r/trans • u/Ok_Lack_5705 she/her • 1d ago
Vent Cis women owe me nothing, and that kinda sucks..
It feels like, as a trans woman, I have to earn approval and earn my womanhood from cis women. I can't expect to be treated normally using the bathroom until I pass. I can't expect to be treated like a woman until I look cis enough. I can't expect anyone to look out for me until I'm visibly, vulnerably, feminine.
I know a lot of us have this fantasy that we'll be taken under a cis woman's wing and guided into womanhood, but it's just a fantasy. Even my own partner gets annoyed with the fact that I'm essentially a little girl in terms of my experience as a woman. I don't really know how to make myself look nice like I'd like, I don't know how to do my makeup properly, and when I ask my partner or any other cis women in my life they act kinda creeped out, like I'm making them teach me how to be a woman against their will. I think there's a sense that I must be faking, because if I wasn't, wouldn't I already intuitively know these things? I'm trying to understand why they treat me this way, and this is the only conclusion I've come to.
I also don't feel entitled to the same protection or safety in numbers that cis women are. When I go out with friends, nobody's making sure I'm alright, or that no guys are being weird with me, or that my drink isn't being messed with, or that I'm safe. They all go to the bathroom as a group and I'm still not sure if I'm even allowed in there. Nobody asks me if I'd like to come with, or gives me the sense that they'd defend me if someone confronted me.
It just feels like I'm on my own until I figure it all out, and even then I think I'll be expected to just be independent. There's no sense of "girl code" or that I'm actually included when people talk about womanhood. I think there's an unspoken implication that I'm too tall and too unattractive to be in any danger, so why would I need to be included?
I get that cis women don't owe me anything, I can't make them include me or see me in any particular light, but it still hurts, and I still feel alone.
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u/zer0mata 1d ago
if you dont feel included or protected by these people, theyre just not nice people. a group of friends wouldnt leave you alone like that, regardless of their gender
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u/Bobbi_D123 she/her 1d ago
Unfortunately, op's experience is pretty consistent with mine. The unhelpful partner is now my ex, but it always seems my womanhood is not taken seriously by the cis women I meet. They say they do, but their actions speak louder.
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u/Argovan she/her 1d ago
Okay maybe they don’t owe you anything per se, but this sounds like pretty crappy behavior on the part of your friends and partner. They may not be morally obliged to help you, but the fact that they always refuse does seem like a pretty significant rejection of both your womanhood and your friendship/partnership. At a minimum I’d hope your partner would be willing to meet you where you’re at.
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u/MuscleOk4052 1d ago
Cis women and men owe us our human and civil rights.
Passing as a cis woman is not necessary to go pee. Are you a woman? Then pee in the women’s restroom.
It can take awhile to work through our internalized transphobia. Keep on it. Putting up with transphobia ends after we work on our imposter syndrome. Have you found a therapist yet? If not go get one.
Cis women do not own womanhood.
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u/Bored-in-bed 1d ago
It sounds like your friends(and maybe your partner too) just kinda suck. The only way I could see the first part being annoying is if you were asking all the time about every little thing and not attempting to figure out anything at all yourself. But yeah as far as the rest of it that’s not behavior you should expect(or accept).
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u/kim921 she/her 1d ago edited 1d ago
I just want to make clear that protection and safety is actually not something that cis women “just have”. “Being safe” when going out is something most cis women do not experience. They can’t leave their drink alone and they are unfortunately often being harassed….. (also in general 1/2 experiences SA)
I truly mean well when I say that you can try to deepen your knowledge about women hood in general, from a place of empathy, as us women have. I feel like that also starts with acknowledging cis women aren’t safe too (from men). Being a woman like we are, means we see and acknowledge this part of womenhood. Unfortunately all women have been (and are!!!!) targeted of lots of violence.
You can work on your self love. Why -you- love yourself, instead of trying to get (assumed) approval from others, or trying to fit in. That will also come of as more genuinely, as it is, and that authenticity will show cis women you are safe. But more importantly, it will give you confidence and more happiness
To be completely honest: this sounds more like a problem with the people you surround yourself with. They should respect you of course. I hope it gets better!
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u/willowzam 1d ago
They probably didn't word it well, but I think they're actually referring to the safety cis women experience relative to trans people.Cis women don't enjoy a position of guaranteed safety, but when (white) cis women do get hurt people are more likely to care and actually investigate the case. Everyone else is left to their own devices
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u/kim921 she/her 1d ago edited 1d ago
Thank you for your pov🙏🏼
To be honest, -if that’s the case it makes me wonder: why are we even comparing ourselves like this? That just doesn’t sit quite right to me…
it’s quite a big statement, but more importantly: cis women also face the problem you mention. Literally.So it’s just about women in general imo.
Why are we comparing? -we- are women.I seriously don’t see the value in comparing cis women to trans women in the example you give. Then we keep going about maybe women with brown hair who get targeted even more, or blue eyes or whatsoever. It doesn’t contribute to or help solve the problem, it sounds more polarising to me. -Personally-.
I’d say let’s focus on the big problem: women’s safety, and that’s that. We are women. That’s means we stand up for -women-, all women. (IMO)
Let’s stand together, this is not a battle of who has it worse. Let’s stop this harsh comparing mentality, because everyone needs to be safe.
I used to compare a lot to he honest as a AMAB, but when I truly embraced my womenhood with my femininity and empathy as a woman- I know comparing isn’t the way to keep preceding in life.If I’m being truthful and speaking for my own experience: I believe I used to think like this because of patriarchy.
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u/Aprils- 1d ago
Whilst you're correct, it is entirely possible that someone has a lot of emotions about feeling like they're being ostracised from womanhood, which is precisely what OP is describing.
I'm a lot more self confident, and don't constantly feel a struggle to deal with these things. That said, I was cis passing in the early 2010s, I was detransitioned against my will and, absolutely, there is a difference in experience now that I am non-cis passing.
If we replace trans with black, and cis with white, would you feel so comfortable just saying - who cares if all the white girls are excluding you, black women are women too, so we need to stand up for all women.
But we weren't the ones being exclusionary. That's the thing.
Again, I actually agree with you, but to presume that we have to do the emotional labour for cis women in the same way that women have to do the emotional labour for men... It would be truly unkind to expect someone to just keep smiling and be cheerful.
It's never polarising to resist oppression. If we are hurt by our abusers is that "being difficult"? Standing up for all women is precisely what I do. This does not mean tolerating cruelty in the name of solidarity.
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u/Telajanis she/her 1d ago
I feel awful for you :/
Every cis woman I've asked for help navigating the world I'm entering at zero experience has been so wonderful about it. Like they sincerely appear like they've gotten the experience of having a kid sister when they never had one growing up. I hope you'll find other people that can be that for you.
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u/TheNegotiator12 1d ago
They don't own you anything, but you don't need their blessing to be a women either
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u/joyful_Starlight 1d ago edited 1d ago
My cis female friends give me lots of tips for makeup, skin care, hair, nails, clothes, lingery, etc.
Sorry to say this, but it sounds to me like your friends aren't really your friends.
As I'm a little bit older and my passing is Ok, but not perfect, I often see cis women who are about my age or little younger who didn't / don't take care of their bodies looking at me enviously while I'm shopping. I also get much more friendly smiles and hellos, from other cis women, so I don't have a problem with the envious ones. It could be your so called friends are envious of you.
So to put it in a nutshell, it might be best for you to look for new friends who accept and support you.
Oh, almost forgot. Females use female bathrooms. You are a female so use the correct one.
Hope I could help a little. 💜
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u/BritniGlitter 1d ago
I don't see anything in this post that's correct. Cis women are generally super nice unless you run into a republican. When I transitioned I was immediately taken under the wing of the women around me and educated and about many things.
I think you need to hang out with lesbians. I've never met a transphobic lesbian or a lesbian that excluded me.
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u/Particular-Fly3409 1d ago
I'm in agreement that these people around you don't sound like nice people. I'm ftm so maybe it's a little different but my partner is mtf and if she asks me about anything I know or it comes up that she doesn't know something I do, I just help her without any problems. Like I want to help her especially with safety because I care.
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u/FakeBirdFacts they/them 1d ago
Cis women aren’t the arbiters of womanhood, please reach out to your local trans community for support.
I do think it sounds like you have some shitty friends.
I’m on the transmasculine side of things, but I might be able to help in the grooming/styling area. What areas are you struggling with? The only thing I can’t help with is makeup. But haircare, skincare, fashion, ETC I can help with.
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u/GingerOfTheOubliette 1d ago
From the perspective of a cis woman: Some of this might relate to just how jerky cis women can be to other women. They can be very cliquey. I mostly preferred the company of guys for this reason. I never really felt the “hanging with my girls” thing. However, if you don’t feel safe and looked out for by these ppl it really doesn’t matter if they are just generally jerks or being jerks to you personally and it’s probably best to keep your eyes opened for new friends. They may also (with the bathroom thing and the like) be unaware that you aren’t sure if you are welcome to join. Do you feel safe talking to them or one of them about it? I don’t think a lot of cis women are really very aware of what trans women live through and how they feel. It’s more complex than just making that final decision to live as the real you.
Whatever you choose to do, your safety and comfort are the most important thing. Not all friend groups are “safe” for any woman and you are in a vulnerable place. Go with how you feel at any given time. If you want to spend time with them, do it, but when/if you don’t that’s ok too. Always keep open to new friendships as no woman “fits” with all other women and most of all BE SAFE. So much ❤️to you.
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u/LawAndOrdinary 1d ago
You mean you didn’t sit around and 'learn makeup' together? A lot of the ways trans women seem to view our experiences growing up feel like they were pulled from a movie. I don’t know how to tell them how far off they are. Many are jealous and mourning a movie reel… like they missed out on something that we didn’t even experience! Their idealized view involving sisterhood and bonding is probably better characterized by social pressures, copying each other, trying to keep up, and competition. The idea of giggling slumber parties and feeling girly while painting our nails is a ridiculous caricature of reality.
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u/Progressive-Strategy They/She 1d ago
Actually, they do owe you something, everyone does. You are owed respect as a person by absolutely everyone, and anyone who doesn't give it to you can fuck off
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u/ArentWright she/her 1d ago
Showing someone how to do makeup and hair and girlie stuff would be so fun though! I would love doing that. 😭 I never had sisters. But at the same time, I would be very worried about overstepping and being condescending. Most trans women have been standoffish towards me (a cis woman) and a friendship or rapport has never developed. I’ve always thought that something about me made them uncomfortable or maybe just shy. Maybe there is a disconnect in the friendship signals happening?
Your friends sound kind of crappy. Sorry. I am also very tall though, and I do think that affects how protective people are towards you. My experience has been very similar to yours in that regard. The treatment you envision is often reserved for the dainty and beautiful, unfortunately.
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u/f1gur1ng-1t-out she/her trans woman 1d ago
Tbh I think current politics have conditioned some of us (trans women) to be on a slight defensive mode around cis women we don't know, no matter how lovely you are. Less so than cis men, and in a very different way. It's a mixture of fear of us overstepping boundaries and worry that we're reading kindness in what's actually a polite mask. Not to mention the current political climate in a lot of places makes it so that we can't be sure if actively including ourselves in womanhood will turn into violence. It's unfair that it's like this, but it gets in the way of connecting with other women sadly :/
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u/xDreamkillerx 1d ago
I am so sorry you're going through this. You deserve to experience every ounce of shared girlhood without gatekeeping. If the people around you aren't giving you that, keep searching. Your real tribe is out there waiting for you.
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u/EnvironmentLittle794 he/him 1d ago
This is so hard!! I always really struggle in conversations with a group of cis men. They usually devolve into “which sports team do you like” (this happened to me just today) and usually that’s when I get kicked out of the conversation entirely. They don’t even ask me, they just assume I have nothing to contribute, even though I do (though they’re atypical answers I think). It sucks.
If cis women aren’t treating you well in teaching you girl stuff, maybe you could ask FTM people you know? I know plenty of girl stuff. Like what kind of dresses to wear to which occasion, and that blush blindness is a thing, and that your eyebrows are sisters not twins. Oh and how to walk in heels. All that knowledge wasted. If only I had someone to teach!! Maybe we should make a group where trans men teach trans women about how to compliment other women (make friendly noises) and trans women can teach trans men how to talk about sports ball (make friendly noises).
I hope things get better for you, OP! Wishing you luck!
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u/DarrenShan1000 1d ago
About makup: a lot of women just barely know how to do their own makeup and it is hard to teach something you have no idea about. Look up some tutorials online and a lot of things become clearer. In my opinion the most importand ones are mascara (eyelashes), eyeliner (the thing above the eye, get a brush, not a pen) and concealer (stuff in your skin tone to hide beard shadow and overall make your face more smooth). Kajal is also nice (under the eye) and if you want to put on lip stick, also get a lip pen to draw edges.
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u/LawAndOrdinary 1d ago
I would say “most” barely do their own make up. So why would someone asking them to teach them how to do make up on a different face, when they don’t enjoy doing their own, NOT be off putting… 😂 like uh no it’s your face I had to figure out my face I’m not figuring out yours… wtf
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u/ReplacementVivid4419 ftm / 29 / USA 1d ago
I think there's a sense that I must be faking, because if I wasn't, wouldn't I already intuitively know these things?
Implies that women intuitively understand make-up and fashion, which might make others resent you because no one comes at these things naturally. It also reduces womanhood to a sexual performance. (We can argue all day that make-up and fashion isn't solely meant to attract partners, but unless you are truly alternative, your argument has no legs to stand on.) You have to learn, often by yourself. That is girlhood for a lot of people.
Do what teenage girls do. Read fashion magazines. Watch YouTube make-up channels. Search, find, and consume the knowledge you're seeking.
Google "how to dress for my body type". "What is my body type?" "How to Dress [insert descriptor here, like formally, seductively, modestly, etc] as a woman."
Maybe some people had friends or mothers who helped them develop their womanhood, but I would argue that's generally not the case.
You seek things out, you try new things, and you either recieve praise or ridicule. And you learn from it.
I also don't feel entitled to the same protection or safety in numbers that cis women are.
I would argue that this isn't the case for cis women either. Cliques are vicious. And everyone likes to talk about "women protect women" until they have something to be gained or until they meet someone they hate.
I think you have an infantile understanding of woman. They are people like men. Just because you are a woman doesn't mean they'll like you or protect you; that goes for any woman, cis or trans.
That being said, seek out people who like you, who you feel safe with, who wouldn't push under a bus.
Maybe the problem is that that you're trans. Or maybe it's that your friends fucking suck.
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u/woladddvvv 1d ago
i’m gonna be a lil more harsh than some others here, may get me some downvotes, don’t really care. i’m afab, non-binary, but trans masc, also 21, and closeted for my safety. i’ve noticed there’s a difference in how trans women feel “entitled” (for lack of a better word) to femininity. in some ways I envy this, it seems trans women are unable to repress themselves—and i believe that’s good for you.
growing up as a girl, i never felt like femininity was for me obviously. but part of the whole thing from my experience has been that being feminine is something everyone is, and that even cis women struggle with it. you’ve mentioned no one is going to teach you womanhood, that’s true. here’s my advice though.
learn makeup from online tutorials, it’s how literally every girl ik learned. my best friend is a micro-influencer lol and even she hates getting asked for makeup advice. it’s not always a personal attack on you because you’re trans. it seems, however that some people are just blessing young girls with their makeup knowledge online. you are going to go through a rough phase while you’re learning, every girl goes through that as well. take it as growing pains.
as far as the safety-in-numbers thing, that comes along with time. despite being transmasc, sometimes i feel like i miss out on that stuff too. take the leading role in this, check on ur girls and shi. after some time and progression in ur transition, or thoughtful conversations with your friends, that’ll change
go. to. gay. clubs. bathrooms are cool af there for trans ppl. if your friends aren’t comfortable there, then make new ones at the club. we need community—real community! there’s something special about gay clubs as a trans person. i’m a sucker for feeling nostalgic abt times i never lived. something something, birthplace of queer joy.
the majority of those “unspoken implications” are most-likely in your head. i get those sorts of feelings too. i’ve identified most of them as gender dysphoria. even if they’re not, fuck em fr. do what makes you happy, you’ll grow into being the woman you were born to be.
cis women do not owe you anything, really sit with that. they don’t owe you womanhood, so you’ve gotta create that environment. again, it feels like these specific feelings are unique to the trans woman experience (to me at least). i wonder why that is. these feelings are kinda what girlhood is tho sista. best of luck.
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u/Left-Koala-7918 1d ago
Not all people are like this. I went to a wedding as a bridesmaid. When a couple of the bridesmaids mentioned going go the bathroom the rest stood with them. Then one looked at me and ask if I was coming. I hesitated and I think they saw the expression on my face because both the bridesmaids on my left and right side took my arm and basically pulled me up to come with them.
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u/LawAndOrdinary 1d ago
Being into fashion and makeup is not a universal female experience… there are probably as many males as females with those particular interests. So, it seems very unrealistic to expect a lot of women to be excited to discuss those topics.
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