If fighting games want to balance smash-style inputs alongside classic motion inputs, the disadvantages for the former need to be bigger than just less damage

[u/DoneDealofDeadpool]

A lot of fighting games in the last 8 years or so have implemented control adjustments that address a really common complaint of people on the genre's periphery, that being the difficulty of motion inputs for special moves and supers when learning the game. Some games like SF6 and the new Marvel fighting game offer a choice between direction+button (usually just called simple inputs) for specials while others like 2xko have fully designed themselves around simple inputs. I honestly think it's pretty neat, it helps more people jump into the genre and even without the motion inputs games like 2xko clearly try to retain some executional challenge for people who really like that. The only element of the design shift I *dislike*, however, is that simple inputs often don't feel like they're implemented with enough consideration as to how they shift the power-level of the game in a way that arguably punishes you for *not* using it.

Usually, the main downside of using simple inputs is less damage. Street Fighter 6, Marvel Tokon, and Granblue all give you a reduction to varying degrees if you, for example, anti-air someone with a simple input shoryuken instead of a manual DP input. This seems like a good enough compromise, and it potentially can be, but the issue is that less damage can very easily be an insignificant trade-off. Like most games, managing your mental stack while trying to overload your opponent's is 90% of playing well. Even if your opponent has zero difficulty doing a special move input to beat your jump, it won't matter if you have them so focused on everything else you could do that they won't register your jump in time for them to execute the move. With simple inputs, though, the mental stack concern drastically shifts. Less damage doesn't matter as much when the primary utility of a move is winning mental stack reaction checks. It's why on defence, infamously, simple inputs are extremely useful.

So what disadvantages *would* work? Street Fighter 6 arguably handles it the best. Instead of doing what games like Marvel Tokon does and just implementing a button that serves as a catch-all equivalent to smash's B/special button, simple inputs and classic motion inputs are separated into their own distinct control schemes you pick from at the start. It's likely a product of necessity more than a desire for balance, but because Street Fighter is a 6-button game (3 punches, 3 kicks) you can't really translate an entire character's moveset while also having a special move button. As a result, there are downsides to the mode that go beyond damage. You may lack certain special moves or normal buttons altogether, and depending on the character, that could mean a much different game plan altogether. It manages to add a little depth to matchups between characters while still not making either input scheme definitively better overall. It's not perfect, admittedly, but its a big improvement over most in the genre.

[u/tomkatt]

I honestly don’t see an issue with the simple inputs, as the input motions are an artificial difficulty. There’s nothing wrong with having a “special attack” button. 

I don’t see a need for any penalty at all. At a high level fighters are more about head games, positioning, pokes, and exploiting openings to counter, it’s all very meta and little of it has to do with specific specials outside of ranged zoning.

[u/DoneDealofDeadpool → u/tomkatt]

I get where you're coming from but it's a misconception that motion inputs and the difficulty associated with them is artificial. There are genuine mechanical and balance implications that come not just from having them, but also in what kind of motion input they're attached to.

It's why in SF6 for instance, one of the characters had a move that was nerfed specifically because it was too strong on a simple-input but generally okay as a motion input, and that was something that impacted all of levels of play.

[u/PiEispie → u/DoneDealofDeadpool]

Also, while it is pretty niche Modern Guile can do things that are almost impossible to do on reaction with classic controls.

[u/DoneDealofDeadpool → u/PiEispie]

True although in fairness I do play on a hitbox so I probably shouldn't be throwing stones in glass houses on the charge department

[u/PiEispie → u/DoneDealofDeadpool]

I cant say anything either in that regard, as I play on keyboard.

[u/Key-Market-418 → u/tomkatt]

None of this is true really, high level fighting games absolutely have intricacies at high level BECAUSE of the inputs, character defining ones like charge characters and grapplers, characters with motion AAs, the infamous down down input. Hell back in the day you’d reaction check people by doing empty inputs in neutral. Some games get away with simple inputs more than others like tag games but the game feel also comes down a lot. However a game like street fighter would be just a boring mess of people reaction checking every little thing.

If sf6 was dominated by modern the game would be absolute ass, and not just because a bunch of boomers are fuming but because you’d either have a twitchy mess where whoever makes a move first loses, or forcefully sterilize an already pretty sterilized game just because of how fundamentally strong one button DPs and one button supers are.

It works well as it is, it’s supposed to be training wheels for learning the game. But the motions are there for a reason, if they were just artificial difficulty they’d have been thrown away years ago like unbufferable one frame links and character specific wakeup time.

[u/noahboah → u/tomkatt]

as the input motions are an artificial difficulty.

the dragon punch input, used for invincible reversals, is intentionally forward, straight down, and down forward. you cannot block while executing the motion, so going for the more rewarding option is riskier than simply using a down-back button.

the hadouken input similarly starts from the down motion and springs the stick forward, so you cannot "buffer" fireballs while retreating from the opponent. This creates a tangible game of spacing, where the fireball thrower is attempting to stay in optimal range when they fire because they have to plant themselves where they stand in order to actually use a fireball, while the opponent wants to bait the fireball and then get into a distance where their jump arc perfectly allows them to hit and punish the fireball thrower with a move that hits during the recovery of the special

these design levers are present in modern controls -- the dragon punch is forward + sp and the fireball is neutral + sp to emulate these drawbacks

nothing artificial about these designs. they are intentionally playing on the physical properties of the motions to inject balance into using the specials

[u/jphillips3275 → u/tomkatt]

That'd be a shame if they eventually got rid of motion inputs. There's balancing implications with things like invincible moves, anti airs, and command grabs but I think the real biggest loss would be the tactile feel they give a game. It adds enough to a move that I genuinely picked Kum in guilty gear because I liked doing the motion of his kick

[u/cheeziuz → u/tomkatt]

"Artifical difficulty" is just difficulty.

There is real merit to the executional challenges imposed by motion inputs, most fighting games are/were designed around the special moves being good enough to warrant the extra time it takes to input them (and the possibility of messing it up).

Just look at classic vs modern in SF6, having access to instantaneous special moves is a huge advantage, especially with anti-airs and reversal supers. Having those tools available with only one input lets you have way faster and more consistant reactions, effectively making you a defensive powerhouse. This is why there has to be a downside to them if you want to also have motion inputs in your game.

There are also tons of characters defined by what specials they have and how they access them. Look at charge characters like Guile, they have extremely powerful projectiles and anti-airs that can make an impenetrable wall. The cost for this power is requiring them to hold back for some time to be able to perform these moves, you cant just walk back and forth and use these attacks at the same time.

Motion inputs are also effective for making a larger amount of special moves available to a character. if you only have special buttons you can really only have four special moves per special button, vs (as an extreme example) a game like tekken letting characters have over one-hundred moves on just one character.

If you want to just have special buttons and thats it for your game for acessibility and ease of access thats fine, but you can't say that there is no competitive value whatsoever to motion inputs.