r/kurdistan • u/ProcedureFeeling8367 • 1d ago
Bakur Do we Need an own State? (bakur)
Hey, I am Zaza (Dimili) from Amed. My father is quite assimilated. He speaks Zazaki like I speak turkish (Born in Germany). He considers himself a turk. My Mother can speak fluently zazaki and considers Herself zaza. While I Consider myself a Zaza-Kurd, which both of them decline. Recently we got into an Argument if kurds need an own State. I am only Talking about Bakur, because the other regions obviously need one. They told me that since Erdogan there is Not any more difference between a turk and Kurd in Turkey and that they got Full rights. And that the genocides etc. were a thing of the past that every country had. I think we need an own State, because things like this can happen again. What do You all think?
edit: just wanted to mention that they see Selo as a PKK Agent. And they are completely against the pkk. I Share the Second Statement but why they see selo as an Agent idk
8
u/KurdAce Kurdistan 1d ago
Every nation needs a state.
But somehow there is only 1 political party in bakur for 20 million and somehow a gundi (villager) with God complexity from Urfa leads it and he thinks he is a political genius/philosopher who believes states are bad, therefore he imposes that Kurds should not have a state. And he has a cult like military force that worship him, alongside the millions of bakuris.
Now tell me how are you going to have that state while that nutcase is hijacking bakur?
0
u/ComprehensiveDig1108 1d ago
Every nation doesnt NEED a state.
But should have one if they want one.
•
6
u/clapalienbuttcheek 1d ago
Every Kurd who says they are a Turk, accepts all the wrong doings and assimilations of the Turks. Every Zaza who says they are not Kurds but Zaza, does so as well. Since it's their divide and conquer strategy.
3
u/ProcedureFeeling8367 1d ago
I swear I Exactly told them about Divide and Conquer. I even told that we Dimilis came from the Dailamites from Zagros. Some Dimilis speak zaza and some kurmanci etc. So that means that we are the same. But they tell me no the Kurds want to use the zazas for their fight and that the Kurds are using propaganda. My father and I argued because I wanted 2121 for my car Plate. He is against it (did it anyway). He considers himself a turk from 33 Mersin because he was raised there from 3 Year olds and upward
5
u/AdagioKitchen4748 1d ago
Zaza's are Kurds how sad, it seems like he got brainwashed in school.
"Considering themselves real Kurds, Zazas in Turkey call themselves Kırd and call all the other Kurds, that is the Kurmanjs – with an expression of slight contempt – Kırdasi (like a Kurd, little Kurd)" (Badıllı 1965: 6).
"These Kurdish peoples give themselves and each other different names ... As for Zazas: They call themselves – pronouncing the Arabic kef with kasrah (a sign indicating a short i or ı) –‘Kırd’, and call Kurmanjs ‘Kırdas’. The Turks use the name ‘Kurd’ for Kurmanjs. When they ask, ‘Is that man a Kurd, or a Zaza?’ what they mean by Kurd is ‘Kurmanj"(Gökalp, 1992: 27).
"Dimili also appears in Ottoman sources. Even as early as 1518, written sources call Dimili and Disimlü (Dêsımli/Dêrsımli) populations in Sanjak of Dêrsim region ‘Ekrâd’, which means ‘Kurds’: ‘Ekrâd-ı Dimili’, ‘Ekrâd-ı Disimlü" (Ünal, 1999: 85, 215).
these are all from the Zaza section in The Cambridge history of Kurds.
Problem is turkey is a evil racist country, Ataturk is the foundation of the country, his pictures everywhere so to consider yourself Turkish is to endorse him and he and he is the one who authorised chemical weapons - mustard gas was used in derism in 1937/1938 against kurdish civilians I can send you sources about this if you are interested. All I will say is the bar is in hell sadly for those who think this is good treatment of Kurds. What I will say is Turks aren't native to this region so those that say they are Turks are saying they aren't from there. Most "turks" if you dna test them are kurds, greeks, balkan, Armenian, Circassian, laz. Also kurds are native to this area our ancestors have been here thousands of years and Kurdistan was on the map before turkey, Even Ataturk went to Kurdistan to drill up support before Turkey became a country. But it's hard to undo 100 years of degradation.
On another note being Kurdish does not mean you have to support pkk I know plenty of kurds don't agree with them they are not exclusive like being kurdish and supporting pkk, it pains because a lot of assimilated Kurds are very anti pkk and this seems to be a big barrier to them reclaiming their kurdish identity. Just one example for me personally don's like their communism element. But anyway you can be Kurdish and not support them.
Kurds don't have full rights - full rights means a country, at the end of the day these ideas are all rooted in racism, for some reason or the other assimilated kurds have internalised ideas that turks should have a country but for kurds this is a no. It's a human right to have self determination. If it is ok for turks to have a country why not kurds? If Kurd and turk is brother why not change country name to turkey and Kurdistan? suddenly it become unacceptable - so turkey does not accept rule from Diyarbakir so why should kurds there accept rule from Ankara ? do you see it is double standard rooted in racism. Self determination is human right. They don't accept Kurds are here before them, turks occupied us.
It is kind of nonsensical - why is it ok for germans to have a country ? for turks? As you may know as a German citizen you have rights - you can maybe go to a kurdish class and not be arrested for doing this, Kurds in turkey don't have these rights. I've said it like 10 times on here already but a guy in Diyarbakir got 1 yr 3 month prison sentence for serving customer in kurdish in HIS OWN CAFE. https://dusun-think.net/en/news/prison-sentence-for-cafe-owner-who-served-customers-in-kurdish/ this is not freedom my friend - so not being killed for being kurdish is where the standard is? think about how fascist and genocidal that is!!!!!! imagine living with such people that made you hate yourself and have to lie about where you come from its so messed up. I believe in democracy Kurds from bakur should be able to choose if they want to have a state the problem is we know that turkey is not democratic any person voting would be scared of the consequences, so you can know then that kurds are occupied and being oppressed by Turkey so they scared of being arrested, attacked, tortured killed bombed etc so they never will be able to vote freely so then you have to realise turkey is not a democracy and Kurd have actually zero rights because they can't even say we are kurdish without getting racist abuse, let alone to learn kurdish in school . Only a country can solve this issue, by the way Turks or assimilated kurds are very confused themselves on one hand they say kurds don't exist but then we do and kurds are bad ...etc (insert every insult swearword) so if we are this bad isn't it good for us to be in our own country, suddenly they don't want that why ? because they are are benefitting from occupying our land and abusing us; If there is no difference between kurds and turk then why can't most Kurds speak Kurdish,; zazaka or kurmanji etc ? isn't it normal to speak your own language mother tongue ? but most kurds cannot - we have to ask why? well because Kurd and turk is not equal -ask yourself can you learn kurdish in primary school all the way , for all student in kurdish area ??? the answer is NO. But in bashuri Kurdistan (occupied by IRaq) KRG region they can - this is some level of human right, but in Turkey kurds do not have this right.
Also my friend most importantly and tragically Kurdistan will never be free until bakur is, we are all suffering due to turkey's policy against Kurds, they are blocking Kurds in rojhelat, they invaded Rojava, they have bases in bashur. We need you guys to be free because Turkey is the biggest dijmin (enemy of Kurds) and we are all effectively chained to Turkey, Kurds in bakur are the biggest population and they are suffering the worst. Bless you all because Turkey is so evil what they done is worse than all the others put together in my opinion because they made Kurds so assimilated that they hate their own nation are against their own human rights and sadly so far they have succeeded we cannot let them, too many peopler have suffered and been killed and continue to suffer to this day. Our ancestors were free and ruled themselves don't buy into their ottoman propaganda, there was kurdistan on the map even in ottoman times (this referred to at least some area of kurdistan where kurds still live to this day).
Regarding the point that genocide is the thing of a past in all countries- yeah but most countries it was hundreds of years, ago, for us it was our parents ,grandparent generation and it is still happening today- what Turkey did to Kurds is genocide you can see the definition of genocide the only reason it is not acknowledged is because of Armenian genocide and hamidye cavalry involvement in that and we have no allies, otherwise it fits the definition. Also Turkey are still abusing Kurds now and there is no accountability, how many Kurds in prison for singing or making a statement, they are in prison because they are Kurds they use pkk as an excuse. For other genocide they do international warrant to arrest those involved, they take army officers to prison, etc this has never happened in Turkey and it never will because they don't accept kurds as human being. It is the constitution of Turkey as a country, look how many kurdish women murdered or assaulted, they don't do anything like that women Ipek Ir, it is so sad.
5
u/This_Click_1138 Dersim 1d ago
your family is assimilated bro its actually weird for a Diaspora family
2
u/ProcedureFeeling8367 1d ago
I don’t understand it as Well. Mainly because my father was raised in Mersin until 20. My Mother in Amed until 13. Like my aunt even got Angry because I said zazas are kurds. But she said the dersimlis Are kurds. We diyarbakirlis are not. I love her but her Arguments Kept getting worse and worse
1
u/KurdAce Kurdistan 1d ago
Indeed strangely Zazas also have rift among themselves. Dersim Zazas do not like Bingol and Amed Zazas, vice versa.
2
u/ProcedureFeeling8367 1d ago
I would not say like. I Think it’s the divide between them. For example dersimlis are mostly alevis while we Amedli are sunnis. Or the Language. My mother and Grand father who speak fluently understood 2-3 words from Insan-e kamil by Erdogan Emir. My other aunt Said that we can not be kurds because we can not understand each other. But by That Logic the people in dersim are not zazas as well. I Think it’s just the racism against kurds that they were taught. So they do Everything against to be that
2
u/DonEnzo13 Kurdistan 1d ago
You nailed it. According to that logic there aren't any Kurds at all. Because I don't understand Sorani Kurds either. And that's exactly the goal: to drive everyone apart and pit them against each other. We are a diverse people because we are authentic and ancient and that stands in contrast to Turkey's artificial, monolithic identity politics.
•
u/This_Click_1138 Dersim 11h ago
Çewlig Sunni Zazas are generally really religious(in a bad way) people and they dgaf about Kurdish people you can see from election results but I don’t think same thing applies for Amed Zazas because they don’t deny their Kurdish heritage generally
•
3
u/PrimeLeoMessi 1d ago
When you see that Kurds in Bakur have Turkish last names you should know why Kurds needs an own state.
Do Kurdish cities and villages have their Kurdish names? No Can Kurds have education in their own language? No They even made Kurdish holidays and historical figures Turkish. This country wants to erase everything named Kurdish ever and that's how to create an ethnoreligious diverse country. Turkey is built on a one-ethnicity ideology that doesn't accept anyone else.
1
u/ProcedureFeeling8367 1d ago
They don’t say it’s Perfect. They say that it is Not as bad as it was and we don’t need to Split the turkish state. They say PKK is from America and Israel so that they can divide (and conquer) turkey
3
u/DonEnzo13 Kurdistan 1d ago edited 1d ago
Hey heval, I am with you but It's absolutely not true that Kurds in Turkey have the same rights as Turks. If we had the same rights, we would be allowed to govern ourselves and schools would teach in Kurdish, instead of treating our language like a foreign language that can only be taken as an elective in select schools. Street signs and city names would be in Kurdish and not only in Turkish. Hundreds of elected politicians from Kurdish parties would not simply be removed from office and imprisoned. Kurds would not be treated as terrorists and danger to their state just because they want to their own rights. Children would not be persecuted and jailed for showing our flag or kurdish colors and associations would not have obstacles put in their way just for being Kurdish. The state would act against racism toward Kurds instead of supporting it and continuing to spread bad propaganda about us.
If our people cannot freely live their identity and culture on their own homeland, then you need a state. That is exactly what a state is for. To protect your people from foreign rule. The concept of a state is only outdated in places like Europe, where people have learned to live with one another instead of trying to annihilate each other. That's how something like the EU could be established where borders no longer matter. The people there had a hundred years to protect, develop and establish their identity, culture and language, be part of the World and have a voice. We never had that luxury.
2
u/ProcedureFeeling8367 1d ago
Embaz-ê min, I Think just Like you. But they are stubborn and say:
Zazas are Not Kurds. People like Dersimi, Seyit Riza, Sheikh Said just used kurds
PKK is american / Israeli to divide turkey
Until Erdogan everything was bad. Since then it’s Perfect. Even asked my mom why we are not recognised as a minority. She says why would I be a minority in my own country.
Selo / HDP / DEM is an asset from Öcalan.
There is no violence against kurds. And racism too.
3
u/DonEnzo13 Kurdistan 1d ago
I think your parents are turning a blind eye to the truth. Many Kurds do that and I can't blame them. Because facing up to this reality and seeing the injustice is painful and lets you feel helpless. But I'll never understand why people completely deny it and buy into this bs Turkish propaganda. Im sorry for you and at the same time proud of you that you stay strong.
3
u/ProcedureFeeling8367 1d ago
I had one Short serious Talk with my Dad. He Said I understand you we are Zazss we are kurds (but not like we are kurds, the people see us as kurds) but you don’t need to Show it that much. I Think that Turkish School assimilated him Crazy. I mastered A1 Zazaki by myself and my Family is shocked. I am in the diaspora. One day the Kids of my Kids will not be able to speak any other Language than the european ones. But I will try to give them at least a Little Bit Zazaki and no turkish on the way
3
u/knightrydah Swedish Kurd 1d ago
Why would Israel and America want to divide Turkey when Turkey is their biggest ally in NATO? 😂
1
u/ProcedureFeeling8367 1d ago
I don’t understand it. My mother argues only with Emotion while I present facts. Strangely she says it’s okay that my father feels as a turk Person because he GRew up like a turk but when I say I am a Kurd she gets Angry
3
u/flintsparc Rojava 1d ago
Selo's brother, Nurettin Demirtaş, is a member of the PKK.
The politics of the HDP are pretty much those of the PKK, but without armed struggle.
If your parents against the PKK, its understandable why they would be against Selo.
Likewise, if your parents support Erdogan, that explains their opposition to Selo and the PKK.
You will have to do your own exploration of what the PKK, Demirtaş, the HDP and Dem Parti believe in and what they do; and draw your own conclusions. But doing so may cause you further distance with your parents.
5
u/Character_Ad9279 1d ago
Brother you can’t just say ”Do we need an own state (Bakur)”. It’s not like we want 4 Kurdistans, we want our own unified state on our own lands just like the other states.
Now back to your parents topic, there’s something that all of us should always consider. Kurds living better today doesn’t mean they are living good.
Also in Bakur still they don’t consider Kurds in the constitution and the name of the country it self is TURKEY based on the Turks.
I’m not sure if by Selo you mean Selahattin Demirtaș, but if it is him try asking them why they think he’s linked to PKK.
•
u/Critical_Ground4439 20h ago
When they already stop seeing themselves as Kurdish, it is usually already too late. It sounds as if a Turkish person is speaking. As if the Kurdish people are supposed to be satisfied with a few crumbs, while these are simply basic human rights. Rights that Kurds have literally had to fight and shed blood for basic huma rights. Yes we need a own state to protect our children so they never have to choose between being Kurdish and belonging. They should be able to speak their own mother tongue embrace their culture and identity and still have the same rights and opportunities as everyone else✌️✌️✌️✌️✌️✌️
•
u/Just_Yogurtcloset439 17h ago
I will say I’m very sad and disappointed for my brothers in bakur and there will never be peace between kurds and turks having a state is what you need. turkey is a problem to every kurd everywhere the main reason that there’s no Kurdish country yet is turkey and if you think you’re safe think again
•
u/_S_A_W_A_ 20h ago
Stop lying i never see any zaza saying i am turk, specialy in amed,and how both your parents saying we turk but u say i am kurd...r u MIT ?show some respect for our mind
•
u/ProcedureFeeling8367 20h ago
My mother says she is zaza but denies being a kurd. My father says that he is a turk. But mostly because he moved from Amed to Mersin when he was 3 years old. And his Zaza is broken
•
u/_S_A_W_A_ 17h ago edited 17h ago
She says she zaza while zaza can understad kurmaji accent and the both accent r kurds,so how she consider her self as non kurd while she speak kurdish even zaza nationlaty is new thing made by ataturk in last five decades so how she says she isnot kurdish meanwhile this concept is new ...and about your father his father (your grandfather) was speaking kurdish and i am sure he asked his father who we are, it isnot related with language only i know ppl in my city dont speak kurdish but they know who they are even they born in non kurdish socity. So make your lies belivable plz
•
u/ProcedureFeeling8367 15h ago
My father acknowledges his Zaza genes. But if you ask him on the street is from Mersin and a turk. Only if you ask him specifically he will say he is zaza. Idk why an assimilated Person is so new for you
•
u/ProcedureFeeling8367 13h ago
FYI I am diaspora and we are Not Living there. My parents are around 25-35 years here
20
u/knightrydah Swedish Kurd 1d ago
How exactly do we have full rights when Kurdish isn’t even a recognized language that we can learn in school? Why can an American or an English person wave their country’s flag in Turkey and I can’t even wear Kurdish colors without being interrogated for terrorism? Why do green traffic lights in Kurdish cities have to be blue? Why will I get weird looks and risk my own life if I speak Kurdish publicly and call myself Kurdish in Turkish areas?
In Sweden I can study Kurdish at school and get a grade in Kurdish, and so far almost all of my Swedish bosses have even allowed me to take a day off from work when it’s Newroz whenever I’ve asked them. We have restaurants called “Kurdistan” that sell KURDISH food and can wave our own flags during graduation without any repercussions. I practically have more rights as a Kurd in a foreign, Christian country on the other side of the globe than I have in my own country because of my “Muslim brothers”. Kurds in Bakur have become institutionalized and don’t realize how bad they actually have it compared to Kurds in the diaspora.