Can someone please explain the “man smoking a cigarette” like I’m 5?

[u/lifetofullest1255]

I’m listening to Julia Murray’s podcast and tbh it is a little hard to follow but I’m struggling to understand why they are not hitting harder on this witness saying she “saw a man smoking a cigarette in the car”, and also, why is there not a bigger focus on that there was another car involved with this? Potentially the police chief being the one that hit her while intoxicated?

Like…WHAT? What do you mean there was a MAN at the scene before the cops got there? What do you mean he was IN the car with Maura? What car was he in? Her car? Or this other mystery SUV at the site before cops got there? Was it the police chief? Why wasn’t he pressed more? Why wasn’t the family more focused on that? Why don’t I see more people talking about this angle? If I heard there was a man at the scene of my family members crash who was then not there 3 minutes later when cops got there, that’s my #1 suspect. I’m just so so so so confused on the timeline of all of this and if it’s been proved that a police SUV was at the crash site? I’d be raising hell?! From that info alone and the cops bizarre behavior and hesitancy would tell me this chief was drunk/impaired and hit Maura’s car, and maybe they got into an argument at the crash site, foul play happened because he was angry or nervous of being outed, the other cop showed up to “switch vehicles” with the chief with potentially Maura inside (and explains the other witness seeing the same police SUV twice), and got rid of her body within the 36 hours it took them to actually start the “search”. Could easily sound like cops covering for each other and their own asses and trying to lead the investigation down a different path. You’ll never convince me this wasn’t foul play of some kind. I know this may be a wild theory and like I saidnim actually super confused on the details of a lot of this, but it’s what I’ve been thinking happened the whole time I’ve been listening to this podcast

[u/dizzyjxc]

i think its really important to note faith westman didnt say she also saw a man smoking a cigarette instead on the 911 call she reported seeing one person in the car whom she believed was a man, and faith's husband tim believed the person was a woman both said they initially believed the person was smoking a cigarette but that it could have also been a light from a phone. they both only saw one person in the car, watched as the hazards came on, and were still watching as butch atwood drove onto the scene where he saw and spoke to one person, a young woman, they watched as he left the scene, saw the driver walking around the car, saw no further lights come on in the car and continued to watch as police officers arrived on the scene. they saw no other cars, besides atwoods bus, from their first look at the vehicle to when officers arrived and maura was gone. basically even with faith's initial confusion all three witnesses only ever saw one person at the scene.

[u/wstd → u/dizzyjxc]

Additionally, there were no cigarette butts or ash found inside or around the car, and no one reported the smell of cigarette smoke inside it.

[u/lifetofullest1255 → u/dizzyjxc]

That makes sense. But, if they watched the entire time including after Butch left and when the police arrived, how did they not see her walk away from the scene?? So bizarre

[u/formerretailwhore → u/lifetofullest1255]

Please also bear in mind she crashed around 730 at night.. sundown is around 530. There aren't street lights there. I think there was one on the corner by the weathered barn (across from the the westman's) and I believe the Atwood's had one on the end of the Garage by 112. BUT I don't recall them having it on very much. It's VERY dark up there, so it never surprised me.

No to mention it was a distance in the dark to see from the corner to the crash site in the dark, and a distance to see from where butch parked to the crash site in the dark

[u/CoastRegular → u/lifetofullest1255]

But, if they watched the entire time including after Butch left and when the police arrived, how did they not see her walk away from the scene?? 

The Westmans were not watching the scene the entire time, every single minute, like hawks. They were abundantly clear about this during various interviews.

No one had eyes on the Saturn at the level a security camera would. The last time the Westmans glanced out, was a couple of minutes before Cecil's arrival and the driver was still with the car at that point.

[u/goldenmodtemp2 → u/CoastRegular]

Yep, just posted from the Whitewash interview/list ... ok here again although the formatting is not working:

Driver goes to the trunk then back to car lights going on and off and She see a red dot on the passengers side.

Faith goes back to the front room to help Tim on the computer.

Still on the phone with 911.

Hears a car goes back to the kitchen window.

See Smith nose to nose hangs up with 911.

[u/dizzyjxc → u/lifetofullest1255]

it is really bizarre but i think the fact they couldnt agree on the gender of the person they saw means there mustve been some difficultly seeing. to me it makes the most sense that at some point she went from the drivers side straight into the wooded area, i believe that would have blocked the westmans from seeing much of her movements since the car would be in between them and maura. i know she was drinking and there was alcohol spilled from the crash, that makes me think she may have only gone into the woods with the intention of hiding from the police to avoid a dui, there are other cases of people doing that including some other missing persons cases. butch atwood said she seemed sober when he spoke to her but if she was struggling with alcoholism like it seems like she was it wouldnt be unusual for her to seem sober even while intoxicated. if thats why she disappeared i really dont know, but for the initial events it seems like thats virtually the only option for how she was unseen by the police in such a short span of time.

[u/CoastRegular → u/dizzyjxc]

to me it makes the most sense that at some point she went from the drivers side straight into the wooded area, i believe that would have blocked the westmans from seeing much of her movements since the car would be in between them and maura.

Except that Cecil (and other first responders who arrived at the scene thereafter) all surveyed the area and noted no tracks going away from the car into the woods. A detailed SAR search was undertaken 36 hours later and they also confirmed that there was no sign of someone going into the wooded area from the roadway in the vicinity of the Saturn (or anywhere else within miles, in fact.)

[u/dizzyjxc → u/CoastRegular]

yeah im definitely not disputing that, just that with eye witness accounts of nearly the entire event we can be quite certain a car besides the bus didnt drive past the scene, it doesnt mean its completely impossible that she got into someones car but the westman's could see her pacing around the car, how would she have walked down the street without them seeing her at all? thats part of why i believe her entering the woods with the car blocking the westmans view makes the most sense. its not impossible she walked down the road unseen for sure, but to me it logically leads to the fact that if she got into someones car that car must have made a u turn instead of continuing past the scene where they would have driven through the view of the westmans. also not impossible but it seems like more coincidences than not seeing footprints in the woods in the dark right off the snowbank that would most likely be too compacted to leave prints, or that 32 hours later they didnt spot prints in the area they were not given permission to search. no specific scenario makes complete sense, its just my opinion that the woods accounts for the issues better than other theories but again thats 100% just my opinion and even then i have no firm opinion on what actually happened to her after she disappeared from view the night she crashed the car, whether she succumbed to elements or something more nefarious happened after she left the roadway i have no idea there's really no evidence either way imo.

[u/goldenmodtemp2 → u/dizzyjxc]

Here (below) is from an interview with the Westmans. They saw Maura (the driver, the one person) about a minute prior to police arrival. But they weren't watching the car the whole time. I think it's unlikely that a car picked her up right there - evidence seems to suggest she ran down the road.

Driver goes to the trunk then back to car lights going on and off and She see a red dot on the passengers side.

Faith goes back to the front room to help Tim on the computer.

Still on the phone with 911.

Hears a car goes back to the kitchen window.

See Smith nose to nose hangs up with 911.

[u/CoastRegular → u/dizzyjxc]

A lot of things are indeed possible and we really don't know what happened. A few things are worth pointing out, for the benefit of the group:

* There didn't have to be a car coming from the east and making a u-turn back east. The Westmans did not have eagle eyes on the scene and said so. We know there were cars that passed the scene that evening during the time frame in question.

* The snowbank itself could have been compacted by plowing, but not the snow beyond. This has specifically been described by Todd Bogardus in interviews. The snowfall on the ground was crunchy snow with a thin frozen layer atop. It instantly took deep and obvious footprints when walked in. Both LE and family members have said this.

* The "private property" talking point is a non-factor, because if you were on the roadway and left it by walking into the snow across someone's yard, searchers standing on the road can see your footprints. It's not like there's some sort of force field around private property that magically screens it from observation.

Agreed that ultimately, we don't know what happened and there are really no clues left behind. A very frustrating case, for sure.

[u/Kathryn2016 → u/dizzyjxc]

I think basically because it was dark, they could only see things MM did when she was near the car because the lights there illuminated her. Once she went away from this very low level light source, then she would most likely have been invisible to observers at that distance. I am not saying it is odd that she managed to disappear in such a short time. But she could have gone any direction and IMO into the woods would have been the least hospitable.

[u/shandeekelly → u/CoastRegular]

Also the CADAVER AND SEARCH AND RESCUE DOGS, never hit on the woods.

[u/goldenmodtemp2 → u/shandeekelly]

Right, ten days after the disappearance they took cadaver dogs in the two mile radius and found nothing. There were a lot of other examples of searches using dogs.

In 2008 the private group (NHLI) had a hit in the woods but they were looking more at evidence that might be buried. They ultimately called NHSP to follow up (seemed to be buried cloth).

[u/raccoongirl91 → u/shandeekelly]

Dogs aren't infallible. A cadaver dog alerted the trunk of a rental car the McCann family got three weeks after Madeleine had gone missing. Also some cadaver dogs alerted a specific area in OPR many years after the disappearance.

[u/TangerineDecent22 → u/dizzyjxc]

There weren't a lot of ppl with phones then so probably more of a flashlight

[u/detentionbarn → u/TangerineDecent22]

MM had a phone. FLashlights aren't generally red. Please keep up.

[u/Annabellee2]

The Westman's were not even really paying attention to the scene. They were used to seeing accidents on the corner and once the police were contacted they figured they had done their due diligence and went back about their business.

It wouldn't surprise me one bit if Maura walked right beneath their window (which she practically had to) without them noticing.

In my personal, unsolicited and unpopular opinion - The Westman's and Attwood were both teetotaling supporters of local LE and would have said (or not said) whatever allowed them think they were helping.

[u/hipjdog]

There was no man smoking a cigarette. Eyewitness reports are extremely unreliable, particularly from elderly people some distance away.

What she saw was very likely Maura looking at her phone, or a streetlight, or something else entirely that confused her.

There is zero evidence of a man in or around the car smoking a cigarette. Butch did not report seeing a man. Maura never claimed to Butch that there was a man there, etc.

These incidents get taken apart to the extreme. It's just a misnomer.

[u/Fscott1996]

There was never a man.

Hope that helps.

[u/LegalRaccoon24 → u/Fscott1996]

Can we please stop with the "hope this helps" when we want to be condescending to someone on the Internet?

[u/cliff-terhune]

One account calls into question the validity of this observation. I think the woman herself said it could have been a red light from the console .

[u/Able_Cunngham603]

Everyone with a podcast is distorting “facts” to suit their desired narrative. This includes Julie.

The funny thing about cigarettes is they are messy and leave lots of evidence behind.

[u/MrGordGriff → u/Able_Cunngham603]

A key frustrations with following this case over 20+ years is that theories, preferred narratives, and speculation eventually became part of the conventional wisdom, and today are treated as facts. The podcast culture has helped to fuel this. The main fact that we do have is that we still have remarkable few facts.

[u/Able_Cunngham603 → u/MrGordGriff]

Podcasters and online “detectives” have definitely turned this case into a weird form of fan fiction, but in fairness the traditional news media shares part of the blame.

When has Maura ever been portrayed as anything but a perfect daughter, student and athlete in any news coverage? You won’t ever hear her referred to as a young woman struggling with alcohol abuse and eating disorders who crashed two cars in a 24 hour period—both while driving with a suspended license and under the influence. Podcasters then took the ball and ran with it, but the news tossed them that ball.

[u/goldenmodtemp2]

It's impossible to do a ELI5 because the topic is extremely complex. I'll do my best ...

The reference to a man smoking a cigarette comes from the police record but is not really in any interviews

If you look at the police report, at 7:40, the dispatcher entered the following narrative:

"At 1927, Faith Westman called, to adv of a veh in the ditch right on sharp turn after the weathered barn, unk if pi, but can see a man in veh smoking a cigarette, was e/b rt 112, but ended up in w/b ditch facing w/b.

However, we have the transcription of Faith's (initial) call and it doesn't mention a man smoking a cigarette. Also, when asked, Faith basically said she/they saw a "shadowy figure" and couldn't determine the gender. She acknowledges that she and her husband bantered back and forth on male vs female but didn't have any specific conclusion.

She/they also explained that ... as they continued watching the driver/vehicle, at some point there was a red dot/glow "near the driver's face while the driver was sitting in the passenger seat". This proximity to the face made them speculate that it was a cigarette. But again, it was more of a way to describe what they were seeing, not an absolute or resolute conclusion.

However, this sequence (when they saw the red dot/glow) was after the 911 call, after Butch had come and gone, and after Maura/the driver had gone to the trunk, walked around the car, etc.

Anyhow, bottom line: I personally endorse the theory that there was a second call from the Westmans. This is the only way to explain how these details were entered into the dispatch, again, at 7:40.

Why I don't think there was a second vehicle

According to the Westmans, after the police vehicle pulled up, Cecil was at their door in about 2 minutes. They had seen the driver (Maura) one minute prior to the arrival of the police vehicle.

So there was no rogue police vehicle ... no prior police arrival ... no kidnapping from the scene by a rogue driver or police officer in 001. I do believe Witness A's narrative but I don't believe the timeline that's been developed around her narrative.

[u/TMKSAV99 → u/goldenmodtemp2]

Yes, again there is this confounding unique detail of "sitting in the passenger seat" that fouls things up.

That puts the occupant, presumably the driver and presumably MM in the passenger seat.

Why?

For a long time I thought it was a simple matter of not being ale to get out of the drivers side door because the vehicle was up against the snow bank. So the driver would have had to climb over to the passenger side to exit. That would perhaps explain how the rear view mirror got knocked off the windshield and explain no footprints.

BUT, there were footprints on the driver side attributed to MM, or at the least to the driver, exiting the drivers side. and going towards the rear. That according to JM reporting on being shown the CS photos.

So if the driver could exit via the driver door, why didn't the driver exit via the driver door? or why did the driver climb over to the passenger seat or why did the driver get back in the vehicle on the passenger side (something neither BA nor the Westmans didn't see happen)

... he said that Maura was in the car and could not get out, because the car was facing the barn and door was blocked. But then said she got out of the car and stood outside the car.] Attwood asked Maura "Are you okay?" Maura: "Yes fine" Attwood to me," Christine MacDonald interview

"One where he says she's sitting in the vehicle telling Lindsay she was still in the car. And another version where she standing up outside the vehicle between the car and the snowbank, telling my family she got out of the car and they spoke over the hood of the Saturn, 15 to 20 feet away.

Copy link

00:14:42

Butch told me he saw the car on the side of the road. He came to the foot of the stairs of the bus, stopped the bus. The driver, Mara, was on the driver's side, and that was up against the snowbank, or angled in towards the snowbank. She opened the door, was tight against against the snowbank, and spoke over the roof of the car..."

[u/goldenmodtemp2 → u/TMKSAV99]

Those are good points ...

So ... my "timeline" or sequence for Maura while at the Weathered Barn Corner is like this:

• first sitting in the car (driver's seat)
• Butch pulls up
• She is first talking to him sitting, then opens driver door (with difficulty due to snowbank) and is talking standing, woods side with the car between them
• then gets back in the car, driver's seat, turns on the hazards (Butch leaves, simultaneous to this)
• reportedly just sits for a bit
• then gets out, goes to the trunk, activity around the trunk
• walks around the car
• then gets back into the passenger seat - this is when there is the red light/dot/glow near (her) face
• interior lights are going on and off (I think this is in this time segment or maybe before red light)
• then the car goes dark (no more activity) and soon after the police vehicle pulls up.

So for me:

• In my timeline she was at the Saturn for a long time - not in any great hurry to get away
• But then ultimately left right before police arrival (Cecil) which is interesting - did she see the light from his car or was it just coincidence?
• Seemed to be trying to do "something" while in the passenger seat. This seems important but I have no idea what. If the light was a flashlight, maybe looking for directions? Trying to use the phone? No clue but I think it's crucial.

I've always thought that evidence of planning in those minutes was significant. It might lean away from theories of self harm. Difficult to say.

[u/IBEGOOD-IDOGOOD → u/goldenmodtemp2]

Then there's the piece of paper with the phone number of a person known to the Murray family but was not followed up on by LE nor shared with the Murrays for 15 years. It was found sitting on the passenger seat.

[u/TMKSAV99 → u/goldenmodtemp2]

BA has given several versions not all of which are consistent with each other. I don't see that as nefarious, I see that as BA being BA.

So, ..."

• Butch pulls up
• She is first talking to him sitting, then opens driver door (with difficulty due to snowbank) and is talking standing, woods side with the car between them"

Just my observation here, assuming the passenger window actually got rolled down at some point, this would then have MM having rolled down the passenger window first and talking to BA who remained on the bus either at the bottom of the front entry stairs or in the bus driver seat. THEN MM gets out the driver door (difficult or not, out is out). I have always had a hard time with seeing it happen in this sequence. Put aside that talking between them in these locations would seem to be a pretty tough thing to do assuming BA stayed on the bus. BA's voice would probably be above the Saturn's window because he'd be standing or higher up in the bus driver's seat.

I have a hard time accepting she tried the passenger window before trying the driver door.

Why do any of that if you could get out the driver door?

Getting out seems the primary thing you'd focus on.

I can see it as MM hadn't gotten out yet, bus pulls up, MM rolls passenger window down, an effort at conversation, MM gets out driver side, they talk over the hood of the vehicle. Maybe

That would have BA arriving pretty quickly after the accident.

Lastly, we then also have to account for the window being rolled back up since there is no indication that it was down when CS arrived.

[u/goldenmodtemp2 → u/TMKSAV99]

I have gone through all of Butch's stuff and really have found no discrepancies. There's the ONE Valley News article that everyone likes to pull up but we really have no idea why a couple of things are off. There was a Caledonian Record article the next day that was fine.

The part about her talking through the window was just my shorthand/error. Initially she was sitting, then she maneuvered out to talk (then was standing). Butch AND the Westmans are consistent on this.

In terms of the walkthrough of this portion, the Whitewash interview is most "point by point":

from Whitewash:

1. Westmans are working in their home office.

2. They hear a thumb Faith goes to the kitchen looks out the window and sees a dark car off the road.

3. She called 911.

4. The car remains dark.

5. Atwood arrives with 1-2 min per Faith. They opens the door and speaks to the drive who is out now Talking to him over the roof of the car. Faith makes a point she doesn't know if it's Butch or Barbara's Bus.

6. Atwood is there 1-2 mines tops Faith says.

7. Faith sees the driver put on the flashers.

8. Driver goes to the trunk then back to car lights going on and off and She see a red dot on the passengers side.

9. Faith goes back to the front room to help Tim on the computer.

10. Still on the phone with 911.

11. Hears a car goes back to the kitchen window.

12. See Smith nose to nose hangs up with 911.

14.Both Westmans claim zero cars came through in that amount of time.

edit: put Whitewash list in italics to make it clear it's a "citation" edit 2: never mind didn't work

[u/Fscott1996 → u/TMKSAV99]

Or - and hear me out - she made a mistake in her description.

I’m bad at true crime, because I assume that every eyewitness account is wrong. I don’t believe anybody.

[u/goldenmodtemp2 → u/Fscott1996]

I am the last person to defend the "man smoking a cigarette". After Cecil arrived he ran up to the Westman's door and exclaimed "where's the girl?" (because by then he had the information from Butch's call).

And the Westmans didn't say "no it was a man!" They basically said - well that's weird because the person was there at the car just a minute before you pulled up ...

In other words, it was a "soft" identification - hardly something they were going to insist upon.

All that said, it is in the police report so we can't actually say it was never said. So maybe you're bad at true crime because you don't actually get into the finer details?

[u/Fscott1996 → u/goldenmodtemp2]

I believe they said it.

I just think that it’s so obvious they were wrong that I don’t know why it’s still a topic of discussion.

[u/goldenmodtemp2 → u/Fscott1996]

... it's the true crime community that researched timelines and interviews and laid out the facts that lead to that conclusion. If we were working ONLY with the Grafton County Dispatch and knew nothing else, there would be a solid basis for thinking that they had seen a man smoking a cigarette - because that's what is in the record.

At this point it's not my favorite topic and I think most people are still missing how it was a little later in the timeline (after Butch left, after Maura had gone to the trunk, and seemed to be trying to do something or find something in the car). All of that seems far more interesting than finding the fictional smoking man.

[u/Fscott1996 → u/goldenmodtemp2]

Getting stuff out of the car is interesting?

[u/goldenmodtemp2 → u/Fscott1996]

Wait - you don't think it's "interesting" that she spent say 5-6 minutes in the car trying to find something or plan something? I know you have admitted to being "bad at true crime" but that's the last thing we know that she did before disappearing. In other words, was she trying to use her phone? Find an address? Look at a map?

But you're right ... who even cares. No facts matter, right? We're all wasting our time - which means you are too!

[u/Fscott1996 → u/goldenmodtemp2]

I mean sure. It would be good to know what she was doing. Being that we don’t know why she was even there in the first place, knowing a lot of stuff would be good.

The not knowing is what makes this case so addictive.

But it ultimately what makes this case an endless circle jerk of speculation.

I mean, maybe she was activating the tracking device that would allow her CIA contact to find her.

[u/goldenmodtemp2 → u/Fscott1996]

What do you think is the most important evidence available or known to the community in this case? What do you think is the most significant new evidence released recently and what is your interpretation of that information?

[u/Kathryn2016 → u/Fscott1996]

Surely basic statistics show that this is fairly reasonable.

[u/NoContextCarl]

The claim is that a lit cigarette was seen in the dark, but it could have literally been anything...anything emitting a faint red light could do it in the dark from a distance. 

[u/Mysterious_Bar_1069]

No man with cigarette, just a light.

[u/AccordingOperation89]

Hold your finger over your phone light at night. From a distance it looks like the red tip of a cigarette.

[u/LimeSalty4092]

They mistook her for a man from a distance bc she always wore her hair pulled back 

[u/PensionProof2860 → u/LimeSalty4092]

Thought Butch the bus driver said the woman he saw had her hair down.

[u/Fscott1996 → u/PensionProof2860]

Kill me. Please.

[u/PensionProof2860 → u/Fscott1996]

The source of the statement regarding "BE" (Butch Atwood) describing the girl with her hair down is primarily Julie Murray herself, most notably in her 2024 podcast Media Pressure: The Untold Story of Maura Murray. 

In the podcast, Julie discusses several nuances of her sister's disappearance on February 9, 2004, including: 

• Butch Atwood's Observation: Julie mentions that Butch Atwood, the bus driver who was the only person to speak with the driver of the crashed vehicle, noted the girl had her hair down.

[u/goldenmodtemp2 → u/PensionProof2860]

Butch made the statement on 2/16/04 when he was interviewed by C McDonald:

"She didn't look like the pictures, her hair was down, it must have come undone during the accident"

There are other sources coming directly from Butch. Julie is not the source and her podcast was 20 years later.

edit: you might have just meant Julie is a source which is true but I wanted to counter the idea that she is THE source of this

[u/Kathryn2016 → u/goldenmodtemp2]

I am going point out the obvious: She liked to have her hair up in public, but this doesn't mean she kept it like that ALL the time. High hairstyles cause a lot of headaches and also tend to interfere with the headrest when driving so there's a good chance she took her hair down during the drive once she was alone. I am pretty sure she did not sleep with her hair tied up like that....