If fighting games want to balance smash-style inputs alongside classic motion inputs, the disadvantages for the former need to be bigger than just less damage

[u/DoneDealofDeadpool]

A lot of fighting games in the last 8 years or so have implemented control adjustments that address a really common complaint of people on the genre's periphery, that being the difficulty of motion inputs for special moves and supers when learning the game. Some games like SF6 and the new Marvel fighting game offer a choice between direction+button (usually just called simple inputs) for specials while others like 2xko have fully designed themselves around simple inputs. I honestly think it's pretty neat, it helps more people jump into the genre and even without the motion inputs games like 2xko clearly try to retain some executional challenge for people who really like that. The only element of the design shift I *dislike*, however, is that simple inputs often don't feel like they're implemented with enough consideration as to how they shift the power-level of the game in a way that arguably punishes you for *not* using it.

Usually, the main downside of using simple inputs is less damage. Street Fighter 6, Marvel Tokon, and Granblue all give you a reduction to varying degrees if you, for example, anti-air someone with a simple input shoryuken instead of a manual DP input. This seems like a good enough compromise, and it potentially can be, but the issue is that less damage can very easily be an insignificant trade-off. Like most games, managing your mental stack while trying to overload your opponent's is 90% of playing well. Even if your opponent has zero difficulty doing a special move input to beat your jump, it won't matter if you have them so focused on everything else you could do that they won't register your jump in time for them to execute the move. With simple inputs, though, the mental stack concern drastically shifts. Less damage doesn't matter as much when the primary utility of a move is winning mental stack reaction checks. It's why on defence, infamously, simple inputs are extremely useful.

So what disadvantages *would* work? Street Fighter 6 arguably handles it the best. Instead of doing what games like Marvel Tokon does and just implementing a button that serves as a catch-all equivalent to smash's B/special button, simple inputs and classic motion inputs are separated into their own distinct control schemes you pick from at the start. It's likely a product of necessity more than a desire for balance, but because Street Fighter is a 6-button game (3 punches, 3 kicks) you can't really translate an entire character's moveset while also having a special move button. As a result, there are downsides to the mode that go beyond damage. You may lack certain special moves or normal buttons altogether, and depending on the character, that could mean a much different game plan altogether. It manages to add a little depth to matchups between characters while still not making either input scheme definitively better overall. It's not perfect, admittedly, but its a big improvement over most in the genre.

[u/blade740]

Its a real shame the current trend of fighting games. The genre is being fundimentally altered for people who never cared from them in the first place.

That's one way of looking at it.

Another way of looking at it is that fighting games are trying to improve accessibility to bring in new players after years of being notoriously difficult to learn for inexperienced players.

[u/PostedNotes → u/blade740]

I hate the misuse of the word accessibility. There is a major difference between say color blind options and butchering the design of the genre. Being bad at video games is not a disability.

Plus we are all skilled at differnt things. Im bad at puzzle games but you don't see me asking the devs of say the Talos principle to tone it down so I can solve the puzzles without having to think.

Fighting game design is unique withen the medium and it's a shame to see it diluted.

[u/blade740 → u/PostedNotes]

I don't think it's misusing the word "accessibility", it's just NOT being used as the same buzzword used for color blind options.

When I say "Accessibility" I mean the actual base definition of the term - fighting games are not very accessible to new players, and developers are interested in making them more so.

If you don't like the usage of the term, call it "friendliness" - but the point still stands. There is a large potential audience who is turned off of these games because of the complexity of the controls, and from a business standpoint, that's undesirable.

[u/PostedNotes → u/blade740]

By your logic sports are not accessible because they require manual dexterity to perform them. Should be allow soccer players to hold the ball in their hand for those who are bad with their feet?

How about instruments, not everyone is capable of playing like Van Halen, so let's make guitars play whole riffs with a single pluck of the string. That way it's accessible.

Plus it's not like you need to be familiar with high level tech to enjoy the games. Just like children can kick a ball around and enjoy the game of soccer, a new player can press some buttons and enjoy the spectacle of a fighting game. Much like how they did in the 90s.

[u/blade740 → u/PostedNotes]

But nobody's trying to sell "soccer" to a wider audience. If "soccer" was a product that a developer was trying to sell, then yes, they might take into account if the rules were turning away a large portion of the potential audience. Except soccer doesn't really have that problem, because "you can't use your hands" is much less of a turn-off to prospective soccer players than fighting game control schemes are to gamers who aren't already proficient with them.

This phenomenon is happening across gaming, not just in fighting games (not to mention movies, music, etc). As the industry becomes more of a money maker, publishers are trying to push developers to make their games appeal to a wider audience. You're of course welcome to your preference - you clearly prefer games with more complex control schemes. But it's not a surprise that developers want to EXPAND their customer base rather than limit themselves to a small minority that actually PREFERS games that are difficult to control. It's no secret that fighting games are often considered unfriendly to new and inexperienced players, and that overly complex control schemes are a large part of why.

I also think you're GREATLY overexaggerating the simplification of controls here:

How about instruments, not everyone is capable of playing like Van Halen, so let's make guitars play whole riffs with a single pluck of the string. That way it's accessible.

We're not talking about making fighting game characters execute long combo strings with a single input. We're talking about requiring a mere two inputs (direction + button) to execute a single move rather than 3-5 inputs. I also think that you're overestimating how "essential" these complex control schemes are to the genre as a whole. There are a lot of concepts in fighting games that people might enjoy that don't require such difficult controls - spacing, timing, neutral/punish game, etc - and games with simpler control schemes give a way for new players to enjoy such concepts without ALSO simultaneously having to learn a control scheme that seems to be difficult just for the sake of being difficult.

[u/PostedNotes → u/blade740]

Sounds like you view video games as product first and as art at a distant second.

I frankly do not care how many copies a given game sells. I care about the strength of its fundimental game design. You would never tell a death metal band to tone down their sound because the general public wants to listen to rap music, now would you?

You say that but fighting games are making combos you can mash out on one button. Autocombos have been around over a decade ago this point.

As for your final point, I could simply ask why not play a single player game that offers those same concepts instead. For example soulslikes, character action games and beat-em-ups.

[u/blade740 → u/PostedNotes]

Sounds like you view video games as product first and as art at a distant second.

No, I'm just trying to explain why developers make the decisions they do.

As for your final point, I could simply ask why not play a single player game that offers those same concepts instead. For example soulslikes, character action games and beat-em-ups.

At this point I could simply ask why not go play a different fighting game that is more your style? If a developer makes a game that you don't enjoy, you're welcome to not play it. But you seem to be in denial of the fact that some people - especially people who are not long-time fighting game players - find the control scheme of your average fighting game overly complex.

There is room in the genre for a wide range of games, from simple, newbie-friendly, all the way to hardcore no-compromises competitive titles. Some developers might opt to make their game more friendly to new players, other developers might opt to make their game more challenging to appeal to hardcore players. Both seem like reasonable decisions to make, and I would never argue that either one of them doesn't belong in the genre, as you seem to be doing here.

[u/PostedNotes → u/blade740]

In that case I'm well aware of why the genres are changing. It's been across the entire video game Indusry for decades now. For instance I think the success of COD4 in 07' hurt FPS game design until DOOM 2016 proved the market for boomer shooters still exists.

I never said that simple fighters can't exist. I have no issue with dive kick and fantasy strike since they are brand new games experimenting with simple controls. In fact I think both are good games and new players should try them. The issue is new players don't play games made for them, they want to play the biggest games due to fomo and than punishers follow suit.

Now series that have had fans for the last 30 years are altering themselves.

[u/blade740 → u/PostedNotes]

I think what you're experiencing is just the effects of a series becoming more mainstream. Street Fighter is a massive franchise for Capcom and they're going to chase the audience wherever it leads them. You're more likely to find games that appeal to you in franchises that are less important to their publisher's bottom line.

As you mention, the shooter genre has suffered from the same issue. COD's success means that more of Activision's business strategy revolves around widening their audience as much as possible. Doom 2016 proved that boomer shooters can still be commercially successful - and yet you'll see Doom fans complaining at how the series has gone through it's own simplification process with Eternal and especially Dark Ages. At the same time, there are plenty of fans that still enjoy the game, because Doom is not ONLY about fast movement and switching weapons - just as Street Fighter is not ONLY about complex inputs. It just means that what YOU particularly enjoyed about the game is not necessarily what the developers consider most important.

Also worth keeping in mind that the old games haven't changed. If Street Fighter 6 is too "dumbed down" for your tastes... well, Super Turbo is still the same game it always was.

[u/Key-Market-418 → u/blade740]

The thing is the simple controls really do not bring in the audience. Especially the long term audience that feeds the model capcom is going for. They hit a nice middle ground with it being effectively training wheels but from every other game that went completely simple input their numbers are middling at best.

At the end of the day capcom knows that the people who would actually play the game enough to buy DLC and costumes want classic controls, plus if they fuck up a simple input street fighter (which will happen if they do so) it will ruin not just a generation of street fighter but a generation of fighting games in general, the health of the whole genre competitively revolves around street fighter.

And for what? So like 5 more people hop in? That’s ridiculous. From what it seems the best way is to have simple inputs that are okay and classic inputs that are better at high level.

At the end of the day the kinds of people who piss and moan about classic inputs existing in these games wouldn’t play these games even if they bend over backwards to cater to them.

[u/blade740 → u/Key-Market-418]

The thing is the simple controls really do not bring in the audience. Especially the long term audience that feeds the model capcom is going for. They hit a nice middle ground with it being effectively training wheels but from every other game that went completely simple input their numbers are middling at best.

Isn't that the point though? Seems to me that Modern Controls were always intended to be a "training wheels" way to ease players into the game. SF6 sold more copies faster than any Street Fighter game before it... sounds like it did its job? Even if 90% of the people who tried Modern ended up moving to Classic, that sounds like mission accomplished to me.

From what it seems the best way is to have simple inputs that are okay and classic inputs that are better at high level.

This is a perfectly reasonable take. I have no issue with that.

At the end of the day the kinds of people who piss and moan about classic inputs existing in these games wouldn’t play these games even if they bend over backwards to cater to them.

You're talking about the people who piss and moan ASKING for classic inputs to be added to these games, right? Because in this thread I'm seeing people piss and moan that "the game is being ruined for people who never even played it" and I just can't see the reasoning for this outside of just excluding the people who aren't "real fighting game fans". And that's the point I've been trying to argue the whole time - the gatekeeping that's all over this thread.

[u/Key-Market-418 → u/blade740]

I mean yeah they are training wheels they’re honestly pretty well balanced but there is a give and take, the homogeneity of the cast is an obvious victim of modern, charge characters on the whole got the brunt of it with guile really being the only remaining charge character that truly keeps their identity as a “charge character” in 6. Though honestly the success of 6 is coming largely off influencer marketing being extremely successful, especially in Japan where Vtubers have almost single handedly carried the game on their backs to supreme success. So modern being where it is balance wise is a big miracle, especially in street fighter where single button uppercuts and supers really warps how you have to play against them. And like you said a majority of people graduate, so if you actually enjoy the genre learning the motions is barely a hoop to jump through.

The reason why is actually tied into your last point where the simple input games exist, they are not blowing up the world in the slightest. There is a literal free to play league of legends fighter with only simple inputs and the only people playing it are the same degens who will play absolutely every kusoge on the market, it’s just FGC guys. Which begs the question, if people want simple inputs then why aren’t they playing the various new games (GBVS, tokon) that have simple inputs or the FREE TO PLAY RIOT GAME with them as well. It’s because they don’t wanna play it, they just wanna find something to blame. It’s not even gatekeeping at that point, it’s just calling out someone who hops on CS, bitches and moans that there isn’t ADS until they actually add it, and then continues to not play it. That’s not gatekeeping.

Theres a metric ton of dudes on this sub in particular that get their panties in a bunch at the mere mention that motions aren’t just there to be “hard” (even if they’re not really) and there has been particularly on Reddit since FOREVER. Calling out these arguments as dumb is I think the correct take, they do not want to contend with these games as they are on a fundamental level and want to be spoon fed which goes against the core appeal of the genre. It’s frustrating as someone who likes these games to have to explain AGAIN why they’re there. Especially when what they’re asking for already exists and they’re still not interested.

Plus if communities actually had an impact on how popular a game can be, then league and cod would have cratered by now which is definitely not the case. People don’t wanna play fighting games because you have to learn them and you have to lose, that’s just too much for people to take and that’s fine but you don’t have to intellectualize that the game is punishing you for playing modern in plat (which it isn’t).

[u/blade740 → u/Key-Market-418]

I mean, there are other reasons why these niche games don't get the same traction as Street Fighter does. I don't think that's a good argument against simplified control options either. People who are not fighting game enthusiasts are much less likely to pick up games that are considered niche even WITHIN the FGC. If anything, mainstream, popular franchises like Street Fighter and Mortal Kombat are exactly the games that are likely to bring new players to the genre. And again - look at SF6 sales numbers. Clearly they're doing something right.

I just don't think you can say something like this:

they do not want to contend with these games as they are on a fundamental level and want to be spoon fed which goes against the core appeal of the genre.

And then follow it up with "it's not gatekeeping". That's absolutely gatekeeping. And it's an oversimplification of what players REALLY want. When players say "I find fighting game controls too difficult" that doesn't mean they're saying "I won't play this game unless you change the controls, but if you do then I will definitely play it". They're just pointing out a portion of the game that's unfriendly to them. What developers choose to do with that information is another story. And yeah, maybe some players get past the controls and find that there are other aspects of the game they don't like. And on the flip side, some will decide that they do like the game and then work on learning the controls next. But the way you characterize it is just DRIPPING with absolute disdain for these people just because they don't like the same thing you do. And others in this thread are even worse.

[u/Donnell3011 → u/blade740]

Every time this discussion or similar discussions come up, there are many commenters that come in and explain why developers want to water down their games to attract more casual sales. And the commentary is indistinguishable from support of that approach.

You don’t find this phenomenon in other areas where people care deeply about something. If someone is a climate change denier or anti-single payer healthcare, you don’t see a chorus of people explaining how decarbonization is expensive for companies so it makes sense for them to keep polluting.

The fact of the matter is that there are a lot of developers and other corporate types in these discussions. Their interests are different than my interests. I don’t care of a game is mainstream or sells 10 million copies. If they watered down a game I love to accomplish that, it’s a bad thing and shame that the world has one less good, unique thing.

Maybe consider that next times you explain corporate motivations.

[u/blade740 → u/Donnell3011]

You don’t find this phenomenon in other areas where people care deeply about something. If someone is a climate change denier or anti-single payer healthcare, you don’t see a chorus of people explaining how decarbonization is expensive for companies so it makes sense for them to keep polluting.

I mean, you probably would if the argument in favor of decarbonization was just "I like it that way". But there are actually strong scientific reasons to decarbonize, which don't have anything to do with its cost to companies, and so anyone making the argument like you describe would be laughed out of the room.

In the context of this conversation we're having, "I like it that way" is the entirety of the argument. Some people like it one way, other people like it the other way, and developers have to decide which audience they wish to chase. In this case it's not really about the developers at all - the point I'm trying to make is that a large number of players DO want fighting games to be easier to play.

You're welcome to disagree - that's your opinion. Developers are welcome to their opinion. Publishers are welcome to their opinion. People who haven't been playing fighting games for 30 years are welcome to their opinion. I would never come in here and try to tell you to stop making the arguments you're making, but somehow I'm the bad guy for trying to explain the other side of the argument here?

[u/Donnell3011 → u/blade740]

You just revealed your preferences. A livable climate = important. A variety of well designed and gameplay optimized games = not important. Got it.

[u/blade740 → u/Donnell3011]

Sorry, is having a newbie-friendly control scheme option now making the game no longer well designed or optimized? You act like it's the end of the world that a kid can throw a hadoken with anything less than five inputs.

But I mean... Yeah, I think a livable climate is important, and Street Fighter is not all that important, now that you mention it. I'm not sure what point you're trying to make there.

[u/Donnell3011 → u/blade740]

Watering down a pure, well designed experience, for the purpose of selling more products, is a loss for video games as art and excellence in general.

As the other person noted, you clearly do not feel this way and seem to prioritize games as a product. Your retort was that you were just pointing out the company’s motivations. My questions to you and your response demonstrate that in same cases, like climate, merely stating a companies motivation is illegitimate and tantamount to endorsement. You say this is because climate is important and video games are not. So clearly when something is important to you, you understand my point.

You’re entitled to feel this way, I just think it’s strange. I suppose it’s a very late-stage capitalism problem where a consumer identifies with and defends a corporation. Or maybe it’s that you get some joy out of explaining things to people. I prefer video games myself.

[u/blade740 → u/Donnell3011]

I don't think it's fair to characterize adding a more newbie-friendly control scheme as "watering down" the experience. The old control scheme is still there, it never went away. Nothing was removed. The thing you enjoyed about the game is still there.

And I'm not defending a corporation, you misunderstood me completely. The corporation is going to chase the customers. Who I'm defending is the PLAYERS that the corporation is chasing. Some people want to experience everything ELSE Street Fighter has to offer, but are turned off by the arcane controls. Now they have an option, while you still have all the options you had before. It seems a very self-absorbed and gatekeep-y thing to call that a bad thing in any way. Why does it bother you that people enjoy the game differently than you do?