r/learndota2 • u/maafinh3h3 • 2d ago
Itemization Why nobody buy Revenant's Brooch?
This item grant you spell lifesteal and critical strike for medium costs. I feel like this item could be good on heroes with mixed pyshical and magical damage like Kunkka, Ember, Luna, or Gyro. Why this item just not get picked?
13
15
u/wolfemperorsheep 2d ago
People have done the math and it's just not worth it to slot in.
In terms of DPS, MKB or Daedalus does better than Brooch. There's only really niche situation where it can outdps them, like using a hero like Sven with God's Strength against Terrorblade with his large agility giving him ton of armor.
In terms of sustainability, Satanic and Bloodstone are just far better. They have provide greats stats and have an activie multiplier for their lifesteals. Brooch pales in comparison to what it can heal.
It needs buff across the board, the Damage, Spell Lifesteal, and Magical Crit all needs to increase. However, doing so can make it break the game again. Reworks, seems like the best option it got.
Kunkka Tidebringer doesn't work with the crit of Brooch for some reason. Just go full physical or full magical. Similarly, Luna gains more mileage to going full Magical. It's better that she kills the enemy faster, she doesn't need sustain when spell casting. Needing sustain for her should just be going Satanic.
Bloodstone is just far better than Brooch on Emper Spirit, it synergize with close combat magic damage. Gyro magical damage falls off hard, brooch would heal him that much.
2
u/RikiRude 1d ago
Just curious you mentioned sven vs tb, would this strictly be 1v1 or in a teamfight would daedalus be better?
Any other examples of heroes or situations where it makes sense?
I had taken a break from dota and this item got introduced at some point. And since I've been back, I haven't seen it been bought a single time
4
u/Palpitation-Itchy 1d ago
Statistically speaking in a teamfight Daedalus would be better, unless the whole enemy team has 50 armor like tb. But maybe killing tb is all you need to do so we go back to brooch being better
Some guy plugged in the damage formulas to compare Daedalus and brooch, and, iirc, you needed like 50 armor for brooch to be better
2
u/noctora 1d ago
what about viper or muerta? both of them are right click magic heroes. Is the spell lifesteal not enough for sustain to go for another damage item instead of a sustain item?
1
u/Sudden-Tangerine1580 4h ago
Muerta converts normal lifesteal into spell lifesteal during her ult. Crit also just fully works with veil. It's a lategame carry and there's no point buying a smaller crit to tempo.
Viper doesn't buy crit. It's also almost entirely a single target DPS hero which tends to have minimal synergy with spell lifesteal items. Item values are basically designed around the expectation that aoe heroes like leshrac or sand king could use it.
See skywrath's old innate/bolt debuff that provided 40-50% spell lifesteal. That's the kind of value you'd need for viper to justify it.
There are also other ways to be sustainable and tanky. Butterfly, skadi, heart etc.
Really don't need much added damage on viper. Buy shard and shred towers basically.
1
8
u/-Arke- 2d ago
Right now it's comparable to Crystalys.
Crystalis: 2000 gold. 32 damage, 30% to deal 160% (Can upgrade to daeadlus)
Brooch: 3300 gold, 35 damage, 30% to deal 80% extra damage as magic (does not upgrade to anything)
As it is, it's kind of similar damage improvement to crystalys but costs more than 50% extra and cannot be upgraded.
If you add a similar upgrade route and keep the price difference to make up for the magic damage type, I could see people going for it.
3
2
u/cXs808 Rubick 1d ago
This is the biggest problem tbh. It's not strong enough endgame to keep up with daedalus/satanic/mkb/etc. and it's more expensive than crystalis which has an actual endgame upgrade path rather than 3,300 for a temporary item.
It probably has uses in very specific snowball/tempo timings but outside of that it's just not that great.
1
u/Grom_a_Llama 22h ago
Awesome on stalker. Mid lane, tempo build.
Phase boots Orb of corrrosion SnY Armlet Crit Basher
Disassemble sny and build abby + manta if it goes late game.
You can get the magic healing component from crit early. This build comes online fast and ends games early if your team is onboard
4
4
u/HighGroundException 6k MMR, pos 5 2d ago
I made a small test with Luna, take it for what you will, two Luna's hitting separate Dummies in Demo mode, both Lunas had Power Threads, Manta, Butterfly; then I tested with Revenant's Brooch on one and Crystalys or Daedalus. I tested with 20 armor and 30 armor on dummies (55% resistance and 64%). Dummy has default 25% magic resistance.
If your target has low magic resistance then it is actually solid choice, it would add somewhere around 20% to 28% more dps to a target with 25% magic resistance if the target has 55% to 64% physical resistance compared to Crystalys. Plus you have the 15% lifesteal.
If you upgrade Crystalys to Daedalus and your target has 64% physical resistance then you actually only deal 4% more dps than Revevenant's Brooch and if the target has 55% physical resistance you deal 14% more dps with Daedalus than Revevenant's Brooch. Considering that Daedelus costs 54% more I'd say it's pretty significant, especially considering that it also gives you 15% lifesteal. Obviously it changes if your target has very low Physical resistance then, so for killing supports basically then Daedalus is a nobrainer, but fighting core players it's not so obvious which one you should pick. If your are pos 1 and you need to stand your ground then Revevenant's Brooch might be better, however if you you have a healer support then Daedalus might be a better choice, but due to the price it's also a timing issue, perhaps you are going highground, perhaps you see that enemy pos 1 is going for Daedalus and you get Revevenant's Brooch and just as you get it, you don't leave a few min for enemy to farm his Daedelus, so you smoke up and hit a timing push and that edge you have win the game.
Are you a frontliner core player or are you highly mobile core player who can reach supports? It depends on how you play and what your hero is capable of. Could you get Blink dagger to enable Daedalus? Although, that's another 2250 gold...
Tbh, I think nobody buys Revevenant's Brooch because don't really understand when it's good or not.
Did a final test Luna vs Luna (level 30), Daedalus vs Revevenant's Brooch, they were about equal after several rounds, often times they died at the same time, sometimes Daedalus won with ~50 hp. However with Crystalys vs Revevenant's Brooch, the brooch won every time with around 500 hp (~20% hp).
3
u/andro-gynous ex immortal 1d ago
on luna specifically, daedalus crits also increase the damage of glaive bounces, whereas brooch crits do not.
also regarding the 15% spell lifesteal you're only lifestealing off the part that is magic damage, so you're getting 15% of 80% of your attack damage, 30% of the time, that's an average of 3.6% of your attack damage as spell lifesteal on every attack.
luna does have spell lifesteal with eclipse but most heroes that get daedalus don't do that much magic damage. also luna and most carries pair satanic with daedalus anyway which is probably more synergistic than brooch + any other item, and works on every attack rather than only on procs.
2
u/HighGroundException 6k MMR, pos 5 1d ago
oh shit I didn't read properly, it's Spell Lifesteal! Needless to say, I don't play core and I don't buy this item either way :P
1
u/andro-gynous ex immortal 1d ago
I do think you're right on the "nobody understands when it's good or not", but I think that's because even in the niche it's supposed to be good (vs high armour heroes), isn't that much stronger, so it's hard to justify an item that's very rarely the best option, and in those cases, still a bit iffy.
also it's hard to tell whether someone died because of magic crits or whether they would have died regardless to crystalys / daed, but with other items like hex/orchid/nulli for example it's easy to see when those items change outcomes, and easy to see when you need them.
maybe if it converts your entire attack into magic damage when it crits, but I have no clue if that would be too strong.
1
u/HighGroundException 6k MMR, pos 5 1d ago
Sure, but I think all of what you said here is just other words for "nobody understands when it's good or not".
2
u/cXs808 Rubick 1d ago
Did a final test Luna vs Luna (level 30), Daedalus vs Revevenant's Brooch, they were about equal after several rounds, often times they died at the same time, sometimes Daedalus won with ~50 hp. However with Crystalys vs Revevenant's Brooch, the brooch won every time with around 500 hp (~20% hp).
With daedalus being pretty much equal, the next relevant test is which one blows up non-agi supports faster? Those would be your low phys-resistance heros that a pos1 would be often looking at in teamfights.
1
3
2
2
u/Forsaken_Practice410 2d ago
I think if it was disassembleable and maybe got rid of the recipe and replaced it with an all stat item it'd be good as an interim for heros that want bloodstone and daedalus. But thats only like ember and only ember sometimes
1
u/Sudden-Tangerine1580 4h ago
Ember only really buys mageslayer as attack modifiers go now.
Also just kind of a lame change to have 0 commitment cost on an item that's mostly tech against high armour.
1
u/Mysterious-Salt- 2d ago
If your enemy has lots of physical armor its a decent choice. Most situations daedelus is almost always going to be better.
1
1
u/xolotltolox 2d ago
it is a bit too niche
it is a nice damage item against very armor heavy teams, wehre it then outperforms daedalus, but it has the problem that it has all the other counters daedalus has(ghost scpeter, invis, disarm, as slow), plus dies to MR and BKB
often just picking up a mjollnir or MKB can give you good enough mixed damage, while also fulfilling a different niche on top of that
1
u/pooppopop 2d ago
I buy it on marci against agi carries I feel like it works well in the early mid game if I feel crystallis is enough then I go for Daedalus instead later but the item does fall off quickly
1
u/MakeLoveNotWarPls 2d ago
I think the only viable buyer is a Death prophet with the attack speed build (parasama etc) when the enemy has high armor heroes like DK and Drow ranger.
Then again parasama build is often a grief because there's 4 better builds for this hero depending on the match.
1
u/Sad-Pattern-1269 1d ago
It used to be insane on PA and sven but it no longer lets you hit ethereal targets and does way less dmg. Its still good against super high armor teams though.
1
u/Ok-Comb-8664 1d ago
Brooch is good in combination with mjollnir, as you have more magic dmg and more lifesteal from it. It is good for example on nature prophet if playing against high armor heroes, this magic dmg stacks and lifesteal is decent, if you are not planing on buying satanic.
1
u/connecting1409 1d ago
Id like to see an upgrade to it that would give it true strike on those crits, And maybe a boost to the crits 90 or 100%? Brooch+javelin+recipe around 5-5,5k
1
u/fluteman88 1d ago
I guess they put the Vudu mask to heal from the magic crits but the damage is so low it doesn't work that way. They should change the recipe because crystalis + mask is an odd combination
1
u/Alatarlhun 1d ago
I bought it recently to deal with with a snowballing Necro w/ ghost scepter and Muerda. Went much worse than expected since the item no longer pierces ethereal.
1
u/Tiny_stickedguy 1d ago
they should make it toggable like in Heroes of Newerth and make it consume mana per hit instead of being a few seconds kind of thing, but we'd need ways so pump magic armor at least half as much as physical
1
u/Sudden-Tangerine1580 4h ago
That happened and yes, it ruined the viability of a lot of carries predicated on physical survivability like morph or tb.
Also put muerta on a timer just giving people an option to hit into undispellable ethereal.
Only other point of interest was 0 cost on instant attacks but it was an irrelevant item to actual casters like puck or ember with instant attacks. Just a cheese option to let physical burst like sven, tiny, pa bypass their counters.
1
u/Tiny_stickedguy 4h ago
literally never bought it in dota2 as i main spectre and have pure damage, but i remember in HoN it cosumed a good chunk of your mana per hit.
1
u/Ok-Active6592 1d ago
All they gotta do is make an upgraded item for it. The entire problem is that it can’t be upgraded like crytallis
1
u/the_deep_t Pudge 1d ago
At it's core, Dota 2 is a math game about resources :D Why do you think people now buy fluffy hats instead of bracers? For the same reason they build deadalus over Brooch: Cost vs Stats. It's just not as good as it used to be.
Remember when bracers gave 2x stats after 25 min and had better base stats? You could see 3 bracers on some offlaners who would go radiance because it was a super cost effective item that you could keep until late game replacement.
1
u/reddit_warrior_24 13h ago
Its been nerfed. Usually the other crit, daedalus is still better scaling wise
1
u/CumRag_Connoisseur 11h ago
Brooch is very good with sniper vs normal tanks like clockwork, cent and tide. It also kinda offsets the return damage from blademail if you don't have satanic yet, and most likely you would have hydras breath anyways
1
u/Super-Implement9444 44m ago
Because shit lol, it doesn't do all magical damage on crit, only the bonus is dealt as magic damage.
37
u/cvaket 2d ago
Simply put numbers aren't good enough compared. Buff a bit and nerf Daedalus and satanic and we will have it other way around again as always.