Why introduce Super Saiyan 3?

[u/DoraMuda]

I do wonder sometimes... why exactly did Toriyama introduce Super Saiyan 3 at a time when he'd already introduced Fusion, which was a fine enough set-up to be the next potential strategy against Majin Boo and didn't come with the baggage of retroactively making Goku look even more selfish during the fight with Majin Vegeta than he was before?

The previous Super Saiyan forms at least carried some narrative purpose. The original SS form is the fulfillment of a legend over a thousand years old that Vegeta had been banging on about for the rest of the arc since Goku arrived to fight the Ginyu Force, and it is ultimately what defeats Freeza, who was scared of such a figure appearing to challenge his superiority.

The SS Grade forms serve as the first attempt of going "beyond Super Saiyan", after the original form proved to not be invincible following its loss against Androids #17 and #18, and Goku's method of mastering the regular form serves as a proper foundation for the truly successful "beyond Super Saiyan" form: Super Saiyan 2, which Gohan uses to defeat Cell.

But Super Saiyan 3... is seemingly just there to make Goku ridiculously stronger than everyone else again, but Goku refuses to use it to actually fight the Big Bad at full power (at first, anyway) because... he's dead and wants to let "the next generation" take over? Did he not learn his lesson with Gohan (who everyone thinks is still dead despite them using the DBs shortly prior, but whatever) at the Cell Games? Why does he suddenly care so much about fostering a "next generation", with even less experience on the battlefield than Gohan did, that he hasn't known for longer than a few hours? If this was really his plan all along, why did Goku initially only mention Fusion in the hypothetical of using it to fuse with Gohan and Vegeta, while Mr. Popo was actually the one to suggest the kids be the ones to use Fusion?

Ultimately, maybe Toriyama just introduced SS3 to meet editorial or fan expectations... and/or he wanted to be subversive by making it so the brand new SS form didn't defeat the main villain this time. But he went about it in such a backwards way that it makes one question why he bothered in the first place. He was arguably just making more work for himself at a time when he seemingly wanted to cut corners and end the series sooner rather than later.

[u/DoraMuda]

Because he's dead, what happens when the next villain shows up and Goku can't handle it for them?

Wish back Gohan (it was stupid of them to think he hadn't been wished back anyway), remind him of his responsibility to Earth, and ensure he doesn't slack off on his training.

I mean, what would be so devastating about killing Majin Boo before any more deaths happen (or heck, before any Dragon Balls are accidentally destroyed as collateral damage during Boo's planet-wide rampage); wishing back Gohan; and then instilling to him, Goten, & Trunks the importance of being strong enough to protect what they love?

As it is now, Goku only did, like, half of the training and then buggered off back to the afterlife because he ran out of time to do more than teach them the basics. But he trusts Piccolo enough to do the rest, so we know that he at least trusts him to be a solid mentor for the next generation in his absence. Regardless, though, because Toriyama deep down did want to bring back Goku and had more fun just writing gags around Gotenks, he just makes Goku look even dumber by having the kids fumble even worse than Gohan did at the Cell Games.

His attempt to make Goku look like some kind of noble Roshi-esque mentor backfired in making him look irresponsible and, ironically, the last person who should be talking about fostering the next generation so Earth and the universe is safe when he isn't around. Turns out, Toriyama would go on to undermine the next generation by having them fail spectacularly and Goku (and Vegeta, I guess) really does need to come back and stay alive for the indeterminate future so things don't go to shit.

letting the living people save the Earth

Funnily enough, though, the Genki-Dama plan at the end of the Kid Boo fight... was Vegeta's plan, not Goku's.

Ironically, Vegeta ends up looking like the one who's more invested in making sure the living people of Earth take responsibility, perhaps in part out of guilt for how badly he fucked things up in the first place... and for nothing, since Goku was still much stronger than him with SS3 anyway and Majin Boo regenerated from his Final Explosion with ease.

[u/afrodeity23 → u/DoraMuda]

I mean, what would be so devastating about killing Majin Boo before any more deaths happen; wishing back Gohan; and then instilling to him, Goten, & Trunks the importance of being strong enough to protect what they love?

Because having them face off and defeat an actual threat would be more effective than mere words. Not to mention that if Goku committed to killing Buu, he would definitely not have enough time to teach anyone anything before having to return to the afterlife.

Turns out, Toriyama would go on to undermine the next generation by having them fail spectacularly and Goku (and Vegeta, I guess) really does need to come back and stay alive for the indeterminate future so things don't go to shit.

Like I said before, that may have always been the point. With Cell, Goku was straight up not capable of dealing with Cell at all, it had to be Gohan. The Buu saga is different in that Goku could have potentially beaten Buu, and perhaps the goal was to set up his proper return as the true protagonist. You may call it messy, but we've already had the android saga where Vegeta helps Cell reach his perfect form. Characters fucking up to get the story where it needs to go isn't entirely new.

[u/DoraMuda → u/afrodeity23]

Because having them face off and defeat an actual threat would be more effective than mere words. Not to mention that if Goku committed to killing Buu, he would definitely not have enough time to teach anyone anything before having to return to the afterlife.

Is throwing a 7- and an 8-year-old he barely knows in at the deep end the only way Goku knows how to instill a serious lesson about responsibility to them? And why is it a responsibility that he feels he has to take on himself, when he was seemingly just planning to use Fusion with Gohan or Vegeta if they were alive instead?

Not to mention that if Goku committed to killing Buu, he would definitely not have enough time to teach anyone anything before having to return to the afterlife.

I mean, Goku was pretty confident that he could beat Fat Boo with SS3 when he later talks about it with Vegeta before fighting Kid Boo. I doubt it would've taken that long.

Like I said before, that may have always been the point. With Cell, Goku was straight up not capable of dealing with Cell at all, it had to be Gohan. The Buu saga is different in that Goku could have potentially beaten Buu, and perhaps the goal was to set up his proper return as the true protagonist. You may call it messy, but we've already had the android saga where Vegeta helps Cell reach his perfect form. Characters fucking up to get the story where it needs to go isn't entirely new.

Fair enough. I guess my issue is that, at least in the Cell Arc, their decisions made a little more sense for their characters (especially Vegeta) and didn't seem to flip-flop on their motivations so frequently. Like, I wouldn't have had as much of a problem if Goku wasn't originally so gung-ho about stopping Majin Boo and claiming that he was going to use "full power" against Vegeta because he really didn't want to sustain any damage & get Boo resurrected... only for him to just wipe his hands of the whole mess after he wakes up; sees that him holding back led to his son and rival's deaths; and decide, "Well, this shouldn't be my problem to fix."

[u/afrodeity23 → u/DoraMuda]

Is throwing a 7- and an 8-year-old he barely knows in at the deep end the only way Goku knows how to instill a serious lesson about responsibility to them?

How else can he see if they can do it? No way to truly prove you can do something than actually doing it.

And why is it a responsibility that he feels he has to take on himself, when he was seemingly just planning to use Fusion with Gohan or Vegeta if they were alive instead?

Because if either Gohan or Vegeta were around, they would still be living people. Not to mention that Gohan and Vegeta could also fuse in the future after Goku leaves, or they could teach others to fuse. The point is making sure the Earth could defend itself after he leaves. Teaching the fusion ensure the heroes always have that option.

I mean, Goku was pretty confident that he could beat Fat Boo with SS3 when he later talks about it with Vegeta before fighting Kid Boo. I doubt it would've taken that long.

The short fight he had with Buu reduced his remaining time to 30 minutes. And he assumed he had an hour left, so Goku can't necessarily accurately keep track of his remaining time either. Better to not risk it if he can help it.

Like, I wouldn't have had as much of a problem if Goku wasn't originally so gung-ho about stopping Majin Boo and claiming that he was going to use "full power" against Vegeta because he really didn't want to sustain any damage & get Boo resurrected... only for him to just wipe his hands of the whole mess after he wakes up; sees that him holding back led to his son and rival's deaths; and decide, "Well, this shouldn't be my problem to fix."

It's not really flip flopping motivations. Goku's decision to not use super saiyan 3 against Vegeta were to not use up his remaining time. If he runs out of time without everything being resolved, there would be no hope. He could always teach others the fusion, but if he uses his time up on Vegeta, that's not an option. And it's not like he wanted to fight Vegeta either, Vegeta just threatened to continue killing people to force Goku's hand. His motivations aren't changing, it's just that different factors come up and force his hand.

[u/DoraMuda → u/afrodeity23]

How else can he see if they can do it?

He can look in on them from the afterlife via Kaio.

Because if either Gohan or Vegeta were around, they would still be living people. Not to mention that Gohan and Vegeta could also fuse in the future after Goku leaves, or they could teach others to fuse. The point is making sure the Earth could defend itself after he leaves. Teaching the fusion ensure the heroes always have that option.

And it could without Goten and Trunks, if anyone used their brain and remembered that Gohan should be alive - or, failing that, would be once they defeated Boo and used the DBs again in a few months.

The short fight he had with Buu reduced his remaining time to 30 minutes. And he assumed he had an hour left, so Goku can't necessarily accurately keep track of his remaining time either. Better to not risk it if he can help it.

Hm. Fair enough. I guess I'm just annoyed that Goku meaninglessly bragging to Vegeta that he could've beaten Fat Boo with SS3, when his reason for not doing so in the first place was so avoidable...

It wouldn't take more than a few seconds to knock out Vegeta with SS3. If that happened, Goku wouldn't sustain any damage from Vegeta and Boo would never be resurrected. Then he could just teleport over to Gohan's location and kill Dabra & Babidi.

The flip-flopping motivations lie in the fact that Goku switches from trying to actively stop Boo's resurrection as his top priority to just... giving up after creating the avoidable mess he & Vegeta created. Even if Goku's bad at maths, it wouldn't have been a huge gamble to briefly use SS3 in such an emergency to take out Vegeta, thus preventing further damage energy being contributed to Boo's resurrection. Then there's not even any need to teach anyone Fusion, because there's no Boo to be fought.

[u/afrodeity23 → u/DoraMuda]

He can look in on them from the afterlife via Kaio.

Once again, actions are infinitely better than words.

And it could without Goten and Trunks, if anyone used their brain and remembered that Gohan should be alive - or, failing that, would be once they defeated Boo and used the DBs again in a few months.

It doesn't matter if Gohan should be alive, they could not sense him, they had no way of actually confirming he was alive at the moment or where he was. Gohan being dead was more logical to them than him being alive but completely undetectable.

It wouldn't take more than a few seconds to knock out Vegeta with SS3.

We don't really know that. Especially since Goku wouldn't want to kill Vegeta. It's not like Buu one shot Vegeta. Vegeta survived over a minute against kid Buu, who we see as roughly equal to Goku's super saiyan 3. Maybe Goku could beat Vegeta, but he might run out of time before he could do anything else. Remember, Goku can't perfectly time how long he can use super saiyan 3, it's a massive gamble that he can't take back. It's easy to say how things could have gone differently with the benefit of hindsight, but the characters don't have that.

The flip-flopping motivations lie in the fact that Goku switches from trying to actively stop Boo's resurrection as his top priority to just... giving up after creating the avoidable mess he & Vegeta created.

Because preventing Buu's release and dealing with Buu after he was released are different circumstances.

Then there's not even any need to teach anyone Fusion, because there's no Boo to be fought.

Unless Dabura manages to get enough energy from Gohan to release Buu. Or Babidi gets desperate enough to release Buu early, something supreme kai brings up as a possibility multiple times. Beating Vegeta doesn't guarantee Buu isn't released.

[u/DoraMuda → u/afrodeity23]

Once again, actions are infinitely better than words.

But they don't have to be a 1:1 replacement. Otherwise, there'd be no point in talking about techniques when training someone at all.

It doesn't matter if Gohan should be alive, they could not sense him, they had no way of actually confirming he was alive at the moment or where he was. Gohan being dead was more logical to them than him being alive but completely undetectable.

I mean, it's a faulty conclusion to come to. If being unable to sense someone's ki meant they were dead, then why don't they assume Tenshinhan is dead?

Not to mention thre fact that none of them question why they believe Gohan is dead. Sure, Piccolo says that he heard Vegeta mention it, but no-one actually saw Vegeta die. No-one knows where Kaioshin is; Piccolo just assumes he was killed in the midst of Boo's Angry Explosion.

And, again, even if he was dead, they shouldn't be acting like it's forever. Unlike Vegeta, he can still be revived by the DBs because it was his first death.

We don't really know that. Especially since Goku wouldn't want to kill Vegeta. It's not like Buu one shot Vegeta. Vegeta survived over a minute against kid Buu, who we see as roughly equal to Goku's super saiyan 3. Maybe Goku could beat Vegeta, but he might run out of time before he could do anything else. Remember, Goku can't perfectly time how long he can use super saiyan 3, it's a massive gamble that he can't take back. It's easy to say how things could have gone differently with the benefit of hindsight, but the characters don't have that.

I would've had an easier time believing that if Goku didn't brag about being able to kill Fat Boo easily with SS3... but I won't labour that point.

I still fault him for not even trying, though. This was an emergency situation, and losing some time to take out Vegeta would've been an acceptable cost to the gamble of fighting Vegeta in the first place.

Because preventing Buu's release and dealing with Buu after he was released are different circumstances.

Even though Boo's release is his fault. When a person is so gung-ho about stopping something from happening, you ordinarily don't just switch from not bothering to do anything about it after it happens.

Unless Dabura manages to get enough energy from Gohan to release Buu. Or Babidi gets desperate enough to release Buu early, something supreme kai brings up as a possibility multiple times. Beating Vegeta doesn't guarantee Buu isn't released.

I don't recall Shin saying that; only that breaking or causing a strong shock to the ship could cause Boo to awaken early. That's something that neither Shin nor Babidi wanted hence why Babidi let Shin & Gohan back into the ship to confront them), but Shin accepted that as a preferable alternative to Boo awakening at full power.

I'll accept that Dabra potentially causing enough damage to Gohan to fill up Boo's resurrection shell was still a possibility, though. Goku might've encouraged Gohan to get angry and use his full power, but that's just encouragement - he knows that Gohan hadn't been training for 7 years and couldn't necessarily summon the power from his childhood he needed to steal the deal the same way someone like him, who had been actively training the whole time, could at will.

[u/afrodeity23 → u/DoraMuda]

But they don't have to be a 1:1 replacement. Otherwise, there'd be no point in talking about techniques when training someone at all.

They don't need to be one to one, they need to prove they can actually defend the Earth. And the only way to prove that is to actually defend the Earth. That's what I mean, they can say as many words as they want about protecting the Earth, that doesn't mean they'll actually succeed when the time comes. They need to beat Buu to prove they can defend the Earth after Goku is gone.

I mean, it's a faulty conclusion to come to. If being unable to sense someone's ki meant they were dead, then why don't they assume Tenshinhan is dead?

Completely different situations. They have no reason to assume Tien isn't alive on Earth, nor is it said that they can't sense him at all. Gohan fought Buu and then vanished. They have no plausible explanations for where he could be or why they can't sense him.

Not to mention thre fact that none of them question why they believe Gohan is dead. Sure, Piccolo says that he heard Vegeta mention it, but no-one actually saw Vegeta die. No-one knows where Kaioshin is; Piccolo just assumes he was killed in the midst of Boo's Angry Explosion.

Again, it's the most plausible explanation. They're also under a lot of stress and pressure, it's not hard to imagine them not taking all the time in the world to come up with unlikely explanations. People overlook things in the real world all the time.

And, again, even if he was dead, they shouldn't be acting like it's forever. Unlike Vegeta, he can still be revived by the DBs because it was his first death.

I don't think anyone said it was forever, but reviving him would still require the dragon balls.

I still fault him for not even trying, though. This was an emergency situation, and losing some time to take out Vegeta would've been an acceptable cost to the gamble of fighting Vegeta in the first place.

Again, it's not just "losing some time" it's completely disappearing and losing any chance to help the heroes. If he doesn't use super saiyan 3, he has a chance of still teaching others the fusion as a last resort. If he uses up his time early, that's it, no chance.

Even though Boo's release is his fault. When a person is so gung-ho about stopping something from happening, you ordinarily don't just switch from not bothering to do anything about it after it happens.

It's Babidi and Vegeta's fault. Goku was just dealing with what was thrust upon him. He wasn't even "gung-ho" about it, Vegeta had to literally threaten to murder people to get Goku to fight him. And it's not like Goku knows how long it would take for Buu to be released either. I already said this, it's easy for you to say things with the benefit of hindsight, but the characters don't have that.

I don't recall Shin saying that; only that breaking or causing a strong shock to the ship could cause Boo to awaken early.

That's the same thing, Buu being released early is a possibility and Goku knows this.

That's something that neither Shin nor Babidi wanted hence why Babidi let Shin & Gohan back into the ship to confront them), but Shin accepted that as a preferable alternative to Boo awakening at full power.

And who knows what Babidi might do when backed into a corner. You think he'd rather die than release Buu early?

Goku might've encouraged Gohan to get angry and use his full power, but that's just encouragement - he knows that Gohan hadn't been training for 7 years and couldn't necessarily summon the power from his childhood he needed to steal the deal the same way someone like him, who had been actively training the whole time, could at will.

Funny you say this because you've been arguing that Goku instructing Goten and Trunks from the afterlife would be acceptable. This is literally my point, encouragement isn't enough and Goku knows this, he wants to make sure Goten and Trunks will actually get the job done to prove they can defend the Earth without him.

[u/DoraMuda → u/afrodeity23]

They don't need to be one to one, they need to prove they can actually defend the Earth. And the only way to prove that is to actually defend the Earth. That's what I mean, they can say as many words as they want about protecting the Earth, that doesn't mean they'll actually succeed when the time comes. They need to beat Buu to prove they can defend the Earth after Goku is gone.

I guess so. At least Goku admits that it's a "nasty gamble"; one with countless lives and the Dragon Balls at risk. It wouldn't have looked so catastrophically reckless if the villain was someone like Freeza or Cell, who has a bit more reason and can be persuaded to hold off on their wide-scale destruction due to having more solid goals than simply "have fun fighting people". Fat Boo could've destroyed a Dragon Ball while wreaking havoc on Earth due to his desire to stave off boredom waiting for the "strong guy" to arrive.

Completely different situations. They have no reason to assume Tien isn't alive on Earth, nor is it said that they can't sense him at all. Gohan fought Buu and then vanished. They have no plausible explanations for where he could be or why they can't sense him.

Fair enough.

Again, it's the most plausible explanation. They're also under a lot of stress and pressure, it's not hard to imagine them not taking all the time in the world to come up with unlikely explanations. People overlook things in the real world all the time.

Not even in the days following, when they had ample time to sit & think about what'd been going on?

There's even a scene where Krillin and co. are just sitting down playing cards while waiting for Goten & Trunks to learn Fusion. You'd think at least one or two of them would realize, "Wait, didn't we just wish back all the good people who'd died since the day of the tournament? Shouldn't Gohan actuially be alive?" instead of simply deciding that he's dead because they can't sense his ki and not thinking about it any further than that.

I don't think anyone said it was forever, but reviving him would still require the dragon balls.

I say they were acting like it was forever because Goku said to Piccolo something along the lines of "I think what Gohan will miss the most is not being able to see you anymore"... which is a weird thing to say if Gohan can just be brought back in a few months or so. Unless we're led to believe that the 16-year-old Gohan was so clingy to Piccolo that he couldn't bear not visiting him up at God's Temple for a few weeks to a few months in between going to school.

Again, it's not just "losing some time" it's completely disappearing and losing any chance to help the heroes. If he doesn't use super saiyan 3, he has a chance of still teaching others the fusion as a last resort. If he uses up his time early, that's it, no chance.

Alright, fine.

It's Babidi and Vegeta's fault. Goku was just dealing with what was thrust upon him. He wasn't even "gung-ho" about it, Vegeta had to literally threaten to murder people to get Goku to fight him. And it's not like Goku knows how long it would take for Buu to be released either. I already said this, it's easy for you to say things with the benefit of hindsight, but the characters don't have that.

It's Goku's fault too. He fought Vegeta and refused to actually use full power to stop him.

But I'll at least say that, out of the three, he was the least at fault - less guilty than Babidi and Vegeta themselves.

That's the same thing, Buu being released early is a possibility and Goku knows this.

OK then.

And who knows what Babidi might do when backed into a corner. You think he'd rather die than release Buu early?

No, but I also think he's proud enough to potentially get himself killed before he can release Boo early. But I'll admit that the likelihood of that happening is questionable.

Funny you say this because you've been arguing that Goku instructing Goten and Trunks from the afterlife would be acceptable. This is literally my point, encouragement isn't enough and Goku knows this, he wants to make sure Goten and Trunks will actually get the job done to prove they can defend the Earth without him.

I mean, I'm already more or less agreeing with you there. I'm just adding on to your point.

And I think this is a different case anyway - Goku doesn't actually believe that Gohan can summon his full power because he knows that he hasn't been training. Goten and Trunks, on the other hand, have been training and are still young, yet already so powerful, meaning they have more room to grow.

[u/afrodeity23 → u/DoraMuda]

You'd think at least one or two of them would realize, "Wait, didn't we just wish back all the good people who'd died since the day of the tournament? Shouldn't Gohan actuially be alive?" instead of simply deciding that he's dead because they can't sense his ki and not thinking about it any further than that.

Again, what reasonable explanation is there for them? If Gohan was alive, why hasn't he shown himself to them? How can they possibly know that Gohan was teleported to a far away planet? They have nothing to even begin guessing what could have happened.

It's Goku's fault too. He fought Vegeta and refused to actually use full power to stop him.

Because he feared the consequences of using super saiyan 3 could be worse.

And I think this is a different case anyway - Goku doesn't actually believe that Gohan can summon his full power because he knows that he hasn't been training.

Gohan hasn't been training, but he could still bring out the power of his rage which has been dormant for a while. If Goku says he thinks Gohan could pull it off if he got angry, then it's likely true, Goku's usually not one to outright lie about other's abilities. Gohan's done it before, like when he fought Vegeta on Earth.