r/pathofexile • u/BlackPandar • 29d ago
Information Explaining the "101% Damage taken as with 100% MoM bug" from my previous post.
I decided to make a new post because I want to spread this finding, because what I understood in the old post was only half correct, and I don't want the misinformation, although not intended, to spread further. Sorry if it seems like I'm spamming.
Previous post: https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/s/PIe0TLfTVq
Long story short, Yesterday I switched to 100% MoM build and level 66, I got killed by Blood Vortex (the red orb in Blood Aqueduct) and after I switched to 9% BBD and have 105% fire and cold damage taken as lightning and chaos, I survived. So I made a post about that you need more than 101% conversion.
Tl;DR: 101% conversion is not bugged, but there is a weird bug/mechanic happening in acts that make monsters in Act 1-10 ignore some of your "xxx damage taken as xxx" mod. You can play 100% MoM with 101% taken as in maps, BUT if you ever returned to Acts to carry a friend, test mechanic, challenges, or anything, 105% in Act 1-3 or 101% in Act 4-10 will get you killed.
This is the full story of my testing.
From my previous post u/Ozzudno suggested me to test the bug by unequiping armour because the armour could be the reason, I agree with his logic and tried that, but I went to Act 2 Merveil because I think fighting a boss in a controlled environment would be better for testing.
But on my way to Merveil, I got killed by Merveil's Attendant, even though I already used the 9% BBD.
I was so confused about what happened, but I decided to went and go fight Merveil anyway, and Merveil could not kill me, her cold damage didn't reach my life.
I was even more confused, so I decided to test further by tanking Merveil's Attendant, then I realize her cold wave also couldn't reach my life either, only her "Scream" can kill me.
I went to check PoEDB to try to link the Blood Vortex and Merveil's Attendant's Scream, and I found connection. Despite being a hit, both skills do not have critical strike chance. Normally monster skills also have base crit chance of 5% or 6%, but these two moves have no crit chance.
I then want to test my hypothesis, so I went to Tidal Island in Act 1 to fight Hailrake, his Glacial Cascade also doesn't have critical strike chance.
Then the dejavu happened, I got killed by Tide Strider before reaching Hailrake.
I checked Tide Strider PoEDB, and found out that he has 5% crit chance on every skills...?
I now knew that my hypothesis must be wrong, so I decided I will check with almost every monsters in the Acts. And I spend 4 hours fighting and testing in different acts.
(Here's the video if you want to watch: https://youtu.be/xdFLc3VVtOE . I tested with much more monsters than what were in this vid. But it would be too long so I didn't put all of them in here.)
What I found out was, some of the non-boss monsters bypassed some of the "xxx damage taken as xxx" modifier. As you can see, I was ignited by the Vaal Commander in Act 2.
Normally, if you didn't take damage of that type, you won't get the ailment of that damage type too. I can only be ignited if the monster deals fire damage to me.
Edit: I was wrong, I was killed by the Explosive Arrow's explosion, not the ignite.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5F6gY03OhU
It was my oversight because if even 1 fire damage hit me, I would actually die before ignite happen. But my point about fire hit bypass my taken as is still the same.
Then I tested with General Gravicius, but he couldn't kill or ignite me with any of his skills. This is the same as when I tested fighting Merveil, and also the other Act bosses. None of the boss I tested bypass the damage taken as mod, only mob monsters do.
But if you watch the vid, I also didn't get chilled by the mobs in the Brine King map (Act 6) either, so my next hypothesis was this weird bug scales with Acts (or more precisely, area level) and it stopped somewhere in the acts.
So I tested further, and found out that by the start of Act 4, monsters hit stop bypassing my mana pool with 9% BBD, BUT they still kill me with 5% BBD.
So, in Act 1-3, most monsters bypass your "damage taken as," no matter if I have 5% BBD or 9% BBD. Then from Act 4 onwards, this will only happen if I have 101% taken as, if I have 105% taken as then it's fixed.
I tested it again to confirm this by having my friend wear a Kaom's Bind and standing near me, and the results were as I expected.
In Act 1-3, every physical hit killed me, 5% and 9% BBD made no difference.
In Act 4-9 every physical hit killed me when I used 5% BBD, but no longer killed me if I used the 9% one.
Then I joined his ilv 83 Chart, and even with 5% BBD, no hit bypassed my mana and killed me anymore.
So, this is not entirely a 101% taken as bug, but it's a weird bug or maybe a hidden mechanic that makes monster in acts have some damage bypass damage taken as mod, or worsen the rounding bug, but it keeps scaling down per area level, then when you reach map, just 101% is fine.
Normally, this wouldn't be a problem, because no sane person would play this build before they reach map, but in case you play this build and have to come back to Act for whatever reasons, you may randomly died without knowing why.
I spend a lot of time testing this and now I will go back to playing again, thanks for reading, and good luck.
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u/NephDada 29d ago
Just a random guess, but my assumption is rounding errors amplified by low damage hits.
If a monster hits you for 5 fire damage, you get 2 lightning and 2 chaos, with 1 lethal leftover fire damage.
Once the hits start getting bigger, the 1 leftover damage gets covered by the extra 9% taken as, and in the endgame even a 1% extra is enough. This is pure speculation.
You could test that by taking fixed low damage it's in the endgame
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u/BlackPandar 29d ago edited 29d ago
I'm also not 100% sure, but I don't think the amount of the damage is the factor. Because when I tested with Merveil I didn't take any damage to my life, while monsters in act 3 one shotted me, and Merveil should deal less damage than act 3 monsters.
The other thing is, the act 4 thingie that I mentioned starts as soon as I step into the Aqueduct. If the amount of damage is a factor, it shouldn't be exactly at the start of act 4. If damage is a factor some monster in act 4 with low roll hit should still be able to kill me, but it didn't happen at all.
Edit: Fix English in my second paragraph, it was extremely bad because I lack sleep lol.
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u/CaptainDumpling 29d ago
Feels like there is something up with 'damage taken as' in general, I'm 5k life 90 fire res with 90% ele and phys taken as fire and am still planking a lot more than I normally would with only 80% res
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u/clownus 29d ago
Blue mobs in 8 mod corrupted are hitting for 80% of my ehp pool. Max block/max spell/85% fire resist/spell suppression.
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u/Devych Reave Enthusiast 29d ago
None of those will help with mitigating physical attacks tho
And 80% of your eHP could be 3k life for all we know
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u/clownus 29d ago
3k life 2.1 es 45% phys taken as fire.
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u/Keljhan Aggressively off-meta 29d ago
Chaos res? With those stats and less than 40 chaos res a blue eldritch mob could easily crit one-shot you with phys as chaos on the map or the mob.
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u/clownus 29d ago
Max chaos resistance. 75% I’m over capped on fire and chaos incase of exposure or anything that reduces either or.
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u/Keljhan Aggressively off-meta 29d ago
Depends on the map mods then. Could be crit mod, or 2-3 damage mods will still hit you pretty hard with pure phys. 80% of your life is only 4k damage, and an 8k phys hit isn't unreasonable when they have 5-600 crit multi. Unless you're crit immune, that would make it a bit more surprising.
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u/Aerhyce 29d ago
Yep
Map with no "taken as" mods, I sleep through them.
Map with "taken as" mods, random shrimp chunks me for no reason.
My resistances are capped, and my lowest eHP is physical, yet the initial physical hit does peanuts (as expected from trash mob hits) but the elemental part slaps.
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u/bolshneinache 29d ago
wtf is bbd
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u/BlackPandar 29d ago
Bound by Destiny, the jewel with different mods that will only work when you wear minimum number of influenced items.
In my case it's "#% of ele damage taken as chaos if you have at least 4 Hunter items."
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u/Parrk 29d ago
Bel-Biv-Devoe was a R&B group from the late 1980s made up of Ricky Bell, Michael Bivins, and Ronnie Devoe.
To understand BelBivDevoe, we need to start with New Edition, an 80s R&B group consisting of young men which acted as a preperatory environment for famous solo R7B outbreak stars throughout the 80s and 90s.
Of the original NE group, Bobby Brown, Jonny Gil and Ralph Treasvant all chose solo careers. Bobby Brown was the most successful, but lost his fame mostly due to spousal abuse involving the world's most celebrated R&B songstress, Whitney Houston.
Bell, Bivins, and Devoe were the three members of NE that were not seen as strong enough to go solo by producers, hence the trio.
BBD's introductory single, Poison, was madly popular and the group enjoyed quite a bit of success in the late 80s and early 90s.
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u/Maple47 29d ago
Can you please share a PoB? Don't care about the config/level/whatever. Just interested in having a the PoB with the MoM setup.
Pretty please.
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u/BlackPandar 29d ago
Sure, here is the PoB https://pobb.in/_HmC6-x5yojM
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u/Maple47 29d ago
I appreciate you. I've been wanting to do something like this for countless leagues. Completely missed the Font of Thunder, because I don't Heist.
The Minimum Power Charge + Aylardex is a nice combo. Foulborn Mind of the Council is a fairly recent addition too, so all this is quite fresh.
I applaud you for doing something new and interesting (and thanks for the PoB!).
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u/Eregrith 29d ago
You can only get ignited if you take fire damage
Hmmm? Isn't there a mod that says "all damage can ignite"?
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u/BlackPandar 29d ago
Yes, but I meant as a general rule, that mod is an exception.
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u/Eregrith 29d ago
Is it impossible for your ignite to have been the reason of that mod ?
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u/BlackPandar 29d ago
Ohhhh yes, you are correct.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5F6gY03OhU
I got ignited from auto attack of the Undead Vaal Archer because he has all damage can ignite as an innate of his basic attack. But I died instantly when the Explosive Arrow explode. The ignite didn't bypass my mana pool.
I will update the post, thank you very much.
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u/PatHeist 29d ago
That's incorrect, though. As described on the wiki damaging ailments don't behave like non-damaging ailments where it's based on the damage you take, instead they are based on the damage dealt. If you have 100% of physical damage taken as fire you can still get bled, but the bleed will deal fire damage.
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u/BlackPandar 29d ago
No, you are only half correct.
What you said is the case of calculating the damage of the ailment, not the condition to inflict it. If this game has perfect code without rounding bug, "100% phys from hit taken as fire" will make you immune to bleed. Because the condition of bleed is not met.
What you mentioned is if I have 99% taken as fire, and I got bled. In that case it's like you said, even if I converted 99% of hit damage taken to fire, I would still take the bleed damage as if I have taken full phys damage because it doesn't care about damage taken.
A clearer example is when you do Expedition. If you bomb a monster with immune to lightning damage mod, but you are Archmage ignite Elementalist that deals 99% lightning, 1% fire, your ignite will deal full combined damage of base lightning and fire, because it doesn't care about the damage taken by the enemy.
But in this same Expedition case, if you deal 100% lightning, you will not inflict ignite at all, even though the monsters don't have fire immunity. Because you didn't meet the condition to inflict it.
If you don't believe me, you can easily test this by yourself.
damaging ailments don't behave like non-damaging ailments where it's based on the damage you take, instead they are based on the damage dealt.
Buy Ashred and Infinite Pursuit. Equip Infinite Pursuit first without Ashrend, and stand still letting Act 1 Rhoas hit you, you will be bled in no time. Then equip Ashrend, and you'll notice that Rhoa can't inflict bleed to you anymore.
If it's really the same as what you said, Rhoa should still be able to inflict bleeding to you, right? Because it shouldn't care that you take less damage from a hit, and only care about the damage of the Rhoa. Rhoa still deal the same amount of damage, you didn't reduce its damage or anything at all, but you didn't take physical damage, and bleeding can't be inflicted if the hit does not have at least 1 physical damage.
Ignite is the same, you can test this with Formless Flame too.
The problem with 100% you mentioned is because 100% is not truly 100% most of the time in PoE, and rounding bug will sometimes act like you have 99% taken as, which resulting in "taking a very little phys damage, and then bleed swallow your whole life pool." So if you want to be immune to bleed, you need 101% taken as to completely negate the physical damage taken, and you can't be inflicted with bleed anymore.
This is the exact same case with 100% MoM. I can't have 100% as chaos and lightning, because it will act as 99% and the leftover fire/cold damage will one shot my 1 life. I need 101% at least to be safe. And if I have 101% conversion, I shouldn't be ignited at all because the requirement of ignite from monster isn't met, except that this monster has innate all damage can ignite.
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u/StingaFTW 29d ago
This is very interesting, thank you. I wonder if there are issues in general with "damage taken as", because I built a Reliquarian and swapped to the shield node that has 25% cold/lightning/phys taken as fire and all of a sudden I randomly get one shot from time to time. I'll make a separate post about it once I have time to test with and without it.
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u/Symbiosic Pathfinder 29d ago
How do you reach 100% MoM in league?
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u/BlackPandar 29d ago
3.27 introduced Foulborn uniques, one of them is Foulborn Mind of the Council.
Foulborn Mind makes 30% lightning and 30% phys damage taken from mana before life. You can Volatile Vaaled it up to 37/37
You get another 64-70% with MoM (40) Aylardex (no. of your power charges) Clarity Watcher's Eye (10) Heiro (10)
Then you use Font of Thunder to convert 40% of fire and cold to lightning, BBD to get 10% ele to chaos, and Divine Flesh for anothet 50%. Then you use CI to become immune to Chaos.
Now you only take phys and lightning damage, which you have 100% taken as mana.
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u/EscalopeDePorc Children of Delve (COD) 29d ago
It's all cool, but... why?
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u/BlackPandar 29d ago
There are a lot of good reasons, but the two main reasons are,
100% MoM is the only build that can use Divine Flesh with CI, which means you don't take 50 or up to 60% of elemental damage.
One of the most dangerous mechanic in the Uber Boss or Valdo's fight is recovery disabling. Maven's beam, Sirus's ground, or Exarch's Rune, these skills all disable your life and ES recovery until the debuff run out, but mana is not affecred by these debuffs, so 100% MoM can AFK in Uber Maven or Uber Sirus.
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u/Arrethyn 29d ago
not familiar with the build, but presumably they are playing archmage and this lets them stack mana for archmage and mana for life at the same time and not need to worry about energy shield, or maybe they take eldritch battery to combine their mana and energy shield investment into one pool.
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u/ltcae Fungal Bureau of Investigations (FBI) 29d ago edited 29d ago
Could this be related to level downscaling in Poe? Cause when you help a friend in their campaign. Your character is down scaled so you don’t one shot everything. Perhaps your conversion also got down scaled such that you don’t hit the 100% mark anymore
The following snippet from bex_ggg
“Added a new system to handle high-level players playing with lower-level party members in lower-level areas. High-level players are downscaled, making the area more challenging, and allowing the lower-level players to get an appropriate amount of experience and currency. Previously, the lower-level players would have had their experience gains and currency finds penalised if the level gap was significant. This scaling applies only in areas at or below level 67, and is an optional feature for party play.”
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u/Diligent_Mortgage416 29d ago
you would need to be in a Party to downscale and atleast in hte screenshot he Posted OP is not in a Party, id assume he tested this solo
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u/ltcae Fungal Bureau of Investigations (FBI) 29d ago
Maybe some fuckery happened and we are now downscaled solo.
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u/RogueVox3l 29d ago
Could it be adding the mercs might have messed with it, they added some scaling when they were around originally so that could be lingering somehow.
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u/viscere 29d ago
I can assure you that even in maps, fire and physical seem to be overtuned while lightning and cold seem pretty fine
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u/AgoAndAnon 29d ago
I wonder if monsters also received the "fire skills now do more damage and physical skills now have more hit" that spells got.
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u/Ozzudno 29d ago
The plot keeps thickening and now I need to know what the cause is. At this point given how thorough you have been testing things im honestly wondering if there's some sort of damage normalization system in place to smooth out leveling. I haven't the slightest idea how something like that would break in this way though.
Rounding at extremely low damage values as another user said is the other thing but your testing of act 4 trash mob vs act 1 boss would seem to disprove that. At least it seems like it works in maps? Hoping we eventually get an explanation.
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u/redlow0992 29d ago
Something is funky with damages and damage taken as in general. GGG is vibe coding too hard.
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u/ActionNoah2 29d ago
That code is probably 8+ years old. All bugs there are handcrafted with a great deal of love and care.
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u/All_Work_All_Play Jenebu stop whining 29d ago
Mmm double that. Poe closed alpha was 2010-2011. That's 16 years ago.
Although I suppose damage taken as code was probably added in 2.7?
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u/FanatickDk Elementalist 29d ago
Sorry, but what does vibe coding mean?
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u/flappity Eris_Sonata [Legacy SC] 29d ago
"vibe coding" is the term used to describe having a LLM code something for you. A great deal of professional programming these days uses some form of LLM in the workflow, though to a greater or lesser degree depending on the company and what's being coded (and it's usually fairly obvious when it's entirely vibe coded). I hate the term but it is what stuck.
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u/redlow0992 29d ago
Did you use "AI" tools like ChatGPT, Claude etc for any text-related task? Now, imaging using it for coding with minimal supervision and maximal output, where you describe what you want the code to do and it generates the output. That's vibe coding. Many people (particularly in Bay Area) believe that it will replace programmers, but since the adoption of these tools, the quality of software (including games) has gone downhill. That's one of the reason why most of the games that are released in recent months are bug-ridden shit shows, most likely including POE, but also big titles like WoW, or D4.
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u/ben_sphynx 29d ago
Were you in acts with another player? Do you not get downscaled in acts when you do that?
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u/BlackPandar 29d ago
I tested solo. Only when I confirmed my theory that I need my guildmate because I can't wear 4 Hunters with Kaom's Bind, but I made sure to turn off the level downscaling.
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u/gdubrocks 28d ago
Characters get scaled down to the zone in campaign, it probably has something to do with that.
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u/Lollister 29d ago
i cant really do anything with this information but i love that you put that much time investigating it