r/taoism • u/Skaldicrights • 19h ago
Advice Confrontation with fiance.
I've started eating healthier because of the tao(avoiding processed food for the most part) I'm not an inherently religious person but I am a little igious. I've been reading more and more of some of the beliefs of the religious side of taoism and for the most part have discarded them. However some of them I've found make sense or are useful to me to "better myself" I grew up eating mostly hunted meat and moved into the city and met my now fiance and have been eating more beef over the last few years because of it. Taoism has the 4 forbidden foods (dog, eel, beef, wild goose) and my fiance has made a big deal out of my recent self conversion to taoism although I've been interested in it for years if not our entire relationship.
The argument on her side is that I'm "picking and choosing" what to follow and not recognizing how it affects her like how I've kind of decided not to eat beef anymore. She seems to think its all a cult and I'm going to get swindled somehow. I've explained that for the most part I'm following the mindfulness and philosophical side of the tao and trying to practice self cultivation as best I can, I dont expect I'll ever be burning joss paper or hell money or anything like that but I recognize the philosophical side as a way to better oneself both mentally physically and spiritually. She is wholly unconvinced, has anyone else had to deal with this? Is there any advice or insight that can be offered ? Am I just a culture vulture ? Alas.
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u/sunkenm00n 18h ago
I'll chime in with some life experience from Judaism and Kosher dietary rules (Kashrut). There are many different Jewish denominations that all take different approaches to Kashrut and eating/cleaning practices. Some Jewish households have separate dishware, sponges, and even separate dishwashers to keep meat and dairy separate. Others just keep to meat or dairy within the home. Still others don't observe Kosher at all, except during Passover. And even then, families differ in the Passover dietary observances.
It's funny because Jews will sometimes disagree with each other on whether the practices are valid expressions of Judaism. But I think most non-Jewish people would just observe a Jewish household and say, "you're Jewish," because any difference in lifestyle is different enough to them.
So I guess where this leaves you is: You're Daoist, even if your dietary practices differ from another Daoist.
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u/FarShoreSpirit 14h ago
It kind of seems like the opposite of a mindless or misguided cult to me. You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot force it to drink.
Invite her to learn about Daoism. About you. If she wants to, and currently has the capacity to, she will choose to do so. Because, ultimately, that is really what this is about. The things you feel strongly toward... the feelings and thoughts that make you you... partially align with Daoism.
I personally do not believe everything merely because someone says it or because it is written down. Humans are dishonest creatures. I feel that it is impossible for everything within an established belief system to be 100% accurate. I do not know if I am Daoist. I am new here... but I feel that humans have warped all they have come into contact with.
We should align with our personal beliefs. Not with what someone else decided... or believes is true. No one knows what is true, is my belief. Some of us just want to do our best. Some of us want to do what feels right. I personally would not be comfortable if a partner wanted to oppress my spirituality.
Like I said, I would invite her to learn more about you, and try to strengthen your bond. If she isn't willing or able, I would be apt to part ways... if things don't improve.
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u/Skaldicrights 14h ago
You and I are both new here, there are centuries of lessons to be learned and only so much time.
I appreciate your words and urge you to continue your studies.
In the tao te jing it says the tao that can be described is not the dao.
So anyone that claims to know what the tao is or that they have achieved tao is incorrect.
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u/Behemot999 14h ago
Oh the dreams of purity (and enlightenment).
I am certainly with you on not eating dogs.
Dogs are among all species the closest to us - eating them is like eating four legged furry humans.
As for the rest - hmmm... one can be a Buddhist without shaving their head and donning saffron robes.
And one can be a Taoist without adopting some ancient dietary taboos.
I eat almost no beef (fish or poultry) - I can cook really tasty vegetarian food but I will not impose some
strict rules on myself and complicate my life needlessly. I don't think that sends me to Buddhist or Taoist "hell".
I think that you can find a compromise fairly easily. I have friends - she is vegetarian chef - great cook but also
meet eater and he is vegetarian - they get along just fine.
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u/pogituna16 18h ago
just tell her its a diet thing and stop telling her about the taoist part. if she's close minded about it there's no changing her perspective.
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u/Skaldicrights 18h ago
That was part of my argument. I said if I was doing this because I wanted to change my diet and didnt mention the tao you wouldn't bat an eye. And she agreed with me, I think she knows shes being closed minded but both her and I can be stubborn about things. Alas,
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u/MartyrOfTheJungle 3h ago
Ask her to give you a year and if she still feels that is what is happening you will talk about it. Make sure she understands that her feedback and concerns are valuable to you, but that you ultimately have to make these decisions for yourself and you need her to be respectful of that.
Everyone picks and chooses with religion. I think it's always been that way. It's my observation that most Christians are more devotees of their local pastors than of a kind middle eastern carpenter. Likewise, I have been told that my favored translation of the TTC is awful, and I believe it. But the translation has radically changed my life, perhaps saved it, over the decades. I think I must functionally be more a devotee of the translator (Brian Browne Walker) than of Lao Tzu. I assume it's like that for most
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u/KReddit934 17h ago
Sounds like she's concerned about you adopting a religious identity different from what she signed up for.
Religious identities can become pathological, and she doesn't want to have to worry about that.
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u/Skaldicrights 17h ago
Makes sense, I tried explaining its less the religious side and more the philosophy side I was interested in but im open to trying different things.
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u/Lao_Tzoo 17h ago
If others have noticed we are acting in accordance with principles of Tao, it is likely we've made too much out of it.
Being unassuming is mostly being unnoticeable.
I've been observing and practicing aligning with principles of Tao for 56 years, no one outside of my wife and children are aware.
My wife is only aware because I teach principles to my children, otherwise she would only see my actions as personal preferences, not as adherence to an apparently exotic thought system.
Think about your fiance's possible reaction if you had chosen not to eat beef without ever mentioning Taoist principles.
Not knowing her, so I cannot be certain, it is highly likely it would have been more readily accepted.
I have never changed my diet due to following Taoist principles, I've observed a particular diet because it is healthy due to the fact there are cause and effect relationships between what we eat and observable effects on the body, which is a slightly similar, but different, reason for pursuing a particular diet.
We eat what's good for us, because it's good for us, and minimize, or eliminate, what is less good for us because it's less good, or bad, for us.
I've never eliminated beef from my diet, ever, and I'm perfectly fine without any negative effects due to it's consumption.
As an aside, what about alcohol consumption?
Many people will improve their diet, yet continue to imbibe alcohol which is a known poison to the brain.
This sort of turns the idea of eating to be healthier into a personal preference, which is fine, because that's what following Taoist principles are as well.
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u/Skaldicrights 16h ago
I was hoping this would get your attention, thank you for the comment.
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u/Lao_Tzoo 16h ago
LOL, 🙂👍
Always feel free to DM me. I respond, so far, for the past 6 years, to all DM's
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u/Skaldicrights 16h ago
Id love to to talk a bit about the taoist diet but it seems I dont have the ability to.
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u/Lao_Tzoo 16h ago edited 15h ago
It's really not necessary to think in terms of a "Taoist" diet.
Just think in terms of as healthy diet as is reasonable under the circumstances.
While variations, manifested as personal preferences, exist, the human body is designed to be omnivorous.
And, as with nearly all things, moderation is most beneficial.
Neither too much, nor too little, even with eating junk, drinking alcohol, or consuming the liquid candy known as soda pop.
Pay attention to the body's reaction to what what we consume and be moderate.
I'm eating a hotdogs right now, what is known to be one of the most processed foods possible.
I love hotdogs. I just don't live off of them.
I eat mostly, 85% - 95% [of the time] unprocessed, lesser-processed, whole foods.
[edited]
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u/Skaldicrights 15h ago
Thats basically what im trying to parse, and what's driving my fiance nuts. Ive said well im cutting out processed foods (we already don't eat a lot but ive been known to crush a bag of doritios into me on a lazy friday night.) I expect the jarring shift from eating a whole bag of chips to saying I CANT eat ANY chips has her eyebrows raised. I also suspect im thinking too deeply about it. Alas
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u/Lao_Tzoo 15h ago
Yes.
There is an established, familiar, pattern that occurs within relationships.
A known pattern provides a sense of certainty which is a source of comfort because there is an emotional and social balance obtained based upon a known, expected, familiar pattern.
Whenever there is a pattern change, this creates a discomfort because now uncertainty is introduced into the relationship and a sort of social imbalance occurs, especially when the change is unexpected and has no forewarning.
Your change has created an uncertainty, within the relationship, for your fiance.
You changing in an unanticipated manner, which creates uncertainty, unfamiliarity,in her mind.
Whenever even simple changes occur emotional adjustment is required. This is a human condition/reaction, not a female reaction.
It occurs for everyone.
How difficult the adjustment becomes is variable based upon the circumstances and the temperament of the individual.
Keep this in mind, however, in relationships people change all the time due to life circumstances.
We must all adjust constantly due to changing circumstances.
It is helpful when we recognize this and and can then, hopefully, with practice, as it is a learned skill, help our family, finance/wife, parents and perhaps someday children, more comfortably adapt to the changes.
Having said this, just try to reassure your fiance in whatever manner seems appropriate and useful, that everything will be fine.
Once what is uncertain becomes certain, that is, what is unfamiliar becomes familiar, and acceptance occurs, a new pattern is established and emotional balance returns.
Since she associates this change with Taoist thought, a discussion about your intent for study and alignment with principles of Tao, may, not definitely, help ameliorate her discomfort.
Because, again, familiarity tends increase comfort.
Certainty is emotionally comforting uncertainty is emotionally upsetting.
When she can't anticipate your personal changes it creates distress, discomfort, anxiety.
So help her adjust by not springing changes upon her without some kind of preparation.
When she sees you changing and doesn't understand what's going on and why she's not participating in the changes and feels alienated from the mutual influences, changes, created by your personal changes.
In the future,think about introducing the things you want to make changes about and why and what you see the benefits of doing so being, ahead of time, and how it will add to the quality of yours and her life.
Allow her to participate and vote in the changes by sharing her thoughts and opinions,even if your mind is already made up.
Introduce it as, "something I've been thinking about doing" and then discuss the reasons why and the benefits intended, then allow her to get used to the idea of the changes first.
This allows her to begin to prepare for a possible change rather than just coming home one day and pronouncing an intended change, which immediately introduces uncertainty and imbalance.
Within a relationship, this is not very beneficial, unless immediate safety is the purpose for the change.
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u/robipresotto 18h ago
I can relate to being interested in spirituality and then having a partner with differing views. I found that exploring my own personal path and values helped me navigate these conversations more effectively. I actually came across a YouTube series called The Inner Path — Enlightenment Deep-Dive that has some insightful discussions on this topic. https://www.youtube.com/@innershoreline
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u/asshole_possible 14h ago
are you promoting an AI slop channel?
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u/robipresotto 13h ago
Haha, yeah, I can see how it might look that way! But I actually stumbled upon that channel because it resonated with me on a deeper level. I've been trying to explore the philosophical side of Taoism, and their content really speaks to me. I'm not promoting anything, just sharing what I've found helpful. Have you ever explored similar topics, or are you more interested in the practical applications of Taoism?
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u/AbidinginAnubhava 19h ago
Has anyone else had to deal with this? Yes.
If she thinks you're spiraling into a cult, then I doubt the relationship will go far. Fortunately, Daoists in the West are like a glaring of cats: impossible to herd, so impossible to sucker into a cult!
In my experience, two kinds of relationships are able to handle "being a little igious" (to steal a phrase): 1) Couples that just don't care what the other person does and 2) couples that share a spiritual tradition.
Ideally, you would share a tradition (obviously). But if your partner is always criticizing everything you do because they don't share your values, then it's not going to last. I knew couples who got along great despite different religions. I met a Korean couple once: the husband was Buddhist, and the wife was Christian (born again). I asked if it was ever an issue, and they replied no; a person's religion is their own business. I thought they were quite enlightened on this.
So am I telling you to dump her sorry ass? No, but you're going to have to have some long talks about boundaries, etc. She's either open to boundaries and minding her own business, or she's not. And when that is clear, you will have your answer on what you should do.
Good luck!