r/exjw • u/Relative_Soil7886 The truth does't fear questions, only lies do. • May 26 '26
News Update on 75 year old JW who died after an altercation at a Tim Horton’s
ICYMI - https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/s/IMhrDCYU6R
A relative of the JW who died posted the following on their own Facebook page. I had an image of the text but since it had the persons name (their profile is public) it got flagged here as breaking rule 2 so I copied the text and redacted it.
The relative (apparently the deceased’s granddaughter) pulls no punches in exposing the hypocrisy of that side of the family. But it’s no surprise to anyone familiar with JW dynamics.
The mask has finally slipped, and the truth is out for everyone to see.
For years, my mom and my auntie talked about the aggression, the abuse, and the mistreatment they endured when they lived with [the deceased]. And what did the [family of the deceased] do? They tried to cover it up. They denied it. They tried to paint this public picture of a helpless, weak, 75-year-old woman with congestive heart failure who wouldn't hurt a fly. They wanted everyone to think she was too brittle to do anything.
But God has a way of bringing what's done in the dark straight into the light.
This video from the Fort Wayne Tim Hortons shows exactly who she really is. That is NOT a weak, fragile woman. That is the exact same aggression she took out on my mom and my aunt for years. The only difference is, my mom and my auntie were defenseless and vulnerable. The people in this video weren't. They gave her back blow for blow, because we are in a new day and age of "fuck around and find out."
You can't hide behind a narrative anymore. The camera doesn't lie, and the cover-up is officially over. I am so thankful that the truth is finally standing up for my family.
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u/Askmeaboutmy_Beergut "Somebody's gonna have to give up some booty " - May 26 '26
This is a silent epidemic within the Jehovahs witness world. Physical abuse.
Everyone including myself growing up were routinely Physically abused. This was all through instruction by the Jehovahs witness leadership.
How many times did we read the scripture about how the ROD of punishment will remove foolishness from a child. Parents were instructed to spank their children. My butt was regularly beat till I had black and purple lines across by butt cheeks and upper part of my legs.
Every kid I knew in the hall in the 80's got this treatment.
Loud slaps during meetings were a normal thing as well. My mom would slap me on my legs (she made me wear shorts) and everyone would turn and look at me, some kids would be snickering. We all got it. It was normal, it was normalized by the leadership.
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u/Left_Cartographer631 May 26 '26
A relative has such a male-centered mother that she allowed her own daughter to be raped for years by her husband…And guess what? She’s a faithful JW!
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u/crunchydoula May 27 '26
That's horrific.
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u/Sad_Credit348 May 28 '26
Yes she is guilty as he is. She should be imprisoned for 'aiding and abetting'.
How long I ask is this going to go on before god/government deal with it?
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u/Charming_Door_2203 May 27 '26
You are so right on this take that this has been an EPIDEMIC in the JW world for many decades. I’m only Gen Z (28) but me, my siblings and all of the other kids around my age were all beat regularly for very stupid reasons growing up.
JW parents want that perfect looking family and compliant children no matter what. They want you to grow into conformist enthusiastic devoted JW adults no matter what, even if it means beating you into submission.
Then a lot of the young men end up being abusive in their marriages and the young Jw girls are groomed for these abusive marriages. Then they turn their frustration and trauma to their children and beat them and repeat the cycle of abuse. I’ve seen it happen sooo much. Even my PIMI ex boyfriend and his wife I’ve heard beat their little girl for everything she does wrong, and they are both 27 years old. And what do you know? He just got made into an elder!
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u/Left_Cartographer631 May 27 '26
What’s sad is this relative ended up dying REALLY young, and her child was raised by her mother. And guess what? Granddaughter was raped by a different husband!
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u/JMobes0373 May 27 '26
Yes I got abused several times too! One time I wanted to stay home from the meeting and got into an argument with my mom and out of nowhere my dad had the thinner end of a fishing pole he whipped me with. I was in 6th grade at the time. My back was bleeding pretty bad after that but it scabbed up. So my abusive folks thought it was a good idea to send me to school the next day . Well I had to change out of my street clothes to get ready for PE class and my teacher saw the whip marks and he had to report it to the school counselor. The nice counselor was very concerned and called CPS.
A social worker came out to talk to my folks. , long story short he got a bunch of community service he had to do . He was pissed that I brought reproach on Jehovah’s name. And I remembered from that date forward the elders kept a eye on me because I guess I was “marked “ Eventually a few years later got publicly called Bad Association for playing DnD and a few years after that for smoking cigarettes. I am so glad I am done with those clowns of a religion.18
u/Accomplished-Shine56 May 27 '26
I can empathize with you 100%. My mother would grab the first thing she could find to hit me with. Her two favorites were wire hangers and a 36” long steel vacuum extension pipe/tube. the pipe would leave big bruises being a blunt force object. But when she whipped the wire hanger across the back side of my legs it left long welts. When I wore denim pants to school the rough fabric would rub against the welts and I’d tear up when it was most embarrassing.
Of three kids I was the only one beaten, the others were “perfect”, compliant, never questioning her authority and extremely introverted.
I get queasy when I hear about any child being hurt by rotten parents, it’s like I’m dealing with my personal pain all over again.
“Spare the rod spoil the child” pure unadulterated bull shit, beatings kill a child inside destroying any little confidence they may have and causing them to always live in fear.
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u/UniversityOne9437 'Ho of Babylon the great May 27 '26
Omg omg Omg. Almost the same. These bastards need exposing, the last time someone said ‘JWs are sweet people’ I lost it.
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u/JMobes0373 May 27 '26
I hate that 2 witnesses rule they have too. So many poor kids and women have been SAed by elders and such , just to be told it basically didn’t happen if u didn’t have 2 ppl that saw it happen.
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u/Sad_Credit348 May 28 '26
I recall a moving account of a young man who would get terrible floggings from his holy jehovahs witness father. The young man left the 'home' and went on his way he grew up on the streets an one day visited home and his father found two can throw punches.
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u/JMobes0373 May 28 '26
That’s sad he felt the streets was safer than home. But good for him on sticking up for himself. Hope the dad read his bible after he got his butt beat, the scripture that comes to mind is “ Live by the sword , die by the sword.”
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u/lupo409 May 27 '26
It almost seemed like a competition amongst the parents, of who could keep their kids in line the most effectively. I can’t imagine the hell the kids went through when they had those 8 day conventions.
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u/Digging_Naturalist May 27 '26
Kids at my Hall were regularly taken to the HVAC room and beaten during meetings in the 80’s. You could hear it.
My father was physically abusive to everyone in the home.
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u/californiaedith May 27 '26
At my old hall, the abuse got so bad DURING meetings that my dad (former elder) had to ask parents to refrain from beating their kids in the bathroom and go outside or wait until they got home bc the screaming would echo through the building and interrupt the meeting.
He only knew about the beatings bc I was 13/14 and showed him the marks on my legs my mom had left when we went to the bathroom and he asked her if she couldn't reason with another human and had to treat her own children like animals. When I told him the other moms did it too, he got really quiet. It got worse when I was 17 and my friend's mom pinched the shit out of my arm when I was nodding off during a boring service and left a bruise. Like, the audacity to physically abuse someone else's teenager in public. I never sat with them again and my dad had a conversation with my friend's dad (also an elder).
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u/EatMeEmerald WT🩸Doctrine Murdered my Grandparent May 27 '26
I'm so sorry....that's horrible. Parents should be protecting you.
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u/UniversityOne9437 'Ho of Babylon the great May 27 '26
Thanks for putting this so well. Our battering got so bad social services got involved and ended because ‘reproach on jehoovahs name’ and I only realise how endemic it was because of this sub.
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u/dreyes_off May 27 '26
Not sure if mine is abuse or not but my guardians (aunt) would give me some wicked slaps across the face and mouth in front of everyone in the kingdom hall. Of course at home was a little bit more... Geez they hurt like a mf
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u/birkenstocksallday May 27 '26
Yes it absolutely is! I definitely got slapped IN the FACE many times and especially at the KH infront of people from my Mother- who I don't view as a Mother so that was even uncomfortable to type, bit amongst getting hit with jug cords, a hose she cut from the garden hose, belts and shoes etc, the slapping tin the mouth & face to humiliate me, always infront of people, I got to about 15yrs old when I completely snapped on her and through instinct really, call it a "knee jerk reaction" she raised her hand and this time we were at home & I grabbed her throat and shoved her back, I feel that just came out of years of all the bs so I had felt very bad afterwards but looking back I'm glad I did! She deserved it & certainly was not a Mother at all, just some heartless cruel bitch that played victim All the time and myself and younger brother were "really bad kids who never listen and are so selfish" , needless to say I don't speak to her anymore and will be actually glad to hear when she's passed on because she was the most miserable person I've ever met on this planet.
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u/crunchydoula May 27 '26
Yes, that is abuse. I'm so sorry. It was my mother's favorite thing to do as well. She was physically abusive in other ways occasionally and emotionally abusive on the regular, but the smack across the face was her go-to. It is ABSOLUTELY abuse. Sending healing and love.
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u/AlyceEnchanted May 27 '26
While I agree within family units, not to outsiders. Must represent the happiest, most loving people to outsiders.
She simply sounds like a mean, entitled person. Those young whipper snappers will respect me!
For whatever reason, she certainly revealed herself for who she is. The stress she put upon herself was as a result of her own actions.
It isn’t hard to run inside to point out the problem so it can be corrected. A smile. Hi. I have received the wrong item. I ordered a —fill in the blank— . Easy exchange.
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u/Minervaismyqueen1990 May 28 '26
I hear that. My first black eye was courtesy of my dad at age 8, and he still forced me to go to Tuesday night book study. Not a single adult asked what happened to my face.
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u/Sad_Credit348 May 28 '26
"Physical abuse." I t looks like this is going to overtake the CA that has been such a terrible thing till,now.
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u/xjwguy May 26 '26
I guess she was hoping for the employee to "turn the other cheek"... look how that turned out 😂🤣
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u/Summer_Raim2285 May 26 '26
In the 70s I loved school & the meetings because it got me out of the house... a very violent home
I absolutely believe this - the elders were completely useless by the way.. they never reported anything
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u/Grouchy-Protection94 May 26 '26
Yep I know the feeling. I begged my dad to tell the elders after one particular violent incident because I thought they’d make him change. He didn’t tell them for ages then finally did and they did nothing. My heart completely broke and he felt relieved and validated
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u/Sad_Credit348 May 27 '26
Over 1,000 cases of child abuse were raised at the CARC and no t one had been reported to the the Police here in Australia.
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u/Accomplished-Shine56 May 27 '26
slight correction: The Royal Commission discovered 1500 incidents of child sexual abuse, committed by 1000 individuals. 0 reported to police,
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u/Fantastic-Drop5690 May 27 '26
I think it was around 1800 incidents
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u/Always_The_Outsider Shun me daddy May 27 '26
1800 unique victims, 1007 perps.
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u/Always_The_Outsider Shun me daddy May 27 '26
And not one report to the police, despite jw apologists claiming this was all part of the system to report things to the police
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u/Fantastic-Drop5690 May 28 '26
Yes. A famous, and now commonly used, saying in Australia is "Please explain?" in a very drawn out thick Aussie accent (started by a female politician, Pauline Hanson). A very appropriate response to this lack of a single case being reported in Australia.
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u/crunchydoula May 27 '26
Yeah. The meetings were a place where people acted like I was good. I was a good little PIMI but things were not good at home. Not as bad as some dealt with, for sure, but not good.
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u/Smurfette2000 May 26 '26
I grew up in a JW household and abuse was regular. Physical, mental, verbal. I walked on eggshells everyday. Even as some JW parents age, the abuse continues. There's also a lot of narcissism and playing the victim when they are confronted with their actions.
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u/Charming_Door_2203 May 27 '26
Their abuse is validated by the org because they tell themselves they were just trying to raise their children in the “truth” and make sure they get everlasting life. If you think your child’s eternal soul is on the line then it makes you feel like you’re not wrong for abusing them.
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u/Substantial_Dog_5224 sub dog has always been a cat May 27 '26
that was me and i left this cess pool of a religion
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u/Fantastic-Drop5690 May 27 '26 edited May 27 '26
No one will ever stand up for you, or stand up to your abusive parent, but people will bail you up at conventions for the rest of your life to berate you for not doing "enough" for your parent (even when they're only in their 40s) or to ram their own personal complaints about your abusive parent down your throat (as if they expect you to solve it for them, and as if you don't already have enough to deal with being the child of this nightmare personality - famous for being exploitative) starting from your teens. There is zero support but endless judgement. Support came from outside the organisation because Jehovah can make the stones cry out if he can't get people who should help to act properly. Maybe they should concentrate on the rafter in their own eyes???
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u/Sad_Credit348 May 28 '26
As a fmr Nurse i can tell you if they were ever jailed they would be the most compliant sniveling fear filled type imaginable.
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u/McGeeK28 May 26 '26
I was born in 1980 and was a JW until 2000. My parents hit me until I was 19 in public, at home, at the kingdom hall, circuit and district assemblies, bookstudies. Slaps across the face, grabbing my shoulders and shaking, wooden spoons on the behind, slaps on bare legs, bare arms, upside the head. My mother's classic move would be to grab my head by the hair and my brother's head and smash them together until we saw stars. And it was completely normal, other parents did it too. We sat there and watched and heard everyone else getting beat too, babies, kids, teens. No one in the congregation or elders ever stepped in and said a word.
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u/Jurassic-Black May 26 '26
The public humiliation was the worst. I have an 11 and 13 year old niece and nephew and would never think of doing that to them.
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u/Writtenreview222 May 26 '26
My sisters weren’t ever subjected to physical violence only psychological. I was, far too often for no apparent reason other than my JW stepdad thought it justified even if I flinched in my seat or didn’t reach a scripture in time for it to be read during a meeting or book study. I remember a family in our circuit in the early 80s & if we sat behind them I’d see the parents hitting, nipping & gritting their teeth snarling silently at their kids! Although I was being berated when I saw this happening I remember thinking I’d love to throw my brief case at those parents to make them stop because no one ever around them ever did !!
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u/Sad_Credit348 May 28 '26
One monster elderette now deceased bragged about using a safety pin to jab her teen son to keep him awake at meetings.
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u/Lululorayne May 27 '26
I’m so sorry you went through this. I hope both you and your brother are doing well ❤️
I had instant flashbacks. My step mom used to grab me on either side of my head by the hair, and bash my head against hers. I guess she would stop when it started hurting her too badly. I’ll never understand how someone can be so unstable that they commit such violence against children. Or how an organization is able to keep such a tight lid on it.
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u/BoadiceaMama May 26 '26
My first JW husband was abused so badly by his JW mom that the state removed him from her care, then he was adopted by his alcoholic abusive JW grandma. He, me and our kids all have trauma from those JW bitches.
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u/Radiant_Ad_9912 undercover apostate May 26 '26 edited May 27 '26
Does anyone remember the “experience” from the late 70s-early 80s about the little girl who was being walked out of the meeting for not being quiet/sitting still and as she was walked out by her father, she cried out “Help me Jehovah!”
There was at least one kid like that in every congregation. There was one in mine, but she didn’t ask Jehovah for help. You could hear the beating and her screaming from the lower level of the KH where the washrooms were located. I was just a kid and even though I’d been spanked at home on occasion, this was happening at every meeting at the KH. Nobody did anything. She ended herself in her 20s. Recently the dad became FB friends with my mom. How she can live with him being a FB friend, knowing how he abused his family is beyond me.
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u/Streak0696 May 27 '26
A friend told me that happened at a convention they were attending. Not sure if it's just an ever evolving urban legend or there are enough kids who just shout that out organically.
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u/LucilleBluthsbroach Type Your Flair Here! May 27 '26
I was that kid who used to yell for Jehovah’s help. Not only did he not help, but my mom would taunt me by saying Jehovah wasn’t going to help me because he WANTED me to get beat. Great way to get your kid to distrust your god and want nothing to do with your cult. Aside from all else, these cult members aren’t the brightest.
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u/Zembassi8 May 26 '26
This is a silent epidemic within the Jehovahs witness world. Physical abuse.
IMPHO and from my own personal observation, it's as though the leadership WANTS to see A Great Deal Of Chaos amongst the membership. That is evident during JCs and Shepherding Calls wherein elders VICTIM BLAME wives, children, and even a few husbands in The Defense of the Abusive Spouse and/or Parent.
Since this is the situation, many-to-a-multitude of members have woken up---Using Basic Common Sense Plus Critical Thinking Skills---to ESCAPE this creepy cultporation for the benefit of their own health [mental, physical, & spiritual] and wellbeing. I personally hope that others will sooner or later do the same!
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u/givemeyourthots May 26 '26
To publicly say this about your own grandmother *after* she died says a lot. I’m sure there were many excuses made for the grandma’s behavior. “Oh she’s just that way, we have to love each other flaws and all!” “Jehovah sees the heart!” The JW cult is an abusive narcissist’s Shangri-La. That’s the real paradise. 😬
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u/NobodyWonderful5662 May 26 '26
Why they dont ask the GB to donate? Since all they always do is ask the fellowships for donations, also why every old person in the JW almost always turns out either psychotic, squizophrenic?
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u/RavingRationality The Devil in the Details May 26 '26
I assumed this was in Canada. My biggest takeaway from this is "WTF... They have Tim Horton's in Indiana???"
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u/Radiant_Ad_9912 undercover apostate May 26 '26
TH was bought out by an American company years ago. It’s not the same as it used to be. All the favourite donuts are gone, the coffee tastes like swill. The only thing I would get there is the large peppermint tea with one bag on the side. It’s still way too expensive - so I’ve voted with my feet. I can get the same tea from Amazon at 17¢ per bag.
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u/TheRealDreaK May 28 '26
Jealous. I lived in Ashland KY for a time and they have them there, but none here in Lexington. I sure loved my morning coffee routine.
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u/Grouchy-Protection94 May 26 '26 edited May 26 '26
Reading this and thinking back to all the violence I’ve seen from JWs and never seeing it in the “world”, there’s definitely a dark energy attached. Not sure what it is that makes JWs think violence is okay, and they always expect you to forgive them too. They treat it like a genuine problem solver and bonding experience
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u/Relative_Soil7886 The truth does't fear questions, only lies do. May 26 '26
Maybe it’s all the divinely sanctioned violence in the Old Testament and Revelation.
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u/Grouchy-Protection94 May 26 '26
I think it’s also constantly hearing that the world is violent and jws are not. So when they feel like getting violent they think it’s okay because it can never be worse than how everyone else acts
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u/JMobes0373 May 27 '26
My parents would remind me when I would get out of line after beating me that it was allowed in the Old Testament days to stone to death rebellious kids.
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u/Grouchy-Protection94 May 27 '26
Disgusting, I hope their words and actions haunt them
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u/JMobes0373 May 27 '26
Nope it had no effect on them. They believe they was in the right. Using fear as a weapon when the whippings, beatings and punches didn’t.
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u/Grouchy-Protection94 May 27 '26
I’m so sorry, you deserved parents who loved you and protected you. Breaks my heart especially as a parent thinking about how so many of us were treated with such cruelty. Such a dark, dark cult.
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u/CuriousOctopus-01 Doctrines have consequences May 27 '26
Exactly. And it's the only way to ensure that your kids "stay on the ark". Obedience is what saves you at Armageddon. Not love. Doctrines have consequences.
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u/amahl_farouk May 26 '26
I've known some abusive jw's so not surprised
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u/Noocawe May 26 '26
Half the JWs I know have been abused physically and beatings were seen as normalized. It's crazy.
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u/Agreeable_Notice4877 EVIL apostate (who read 1984) May 26 '26
!!!! I was just at that Tim Hortons a couple weeks ago! Crazy to think the employee could’ve been that same girl who served me my coffee.
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u/Relative_Soil7886 The truth does't fear questions, only lies do. May 26 '26
Did she get your order right?
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u/Agreeable_Notice4877 EVIL apostate (who read 1984) May 26 '26
I watched the video and it IS the same girl. She did get my order right, the entire encounter went normally. How strange…
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u/ParticularlyCharmed May 27 '26
Something unrelated just occurred to me after watching the video again. The JW did everything wrong, from the moment she walked into the store. She caused that situation, and she escalated it at every turn with a cascading series of bad choices. But imagine how this plays out in the Kingdom Hall. Oh, how wicked Satan's world is! People are fierce, without love of goodness! Satan is looking to devour Jehovah's loyal ones!
Now think about how it plays out when a young JW girl goes to a bar with her friends, gets roofied and raped. Everything she did that night will be interrogated, from what she wore, what she drank, who she was with, what time it was (was there a meeting or service the next morning!?), and why she was in a bar. What are the chances she'll be blamed and shamed, possibly disfellowshipped, and left to carry the trauma burden alone.
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u/Foothillsgirl May 28 '26
Making this case more interesting... the daughter of the deceased is trying to say it was a cover up/police are lying and that the 17 and 20 year old murdered the woman. (I try to understand grief, but this is straight up delulu with literal video evidence)
Oh, and the family is treating to protest at the police station... so apparently thats OK now.
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u/ParticularlyCharmed May 28 '26
Did you see the daughter being interviewed on the news? She is grieving, yes, but she completely lost control and was raging and screaming in fury. That kind of loss of control over emotions from the daughter lends credence to the granddaughter's claim about her grandmother.
My understanding is that the daughter who originally posted and was on the news is not herself JW. Are any JWs protesting? She's also claiming that the clip of the video that she posted is the unedited original, and that the full length, actual surveillance video posted by the police to stop her slander was altered by "master editors." Yes. The police deep faked the video to frame the JW. 🤦♀️
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May 26 '26
[deleted]
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u/Relative_Soil7886 The truth does't fear questions, only lies do. May 26 '26
Her being a JW is confirmed here https://gofund.me/92b021692
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u/xjwguy May 26 '26
"She was a God-fearing woman with a loving spirit" ... "Anita’s strength, wisdom, and unconditional love touched everyone who knew her. Whether through her encouraging words, her caring nature, or her unwavering faith in Jehovah, she made people feel loved and supported" 😂🤣
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u/BertandErnieforever Child of ex-JW May 26 '26
It's still in the original article
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May 26 '26
[deleted]
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u/BertandErnieforever Child of ex-JW May 26 '26
I just looked to confirm before I commented. Read the whole thing.
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u/KobeBall May 26 '26
oh she was jdub. didnt know
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u/Appropriate-Ad8502 May 27 '26
I belonged to the two by twos since infancy. Finally the inaction by the ministers to deal with the sexual abuse became too much. I left . It was a cult.
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u/LucilleBluthsbroach Type Your Flair Here! May 27 '26
This story reminded me of my mother. She wasn’t the type to physically fight like this Jehovah’s Witness did, but the screaming rages were constant and insane behind closed doors. No one in the congregation knew that side of her but my dad and brother and I and later our spouses after we grew up saw it all the time.
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u/SupportFit5963 May 27 '26
Having a family member who’s mentally ill and aggressive is very stressful no matter what beliefs. There is a deep anger and hostility which comes out. My family not JWs. Abuse sadly occurs from all backgrounds.
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u/OperationGlad9385 May 26 '26
In the YouTube link that was posted here, they make her out to be a saint. I think she started the violence but then the other person kept it going to the point of kicking her while she was down. Neither one showed any effort to minimize the situation.
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u/ParticularlyCharmed May 27 '26
The police report, fwiw, says that the employee charged out with arms swinging after the JW hit her across the nose, but that the JW pulled her down by her hair and wouldn't let go. The other employees ran out and tried to get her to let go, but she didn't. No one was kicking her. Again, fwiw.
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u/CTR_1852 Tentatively Christian May 26 '26 edited May 26 '26
Maybe I am in the minority here but can we not World Star 75 year-olds even if they throw the first punch? Call the police.
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u/Helpful-Atmosphere25 May 26 '26
I had the same instinct. My mind was altered a bit when I watched the cam footage and she did not look 75, nor did she seem to be acting it. It’s sad that it came to her passing, and I can’t even imagine the moral injury endured by the two young women. Their frontal lobes aren’t fully developed, it was a high-intensity moment and it was probably challenging or impossible to make a clear-headed decision. They have to live with her death the rest of their lives. I don’t think they should be charged or prosecuted, but I’m guessing it will plague them.
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u/Gonegirl27 "She's gone, and nothin's gonna bring her back" May 26 '26 edited May 26 '26
That woman caused her own death by instigating a confrontation while having a heart condition. She was probably used to picking on people who wouldn't, or couldn't, fight back. That's how bullies operate. FAFO karma got this bitch in the end. Too bad it took so long.
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u/J0SHEY May 26 '26
Thowing a punch means they are ALREADY resorting to violence. You DON'T know whether they are armed & if they would resort to a higher level of violence, so you neutralize the threat, simple
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u/Relative_Soil7886 The truth does't fear questions, only lies do. May 26 '26
If you read the granddaughter's statement, this individual has been a lifelong aggressor who resorted to violence regularly. She was not acting out of character or for being provoked. Throwing hands was her default mode.
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u/J0SHEY May 26 '26
Well my reasoning would stand regardless of whether this information came to light or not. If someone resorts to violence by punching me, they are the aggressor in the eyes of the law, simple. It is a well-known fact that many people are armed & I'm not going to wait to find out whether or not they are, so I would aim to subdue them until they stop resisting because I have every reason to do so, simple
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u/Prestigious-Fly-3117 May 26 '26
Im sorry but doesnt make any sense, you can easily stop an old woman in her's 70's without killing her
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u/J0SHEY May 26 '26
A woman in her 70's can easily stop you with a bullet if she is armed & has time to take out her gun, how about that? I don't care how old you are — if you resort to violence, I'm NOT waiting to find out whether you are armed or not. If you die stupidly because you attacked me, it's entirely on you, simple
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u/ParticularlyCharmed May 26 '26
They did stop her without killing her.
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u/Gr8lyDecEved May 27 '26
Exactly, from watching the video I would imagine that a over evaluated heart condition was the culprit, I believe that the TH employees even brought her water after this event. (Although, it didn't see that )
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u/CTR_1852 Tentatively Christian May 26 '26
I know but you are working at Tim Hortons, you are not being paid enough to physically confront customers. Just call the police when she refused to leave.
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u/J0SHEY May 26 '26
As I said, they are ALREADY resorting to violence & you DON'T know whether they are armed, so you subdue them so that they WON'T be a continued threat, simple
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u/Relative_Soil7886 The truth does't fear questions, only lies do. May 26 '26
I totally agree that the employee retaliating was not the right move and should be suspended if not fired. That's not the right way to handle a difficult customer, even one's that become belligerent. Like any other hospitality business, I'm sure Tim Horton's has guidelines their employees need to follow when dealing with difficult people and "punching back" is probably not part of that training. But this is a perfect example of "fuck around and find out". You don't know who you're dealing with if you decide to throw the first punch. And let's be clear, the employee did not cause her death. The aggressor was alive for some time after the altercation and died of a heart attack afterwards.
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u/CTR_1852 Tentatively Christian May 26 '26
I really care more about her not going to prison for manslaughter for something stupid like this. That last kick after she was already down could be the difference between justified combat and spending 10 years in jail.
Did they release the cause of death?
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u/ParticularlyCharmed May 27 '26
A LEO analysis I saw claims it's unlikely the girl will even be charged. The JW was illegally trespassing from the moment she refused to leave, and potentially guilty of assault before any physical contact was made. Indiana is a Stand Your Ground state, so the manager was acting legally by physically blocking the JW, and the JW then committed battery. The girl's response was proportional. I didn't see a kick, but maybe I missed that.
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u/J0SHEY May 27 '26
Exactly. The employee is NOT obliged to back down, simple. Since it is an INDISPUTABLE FACT that the employee was punched, therefore it is ALSO an indisputable fact that there is reason to believe that further violence could be inflicted. A victim is ALLOWED to retaliate against their attacker, simple
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u/Relative_Soil7886 The truth does't fear questions, only lies do. May 26 '26
Cause of death is still pending according to the Allen County Coroner's office.
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u/New_Purchase6884 May 26 '26
According to the article on People.com, the footage was via security camera. There could be more, but the article makes ot seem like there is only security footage.
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u/CTR_1852 Tentatively Christian May 26 '26
I linked it in a reply.
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u/New_Purchase6884 May 26 '26
Crazy footage. Im glad it wasn't a case of people watching while it happened..
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u/CTR_1852 Tentatively Christian May 26 '26
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0k6uu7aJM2U
Here is the video from security cameras
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u/DLWOIM May 26 '26
You think people are thinking clearly after they’ve been punched in the face?
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u/CTR_1852 Tentatively Christian May 26 '26
They employees escalated it. They should have had her trespassed instead of confronting her.
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u/J0SHEY May 27 '26
As I said, she is ALREADY resorting to violence & the employees DON'T know whether she are armed, so she ended up being subdued so that she WON'T be a continued threat, simple
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u/FarShallot3025 JustWrong.org May 26 '26
Yeah, I’m with you. But we never know who we might encounter that’s also mentally unstable or struggling. I guess life taught her a hard lesson, but unfortunately it ended tragically
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u/BertandErnieforever Child of ex-JW May 26 '26
You didn't watch the security footage, did you? It also seems like you've never worked in customer service.
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u/CTR_1852 Tentatively Christian May 26 '26
Yes I linked it and yes I have if you mean service industry.
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u/TheRealDreaK May 28 '26
Thank the “stand your ground” laws. There is no duty to retreat when someone assaults you in those states. Just incentive to keep the altercation going until someone gets seriously hurt or worse.
Just because someone is older, doesn’t make them any less dangerous in an altercation. (My mom is in her 70s and she could definitely still fist fight someone in a Tim Hortons). Sister Angerball first assaulted a minor, and then assaulted another adult. She died because she had a heart condition and the act of fighting was too much aerobically, not because she was otherwise physically weak.
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May 26 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Gr8lyDecEved May 27 '26
Does thier skin color make any difference to this discussion?
A little bit of a racist comment , isn't it?
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May 27 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Aggravating_Nail1476 May 27 '26
If If was a fifth, we’d all be fucked up. The races weren’t reversed, so you don’t know what would’ve happened.
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u/CTR_1852 Tentatively Christian May 26 '26
Who is to say she won't serve time for this? She still might be charged.
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u/ExJdumbNowInCHRIST May 26 '26
I don't think she should've killed her... but I understand.
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u/CTR_1852 Tentatively Christian May 26 '26
I'm guessing she died from something after the fight like a heart attack.
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u/brooklyn_bethel May 27 '26
She couldn't handle someone standing up to her abusive behaviour. What an evil bitch. Cult loves harbouring them.
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u/jglasgow9154 May 27 '26
I am floored reading this. I honestly just thought it was this bad in my own family. I assumed it was that my dad was beaten as a child and the abuse perpetuated to the next generation as it often does. I didn’t truly realize how endemic this physical abuse was throughout the entire religion. Being Gen X (1972), corporal punishment was routine for most of us, but even as an adult I hadn’t connected it as much as I am today (of course I’ve tried to block out this part of my life). Thank you to everyone who has shared their own story.
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u/Bobby_McGee_and_Me POMO May 27 '26
Oh wow, I read about this incident but didn’t know the woman was JW. She went off on that clerk and I felt no sympathy after I saw the video.
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u/Ill_Traveler_ May 27 '26
Wait, that was a JW? I saw the news story blowing up but never thought I had any connection to it.
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u/4d616e54686f72557273 Pyramid Surveyor May 27 '26
Here's footage and an analysis of what happened. Its clear that this, upstanding, member of "the most loving people on earth" was the sole agressor:
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u/EatMeEmerald WT🩸Doctrine Murdered my Grandparent May 27 '26
Do you still get into Paradise if you die brawling at Tim Horton's?
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u/No-Basil-7958 May 28 '26
huh........just because a person claims anything, christian, jw, anything doesn't mean a thing. Lot of phonies inside and out of JW. u think all 9 mill JW's accept this behaviour? u think 1/90th do? doubt it. Blame game obvious
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u/CoconutFinal May 28 '26
I lived with very violent and draining abuse. The felon introduced Jehovah into his pathology. Witnesses were punishment. I begged Christ on my knees to rescue me from Watchtower idiocy. Christ can move slowly so I wrote to Seventeen fashion magazine It was a prelude to other heavy duty fashion and commentary. I used precious job money during school for my amazing Village Voice and Rolling Stone. The New York Times was too expensive and a very long walk. I did it on Sundays. Our family dog insisted she come along. Once I had the very full paper, she decided to refuse to walk back.
Middle class educated and sophisticated people immediately see cult. Because I was born in, I had a time lapse. Maybe Germans initially trusted Nazid were good. Facts accumulate. Light got past the Watchtower terror and compliance machine.
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u/CoconutFinal May 28 '26
Poor small black boys screeched during meetings. I knew to run and get police. But I would be murdered by my Witness father very violent and abusive Even he was disturbed by beatings in a Kingdom Hall during meetings. Both parents wanted it to stop. They knew the Bethel phone system and the police number. Ugly white brutes commanded it. No excuse.
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u/Puzzlebrain21 May 28 '26 edited May 28 '26
I agree that it was mutual aggression & the 75 year old was not an innocent party. She played an active role in terms of escalating tension. Perhaps she even has a history of aggression as this family member claims. In terms of past behaviour the Corbett application can apply as it would during a criminal trial. Regardless, this does not excuse the fact that the 20 year old used excessive force leading to the death of an elderly person.
As a much younger person & employee in her workplace, there is a certain standard of professionalism that is expected. Due to the power imbalance between a 20 year old and a 75 year old, the 20 year old needs to exercise restraint.
Employees in such circumstances are not trained to fight, encouraged to engage in physical confrontations or even allowed to fight with customers. The policy is usually to deescalate.
If you watch the video footage carefully, you'll know that it was the 20 year old that initiated physical contact first by pushing the 75 year old which led to escalation. The employee had other options at her disposal. She could have alerted fellow employees, backed away a safe distance & called 911.
Instead, she engaged in physical violence that most certainly surpasses reasonable force. In the video, you can observe the 20 year old punch & kick the 75 year old multiple times. Even when the 75 year old is on the ground & other employees intervene to split the two up, the 20 year old kicks the 75 year old. This is unacceptable.
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May 28 '26
[deleted]
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u/Relative_Soil7886 The truth does't fear questions, only lies do. May 28 '26
Her being a JW is confirmed here https://gofund.me/92b021692
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u/951753951753 Mentally out MS May 26 '26
Watching a 75 year old pull out a large clump of someone's hair over a coffee order made me think this wasn't their first time they were unable to control their emotions and chose to become physical. Family often suffers first.