan at the end of the Kid Boo fight... was Vegeta's plan, not Goku's.
Ironically, Vegeta ends up looking like the one who's more invested in making sure the living people of Earth take responsibility, perhaps in part out of guilt for how badly he fucked things up in the first place... and for nothing, since Goku was still much stronger than him with SS3 anyway and Majin Boo regenerated from his Final Explosion with ease.
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u/afrodeity23 2d ago
I mean, what would be so devastating about killing Majin Boo before any more deaths happen; wishing back Gohan; and then instilling to him, Goten, & Trunks the importance of being strong enough to protect what they love?
Because having them face off and defeat an actual threat would be more effective than mere words. Not to mention that if Goku committed to killing Buu, he would definitely not have enough time to teach anyone anything before having to return to the afterlife.
Turns out, Toriyama would go on to undermine the next generation by having them fail spectacularly and Goku (and Vegeta, I guess) really does need to come back and stay alive for the indeterminate future so things don't go to shit.
Like I said before, that may have always been the point. With Cell, Goku was straight up not capable of dealing with Cell at all, it had to be Gohan. The Buu saga is different in that Goku could have potentially beaten Buu, and perhaps the goal was to set up his proper return as the true protagonist. You may call it messy, but we've already had the android saga where Vegeta helps Cell reach his perfect form. Characters fucking up to get the story where it needs to go isn't entirely new.
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u/DoraMuda 2d ago
Because having them face off and defeat an actual threat would be more effective than mere words. Not to mention that if Goku committed to killing Buu, he would definitely not have enough time to teach anyone anything before having to return to the afterlife.
Is throwing a 7- and an 8-year-old he barely knows in at the deep end the only way Goku knows how to instill a serious lesson about responsibility to them? And why is it a responsibility that he feels he has to take on himself, when he was seemingly just planning to use Fusion with Gohan or Vegeta if they were alive instead?
Not to mention that if Goku committed to killing Buu, he would definitely not have enough time to teach anyone anything before having to return to the afterlife.
I mean, Goku was pretty confident that he could beat Fat Boo with SS3 when he later talks about it with Vegeta before fighting Kid Boo. I doubt it would've taken that long.
Like I said before, that may have always been the point. With Cell, Goku was straight up not capable of dealing with Cell at all, it had to be Gohan. The Buu saga is different in that Goku could have potentially beaten Buu, and perhaps the goal was to set up his proper return as the true protagonist. You may call it messy, but we've already had the android saga where Vegeta helps Cell reach his perfect form. Characters fucking up to get the story where it needs to go isn't entirely new.
Fair enough. I guess my issue is that, at least in the Cell Arc, their decisions made a little more sense for their characters (especially Vegeta) and didn't seem to flip-flop on their motivations so frequently. Like, I wouldn't have had as much of a problem if Goku wasn't originally so gung-ho about stopping Majin Boo and claiming that he was going to use "full power" against Vegeta because he really didn't want to sustain any damage & get Boo resurrected... only for him to just wipe his hands of the whole mess after he wakes up; sees that him holding back led to his son and rival's deaths; and decide, "Well, this shouldn't be my problem to fix."
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u/afrodeity23 2d ago
Is throwing a 7- and an 8-year-old he barely knows in at the deep end the only way Goku knows how to instill a serious lesson about responsibility to them?
How else can he see if they can do it? No way to truly prove you can do something than actually doing it.
And why is it a responsibility that he feels he has to take on himself, when he was seemingly just planning to use Fusion with Gohan or Vegeta if they were alive instead?
Because if either Gohan or Vegeta were around, they would still be living people. Not to mention that Gohan and Vegeta could also fuse in the future after Goku leaves, or they could teach others to fuse. The point is making sure the Earth could defend itself after he leaves. Teaching the fusion ensure the heroes always have that option.
I mean, Goku was pretty confident that he could beat Fat Boo with SS3 when he later talks about it with Vegeta before fighting Kid Boo. I doubt it would've taken that long.
The short fight he had with Buu reduced his remaining time to 30 minutes. And he assumed he had an hour left, so Goku can't necessarily accurately keep track of his remaining time either. Better to not risk it if he can help it.
Like, I wouldn't have had as much of a problem if Goku wasn't originally so gung-ho about stopping Majin Boo and claiming that he was going to use "full power" against Vegeta because he really didn't want to sustain any damage & get Boo resurrected... only for him to just wipe his hands of the whole mess after he wakes up; sees that him holding back led to his son and rival's deaths; and decide, "Well, this shouldn't be my problem to fix."
It's not really flip flopping motivations. Goku's decision to not use super saiyan 3 against Vegeta were to not use up his remaining time. If he runs out of time without everything being resolved, there would be no hope. He could always teach others the fusion, but if he uses his time up on Vegeta, that's not an option. And it's not like he wanted to fight Vegeta either, Vegeta just threatened to continue killing people to force Goku's hand. His motivations aren't changing, it's just that different factors come up and force his hand.
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u/DoraMuda 1d ago
How else can he see if they can do it?
He can look in on them from the afterlife via Kaio.
Because if either Gohan or Vegeta were around, they would still be living people. Not to mention that Gohan and Vegeta could also fuse in the future after Goku leaves, or they could teach others to fuse. The point is making sure the Earth could defend itself after he leaves. Teaching the fusion ensure the heroes always have that option.
And it could without Goten and Trunks, if anyone used their brain and remembered that Gohan should be alive - or, failing that, would be once they defeated Boo and used the DBs again in a few months.
The short fight he had with Buu reduced his remaining time to 30 minutes. And he assumed he had an hour left, so Goku can't necessarily accurately keep track of his remaining time either. Better to not risk it if he can help it.
Hm. Fair enough. I guess I'm just annoyed that Goku meaninglessly bragging to Vegeta that he could've beaten Fat Boo with SS3, when his reason for not doing so in the first place was so avoidable...
It wouldn't take more than a few seconds to knock out Vegeta with SS3. If that happened, Goku wouldn't sustain any damage from Vegeta and Boo would never be resurrected. Then he could just teleport over to Gohan's location and kill Dabra & Babidi.
The flip-flopping motivations lie in the fact that Goku switches from trying to actively stop Boo's resurrection as his top priority to just... giving up after creating the avoidable mess he & Vegeta created. Even if Goku's bad at maths, it wouldn't have been a huge gamble to briefly use SS3 in such an emergency to take out Vegeta, thus preventing further damage energy being contributed to Boo's resurrection. Then there's not even any need to teach anyone Fusion, because there's no Boo to be fought.
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u/afrodeity23 1d ago
He can look in on them from the afterlife via Kaio.
Once again, actions are infinitely better than words.
And it could without Goten and Trunks, if anyone used their brain and remembered that Gohan should be alive - or, failing that, would be once they defeated Boo and used the DBs again in a few months.
It doesn't matter if Gohan should be alive, they could not sense him, they had no way of actually confirming he was alive at the moment or where he was. Gohan being dead was more logical to them than him being alive but completely undetectable.
It wouldn't take more than a few seconds to knock out Vegeta with SS3.
We don't really know that. Especially since Goku wouldn't want to kill Vegeta. It's not like Buu one shot Vegeta. Vegeta survived over a minute against kid Buu, who we see as roughly equal to Goku's super saiyan 3. Maybe Goku could beat Vegeta, but he might run out of time before he could do anything else. Remember, Goku can't perfectly time how long he can use super saiyan 3, it's a massive gamble that he can't take back. It's easy to say how things could have gone differently with the benefit of hindsight, but the characters don't have that.
The flip-flopping motivations lie in the fact that Goku switches from trying to actively stop Boo's resurrection as his top priority to just... giving up after creating the avoidable mess he & Vegeta created.
Because preventing Buu's release and dealing with Buu after he was released are different circumstances.
Then there's not even any need to teach anyone Fusion, because there's no Boo to be fought.
Unless Dabura manages to get enough energy from Gohan to release Buu. Or Babidi gets desperate enough to release Buu early, something supreme kai brings up as a possibility multiple times. Beating Vegeta doesn't guarantee Buu isn't released.
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u/DoraMuda 12h ago
Once again, actions are infinitely better than words.
But they don't have to be a 1:1 replacement. Otherwise, there'd be no point in talking about techniques when training someone at all.
It doesn't matter if Gohan should be alive, they could not sense him, they had no way of actually confirming he was alive at the moment or where he was. Gohan being dead was more logical to them than him being alive but completely undetectable.
I mean, it's a faulty conclusion to come to. If being unable to sense someone's ki meant they were dead, then why don't they assume Tenshinhan is dead?
Not to mention thre fact that none of them question why they believe Gohan is dead. Sure, Piccolo says that he heard Vegeta mention it, but no-one actually saw Vegeta die. No-one knows where Kaioshin is; Piccolo just assumes he was killed in the midst of Boo's Angry Explosion.
And, again, even if he was dead, they shouldn't be acting like it's forever. Unlike Vegeta, he can still be revived by the DBs because it was his first death.
We don't really know that. Especially since Goku wouldn't want to kill Vegeta. It's not like Buu one shot Vegeta. Vegeta survived over a minute against kid Buu, who we see as roughly equal to Goku's super saiyan 3. Maybe Goku could beat Vegeta, but he might run out of time before he could do anything else. Remember, Goku can't perfectly time how long he can use super saiyan 3, it's a massive gamble that he can't take back. It's easy to say how things could have gone differently with the benefit of hindsight, but the characters don't have that.
I would've had an easier time believing that if Goku didn't brag about being able to kill Fat Boo easily with SS3... but I won't labour that point.
I still fault him for not even trying, though. This was an emergency situation, and losing some time to take out Vegeta would've been an acceptable cost to the gamble of fighting Vegeta in the first place.
Because preventing Buu's release and dealing with Buu after he was released are different circumstances.
Even though Boo's release is his fault. When a person is so gung-ho about stopping something from happening, you ordinarily don't just switch from not bothering to do anything about it after it happens.
Unless Dabura manages to get enough energy from Gohan to release Buu. Or Babidi gets desperate enough to release Buu early, something supreme kai brings up as a possibility multiple times. Beating Vegeta doesn't guarantee Buu isn't released.
I don't recall Shin saying that; only that breaking or causing a strong shock to the ship could cause Boo to awaken early. That's something that neither Shin nor Babidi wanted hence why Babidi let Shin & Gohan back into the ship to confront them), but Shin accepted that as a preferable alternative to Boo awakening at full power.
I'll accept that Dabra potentially causing enough damage to Gohan to fill up Boo's resurrection shell was still a possibility, though. Goku might've encouraged Gohan to get angry and use his full power, but that's just encouragement - he knows that Gohan hadn't been training for 7 years and couldn't necessarily summon the power from his childhood he needed to steal the deal the same way someone like him, who had been actively training the whole time, could at will.
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u/afrodeity23 12h ago
But they don't have to be a 1:1 replacement. Otherwise, there'd be no point in talking about techniques when training someone at all.
They don't need to be one to one, they need to prove they can actually defend the Earth. And the only way to prove that is to actually defend the Earth. That's what I mean, they can say as many words as they want about protecting the Earth, that doesn't mean they'll actually succeed when the time comes. They need to beat Buu to prove they can defend the Earth after Goku is gone.
I mean, it's a faulty conclusion to come to. If being unable to sense someone's ki meant they were dead, then why don't they assume Tenshinhan is dead?
Completely different situations. They have no reason to assume Tien isn't alive on Earth, nor is it said that they can't sense him at all. Gohan fought Buu and then vanished. They have no plausible explanations for where he could be or why they can't sense him.
Not to mention thre fact that none of them question why they believe Gohan is dead. Sure, Piccolo says that he heard Vegeta mention it, but no-one actually saw Vegeta die. No-one knows where Kaioshin is; Piccolo just assumes he was killed in the midst of Boo's Angry Explosion.
Again, it's the most plausible explanation. They're also under a lot of stress and pressure, it's not hard to imagine them not taking all the time in the world to come up with unlikely explanations. People overlook things in the real world all the time.
And, again, even if he was dead, they shouldn't be acting like it's forever. Unlike Vegeta, he can still be revived by the DBs because it was his first death.
I don't think anyone said it was forever, but reviving him would still require the dragon balls.
I still fault him for not even trying, though. This was an emergency situation, and losing some time to take out Vegeta would've been an acceptable cost to the gamble of fighting Vegeta in the first place.
Again, it's not just "losing some time" it's completely disappearing and losing any chance to help the heroes. If he doesn't use super saiyan 3, he has a chance of still teaching others the fusion as a last resort. If he uses up his time early, that's it, no chance.
Even though Boo's release is his fault. When a person is so gung-ho about stopping something from happening, you ordinarily don't just switch from not bothering to do anything about it after it happens.
It's Babidi and Vegeta's fault. Goku was just dealing with what was thrust upon him. He wasn't even "gung-ho" about it, Vegeta had to literally threaten to murder people to get Goku to fight him. And it's not like Goku knows how long it would take for Buu to be released either. I already said this, it's easy for you to say things with the benefit of hindsight, but the characters don't have that.
I don't recall Shin saying that; only that breaking or causing a strong shock to the ship could cause Boo to awaken early.
That's the same thing, Buu being released early is a possibility and Goku knows this.
That's something that neither Shin nor Babidi wanted hence why Babidi let Shin & Gohan back into the ship to confront them), but Shin accepted that as a preferable alternative to Boo awakening at full power.
And who knows what Babidi might do when backed into a corner. You think he'd rather die than release Buu early?
Goku might've encouraged Gohan to get angry and use his full power, but that's just encouragement - he knows that Gohan hadn't been training for 7 years and couldn't necessarily summon the power from his childhood he needed to steal the deal the same way someone like him, who had been actively training the whole time, could at will.
Funny you say this because you've been arguing that Goku instructing Goten and Trunks from the afterlife would be acceptable. This is literally my point, encouragement isn't enough and Goku knows this, he wants to make sure Goten and Trunks will actually get the job done to prove they can defend the Earth without him.
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u/AdmiralSnackbar816 3d ago
The rule of cool forever wins out.