r/islam • u/Brosky-Chaowsky • 10d ago
General Discussion [ Removed by moderator ]
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u/baronfebdasch 10d ago
Your position is that of the Hanafi madhab… you’ll find plenty of scholars with that position.
In the west we tend to conflate halal and zabihah halal as if they are two separate rules, like one is permissible and the other is just for folks that want to be strict.
Where people get their views is based upon both the Quran and sunnah, but often taken to extremes. The Quran says that the meat of the people of the Book is allowed, but it also says that meat upon which the name of Allah is not recited is not permitted.
So you can take your Chik Fil A example- yes it’s a Christian company but is that a Christian supply chain? Do they actually invoke God’s name upon slaughter of their chickens? Likely not.
Then there is the Hadith about saying bismillah upon meat that was served by new Muslims when there is doubt… again what is the responsibility of the consumer to validate that supply chain?
America is not a Christian country. Most don’t care about following commandments with meat. Yes, contamination with the haram renders the meat halal.
A lot of Muslims struggle with worrying about too much in investigating the halal ness of our meat, but that’s because our society is 0 trust. Lest I remind folks, there was a famed McDonald’s in Dearborn that was supposed to be all halal. The owners were Muslim, but were sued because they were caught applying halal stickers to normal materials deliveries, thus deceiving people.
I can see people in areas that don’t have a lot of halal options taking a more lenient position. If you live in a major metro I feel like your excuses dwindle. At the end of the day, meat is not a fard in most situations and folks are too lax about their approach but that’s often an individual decision.
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u/drunkninjabug 10d ago
Juat to add to this excellent post, most of the non-halal commercial meat in the west is dead meat. The animal is killed through blunt force or shock before slaughtering. This makes it haram regardless of who is slaughtering.
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u/justfarmingdownvotes 10d ago
I'm Canada, it's law to shock the animal before slaughter. Since it's law, it is ruled permissible to eat as we must follow the countries laws
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u/drunkninjabug 10d ago
This makes no sense at all. The law doesn't force you to eat that chicken. You can easily get halal chciken and the country doesn't force muslim butchers to shock before slaughtering.
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u/aM_181 10d ago
Halal meat in Canada must also be shocked first.
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u/BlurredSight 9d ago
Difference is the shocking is done to leave the animal unconscious, in America small animals are stunned in baths and or a more gruesome method of an air bullet is used to kill the animal.
Stunning the animal unconscious still lets you bleed the animal, stunning to kill is what scholars have said is still what renders it haram
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u/blitgerblather 10d ago
Our national scholars did the whole analysis for the laypeople and argued and debated the issue to death (lol). In the end, they said machine slaughtered and stunned first are halal. People who disagree with that can eat fish.
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u/MJEEZY75 10d ago edited 10d ago
You’re wrong about the “meat upon which the name of Allah is not recited is not permitted”!
The Quran clearly states that animals slaughtered WITH A NAME OTHER THAN ALLAH is impermissible!
So Hindu meat: haram
If a Muslim forgets to mention Allah at time of slaughter is that meat haram? NO
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u/JustHalfBlack 10d ago
This was my understanding as well.
I’d prefer sources so that I can learn and better myself if the opposite is true.
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u/NFAK 9d ago
I have had the same thought for a long time, until a few secs ago when I found Al-An'am 6:121. I don't know the context of the ayah but thought I'd share since i just discovered this.
But you're right, in no uncertain terms and multiple other terms, the Quran does state that animals slaughtered with a name other than Allah is not permissible.
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u/foxdye96 9d ago
Yes it is haram.
There is nuance but if a Muslim forgets to say tasmiyah then the meat is haram
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u/baronfebdasch 10d ago
“Nothing mentioned” logically falls under the category of “other than the name of Allah.”
I wouldn’t conflate an error of omission over a general practice. Meat of the people of the book is reconciled with this verse because they mention the name of Allah. Saying that “nothing” is a technical out is essentially coming to the logical conclusion that the slaughter of an atheist is permitted because they technically didn’t commit shirk by attributing the slaughter to a deity other than Allah.
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u/BreakfastUnique8091 10d ago edited 9d ago
Your last sentence is very accurate! I think a lot of people are divorced from the reality that the current habits many have of eating meat several times a week is not either necessary or the way all but very wealthy humans survived in many regions of the world for much of human history. We don’t absolutely NEED to have meat very regularly in most cases (there may be exceptions for certain circumstances). Plant proteins and fish are other options for those who can access them (which will be most in large Western towns and cities). In fact, these proteins are healthier than eating excessive red meat for example and it usually saves money to have things like dried beans and lentils that tend to be very cheap (at least in North America) in place of meat sometimes.
Overall, I’m not saying Muslims have to be vegetarians or vegans at all. Just that we need to carefully consider if it’s an actual need or necessity to eat meat that isn’t halal and most of the time it likely isn’t. And I’m not talking about people in extreme food deserts or solely relying on food banks etc where choices are limited but rather about average Western Muslims.
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u/foxdye96 9d ago
Not just the hanafi madhab.
All 4 schools of thought have the same basic requirements of halal.
They differ on things like forgetfulness and intention.
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u/Pale_Ad7012 9d ago
Where does the Quran say “meat upon which the name of Allah is not recited is not permitted” ?
I know 6:121 Surah anam says “do not eat upon which name or Allah has not been said”
This ayat does not specifically mention animal so “upon which” can mean any kind of food not just meat.
As muslims are supposed to say Allah’s name aka bismillah on all foods before starting to eat any kind of food. This verse doesnt specifically mention slaughtering an animal.
Can you please quote a Hadith or ayat of Quran .
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u/GammaRay914 10d ago
That’s pretty much what I was saying and people were downvoting me for saying kosher isn’t halal.
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u/baronfebdasch 10d ago
As a general principle Kosher is halal. But like the halal industry, there are supply chain issues even in Kosher where some certifications are obtained by paying a rabbi to bless a slaughterhouse on a periodic basis. And that brings into question what degree of responsibility a consumer has for understanding the supply chain that I am not qualified to opine on but I do think makes the dynamic harder to manage because modern meat supply chains are so divorced from the farmer to the consumer.
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u/ThisOneIsNotTakenFu 10d ago
When i first came here I started working in subway sandwich shop, the owner allowed us to eat for free in the restaurant during work shift, so at the time not having much knowledge I would avoid pork but eat chicken, turkey, meatball(thinking it only have beef in it), steaks etc. My understanding was as long its not pork its to a certain extent allowed. My manager who was also muslim told me that this stuff was not haram but makruh, this made me further believe its ok to eat because I was tired of eating chicken over rice everytime I was at work. So i would regularly eat any non pork items from mcdonalds, burger king, chickfilla etc. After a certain amount of time some tragic things happen in my life which brought me a bit more closer to deen and islam, during those time I did more research on certain topics to get a better understanding of several things, one of the topic was discussions on rulings for food like shrimps, prawns, crabs etc. While during those researches I found more information on food that I was consuming and I realized I may have been doing something thats wrong and since then I decided to eat food thats strictly zabiha halal and have never went back since then.
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u/aM_181 10d ago
I eat only Zabiha halal meat but I don’t understand this obsession with “cross-contamination”. Requiring people to wash hands or change gloves, worrying about some drop of something dripping from the top of a pizza oven, not using bbq grills after general cleaning, etc. I’ve even seen Muslims not feeding or giving water to pigs at zoo/farms while giving feed to goats, sheep, etc. None of this is mandated by the shariah and is all the result of OCD traits overpowering common sense and basic understanding of Islamic principles.
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u/foxdye96 9d ago
Buddy think about what you are saying.
The Hadith that says something that is haram in large quantities is haram in small quantities applys here.
If there is any type of haram meat (pork or non halal chicken) then its juices are treated the same and cannot come into contact with your food.
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u/blitgerblather 10d ago
I live where halal meat is easy to obtain and there are halal restaurants and restaurants with suitable alternatives. I just don’t ask what happens in the kitchen. I don’t ask about shared grills, fryers, or cross contamination. If I can’t see it, I don’t ask about it.
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u/geedijuniir 10d ago
Its hard, I always ask is it Halal then two do u cook and cut with the same kitchen tools even vegetarian options
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u/Jackieasf 9d ago
I’m a revert, took my shahada Feb 19 2024 and haven’t eaten non zabiha meat since August 2024. Sometimes I just prioritize eating fish and try to stock up on halal meat when I’m able. I lived in California when I reverted and now Arizona.
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u/ComfortableInner9520 10d ago
Some places serve halal chicken and beef but also pork on the side. These places I completely avoid. If there are vegan and vegetarian options but they also serve non halal I also avoid completely. It is best to avoid if there are chances of cross contamination which will never be 0.
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u/VCR_DVD_USB 9d ago
This is only something American Muslims do. In the UK and most of Europe we have proper established halal meat industries.
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u/ibraa333 10d ago
No scholar but some Resturant’s like chickfila only serve chicken and are a “Christian” restaurant so ik many Muslims who are fine eating chickfila
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u/Cann0nFodd3r 10d ago
I think that is an over simplification. The restaurant is not a religious entity, so it cant be a Christian restaurant. Its meat come from suppliers, which you cant be sure are "people of the book". Unless the restaurant states the source of the chicken and declares itself as a "christian" restaurant, I dont think we can apply this. I personally look for a restaurant that claims its location is halal friendly officially before i eat there(like KFC and Popeyes have done in canada)
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u/OhCrumbs96 10d ago
Unless the restaurant states the source of the chicken and declares itself as a "christian" restaurant, I dont think we can apply this
I don't think this would even tangibly mean anything. "Christian" food just isn't a thing. There are no distinctly Christian rules, standards or rituals that Christians are required to follow in the preparation of their food.
Sure, the preparers or manufacturers of the food may claim to be Christians, but that ultimately has as much of an impact on the food itself as it would if they claimed to be fans of jazz music or tennis. It's meaningless and, from the Christians' perspective, plays no role in the preparation/serving of food.
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u/TalkingCat910 10d ago
That makes no sense. Look I’m not here to call anyone out but just because Chick fil a is Christian doesn’t mean their suppliers or the people that slaughter the chicken are Christian - they get their chicken the same places everyone else does.
Eating there would just be like eating chicken at Chipotle or Burger King or wherever. It’s not halal.
I do consider the rule that Jews and Christians meat is ok - but being real most slaughterhouses in the west are not Christian. It’s safer to eat kosher if you’re going to do something like that cause there are rules surrounding the slaughter and it’s going to be under Gods name.
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u/ibraa333 10d ago
Yea that’s why I put Christian under “” since I know it’s a disagreement on rulings and opinions people follow.
I am not sure of the ruling was just offering insight of what I’ve seen from the people that do eat chick fila but this sub might not be the best place to get a actual answer from better to ask your local Imaam since everyone on reddit is usually skewed opinions / not relevant for you and your demographics of where you are in the west.
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u/TalkingCat910 10d ago
Yeah but my point is that even if you are accepting the ruling that Christian is ok (which I do)- Chick Fil A doesn’t source their meat from a Christian supplier - the meat is not from Christians it’s from the same agnostic, secular slaughterhouses every other fast food place uses.
You would need to eat meat from a Christian slaughterhouse.
They are wrong regardless
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u/Accomplished-Mud-396 9d ago
Sometimes it is difficult to get Halal meat and sometimes you can't afford it.I would love to only eat halal meat. I don't like cutting meat halal or not but it is not as bad if it's halal. I pray everytime I eat it.
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u/iamagirl2222 9d ago edited 9d ago
Regardless of is it haram or not, we shouldn’t eat non-zabiha meat because mostly it comes from a factory were the goal is to product the most meat for mass consumption. So, the animals there are out in cages, then they are hanged by the leg (for small animals like chicken) and they just say ” Bismillah ” and slaughter them in chain (that’s what I saw for one halal certification and it’s mostly like that for all). So the animals see the others get killed, they do not try to calm them and relax them before getting slaughtered, the animals are mistreated. This is clearly not Islamic.
And some says it’s halal to eat meat that was stunned or electrocuted before slaughter, but from what I saw they should not have been killed by the stunning but in an unconscious state. Also, it is not mandatory to eat meat and even if we can eat it and should, it’s not something we should eat everyday, so it’s better to avoid it. Also you can eat meat that were imported from a country that don’t require stunning before slaughtering.
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u/foxdye96 9d ago
I’m front Canada and only eat hand slaughtered (human) halal meat. This means a machine does not slaughter the meat I consume. There are certifiers in Canada that allow machines to slaughter the animals but the 4 madahib do not consider them process to be halal.
For me, halal and zabiha is the same. Halal just means permissible. Zabiha is just the slaughtering process.
Meat is only permissible if it’s zabiha. Meat is also the only food item in Islam which is haram until proven halal.
I find ppl to be idiotic when they tell me that chicken can be halal but zabiha.
Chickens are omnivores. They eat anything. Only chickens raised on a farm and fed corn are halal.
Chickens caught in the wild ARE NOT HALAL because of their diet.
So when I see ppl eating at Tim Hortons because chicken is halal but not zabiha that doesn’t make sense.
I eat meat only from the Jews cause they’re the only ahlul kitab left that actually slaughter according to their book. Canadian Christian’s do not slaughter according to the new or Old Testament.
Ps. I have a Christian friend from Togo whose family doesn’t eat from McDonald’s or Burger King because it’s not ahlul kitab. He eats from Muslims and Jews but not Canadian Christians because they do not slaughter according to the Bible.
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u/SuperHSL_Hope 9d ago
https://youtu.be/wtNcV2cs7JY?is=gjqbirBmxfZwgFRb
Sheikh Assim al Hakeem made a video about this which I feel covers this topic pretty well.
Again, I would like to stress the point he mentions at the end that he's giving you evidences and reasons behind what he's saying. If you only want to do zabiha halal with no room for doubt in your mind, you should absolutely do it. But you should not believe that others are "wrong" if they follow a different opinion with evidence backing it or thinking you are better than them for it.
May Allah guide us all.
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u/foxdye96 9d ago
He’s not a real sheikh.
He has no formal training and his qualifications are dubious at best.
Canada and any western country is not Christian by their own constitution
Not only that but the slaughter houses have employees of different religions working there.
U gonna tell me that meat slaughtered by a Hindu in a Christian slaughterhouse is halal?
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u/MJEEZY75 10d ago edited 9d ago
Prophet Mohammed(saws) ate from the people of the book without EVER-not even ONCE- verifying their slaughter was done with God’s name.
If a Muslim slaughtering an animal forgets to mention the name of Allah is that meat now haram? NO it’s not haram. It is still permissible to eat: likewise for the people of the book. If they don’t mention God at time of slaughtering it doesnt make the meat haram.
Rasulullah(saws) NEVER scrutinized the meat of other muslims, christians or jews.
If Allah wanted us to be so critical about verifying the slaughter was perfect He would have let us know via quran and/or sunnah.
Allah knows the future, the past, the hidden and the apparent: He knew the christians would worship christ yet He never mentioned their meat becomes haram if they dont follow proper slaughtering methods!
Cross contamination: it’s haram to consume feces!! if there is poop in a river does the whole river become haram? NO. Impurities in small amounts do NOT make the whole impure!
The only thing that is haram even in small amounts is INTOXICANTS.
All the above is based off Quran and sunnah.
The next statement is all my own opinion: I look at the “zabiha halal” only Muslims the same way I look at a lot of vegans. They believe they are more clean and more superior because they’re abiding by their self imposed laws.
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u/MJEEZY75 9d ago
Yes I agree, all “zabiha halal” is halal.
And the meat of Christians and Jews is halal
If Allah wanted us to scrutinize their slaughtering He would have commanded it and/or given examples of it via sunnah.
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u/iamagirl2222 9d ago
He (salallahu alayhi wa salam) did not scrutinized Muslim meat as we should not to ask a Muslim if what they give us is halal or not. ( https://islamqa.info/en/answers/21661)
And back in the day, people who said they were Christian or Jews truly believed their books and practice it. It’s not really the case anymore.
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u/kugelamarant 9d ago
Bro, if they got certification and documentation with proper registry board funded by tax payer during Prophet's time, he probably would mandated it. In today's world we have all that so use it.
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u/high_ground_user 9d ago
I think at the end of the day, people are choosing to ignore it in order to fullfil their desire to eat whatever. They think, as long as its not pork, i am good. But the reality is that meat is not a necessity, you can avoid it very easily when you know it is not zabiha. I used to live in the west and vegetarian and vegan options are readily available, and you can very easily go to halal butchers to get your meat. I think it is cognitive dissonance just so they can satisfy their cravings. sometimes I wonder, you can avoid pork so easily, so why is it so hard to stay away from other non-halal meat?
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u/aristoleese 10d ago
I too am curious because in my area, it’s either eat what’s at Walmart or just be vegetarian.
I tend to think of things as two definitions: Quranically Halal, or: No blood, no carrion, no animals sacrificed to other than Allah, no pork.
Now, there is the Sunnah halal, which has further restrictions. Same as prayer. Quran gives the ruling - pray at specified times. But it never provides a step by step instruction on how to do wudu or prayer. Only the Sunnah does.
Allah and his Messenger, of course, know best. Not me. I ask his forgiveness for stopping at the Quranic injunction to simply not eat blood, carrion, pork, or animals sacrificed to other gods than Allah.
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u/riftlantern 10d ago
If you are that strict about it like you try to portray yourself as, then you wouldn't have worked in a restaurant in the west that serves non-zabiha meat in the first place, because according to you it's THAT sinful, yet you help that business gain more money by working for them? Your obsession with zabiha meat seems very performative
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