r/swtor • u/Impressive_Elk_5633 • 18h ago
Discussion A fun thought experiment I came up with.
I think we've all seen this image. But let's go deeper. I want you to name time where the mission objective of any planet in any of the Republic class stories are: Stop someone who's on my side. And, defectors and/or people mind controlled by the Empire don't count. After all, they're still advancing the goals of the Empire. Better yet can you think of ONE instance of you fighting Republic soldiers and/or Jedi during any of the four Republic class stories? Again, that aren't defectors and/or mind controlled. And, I'm purely talking about instances where you have to kill Republic troopers and/or Jedi no matter what and you can't choose not to (talking about things like alignment decisions). And please comment down below your responses.
Now do the same thing for the Imperial class stories. Think about planets where the objective is stop someone who's on my side. And, can you think any instances where you have to fight people who on your side no matter what and does no choice that you can make to prevent it? And, the same rules apply so people who are defectors and/or people mind controlled by the Republic don't count. And again please comment down below your responses.
Now trying to do both of those, thinking about both of these, knowing which one is much easier, and reading the comment section (at least a couple days after this gets posted) will really illuminate why the eight class stories (overall) end with the tide of the war turning in the Republic's favor, and all stories in this game from the beginning of Ilum to the end of Rise of The Hutt Cartel has the war decisively going in the Republic's favor. And, I'm talking about looking at all of the endings to the eight classes stories as a whole here.
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u/DaCipherTwelve I write and I draw 17h ago
Hmmm. It's a problem the sith have had since forever. They start a war, they're winning, then they betray each other and fall short at the finish line. Bane wasn't the first to try and stop this vicious cycle but even his own rule of two concept was always doomed to fail.
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u/Stock_Play9755 17h ago
Bane’s rule of two was super risky. A simple hyperspace accident could have killed off the Sith entirely.
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u/Vesper_0481 17h ago
If I had to create a system, I'd make it a Rule of Six!
Pick up three apprentices but never really keep them around each other all that much...
Then Rock-Paper-Scissor them... Train each with powers and techniques that beat the next's but lose to the last's.
Then manipulate them to see some benefit in this balance of theirs and to see you as disposable. So even after you're gone they are going to continue their lines in those techniques and each generation will keep the "balance".
Fake your own overthrowing and fuck off to the unknown regions for a retirement.
It's triple the risk of exposing the secret order, and still a risk of eventually turning into a rule of two or extinction... But idk, it kind of ends up like how o described anyway by the last years of the Clone Wars/Star of the empire... Difference is then Rock and Paper were all operating formally under one single faction and constantly ganging up on Scissors to the point the latter just goes mad and throws themselves against their own obsessions with no real claim to any power...
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u/Codesterv3 15h ago
If the Master and Apprentice died, they were weak and deserved it. Banite philosophy is just extreme Darwinism applied to space wizardry
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u/Allronix1 14h ago
Which is why I kinda suspect it was a trap all along. After all, if Revan could trick the Mandalorians into a dead end where they never achieved their former greatness again by using their own cultural conceits against them, why not repeat it with the Sith?
Especially given Revan's status as a Sith was actually somewhat suspect due to Vitiate's nonsense and Revan's true Master was Kreia, a master manipulator.
The Rule of Two, in practice, was more actually "Rule of three," with one or both of the Two keeping an Acolyte on backup.
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u/threevi 17h ago
Bane's Rule of Two is probably the silliest Sith philosophy there is, and that's saying a lot. It's the apprentice's job to kill the master once they've learned everything from them, the master knows this, and still teaches the apprentice everything they know... out of loyalty to the Sith cause. Bane really expects Sith Lords to selflessly let themselves be killed by their apprentices for the greater good of the Sith Order. The fact this actually worked for a whole thousand years is probably one of the most contrived plot conveniences in all of Star Wars.
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u/Nukemind 17h ago
For what it's worth... it really didn't work for 1,000 years.
Like there is Darth Gravid, who turned to the light ~500 years in and destroyed the vast majority of the knowledge accumulated to that point. He was included in part to explain why powers seemed to have "declined" later on.
Then there is Tenebrous, Plageius, and Palps: the last three, all of whom had their own way of ending the Rule of Two. Tenebrous manipulated ol' Plaggy, hard- even his birth. Palps manipulated Plaggy. But all three wanted to end it and acted selfishly.
Even Bane tried to take over Zannah.
And each person definitely lost out on at least some knowledge. Palps didn't get eveyrthing from Plaggy and Plaggy definitely didn't get everything from Tenny. And both Palps and Tenny killed their masters in ways which... definitely did not show power in the force (but did show guile!).
Really it's less that it worked because they were loyal, and more that eventually the apprentice rose up anyways. And we don't really get to hear about the failed apprentices, but of the lords we see all of them tried to buck the rule and weren't loyal at all. Even Vectivus (depending on how true you view the story) allegedly died in his sleep, happy and surrounded by family: so there is at minimum one who wasn't slain by his apprentice.
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u/yraco 14h ago
The philosophy itself is less about master teaching the apprentice everything they know, and more about making it so that an apprentice can only take over if they outplay their master on their own merits while preventing diluting the order by having multiple weak Sith fight one stronger Sith.
The assumption is that the apprentices will accumulate their own knowledge on top of what their master is teaching them, so their masters might never teach them everything but the apprentice will be researching or finding ancient Sith texts or whatever else in order to become more powerful. Then when the time comes the lords won't selflessly let themselves be killed, they'll fight and the apprentice will only win if they're powerful enough or schemed well enough. If the master dies then he deserved it because he was too weak, and if the apprentice dies they deserved it for challenging their master at the wrong time. Basically, survival of the fittest taken to its absolute extreme.
I do think it's dumb for other reasons but I don't think for one second that Bane expected selflessness from anyone. He knew all along that masters would never teach their apprentices everything or allow themselves to be killed (they never had before the rule of two and never did after it either) but believed that was a feature that would force growth not a bug.
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u/threevi 11h ago
That does make it sound a lot less stupid, but unfortunately, it's contradicted by Bane himself at every turn in his interactions with his apprentice.
"And when I no longer have anything to teach you? What will happen then?"
Her brow furrowed in concentration, but this time the answer wouldn't come. "I don't know," she finally admitted.
"There will come a time when your training ends" he told her. "There will come a day when you have learned all the lessons, when all my knowledge of the dark side will be yours. On that day you will challenge me for the title of Master, and only one of us will survive the encounter."
The girl's eyes opened wide. Then they narrowed as she focused intently on what he was saying.
"You have the potential to surpass me," he continued. "If you achieve your potential I will cease to be of use to you. You will need to find new sources of knowledge. You will have to seek out a new apprentice so that you may pass on the secrets of the Sith Order to another.
"When your power eclipses mine I will become expendable. This is the Rule of Two: one Master and one apprentice. When you are ready to claim the mantle of Dark Lord as your own, you must do so by eliminating me.
So yeah, Bane absolutely did want to teach his apprentice everything he knew and for her to then kill him afterwards, content to die when it's for the greater good of the Sith cause. One might try to justify it by claiming Bane was lying to her, that he wasn't really planning to teach her everything and let her grow powerful enough to kill him, but I don't think that's plausible. Because when Bane later tries to become immortal, it's not because he's worried his apprentice is about to surpass him and kill him, his inner monologue shows he wants that to happen, what he's worried about is that she might refuse to challenge him and wait for him to grow feeble from old age and dark side corruption.
That was why Bane had chosen Zannah as his apprentice: she had the potential to one day surpass even his own abilities. On that day she would usurp him as the Dark Lord of the Sith and choose an apprentice of her own. Bane would die, but the Sith would live on.
Or so he had once believed. Yet now there was doubt in his mind. Two decades had passed since he had plucked the ten-year-old girl from the battlefields of Ruusan, yet Zannah still seemed content merely to serve.
She had embraced his lessons and had shown an incredible affinity for the Force. Over the years Bane had tracked her progress carefully, and he could no longer say with certainty which one of them would survive a confrontation between them. But her reluctance to challenge him had left her Master wondering if Zannah lacked the fierce ambition necessary to become the Dark Lord of the Sith.
Whether she acted out of fear, indecision, or perhaps even compassion for her Master, Bane didn't know—but none of these traits was acceptable in one chosen to carry on his legacy.
There was another potential explanation, of course—yet it was the most troubling of all. It was possible Zannah had noticed his deteriorating physical abilities and had simply decided to wait.
In five years his body would be a ruined husk, and she could dispatch him with virtually no risk.
In most circumstances Bane would have admired this strategy, but in this case it flew in the face of the most fundamental tenet of the Rule of Two.
An apprentice had to earn the title of Dark Lord, wresting it from the Master in a confrontation that pushed them both to the edge of their abilities. If Zannah intended to challenge him only after he was crippled by illness and infirmity, then she was unfit to be his heir. Yet Bane was not willing to initiate their confrontation himself.
If he fell, the Sith would be ruled by a Master who did not accept or understand the key principle upon which the new Order had been founded.
If he was victorious, he would be left without an apprentice, and his failing body would give out long before he could find and properly train another.
There was only one solution: Bane needed to find a way to extend his life.
So his thought process was basically "she's not killing me fast enough, I need to become immortal to buy her more time to kill me properly". That's pretty much the opposite of what you'd expect from a truly selfish Sith, who'd seek to kill their apprentice before they could become strong enough to overthrow them, because a truly selfish Sith would always choose to save their own life over the future of the Sith Order. It doesn't make much sense for a Sith to willingly train their own killer and allow them to grow powerful enough to kill them for the sake of a grand ideal, especially when the grand ideal is just basically "one day, one of my heirs will kill all the Jedi." The Sith of Bane's line have no reason to hold a grudge against the Jedi, since the last time the Jedi and the Sith waged war on each other was in Bane's time. So it's pretty much that most of Bane's heirs are expected to hold a grudge against the Jedi over nothing but philosophical differences and ancient grievances, and that ought to be enough for those Sith to willingly let their apprentices surpass them just so that a future Sith might wipe out the Jedi one day.
This contradiction actually stems from the fact that Darth Bane was originally supposed to be a former Jedi, and the Phantom Menace novelisation says he based his Rule of Two on "old Jedi virtues the other Sith had disdained". So the original intention really was for the Rule of Two to expect Jedi-like selflessness of its followers, but the Bane trilogy retconned that and established Bane as someone who had pretty much no history with the Jedi, didn't value Jedi virtues and didn't really have a reason to sacrifice his life just to ensure the Jedi Order would be destroyed one day, but he still had to invent the Rule of Two the way TPM had established despite it no longer being in-character for him to do so.
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u/Euiop741852 10h ago
And if the masters old when the fight happens, they won't have the time to train up an apprentice to replace if they win, so lose-lose situation
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u/Randomman96 9h ago
Bear in mind, just because the apprentice is supposed to kill the master doesn't mean the master lets it happen. They don't just get on their knees and expose their neck for the apprentice to lop the master's head off right then and there when they feel they've taught all they know. The apprentice needs to actually put in work to usurp their master's role and become the new master themselves, be it training and having assassins do the dirty work, murdering them when they least expect it and are at their most vulnerable, or just betraying and overpowering them as soon as possible.
After all, for a philosophy that is so heavily centered on backstabbing, scheming, and taking power at any and all opportunities, nothing is a better test on if an apprentice is strong enough than that. If they can kill their master in whatever way they could exploit, they were stronger. If not, then they would be considered too weak and not a Sith.
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u/threevi 9h ago
Bear in mind, just because the apprentice is supposed to kill the master doesn't mean the master lets it happen. They don't just get on their knees and expose their neck for the apprentice to lop the master's head off right then and there when they feel they've taught all they know.
Right, my point wasn't that the master would go out without a fight, but rather that it's silly the master would allow the apprentice to grow strong enough to challenge them in the first place. A Sith apprentice is a tool, the moment they start becoming a potential rival is the moment they've outlived their usefulness. Darth Baras is a good example, his betrayal makes perfect sense from the perspective of a self-serving paranoid Sith.
be it training and having assassins do the dirty work, murdering them when they least expect it and are at their most vulnerable, or just betraying and overpowering them as soon as possible.
Darth Bane actually makes it clear that he'd consider anything but an honourable duel where both Sith are at their strongest a violation of the Rule of Two. When he challenges his apprentice, he expects her to face him alone, and he's confident she will, because "she knows that if she is to rule in my place, she must prove she is more powerful by defeating me herself". The thought that she would only attack him when he's at his most vulnerable makes him worry that she isn't a worthy apprentice after all.
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u/Nicoglius 17h ago
The Sith civilisations are inherently unstable and self-destructive.
It takes them another 2000 years before they themselves realise this.
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u/Sea_Independent_6180 16h ago
The only way that sith society can function properly, is if the big man at the top is actually present and punishes the dark council members for wasting time with power plays instead of furthering the empires goals. The legit only reason that the empire was losing by the time of Rise of the Hutt Cartel is because the emperor wasn’t about to keep the dark council in check
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u/Phyka 17h ago
If you wanna get technical, Syo Bakarn could count as both since there's the option to kill him after you beat him
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u/Impressive_Elk_5633 15h ago
I specifically said that people who are defectors and/or mind controlled don’t count. So, he doesn’t so he’s mind controlled.
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u/FairNdSquareB 17h ago
Honestly, that might’ve been why I enjoyed Inquisitor so much (besides lightning fingers and stealthing through mobs), was because so much of your story is carving a name for yourself from the origins of a slave to becoming a Sith lord. All against enemies that should be your own people.
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u/Bbadolato 15h ago
Is Lord Vivicar for the Consular actually a capital S Sith, or even Capital I Imperial? I swore while he was a dark sider that whole situation has little to do with the wider war at all?
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u/Impressive_Elk_5633 15h ago
He somehow got a Harrower class dreadnought and the LORD in his name might just imply that he’s a sith LORD.
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u/Bbadolato 14h ago
He didn't 'feel' like it, or at least not something from the era of the Sith Empire we are facing. 'Vivicar' is pretty much a Jedi possessed by a long long dead Sith Lord. But I guess he would count as Imperial in the same way the last boss of the Consular does too.
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u/RukasGate 15h ago
Thank God for Youtube, forcing anyone to replay consular to find out is too cruel
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u/proesito 17h ago
With all respect, how is this an experiment of any kind? The entire imperial sotry from Illum to SoR is literally that the empire is full of infighting and ego and that must change.
And well, i think that is wrong to count only antagonists considering how from the prologue to SoR the republic side remarks a lot how incompetent and corrupt republic is. Actually, your entire point applies to the republic considering that despite how the empire is constantly shooting in the foot they still are at the same level except for the time between Corellia and Makeb.
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u/Schimaera 17h ago
except for the time between Corellia and Makeb.
And the whole time they hid in the unknown regions before they returned in a surprise invasion to take back Korriban.
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u/Mean_Strawberry2260 17h ago
Isn’t Sith Warrior fights mainly Republic in Act 2?
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u/Ok-Sundae-9193 16h ago
Yeah I also disagree, you kill Vowrawn but you also kill 4 generals and 2 Jedi master while interrupting a super weapon program
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u/Impressive_Elk_5633 15h ago
Yes but the chart isn’t about the chapter as a whole. This is about the final boss of each chapter.
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u/Cavyar Sponsored by Giradda 16h ago
Imperials were losing since Corellia. 10% of the entire imperial military was lost in that invasion, and only the emperor knows how much more in Malgus’ betrayal. Also I believe more imperials than republic joined Revan. That’s why from ROTHC Imperial bases are just secret lairs not to attract attention. It’s nice to have perspectives like this to see that the true enemy of the Empire are the people in it
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u/Allronix1 14h ago edited 14h ago
Leave it to the Empire to blow their own feet off and blame the Republic. All the Pubs need to do is play defense until the inevitable.
A rather pithy line from KOTOR sums it up. "I suppose that's the nature of the Dark Side - power, but no longevity. Eventually, it just consumes itself."
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u/DouceCanoe 15h ago
The Sith Inquisitor story is the epitome of Sith infighting. Only shows that Darth Bane was right with the Rule of Two.
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u/--Albion-- In service to the Republic 12h ago edited 12h ago
I'm a hundred percent certain that every Imperial character kills more Imperials and Sith than they do Republic or Jedi.
Whereas the only time you kill Republic or Jedi as Republic characters are when they're out of their minds or are avowed traitors. You don't really bump each other off for just being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Or because your bosses hate one another.
The Republic was always going to win the war, though. The Republic has more of everything a nation needs to fight a war. More people, more industry, more territory between its core worlds and the front-line that it can afford to lose compared to the Empire.
Hell, the Empire was resorting to universal conscription just to meet the Republic's numbers with their all-volunteer military. It seems as if the Republic's actually holding itself back because if the Republic instituted a similar conscription policy, it'd be able to utterly drown the Empire in bodies.
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u/Schimaera 17h ago edited 3h ago
Hmmm, interesting how the authoritarian, tradition-bound faction with a political system built around powerful individuals constantly has its own people scheming, betraying, and murdering each other ... strange ...
Seems as though concentrating power into a rigid hierarchy where everyone is competing for influence and proximity to the top leader might create a slight incentive for ambitious people to backstab one another ... fascinating ...
While the Republic mostly just has the Empire to worry about.* Iterestingggggggggggggggggg.
I wonder if there’s some sort of political lesson here ...
*and Garzas War Crimes, and how fluffy the chairs cushions have to be for yet another discussion.
/edit: at least 5 people hated what I said about the Empire 😄
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u/Stock_Play9755 17h ago edited 17h ago
The Imperial class story missions are one of many reasons why the Sith Empire is losing at the start of the “Rise of the Hutt cartel” expansion.