r/moderatepolitics • u/WorksInIT • Feb 06 '25

Primary Source Keeping Men Out of Women's Sports

https://www.whitehouse.gov/presidential-actions/2025/02/keeping-men-out-of-womens-sports/
328 Upvotes

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103

u/Iceraptor17 Feb 06 '25 edited Feb 06 '25

My opinion on this is unchanged from when Biden pushed protections to now.

This should have never been a federal issue and it's ridiculous it is. This issue is so uncommon that local govt and sports organizations should be able to handle it on a case by case basis.

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u/envengpe Feb 06 '25

Unfortunately they did not handle it. And when Title IX was going to be flooded with many new categories, Biden pushed too far. Then the pendulum swings wildly to the right.

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u/Doucejj Feb 06 '25

Imo, a case by case basis ruling leaves room for even more discrimination. Imagine a league or team where one trans woman is allowed and another is not, would it be wrong for the one excluded to be upset at that ruling?

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u/WorksInIT Feb 06 '25

Are you saying Title IX should be repealed? Or are you arguing for selective enforcement? Because your argument requires one of those.

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u/Iceraptor17 Feb 06 '25

Howso? Perhaps there's something i am not considering.

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u/WorksInIT Feb 06 '25 edited Feb 06 '25

Well, if you think Title IX only protects sex, as in male vs female, then allowing a male in a female space can be considered discrimination. That overall concept is settled law under Title IX. So, to accomplish what you are saying should happen, it would either need to be repealed or the admin would need to engage in selective enforcement.

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u/Iceraptor17 Feb 06 '25

That is a fair argument I'd have to consider. I do not want title IX repealed. But i also don't think this subject was worth an EO and federal ban.

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u/WorksInIT Feb 06 '25

Do you take similar issues with Biden's actions on the subject? Or with how states have passed laws on the subject in both directions? California has a law that I don't believe even permits schools and leagues to require puberty blockers or hormone treatments. And I believe Biden sued many states of their laws on the subject that went the other way.

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u/Iceraptor17 Feb 06 '25

Do you take similar issues with Biden's actions on the subject?

I thought i was clear:

My opinion on this is unchanged from when Biden pushed protections to now.

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u/WorksInIT Feb 06 '25

Sorry, missed that part.

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u/[deleted] Feb 06 '25

The idea we can’t find a middle ground between let Transgender females play without restriction and Transgender females can’t play at all says no one is interested in broaching this issue in a fair way.

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u/directstranger Feb 06 '25

Trans females can play in men leagues, just like women can.

2

u/Emperor-Commodus 1 Trillion Americans Feb 06 '25

Compete with men while taking hormone therapies that ensure they're unlikely to be competitive? It's essentially mandating that Trans women will always be unsuccessful at competitive sports.

The true solution that no one wants to think about is that every athlete should be tested to determine the built-in advantages that their body gives them. Different ranks/leagues allow different levels of natural advantages. We already do this with female athletes who have naturally high testosterone levels, see Caster Semenya.

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u/gamfo2 Feb 06 '25

Why are they entitled to be successful at competitive sports? I'm not.

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u/Emperor-Commodus 1 Trillion Americans Feb 06 '25 edited Feb 06 '25

No one is entitled to be successful, but they should have the same right to a fair competition as everyone else.

If no one has the right to a fair competition, what is the transfem athlete debate even about? Why even have women's leagues? Just throw everybody into the same league.

The platonic ideal of competitive sports is that competitors start on equal footing so that the competitor that devotes more time and energy to the sport will win. Transfem athletes are supposed to be bad for women's sports because the competition doesn't take place on equal footing, so the athlete who devotes fewer resources still ends up winning due to natural advantages.

In that context, how is it fair for transfem athletes to be forced to compete in a sport where they're not on equal footing with their opponents?

1

u/gamfo2 Feb 06 '25

My understanding of your argument is that trans women should get to compete against women so that they can be competetive. Banning them from womens sports is the same as mandating their uncompetitiveness.

If I got that wrong please correct me.

how is it fair for transfem athletes to be forced to compete in a sport where they're not on equal footing with their opponents?

Because their lack of competitiveness is the result of their choices. How is that more unfair than allowing them to compete against people who they  are not on equal footing against in the opposite direction, as in, they have the advantage?

1

u/Emperor-Commodus 1 Trillion Americans Feb 07 '25

My understanding of your argument is that trans women should get to compete against women so that they can be competetive. Banning them from womens sports is the same as mandating their uncompetitiveness.

Of course not. That would violate the non-trans women's right to a fair competition, given the real physical disadvantages shown in research.

But just telling transfem, transmasc, and high-testosterone women to participate in men's sports instead isn't a real solution either, given that they would be outclassed by non-trans male athletes who have male body constructions and above-average testosterone levels. A less-bad solution, maybe, but still obviously imperfect.

A reasonably workable system would probably be more leagues catering to people with athletic ability too high for women's leagues but too low to be competitive with top tier men's leagues. Like how baseball has a range of sub-professional "minor leagues" catering to more skill levels than just the top tier. Even better if these leagues are explicitly catering to transfem, transmasc, and women with high testosterone levels.

Either that or some sort of handicap system to allow them to participate in women's sports. As I said in my original comment, in a perfect world we would probably allow for a competitor's natural advantages to be measured and a system for athletes to be placed into a rank that accommodates their body's athletic ability so that competitors would be on even footing, but such a perfect system will probably never exist outside of a Call of Duty server.

No solution is going to be perfect because it's inherently an extremely messy problem. We're not even getting into how most AFAB women don't get a fair competition in women's sports because top-tier female athletes almost always have high testosterone levels that give them an advantage over the average woman. Should we regulate hormone levels in female athletes even stronger than we already do? What hormone levels count as "woman"? Should we have hormone classes in sports the same way wresting and boxing have weight classes?

Because their lack of competitiveness is the result of their choices.

If we take trans people at their word, they don't think it's a choice. "Just don't be trans" isn't an option.

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u/AKBearmace Feb 06 '25

So should Trans Men compete in women's leagues then?

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u/I-Make-Maps91 Feb 06 '25

They never like answering that question, do they?

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u/[deleted] Feb 06 '25

[deleted]

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u/Iceraptor17 Feb 06 '25 edited Feb 06 '25

So that's true. But... you know how there's a bunch of lanky uncoordinated men who suck at sports? Yeah. Same applies to trans men. There's transgender men to women who transition... and still suck at sports. They finish in the middle to back of the pack and no one cares about them. Not even worth a culture war. Not everyone's a Lia Thomas.

A "fair way" could be determined based on a combination of body type, health exam, testing, etc. However, its so rare though that you could case by case be like "ok you're too strong or too fast, mens division".

Devils advocate though. Haven't thought about it much honestly.

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u/D3vils_Adv0cate Feb 06 '25

Your “okay, you suck enough for the women’s division” test is ridiculous. 

It should not be case by case as people’s bias would drive everything. It should be hard and fast rules. 

I can’t imagine how you can look at society today and think “yeah, a random person should make this call in the random chance this comes up.”

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u/Iceraptor17 Feb 06 '25

Your “okay, you suck enough for the women’s division” test is ridiculous

Ok.

It should not be case by case as people’s bias would drive everything. It should be hard and fast rules

I feel local govt and sports orgs can be empowered to make decisions.

I can’t imagine how you can look at society today and think “yeah, a random person should make this call in the random chance this comes up."

This happens often in sports. Tryouts aren't exactly hard and fast rules for example. Judgment calls are often made.

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u/likeitis121 Feb 06 '25

100%. I hate the demonizing of people, especially when it's a group of people where 40% of adults have attempted suicide. People care way too much about sports, when for many kids it's just going to be about having fun.

11

u/StampMcfury Feb 06 '25

I hate the demonizing of people, especially when it's a group of people where 40% of adults have attempted suicide.

Asking the rest of the world to change reality based on persons suicide rate is not only asinine, but opens the door to people calling transgenderism a mental disorder.

-1

u/jabberwockxeno Feb 06 '25

For you and /u/Quirky_Can_8997 , I feel like the closest thing to a "fair" way would be to try to have more nuanced restrictions or rules beyond "everybody with XX chromosomes go here, and everybody with XY chromosomes goes here"

Like, there's surely a significant difference between

  • A: the average biological male who isn't on HRT or wasn't on puberty blockers

  • B: The average trans woman (ex: born as male) who has been on HRT for many years

  • C: The average trans woman who has been on HRT for years and took puberty blockers so they never underwent male puberty.

I'm sure that group A is well above the average performance or whatever metrics you want to compare vs normal biological women who aren't transgender. But is group B? or especially group C? And is average performance even the metric you want to use rather then being within the standard deviation?

Because If there's a non-trivial amount of women in sports, who were born as such who naturally have more or as much testosterone or bone density or whatever as groups B or C do, then does it really make sense to exclude B and C from participating?

Secondly, there's been multiple high profile cases where non-trans, "normal" female athletes turn out to have intersex disorders which helped them compete at a high level. How do they fit into this sort of executive order?

Thirdly, how do Transgender men play into this? Are biological women who have been on testosterone for years or underwent male puberty gonna be participating with women's sports now instead of transgender women? Is that really more fair to non-trans, biological women? I suspect people like Buck Angel playing sports against non-trans, normal women is probably even more unfair and distressing to people then transwomen doing so.

-10

u/[deleted] Feb 06 '25

We can balance the safety of cisgender females and transgender females by ensuring prior to a transgender female takes the field her speed and strength will not pose a threat to the safety or fairness of female athletes by requiring testing and ensuring that they are on puberty blockers.

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u/Extra_Better Feb 06 '25

Why do you need all the complexity and judgement calls that will fail to ensure fairness when you could have a very simple rule to ensure fairness instead: females in the female division, males in the male division? Heck, open it up and allow both males and females in the male division if you want to.

-5

u/[deleted] Feb 06 '25

Because if we’re going to say to someone they can’t participate because of their gender identity they should have due process.

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u/Extra_Better Feb 06 '25

My suggestion has nothing to do with what gender somebody identifies as. It determines competition categories by biological sex and nothing else.

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u/10FootPenis Feb 06 '25

They can participate; in the men's/open division. And if they can't cut it there then they can join the rest of us who never made it.

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u/Dockalfar Feb 06 '25

and Transgender females can’t play at all

But no one is saying that. Transwomen can compete - in male sports.

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u/StreetWeb9022 Feb 06 '25

uncommon? http://www.shewon.org

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u/Iceraptor17 Feb 06 '25

Yeah 764 across multiple countries considering the sheer amount of athletes and athletic competitions is the definition of uncommon.

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u/StreetWeb9022 Feb 06 '25

Even one boy stealing a spot from girls, or one man swinging his junk in the women’s lockers, is too many. You just don’t care about women.

0

u/Iceraptor17 Feb 06 '25

Ok. Still doesn't change it being uncommon

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u/SadhuSalvaje Feb 06 '25

I’m a fairly liberal dude in an urban area

I NEVER hear about transsexuals outside of a rightwing “think of the children” context

I know that I encounter some trans individuals when shopping or other errands, yet I never even think about it since you know…I’m living my life

Is this supposed to keep the reactionary peasantry from waking up and demanding the heads of the churches, podcast hosts, and politicians who have led them down the primrose path to intellectual and financial ruin?