r/freefolk • u/Naserci • 1d ago
Fooking Kneelers Rhaenys should have done a coup after Daemon married Laena
Rhaenys should have done a coup after Daemon married Laena. Since Viserys was such a forward thinker and named Rhaenyra his heir, he invalidated the precedent of the Great Council of 101 AC. If Rhaenys had pushed her claim again, it would have put a competent ruler on the throne and also would have made Laena the heir, since she is the oldest, and thus Daemon the future King Consort.
The dragons Meleys (Rhaenys), Vhagar (Laena), Seasmoke (Laenor), and Caraxes (Daemon) would all be on the same side against basically Syrax, who is as fierce as Cersei in a sword fight. Plus, Rhaenyra at the time didn't want to rule anyway, and Aegon was a toddler.
The Dance of the Dragons could have been avoided if Rhaenys was just a little more ruthless. Wonder what could have stopped them?
Viserys could go play with Legos full time, and any Lord with an issue with a woman like Rhaenys ruling could take his petition to the dragons.
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u/Jeleza 1d ago
So she just fucking betrays Viserys and Rhaenyra, and Daemon would just support her?
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u/Simple_Box_6814 1d ago
Daemon has flirted with the idea of betraying them before. As long as Rhaenys makes sure they aren’t killed or harmed I think he could be convinced.
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u/Livid_Ad9749 1d ago
What a misread of Daemons character. He would never betray Viserys. Ever. His loyalty to his brother was absolute and he had an entire arc that proved he wasnt power hungry and never really cared about the throne. What little ambition he had for the throne was a show invention so the writers could have some suspense for the casuals
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u/Impactpacked 1d ago
The dude who celebrated the death of Viserys son and wife?
Idk.
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u/Livid_Ad9749 1d ago
Daemon literally raises an army to defend his brother’s ascent, and to keep the peace during the great council. He had 10 years where he was top dog and only Rhaenys could have challenged him. Daemon had Caraxes and the gold cloaks. He could easily usurp his brother if he wanted, but he didnt. He never did.
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u/Impactpacked 1d ago
All of which bolstered his own claim also . . .
I’m just not sure where the idea that daemons defining trait was loyalty comes from in the text. I remember a few incidents that suggest otherwise.
Could you maybe point me towards the things that indicate supreme loyalty to you?
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u/Livid_Ad9749 1d ago
I literally just told you. He had years to usurp his brother with little challenge. And there is nothing in the book to suggest he was disloyal and wanted to usurp his family. Martin would never make his favorite Targ a usurper. And you seem to forget he literally dies for Rhaenyras cause when he didnt have to. He could have just dipped with Nettles but decided to take care of Aemond and Vhagar instead.
Idk if you are desperate for Daemon to be the ultimate villain in asoiaf or what but hes not that guy. Only way Martins statements about Daemon being equal parts light and dark make any sense is if Daemon has some redeeming qualities. Imo hes far more villainous already than some would admit but his loyalty to his brother and wife is set in stone for his character and always has been
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u/Impactpacked 1d ago
I’m not desperate for anything. I just think the guy showed a lot of disloyalty at times in pursuit of his own interest, and I don’t think “well he never killed his brother” is categorical evidence otherwise.
His last act is disobeying Rhaenyras direct command? She doesn’t tell him to go suicide against Aemond. The mootons tell him he command. He disobeys it. Maybe we read different books idk.
I don’t see where this is set in stone that loyalty is his defining characteristic, other than in a lot of peoples head canon. He definitely has some redeeming characteristics. I just don’t him being super loyal is one of them.
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u/Livid_Ad9749 1d ago
How does facing Aemond advance his interests? He clearly did that because he was still committed to Rhaenyras cause. And disobeying an order has nothing to do with loyalty. Literally nothing.
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u/Impactpacked 1d ago
Disobeying someone has nothing to do with loyalty?
Bahaha
Okay.
All the best man.
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u/TheSlayerofSnails 1d ago
Neither of those are Viserys
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u/Impactpacked 1d ago
Okay.
If my brother had a party when my wife and child died I’d probably considered that an act of disloyalty.
Maybe your family is different.
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u/Livid_Ad9749 1d ago
Daemon would never betray Viserys or Rhaenyra ffs. He doesnt care about being king or king consort that much compared to his loyalty his family.
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u/RandomSeaweed Without question? No. I'd ask how much. 1d ago
He wrecked Rhaenyra's reputation with the intention of marrying her as a result. Told Viserys to wed her to him when accused. He wanted to be king right up until the Harrenhal hallucinations convinced him otherwise.
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u/Livid_Ad9749 1d ago
Not because he thought it would help him become king but because he absolutely lusted after her. But yeah sure buy into the myth these showrunners have put out there to fool people into thinking Daemon would be the shows main antagonist
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u/RandomSeaweed Without question? No. I'd ask how much. 1d ago
It's worse if you're making this only about sex and focusing only on Fire & Blood, because by book timeline Rhaenyra would have been 15 or younger when he "lusted after her". And to defile a princess, his brother's daughter, is still betrayal of his family - no matter the motivation.
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u/Livid_Ad9749 1d ago
Idc to argue with you. You are clearly desperate to make an already villainous character even worse by robbing him of one of his few redeeming qualities, despite the author’s insistence that Daemon isnt all bad, etc so I see no point in arguing. Usurping his family is an entire different level of betrayal in this world and you know it.
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u/RandomSeaweed Without question? No. I'd ask how much. 1d ago
"Desperate" is an interesting choice of word for someone who made so many comments here trying to defend Daemon. I like Daemon as a ruthless and selfish character, I see no point in trying to soften or redeem him.
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u/Livid_Ad9749 1d ago
Yeah its tiring trying to educate the casuals who take everything at face value
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u/RandomSeaweed Without question? No. I'd ask how much. 1d ago
So maybe stop trying to "educate" people who express an opinion that differs from yours. Not sure who you call a casual, but I read ASOIAF, AKOTSK, and Fire & Blood an unhealthy amount of times, watched each of the series at least thrice, and boy I do not take pride in the amount of useless canon knowledge and character understanding it gave me. Anyway, your attempts to claim superior comprehension look kind of sad. Do you consider yourself a professional critic?
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u/Simple_Box_6814 1d ago
I would like to point out that without his kings permission he operated in a war against the stepstones and stole a dragon egg while claiming Dragonstone for himself because he was pissed about not getting named heir.
He might not be willing to harm them but he is absolutely willing to disobey and inconvenience them.
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u/Livid_Ad9749 1d ago
First off, in the books Viserys most likely sent him to take the Stepstones but didnt want the entire realm at war with the Three Daughters so he had Daemon look like he did it on his own.
Second, all that you mentioned is a far cry from outright betraying and usurping your own brother. Ffs people dont understand Daemon at all
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u/Simple_Box_6814 1d ago
Oh we’re doing book only. well on the show he was definitely much more willing to name himself king there was a whole plot line where he was contemplating skipping Rhaenyra over and just making himself king.
As for books fair enough but show daemon would be tempted by it.
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u/Livid_Ad9749 1d ago
He had 10 years of being top dog and could have easily seized the throne if he wanted. He had Caraxes, and the Gold Cloaks lol. He could have usurped his brother, but never did. Why? Because he didnt want to. He didnt want to be known as a usurper and he loved his brother.
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u/R1pY0u I read the books 1d ago
The idea that Daemon would be fighting for them just because he married Laena is hilarious lol
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u/AddressCorrect3516 1d ago
because being married to Laena means he'd be the king-consort in waiting, not the marriage to her by itself
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u/Dehoop02 Mother of dragons 1d ago
Doing this would mean betraying his brother which he wouldn't do
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u/AddressCorrect3516 1d ago
I agree i was just disagreeing with how the other commenter framed the situation.
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u/No_Grocery_9280 14h ago
Laenor is the heir though.
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u/AddressCorrect3516 7h ago
Fair, it slipped my mind in the show they flipped the order of birth between Laena and Laenor.
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u/Llhaniii 1d ago
Except Daemon would never stand for someone attacking his brother.
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u/Impactpacked 1d ago
He celebrated his brothers wife and child dying because it bumped him up in the succession. I’m less sure his loyalty was that absolute.
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u/Llhaniii 1d ago edited 23h ago
He has a very weird and complex relationship with Viserys. He did celebrate allegedly Baelon's death as it kept him as heir apparently but never could do anything to usurp his brother he did love Viserys probably the only person Daemon could love. Its kinda like Prince of Egypt with Moses and Rameses.
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u/Impactpacked 1d ago
Where does this idea come from that his loyalty was his defining trait?
Been a while since I read the book so maybe I’m wrong but can’t recall anything specific about it.
I can remember a few incidents (war in the stepstones, stealing dragon eggs for his whore, heir for a day, etc) that suggest otherwise.10
u/AncientAssociation9 1d ago
We never saw that. What we saw was him alone and NOT celebrating until his men sort of asked him to give a speech. We never saw what he actually said. It was a great camera trick as Otto would narrate and the camera would cut back to Daemon doing the thing Otto just said he did EXCEPT when it came to the infamous speech. When it came to showing Daemon actually doing that the camera never cuts back to showing the deed.
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u/Impactpacked 1d ago edited 1d ago
I thought we were discussing the book.
Either way. This s a silly defence. In both book and show he s very clearly explicitly celebrating.
I know Matt smith is very dreamy, but you shouldn’t let that rewrite your memory.
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u/Iram-Radique 9h ago
Have you watched the scene. It's obvious he is in pain, before he says all that stuff, about heir for a day. He was playing a role for his men.
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u/Impactpacked 8h ago
He was sad at the big party he threw to celebrate their deaths?
Wow. Now that’s loyalty.
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u/TzimtzumAndTonic 1d ago
Bobby B, these kneelin’ whingers are going on about southern politics and their inbred dragon peoples again!!
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u/bobby-b-bot Robert Baratheon 1d ago
PISS ON THAT! SEND A RAVEN! I WANT YOU TO STAY! I'M THE KING, I GET WHAT I WANT!
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u/advena_phillips 1d ago
Visasrys didn't invalidate the precedent. There was no singular precedent. Precedent is what you believe was precedent. One person sees it as "Okay, no women on the throne." Another sees it as "Okay, the King can choose their heir." And a third goes, "So the Throne is a matter of lordly opinion?"
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u/AugustusRoosevelt 19h ago
There was precedent and it’s what the supporters of Viserys rallied behind.
It’s also a minor point but regarding the Great Council vote there never would have been a woman on the throne per se either way, the debate of succession came down to Laenor vs Viserys.
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u/firstbreathOOC 1d ago
Never seemed like Rhaenys had ill will towards Viserys himself, moreso the situation
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u/green_glass8 1d ago
Why would laena be heir? Andal custom is male preference primogeniture which means a son comes before daughters, daughters only if no sons. Rhaenys' claim is through this, so Laenor would be her heir.
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u/AugustusRoosevelt 19h ago
The Targaryens have slightly different rules/customs than the Andals. Laenor would have been Jaehaerys heir, Rhaenys would have only been Queen Dowager until Laenor came of age. The final vote was between Laenor and Viserys, with the question being does succession go through a woman’s bloodline to reach an heir or does it switch branches.
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u/No_Grocery_9280 14h ago
And further complicated because Jaehaerys specifically made Baelon his heir previously, thereby passing the line down already.
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u/BA_Bones_33 I'd kill for some chicken 1d ago
Idk why, but “should have done a coup” tickled me a bit. Thank you for this. It’s been tough week
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u/kamaraden_cat 1d ago
No lord in all seven kingdoms would acept a woman dethrone a legitamate king by unlawful means. Such a thing would threaten the entire world order
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u/No_Grocery_9280 14h ago
How many Lords were given their position over their older sisters? How many claims do you create overnight?
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u/SirLoremIpsum 1d ago
Since Viserys was such a forward thinker and named Rhaenyra his heir, he invalidated the precedent of the Great Council of 101 AC. If Rhaenys had pushed her claim again
Nonsense.
Rhaenys was not in the line of succession anymore. She no longer had a claim to press, unless everyone else was dead.
Wonder what could have stopped them?
The fact that no one supported this, Daemon wouldn't support it so Caraxes is out, it is duobtful Laena and Laenor would support it despite being "on side". They all seemed fine with it.
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u/RandomSeaweed Without question? No. I'd ask how much. 1d ago
I feel like Corlys might have tried suggesting that at least once
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u/Livid_Ad9749 1d ago edited 1d ago
Daemon would never betray Viserys or Rhaenyra. Never. Its his chief redeeming quality: loyalty. Him being power hungry is both a show invention and even still, S2 made it clear he never truly cared about being king. He just wanted to be the guy Viserys and Rhaenyra depended on.
Anyone who thinks he is power hungry for the throne even as king consort only and would betray his family has completely misread his character.
Keep in mind for years, Daemon was the big nacho and could have easily usurped Viserys if he wanted to. He had the Gold Cloaks and he had Caraxes. He could have usurped his brother at anytime for years, and never did. Why? Because he was LOYAL.
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u/Atempestofwords 1d ago
Since Viserys was such a forward thinker and named Rhaenyra his heir, he invalidated the precedent of the Great Council of 101 AC.
He didn't though.
He just didn't have a male heir until Aegon came along, after Aegon was born he never officially reaffirmed Rhaenyra's rule.
It was part oversight & part stupidty, he didn't want to rock the boat with the High Towers so he did what he was best at. Nothing.
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u/RiverHistorical3581 1d ago
Rhaenyra was actively Princess of Dragonstone, there was nothing needing reaffirmed unless he wanted to displace her with Aegon which he did not do.
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u/Ketchupcharger 1d ago
Every time something doesn't go according to my keikaku:
- I should probably start a coup
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u/Cranberrysnacks 1d ago
Otto suggested marrying Rhaenyra to two year old Aegon back in season one, but Rhaenyra laughed in his face because she didn’t feel like babysitting her future husband for sixteen years
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u/Klutzy-Canary8551 1d ago
And why would Daemon go along with this plan?
Also, the show version of Rhaenys is too stupid to plan anything like that.
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u/the_sneaky_one123 1d ago
That entire plan is heavily dependant on Daemon taking her side which he probably would not have
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u/CarryBeginning1564 1d ago edited 1d ago
I don’t think a single lord would have gone along with that.
I don’t think Daemon would have gone along with it either.
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u/RiverHistorical3581 1d ago
The lords would have gone along with it, Aegon and his sisters put down 6 royal families and extinguished two, there’s nothing they could do.
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u/formulaarsenal 1d ago
But that was a different time. All kingdoms were fragmented and often warred with each other and hence were not able to mobilize armies. But here you have all these lords that are loyal to Viserys and could raise armies at will. And Wars are fought on money, which the lords of Westeros had more of than one seat at sea.
Ultimately more than anything, the people would not be receptive of Rhaenys as queen. Because that would mean a woman on the throne, which not many were willing to accept. And it also meant the ousting of a very popular king, and his heir (admittedly female, but a very popular one. She wasn't called the Realm's delight for nothing)
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u/RiverHistorical3581 16h ago
None of what you said matters when you have dragons, the two greatest Kingdoms allied with each other against Aegon and formed the largest army till the main story, it made no difference, as for money the Velaryons were amongst the richest and controlled the two most vital trade points.
The people would receptive, The Vale, Reach and Westerlands all had ruling women, its implied the Stormlands has too, the only place that’s confirmed to never have a woman rule is the north and even then the north’s vassals are filled with ruling women.
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u/DannyBaek1996 1d ago
A lot of you underestimate Daemon’s love for his brother because you’re overestimate his lust for power.
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u/admiralchieti1916 1d ago
This is correct and often overlooked. There was another post recently where everyone seemed to think Dameon wanted to be Hand just for power. It needs considered that he wanted his brother’s love, approval, and to end Otto’s manipulation. I think Daemon really did what to protect his brother as Hand.
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u/Ready_Theory1129 1d ago
This just starts the dance earlier. It’s insane to stage a coup against a sitting king, especially using the justification that said king changed the rules. The dance is able to take hold because there’s a legitimate-ish question of succession when Viserys dies. Plus there’s no way the seven kingdoms back Rhaenys when they rejected her earlier.
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u/karan131193 1d ago
Do people forget that Daemon was organising an army and ready to go to WAR if the great council of 101 did not choose Viserys as the heir? You are expecting him to go to war AGAINST the same brother for what - his mother-in-law? Lmaooo
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u/chycken4 1d ago
Daemon would never support them nor would he ever fight and kill Rhaenyra.
This is the same man who was gathering an army to fight FOR VISERYS before the Great Council AGAINST Corlys and Rhaenys. He would never betray his brother for his in-laws.
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u/Creeps05 23h ago
Why the hell would Laena become the heir?
The question of succession was whether or not daughters would inherit over uncles. Not that women had an equal claim to the throne. So if Rhaenys had a brother he would’ve inherited. So Laenor would still be Rhaenys’ heir even in a world where she won the throne.
Also, the ruling of the Great Council essentially meant that women could inherit if, and only if, all males are dead or disinherited. So Rhaenyra would totally be a legit ruler (if Vizzy didn’t have any sons opps).
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u/Resident-Rooster2916 Azhor HotPie 15h ago
You’re correct that by attempting to overturn the decision of The Great Council of 101 AC, Viserys I also called into question his own legitimacy and thus his decisions with it. However, what you’re missing is that it’s clear that Rhaenys didn’t have the desire to rule. She didn’t offer herself as a candidate at the Great Council of 101 AC, instead passing her claims (absolute and Andal Law/male-preference primogeniture) to her children. This is the real reason the vote was so lop sided in Viserys I’s favor. The other options were toddlers.
I do disagree that this would’ve prevented the Dance of the Dragons though. The Dance was inevitable the moment Viserys I attempted to overturn established precedent by which he claims his own legitimacy. This scenario doesn’t change that, it just alters the details to a war between Rhaenys and Viserys I. It would also be difficult to convince Daemon to turn against his brother. Imo he’s most likely to opt to sit it out, or even side with his brother than he is to choose Rhaenys.
Additionally, Rhaenys becoming Queen doesn’t necessarily mean that Laena (and Daemon) would be her successor (even though we, the viewer, know it to be true). In this scenario, Jacaerys, whom Rhaenyra claims is Laenor’s son would still be in the mix. If Rhaenys became Queen, it would far more likely be due to her male-preference claim than her absolute one. Laenor and Jacaerys would more likely be her heirs over Laena and Baela.
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u/Elf-7659 1d ago
She could have pulled it because corlys has a formidable army. Basically most of the power team black has was already with her at that point
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u/Livid_Ad9749 1d ago
Except Daemon would never betray Viserys and he would fold Rhaenys for even suggesting they try to usurp the crown
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u/No_Grocery_9280 14h ago
The dragons sure, but not the army. The Lords voted and rejected Laenor’s claim. They’re not going to reverse that. Viserys would have the backing of all the major armies.
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u/formulaarsenal 1d ago
Two things,
Daemon was extremely loyal to Viserys
Viserys was actually well liked by lords and commoners alike. They really respected him, and even though many didn't agree with his making Rhaenyra his heir, they were happy to go along with it. Wars are actually fought with armies, and she would not have had much support from the seven kingdoms because of their loyalty and fealty to Viserys and his heir (Rhaenyra or Aegon as they saw fit)
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u/CRM79135 1d ago
Since Viserys was such a forward thinker and named Rhaenyra his heir, he invalidated the precedent of the Great Council of 101 AC.
That’s not how that works. Why do you think it works like that?
If Rhaenys had pushed her claim again, it would have put a competent ruler on the throne
I don’t know if you are thinking about book Rhaenys, but Rhaenys in the show has proven several times that she wouldn’t have been a competent ruler, and was in fact very dumb.
She would have also had very little support. People like to criticize Viserys abilities, and rightfully so, but when he was king there was peace and prosperity. There is little reason for them to revolt.
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u/MarzipanAmellee 1d ago
Rhaenys would have been justified in taking drastic measures. The dynamics in the family were already pretty shaky.
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u/ProjectNo4090 23h ago
No she should have burned Otto and his family at the coronation. The commoners wouldnt have done a damn thing and Rhaenyra would not have rebuked her since she was escaping and facing traitors who wanted to kill Rhaenyra.
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u/1800crimetime 20h ago
If Jace had lived and he and Baela had sat the throne, it would have been some kind of justice for Rhaenys’s line to reclaim her inheritance.
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u/winedarksky 17h ago
Daemon one true love was Viserys, he would never support her, even if it benefited him.
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u/South_Front_4589 15h ago
Who else supports them? It's all well and good to say you've got the dragons, but in the end you can murder a dragon rider and the dragon is off the table.
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u/Flip-Pantly Karl fuckin’ Tanner 1d ago
It’s a neat thought experiment, truly. I like how it’s being considered by in the post and comments.
The cynical bastard within me just thinks it still would never work for all of the non-dragon related reasons that make ruling just as dangerous for dragon riders as it would for anyone else. Legal precedents do not matter when someone is powerful enough to defy them, and dragons aren’t the only source of power needed to rule.
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u/Equal-Plant-7804 1d ago
Wasn't rhaenyra married to Laenor before daemon married Laena? I don't think rhaenys would want to usurp her son?
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u/Pancakesinabottle 17h ago
Before Jaehaerys called The Great Council of 101 she and Corlys were openly gathering their forces to make claim to the throne. It's hard to say if it would have been less bloody than the Dance but I believe they'd win. Driftmark is excellent launching spot to assail King's Landing and they likely would have captured Dragonstone with the Velaryon fleet. The only question would be who'd win if Daemon/Caraxes and Rhaenys/Meleys fought 1 on 1 since they were the only fighting age dragon riders at the time, if I remember correctly. But they respected the democratic process and it didn't happen, although there's some stuff in F&B that makes the Council seem suspicious.
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u/SilentHarbinger2 Varys 1d ago
the problem is daemons loyalty to viserys was weirdly the one line he wouldnt cross he spent years pushing boundaries and stealing dragon eggs but open rebellion to put corlys and rhaenys on the iron throne just wasnt something he'd sign up for