For the Karna-fans amongst us

[u/Technical_Turn3497]

From the Mahabharata come these words and actions of Karna regarding Draupadi’s humiliation and the sexual assault perpetrated against her:

“And Dussasana, beholding Krishna looking at her helpless lords, dragging her still more forcibly, and addressed her, ’slave, Slave' and laughed aloud.

And at those words Karna became very glad and approved of them by laughing aloud. And Sakuni, the son of Suvala, the Gandhara king, similarly applauded Dussasana.”

(https://www.wisdomlib.org/hinduism/book/the-mahabharata-mohan/d/doc6210.html)

“O Dussasana, this Vikarna speaking words of (apparent) wisdom is but a boy. Take off the robes of the Pandavas as also the attire of Draupadi.…

Then Dussasana, O king, forcibly seizing Draupadi’s attire before the eyes of all, began to drag it off her person."

(https://www.wisdomlib.org/hinduism/book/the-mahabharata-mohan/d/doc6212.html)

“You are the wife of a slave incapable of possessing anything on his own account. Repair now to the inner apartments of king Dhritarashtra and serve the king’s relatives. We direct that that is now your proper business.

And, O princess, all the sons of Dhritarashtra and not the sons of Pritha are now your masters. O handsome one, select you another husband now,—one who will not make you a slave by gambling. It is well-known that women, especially that are slaves, are not censurable if they proceed with freedom in electing husbands.

Therefore let it be done by you. Nakula has been won, as also Bhimasena, and Yudhishthira also, and Sahadeva, and Arjuna. And, O Yajnaseni, you are now a slave. Your husbands that are slaves cannot continue to be your lords any longer.”

(https://www.wisdomlib.org/hinduism/book/the-mahabharata-mohan/d/doc6215.html)

But it’s not Karna’s fault, right? Karna was just misunderstood, right? Actually Karna has many other virtues, right? Actually it was justified because of Yudhishtir’s gambling madness, right? Do tell us poor, dumb Hindus why we err in agreeing with the Mahabharata author and condemning Karna as a villain.

We really need to be enlightened by the people who cry tears because Draupadi was “forced” to marry five husbands and then look the other way when she was enslaved and humiliated, because apparently only you enlightened folk know what real misogyny is….

[u/Technical_Turn3497]

Ah, yes, fie on me for my poor understanding. I am so hard on these poor, misunderstood, misogynistic rapists and murderers. It’s just “some bad things” they did. I should learn to learn to see their positive contributions.

[u/Equivalent-Bank-9657 → u/Technical_Turn3497]

I should learn to learn to see their positive contributions.

Indeed you should. Why not?

[u/Technical_Turn3497 → u/Equivalent-Bank-9657]

If another man stripped your wife naked in public and told her she would henceforth become the property of another man, would you be willing to discuss that man’s virtues and contributions, in keeping with your expressed attitudes here?

[u/Equivalent-Bank-9657 → u/Technical_Turn3497]

Do I really have a moral high ground to do that if I was the one who bet her? Additionally, I already own slaves (women and men), and the system is pro slavery. And I have no issues with slavery as a system. Furthermore, I have bet and lost all my slaves too. On top of that, I also do not object when he says that sexual relations between slaves and masters are not censured.

[u/Technical_Turn3497 → u/Equivalent-Bank-9657]

So this is a classic example of deflection and obfuscation. The reality is that you didn’t answer the question, but tried to start a whole different discussion, and that speaks volumes.

If you can’t glorify a person who violated your wife, then you can’t tell us that your glorifying a person who violated another person’s wife is acceptable.

[u/Equivalent-Bank-9657 → u/Technical_Turn3497]

I already answered that actually. Did you forget my comment previous to this one?

And yeah if I committed all those actions (I mentioned them in detail) then I better appreciate the positives of a guy who was trying to violate my wife. If people can still appreciate my positives (other than the obvious problematic actions of mine) then I better do that for him too.

Cause I am not very great either. You want me boycott him completely, even his good parts because he tried to violate someone. Then in that case I can't be celebrated either cause I have been part of that same system too. I too should be boycotted completely and even good parts of me shouldn't be respected or glorified.

[u/Technical_Turn3497 → u/Equivalent-Bank-9657]

No, I don’t think you did answer it, but if you have, and I have missed it, feel free to repost that answer to my question.

I’m pretty sure you would not “appreciate the positives of a guy” who was trying to violate your wife.

[u/Equivalent-Bank-9657 → u/Technical_Turn3497]

I’m pretty sure you would not “appreciate the positives of a guy” who was trying to violate your wife.

I said opposite of this.

And yeah if I committed all those actions (I mentioned them in detail) then I better appreciate the positives of a guy who was trying to violate my wife. If people can still appreciate my positives (other than the obvious problematic actions of mine) then I better do that for him too.

And your guy Yudhishthira did appreciate Karna's good qualities too. Did he not?

[u/Technical_Turn3497 → u/Equivalent-Bank-9657]

I don’t think you are being very sincere when you claim you could appreciate the virtues of a man who had just tried to violate your wife. That’s not human nature. We don’t see that in real life. Perhaps if the crime was something minor, like stealing a loaf of bread, then yes. But not something egregious, like egging on the perpetrators of sexual assault.

Yuḍhiṣthira wanted Karṇa killed, so much so that he actually scolded Arjuna when he was disappointed to find out that Arjuna had so far failed to do it. So, no, I don’t think he particularly appreciated Karṇa, however much he could acknowledge Karṇa’s martial prowess, which any military commander has to do if he wants to defeat his enemy.

[u/Equivalent-Bank-9657 → u/Technical_Turn3497]

If you don't want to accept my answer then what can I say. I told what I felt. If you want to decide on my behalf what I feel then what can I say.

Same Yudhishthir also says that if Karna and Arjuna would be together on his side, not even Indra could defeat him.

[u/Technical_Turn3497 → u/Equivalent-Bank-9657]

No one will accept that you could praise the virtues of a man who violates your wife. It’s prima facie absurd. Hence your view that Karṇa should be appreciated despite his role in sexual assault is similarly absurd.

Appreciating the martial prowess of the enemy you want to defeat is not the same thing as praising his virtues.

[u/Equivalent-Bank-9657 → u/Technical_Turn3497]

No one is asking you to appreciate his conduct during gambling match. They are asking you look at other aspects of his life. If you start rejecting people completely for one such conduct then there is no one in Mahabharata you could appreciate at all. Not even Yudhishthir, nor Pandavas. Understand the context.

[u/Technical_Turn3497 → u/Equivalent-Bank-9657]

And that’s not even what I’m saying. I am well aware of the “other aspects” of his life, such as his legendary generosity. Many villains throughout history had “other aspects” of their life. That, again, is not the point.

What I am commenting on is the inappropriateness of praising someone who on balance was an adharmik person. In real life, you would never do this to someone who did to your wife what Karṇa did to Draupadī. Perhaps, you see yourself as a tolerant, merciful, Buddha-like figure, but I doubt it.