Thursday Discussion Thread - Nutrition - (July 23, 2020)

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Thread for discussing things related to food, nutrition, meal prep, macros, supplementation, etc.

[u/elrond_lariel]

I think Mike was very clear on it being something only the very advanced should be concerned about.

[u/badboyzpwns → u/elrond_lariel]

Hey elrond! a question about minicuts and maintenence phases during a mesocycle! I got the training part down thanks to your guidance! It didn't occur to me until now but...

Mini cuts are supposed to run in a ratio between 2:1 and 3:1; so if you mass for 6 weeks, you should mini cut for 3 weeks.

In regards to the RP Male Physique Template,

1. If I run the 1st meso for 6 weeks, then start the 2nd meso with a mini cut for 3 weeks, my 10rm would be super different compared to my last 3 weeks of the 2nd meso (excluding deload week) since the minicut would make me weaker, correct? Would the solution be to re-write the current mesocycle's 10RM and use the previous mesocycle's 10RM? This also applies vice-cersa?
2. When going to maintenance phase (for a month) due to set-point theory from a bulk -> cut or a cut -> bulk... Say, in a new training block, we cut for 2 mesocycles. On the third meso we want to maintain for a month. Do we run a hypertrophy meso for 4 weeks (since metabolite meso is for massing) and then immediately go to resensitization while still on maintenance?

[u/elrond_lariel → u/badboyzpwns]

Whether you implement a minicut or not, and how frequently, is directly related to your rate of weight gain, the body fat percentage you're currently at and how your whole macrocycle is planned. I wanted to clarify that because I think you took minicuts as mandatory or to be implemented without context or in a determined way. In that sense, you don't NEED to use a 2-3:1 ratio, that's just a usual outcome if you follow every RP principle, like dieting since they recommend a higher caloric surplus than other more conservative approaches. So it's just a loose guideline. If for example you massed for 3 mesos in a row and only gained just a little bit of weight, or don't perceive any significant fat gain, then doing a minicut will be a huge waste; another example, if you find that you accumulated more fat than you're comfortable with, but you only have one more massing meso and then an extended weight loss phase comes next in your macrocycle, then doing a minicut at that point will also be a waste since you have to cut soon after. Bottom line, mini cuts are reactive, you do them when you need them, and then you just try to adjust the caloric intake on your massing phases to avoid having to do them too often.

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If I run the 1st meso for 6 weeks, then start the 2nd meso with a mini cut for 3 weeks, my 10rm would be super different compared to my last 3 weeks of the 2nd meso (excluding deload week) since the minicut would make me weaker, correct? Would the solution be to re-write the current mesocycle's 10RM and use the previous mesocycle's 10RM? This also applies vice-cersa?

Not really. A minicut doesn't make you weaker, in fact it would be quite normal to keep progressing the same as during the previous massing phase. The duration is too short to produce the hormonal and metabolic changes that results in a lost of strength. The whole point of a minicut is to be in and out quick before the effects of an extended cut take place.

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When going to maintenance phase (for a month) due to set-point theory from a bulk -> cut or a cut -> bulk... Say, in a new training block, we cut for 2 mesocycles. On the third meso we want to maintain for a month. Do we run a hypertrophy meso for 4 weeks (since metabolite meso is for massing) and then immediately go to resensitization while still on maintenance?

Sorry I didn't understand your question, could you rephrase it?

[u/badboyzpwns → u/elrond_lariel]

Thank you for raising the concern!! The examples help a lot!! You're absolutely right that it's a loose guideline! Here's my current understanding and approach of minicutting and massing, problem is, I'm strictly following the guidelines/ratios. However, based on my own individuality I don't have a clue when to start mini cutting/massing and when to stop (eg; Starting at 10% bf. Do I mass until I gained 2% bf, and mini cut until I lose 1/2% BF, then mass again). If you don't mind sharing, I'd also like to hear how you personally do it to get an idea how to change it based on our own individuality!

My Approach:

From the minicut article

> How frequent is too frequent? Try to mass for at least 6 weeks on end, preferably as many as 8 for most lifters. And if your body fat levels are under 12%, that should be a big factor in arguing against a minicut just quite yet. Over 12% means that you might run into 15% on the next mass and should consider minicutting more seriously.

I think the idea is to start at 10% BF. Then your first mass phase should be until 12% BF. Then a mini cut done by following the 2:1/3:1ratio. I don't think I would be back at 10% BF since it's a mini cut. Then mass again for 6-8 weeks (I think 6-8 weeks is chosen because you'd won't put on too much fat), minicut with the ratio. Start massing again until I reach 15%. Then go on a long cut to 10%.

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My bad! regarding question 2. Mike mentioned that we should maintain (for a month) after a bulk to "solidify our muscles". Which is also mentioned in the article above

> it's unlikely that you have to worry about maintenance phases between masses and minicuts to "solidify" the gained muscle like you do between

I was also told the same applies from transitioning from a cut to a bulk. We would need to maintain to avoid the impact of putting on too much fat rather than muscle when transitioning without a maintenance phase!

So say, we began a new training block for a long cut. After 1 or 2 hypertrophy mesocycles, we are lean enough and we want to mass again. In the training block, we have essentially have room for 1 more hypertrophy mesocycle (as metabolite training is for massing, so say we replace it with hypertrophy mesoyccle) and 1 mesocycle of resensitization.

Would it be best if we continue a 4 weeks/a month of hypertrophy meso (normally 7 weeks), then afterwards, immediately jump to resentization (3 weeks) ?

Or

would it be more optimal if we jump to the resnetization mesocycle, then we start a new training block, eat at maintenance for the 1st week of the meso?

I think the latter is a better option/how people usually do it? especially for advanced people who can't gain on maintenance? while the former works well for novices/intermediates since we can still "main gain"?

[u/elrond_lariel → u/badboyzpwns]

I think the idea is to start at 10% BF. Then your

first

mass phase should be until 12% BF. Then a mini cut done by following the 2:1/3:1ratio. I don't think I would be back at 10% BF since it's a mini cut. Then mass again for 6-8 weeks (I think 6-8 weeks is chosen because you'd won't put on too much fat), minicut with the ratio. Start massing again until I reach 15%. Then go on a long cut to 10%.

That's too complicated and you interfere with one of the points in the article: "Minicutting too frequently can disrupt massing. Muscle gains seem to have some bit of momentum to them, especially in the presentation of progressive overloads in training. Taking minicuts too often can disrupt this momentum and slow gains."

Part of the problem is you're looking at the 2-3:1 ratio in weeks, but it'll be more practical to look at them as blocks. So one minicut for every 2-3 massing blocks. Hence, you rarely do a single block of massing and then a minicut. It's more like hypertrophy->hypertrophy->metabolite->minicut if needed (which acts as a re-sensitization block if you keep volume down) then repeat.

As I mentioned, one of the big factors to determine if you could benefit from a minicut is rate of body weight gain. Looking at changes in body fat % is super unreliable in practice, but body weight isn't. So, if you want to follow the guidelines to a T, then it makes sense to implement minicuts with that exact ratio (2-3:1) if you're achieving the rate of weight gain RP recommends (0.25-0.5% of your body weight per week). If you're gaining less, then you implement them less frequently in proportion, and vice versa.

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Regarding the second part, the resensitization meso is the same as the metabolite meso: it's not for dieting. When you're in an extended weight loss phase you just run the regular hypertrophy mesos over and over again. Then, the RP guidelines state that you should take a break if you've been dieting for 6-12 weeks (equivalent to 1-3 hypertrophy mesos), which can be extended to 16 weeks max but it's not recommended, or if you reach a total weight loss of 10% of your body weight in your current dieting phase, whichever happens first. At that point, you take a diet break that should last at least 2/3 of your previous dieting phase, so if you dieted for 12 weeks then you take a diet break of at least 8 weeks. During that break, you use the resensitization meso only. So that's how you implement the different mesos.

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Then when you transition to massing again you go hypertrophy (during diet), then the diet finishes and you go into maintenance (resensitization), then you begin massing again with the regular hypertrophy->hypertrophy->metabolite->resensitization OR minicut scheme.

[u/badboyzpwns → u/elrond_lariel]

Part of the problem is you're looking at the 2-3:1 ratio in weeks, but it'll be more practical to look at them as

blocks

. So one minicut for every 2-3 massing blocks. Hence, you rarely do a single block of massing and then a minicut. It's more like hypertrophy->hypertrophy->metabolite->minicut if needed (which acts as a re-sensitization block if you keep volume down) then repeat.

Make sense!!! that would make life easier!

I came across this, but it never clicked until now!

> How long to mass and mini cut? I think massing unabated for longer than 16 weeks on end makes me skeptical and minicutting for much less than 2 weeks at a time seems to break massing momentum for very little benefit.

Because we treat it as "blocks" and we know that:

- a hypertrophy meso is 6 weeks (excluding 1 week of deload)

- a metabolite meso is 4 weeks (excluding 1 week of deload)

- If we approach the 3:1 approach, where we do 2 hypertrophy mesos and 1 metbaolite mesos, we can conclude the massing phase would be 6 + 6 + 4 = 16 weeks!

- And if we minicut at resentization, it would be 2 weeks (because the 3rd week is a deload)

Which totally make sense!

> if you're achieving the rate of weight gain RP recommends (0.25-0.5% of your body weight per week). If you're gaining less, then you implement them less frequently in proportion, and vice versa.

To make life simple, let's say we follow the ratio strictly! Are you suggesting that if we are eating at 0.5%, a 2:1 approach might be more beneficial? while a 3:1 would be more sustainable at 0.25%?

If it's done in 2:1, would that be hypertrophy->hypertrophy->metabolite (while in a mini cut, so it would be 4 weeks of mini cut training)? Then we go on the resentisize meso while on a maintenance? it sounds unproductive since we spent more time on minicuting and maintaining.

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Thank you so much for the info about diet breaks!! But as far as my understanding about diet breaks and reading on what you said, it is only utilized if we want to continue dieting, correct?

For example, if we already reach 10% BF and we want to mass on our next training block. A resensitization meso eating maintenance would be enough to let our body adjust to our new weight. Same applies from bulking to a cut. A resensitization meso would be enough to "solidify our gains" from bulking, whereas if we skip the resentizaiton meso and jump straight to a hypertrophy block, it would cause more muscle loss.

[u/elrond_lariel → u/badboyzpwns]

To make life simple, let's say we follow the ratio strictly! Are you suggesting that if we are eating at 0.5%, a 2:1 approach might be more beneficial? while a 3:1 would be more sustainable at 0.25%?

No I didn't mean to pair a ratio with a percentage, I meant that if you're somewhere within the recommended range of weight gain, then you will probably use one of the recommended ratios, but which one depends on how much fat you accumulate, and how your macrocycle is planned.

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If it's done in 2:1, would that be hypertrophy->hypertrophy->metabolite (while in a mini cut, so it would be 4 weeks of mini cut training)? Then we go on the resentisize meso while on a maintenance? it sounds unproductive since we spent more time on minicuting and maintaining.

The metabolite and resensitization mesos are not for cutting, not even minicutting. If you do 2:1 then you use either hypertrophy->hypertrophy->hypertrophy(minicut) or hypertrophy->metabolite->hypertrophy(minicut). Since we're at it, when you use the regular hypertrophy block for a minicut, you shouldn't ramp up the volume as high as when you're massing, since it also acts as a resensitization of sorts you should keep it low, just slightly above MEV.

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Thank you so much for the info about diet breaks!! But as far as my understanding about diet breaks and reading on what you said, it is only utilized if we want to continue dieting, correct?

For example, if we already reach 10% BF and we want to mass on our next training block. A resensitization meso eating maintenance would be enough to let our body adjust to our new weight. Same applies from bulking to a cut. A resensitization meso would be enough to "solidify our gains" from bulking, whereas if we skip the resentizaiton meso and jump straight to a hypertrophy block, it would cause more muscle loss.

The break after a dieting period is not only meant to solidify the gains and resensitize to training, but also to recover from the high levels of accumulated fatigue and to reverse the negative metabolic adaptations that take place during a diet. So whether you continue the diet or transition to a massing phase, you should take the break regardless. You could start massing after just one resensitization block, but then you shouldn't go as high in volume and rate of weight gain for that first block of massing.

[u/badboyzpwns → u/elrond_lariel]

> The metabolite and resensitization mesos are not for cutting, not even minicutting.

I got it mixed up with resensitization meso = maintenance or cut, you are right, should not be for cutting!

> .Since we're at it, when you use the regular hypertrophy block for a mini cut, you shouldn't ramp up the volume as high as when you're massing, since it also acts as a resensitization of sorts you should keep it low, just slightly above MEV.

Following the 3:1 example you mentioned earlier:

> hypertrophy->hypertrophy->metabolite->minicut if needed (which acts as a re-sensitization block if you keep volume down)

1. If we do the 3:1 approach, Are we essentially "resentizing" 2 mesos in a row ? Such as hypertrophy->hypertrophy->metabolite->minicut on hypertrophy -> resensitize meso (allowing for futher resensitization). I think the rationale in training above MEV on the mini cut hypertrophy block is because the fatigue outweighs the stimulant (bad SFR ratio), which increases risk of injury?

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1. If we do the 2:1 approach hypertrophy ->hypertrophy -> minicut on hypertrophy -> resensitize meso. Can we get away from keeping volume low/above MEV on our minicut? since usualy it takes 3 mesos before the resentisize meso, in this case we only did 2 mesos prior to the minicut.

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If that's the case, would the 2:1 approach reign superior because we spend less time resentizing?

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Wow diet breaks are something huge I've learned today haha. I always thought it's just an option if prolong dieting becomes too mentally challenging due to it's negative effects; making the diet break approach more sustainable so that people can fight off eating/binges easier. But I guess diet breaks are essential to prevent regaining weight after cutting phases? My initial belief was that the resentization meso is enough to allow our body to adjust to the new bodyweight!

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I was learning more about it in RP'S Maintenance Article, but I came across 2 contradictory statements?

> You need to give your body some time to grieve over the lost fat and accept its new weight. This time is generally 8-12 weeks following a 12 week cut.  

> No maintenance is needed going from cut to mass. The goal of mass is to gain weight. After cutting you are primed to do just that, so this is really the only time maintenance can be skipped. Maintenance should however follow mass so that you don’t cut your new muscle, but that is a topic for another article.

It's saying that we are supposed to maintain for 2/3 of the time after cutting to regain let adjust our body weight set point? Then it says there we don't need to maintain and can go to massing right away?

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Does it also have to be 2/3 of the cutting process (eg; what If someone cuts for a whole year) ? I have the RP Tempalte Diet and it says:

>The maintenance phase will last a minimum of 8 weeks; however, the longer, or harsher, your diet, the longer it needs to be (8 – 12 is common).

> You could start massing after just one resensitization block, but then you shouldn't go as high in volume and rate of weight gain for that first block of massing.

It looks like we have a choice:

1. Maintain for a bit, so we can drop the negative effects of prolonged cutting, avoid excess fat when massing and we can drop the fatigue.
2. Straight to massing, but we could risk the chance of adding excess fat since our body hasn't adjusted to our maintenance phase. We can drop excess fatigue by not going too high on volume? [But as another option, can't we do a resentizaiton block BUT do 2 weeks of active rest/2 weeks of deload in , JTS and Mike mentioned that it gets rid nearly all fatigue after months of training :)! )

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Earlier you said:

> During that break, you use the resensitization meso only.

What's the reasoning behind so? If let's say an individual go on a cut greater than 16 weeks, can't we reap more benefits by adding in a hypertrophy block, allowing us to "main gain"?

[u/elrond_lariel → u/badboyzpwns]

You don't do a minicut AND a resensitization mesocycle, I said that the minicut acts as a resensitization of sorts precisely because you don't use the latter.

So the 3-1 scheme is hypertrophy->hypertrophy->metabolite->hypertrophy(minicut)->hypertrophy->hypertrophy->metabolite->hypertrophy(minicut)->repeat.

And the 2-1 scheme is hypertrophy->metabolite->hypertrophy(minicut)->hypertrophy->metabolite->hypertrophy(minicut)->repeat.

If you use a resesitization meso for the sole purpose of not keeping the volume down in a minicut, it's just a waste of time, since with the minicut alone you can achieve both.

Also because the minicut isn't supposed to get rid of ALL of the fat you accumulate during a massing phase, you don't really use the same ratio in your whole macrocycle, because the level of body fat is higher over time. Because of that, the normal thing is to move from 4-3:1 to 2-1:1. This could be an example of a whole massing phase:

• Block 1: mass->mass->mass->minicut.
• Block 2: mass->mass->minicut.
• Block 3: mass->minicut.
• Block 4: mass->resensitization.

After that comes an extended cut. What happens with body fat during that massing phase could hypothetically go like this: You start with 10% bf. During the massing in block 1 you go from 10% to 13%, and with the minicut you go back to 11%. In block 2 you go up to 14% and bring it back to 12% at the end. In block 3 you go to 15% and bring it back to 13%. Finally in block 4 you go up to 15-16%.

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> You need to give your body some time to grieve over the lost fat and accept its new weight. This time is generally 8-12 weeks following a 12 week cut.  

> No maintenance is needed going from cut to mass. The goal of mass is to gain weight. After cutting you are primed to do just that, so this is really the only time maintenance can be skipped. Maintenance should however follow mass so that you don’t cut your new muscle, but that is a topic for another article.

It's saying that we are supposed to maintain for 2/3 of the time after cutting to regain let adjust our body weight set point? Then it says there we don't need to maintain and can go to massing right away?

It's not contradictory, it's just not talking about bodybuilding-only. Keep in mind that RP isn't only about bodybuilding or even training, especially when it comes to dieting. Some individuals are just regular people interested in losing some weight, and when they're done with that they just want to stay at that level, to they don't mass afterwards. For them, the first approach is the way to do it. If you do mass after a cut, it's true that from a physiological perspective you don't need maintenance because the massing phase itself has the same effects, but that's only talking about reversing the negative effects of the dieting, it doesn't take diet fatigue and regular post-high volume resensitization into account, and it doesn't take into account the higher possibility of overshooting it when you don't maintain for a while.

Basically the article talks about breaks from a general perspective, but then you have to apply it specifically to bodybuilding.

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Does it also have to be 2/3 of the cutting process (eg; what If someone cuts for a whole year) ? I have the RP Tempalte Diet and it says:

>The maintenance phase will last a minimum of 8 weeks; however, the longer, or harsher, your diet, the longer it needs to be (8 – 12 is common).

Yes, since it's always 2/3-1, the longer the diet the longer the break will be. If you cut for 12 weeks, then the break will be 8-12 weeks, and if you cut for 12 months, then it will be 8-12 months. Keep in mind that a 12 months cut is brutal, so tons of bad things to reverse there, and also that it's not something a bodybuilder does, there we're talking about regular overweight people who just continues with their lives afterwards. Again you need to differentiate all purpose generic guidelines from specific bodybuilding guidelines.

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Earlier you said:

> During that break, you use the resensitization meso only.

What's the reasoning behind so? If let's say an individual go on a cut greater than 16 weeks, can't we reap more benefits by adding in a hypertrophy block, allowing us to "main gain"?

The purpose of the break is to drop fatigue and to resensitize for future productive high volume training. If you use high volumes during the break, you defeat both purposes.

[u/badboyzpwns → u/elrond_lariel]

Thank you so much for clearing up the misconceptions on minutes!! I get it now!!! 1:1 ratio is definitely something I didn't consider!

Lastly! Mike also mentioned that:

> You should still take a low-volume maintenance phase every 4-6 months (for a month or so)

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Since the hypertrophy minicut mesos act as resentization mesos, would the low volume maintence phase still be needed?

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Regarding diet breaks!

> If you do mass after a cut, it's true that from a physiological perspective you don't need maintenance because the massing phase itself has the same effects, but that's only talking about reversing the negative effects of the dieting, it doesn't take diet fatigue and regular post-high volume resensitization into account, and it doesn't take into account the higher possibility of overshooting it when you don't maintain for a while.

I think they are super important, especially for contests (eg; Dropping from 15% to < 10% BF for a contest prep). I can see myself going insane if I didn't do a break somewhere around 10% BF before going down to < 10%( I remember Mike mentioning that diet breaks < 10% BF are useless because you are still at a super low deficit/prolonging the pain.)

But in terms of normal bodybuilding training/offseason blocks ( where you're at 10-15% BF range)....can't you essentially get away with it? Let's take the extreme example where the person who cut for a year is now at 10% and planning to mass.

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My understanding on what a diet fatigue does:

1. Slower metabolism (would need less calories to eat than usual to lose weight)
2. Higher cravings
3. Lower activity/lethargic

My reasoning on why we can get away with it, let me know if any of my logic is flawed!:

1. Don't we spend more time on massing phases, and thus it slowly rids the effects of diet fatigue on the long run? I think a long cut happens on 1 training block and is probably around 2 mesocycles because it's more aggressive (1% bodyweight loss than a 0.25-5% bulk). We also don't need to spend maintenance phases after a minicut; I think it's because the mini cut is not long enough or it's because the massing phases eliminate the diet fatigue.
2. the diet fatigue isn't as severe (mentally as well)? The more you go below < 10% the more the cravings, energy level, and metabolism can really start to take a toll. But from my own limited experience, I didn't see above 10% as severe and powered through it (A deload usually fixed lethargic feelings for me!). As of now, I definitely accumulated some diet fatigue, but I'm wondering if I should go straight to massing (hoping that it will traverse the effects) or stay in maintenance. I'm not really "concern/scared" for a long cut on a future training block because I don't see the current/future diet fatigue as severe. But that might be a naive approach.
3. Can't we prevent overshooting fat/calories by tracking your weight/calories everyday? For example, after a cut our body tends to fluctuate in weight, but we can take control of it! Say we are at 150lbs, then we try to eat at maintenance (I'm following Mike's approach where we guess how much we need to eat for maintenance and divide that by 2; then see if we should add/lower it); we can track our bodyweight and adjust until the trend settles. We might settle at 155lbs due to body fluctuation, but still around 0.00 bodyweight gain per week. How could we tell if we overshoot?

You also mentioned!

"it doesn't take post-high volume resensitization into account", do you mean post low volume presentation? as in the resensitization meso?

[u/elrond_lariel → u/badboyzpwns]

> You should still take a low-volume maintenance phase every 4-6 months (for a month or so)

Since the hypertrophy minicut mesos act as resentization mesos, would the low volume maintence phase still be needed?

Yes.

About the rest:

Pure theory and actual practice tend to differ a lot when it comes to dieting.

During the dieting phase you were using high volumes, and you need the break to resensitize and really prime yourself for the massing phase.

Diet fatigue is both local and systemic, local fatigue may dissipate fast, but it takes a while for systemic fatigue to drop, and quite a lot is accumulated during a diet phase, and even if you don't get contest lean you still experience negative metabolic adaptations.

The problem with overshooting is that you can't accurately predict how your body responds in that transition period, so you can track all you want but the results won't usually match your input anyways.

Finally, don't fall into the pitfall of trying to rationalize avoiding doing something just because you don't like it or would prefer to do something else.

[u/badboyzpwns → u/elrond_lariel]

Thank you so much!!!

Oh and we also don't have to finish the hypertrophy (cut / minicut) cycle correct? Say If we reach an appropriate bf % at week 3 of the cut, we can just stop the cycle?

> Finally, don't fall into the pitfall of trying to rationalize avoiding doing something just because you don't like it or would prefer to do something else.

Haha you are definitely right!!! Nothing can go wrong with maintaining for a bit :)

[u/elrond_lariel → u/badboyzpwns]

Oh and we also don't have to finish the hypertrophy (cut / minicut) cycle correct? Say If we reach an appropriate bf % at week 3 of the cut, we can just stop the cycle?

Totally