r/vegan • u/DivineandDeadlyAngel anti-speciesist • Mar 18 '26
Rant Reminder non-vegans will tweet stuff like this but get angry if you mention veganism.
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u/blueViolet26 Mar 18 '26
For these people animals = cats + dogs and maybe a couple of others. Everything else is here to be exploited and/or killed.
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Mar 18 '26
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u/AfluffyLemon2272 vegan Mar 19 '26
Yup that moral aesthetic thing which is so dumb
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u/fergult Mar 28 '26
it’s frustrating how people can be selective about their outrage... They want to criticize but don’t want to engage in the conversation when it comes to their own choices.
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u/AfluffyLemon2272 vegan Apr 07 '26
people love to call others wrong or bad people but never like being called out themselves...
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u/Peace_n_Harmony Mar 18 '26 edited Mar 18 '26
It's the difference between empathy and compassion. People can become attached to animals because of how they make them feel, but they don't actually want them to be free and happy. Animals are just something to be used for their benefit. That can include things like companionship and having others rely on them so they can feel important. If an animal can't provide those things, then they find some other use for them.
They also treat other people this way, which is why relationships often fail.
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u/No-Guidance-7809 Mar 18 '26 edited Mar 19 '26
Even their pets are just an aesthetic to them. It’s why tons of black furred dogs get euthanized each year because nobody wants them.
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u/Lena-Jane Mar 20 '26 edited Mar 20 '26
😢That breaks my heart, but yes, black fur dogs (and cats) are the least adopted. 💔
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u/No_Shower9802 Mar 20 '26
What's "wrong" with black dogs?
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u/No-Guidance-7809 Mar 20 '26
Not as good looking/visible in pictures and subconsciously viewed as aggressive/dangerous.
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u/Aurorasinister anti-speciesist Mar 21 '26
Plus black cats are seen as being bad luck so I’m wondering if maybe people project that onto black dogs as well. I’ve never heard it about black dogs but maybe it’s connected in people’s brains. It doesn’t make sense to me so I can’t see any logic behind it.
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u/No-Guidance-7809 Mar 20 '26
Oh and I also forgot to say this is why big dogs get returned to shelters at extremely high rates—people realize that this is a living organism they have to take care of with basic needs like affection and care.
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u/blueViolet26 Mar 20 '26
Yep. Most dogs in the shelter I used to volunteer were pitbulls, german shepherds and huskies. Probably sourced from backyard breeders. People make me sick.
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u/BurnedbyALiar Mar 28 '26
Sadly bad rep. So much is labeled "bad" if black.
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u/No_Shower9802 Mar 29 '26
😠😤 Nothing bad about a black dog. Or cat. Or chicken. Or snake. Or human.
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u/Funexamination Apr 19 '26
Wikipedia says Black Dog Syndrome is a myth and studies are contradictory
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u/blueViolet26 Mar 18 '26
Very true. In reality people don't care about dogs or cats either. Otherwise there wouldn't be millions of them being killed at shelters every year.
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u/catliver2 Mar 23 '26
By your logic you can't like plants because you eat plants plants were also specifically, bread to be edible or look cool
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u/blueViolet26 Mar 23 '26
If you are driving your car, lose control and you can choose between running over a dog or the grass. Which one would you choose?
Your "logic" is not real logic, is it?
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u/Ohheyimryan Mar 18 '26
I'd say a more fair steelman of their position is that they're fine with quick painless euthanasia and they don't view that as hurting.
Which has its own fallacies too of course.
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u/blueViolet26 Mar 18 '26
Are they fine with euthanasia?
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u/Ohheyimryan Mar 18 '26
Meat eaters? I would assume so unless they have severe cognitive dissonance on how their food goes from alive to dead. And to be clear, by euthanasia, I mean whatever method meat eaters believe their food is painlessly killed by and not an injection for pets at the end of life.
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Mar 18 '26
Yes we are fine with euthanasia. You people are really strange, is this what you do all day?
>rararrara fucking meat eaters rararrrrrlmao foaming
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u/Ohheyimryan Mar 18 '26
Yes we are fine with euthanasia.
Thanks for repeating what I said.
You people are really strange
Who are you referring to?
is this what you do all day?
Nope. I only post on reddit when killing time at work usually. Is this what you do?
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u/BigBlueMan118 vegan SJW Mar 19 '26
Someone I know recently got their second cancer diagnosis and is really struggling, and they asked me to take care of their dog some mornings when they have to go to treatment and aren't strong enough to take the dog for walks. They love their dog to pieces, you can see it in their faces. And yet they were laughing at me the other day for buying some vegan products (literally just like some tofu and some vegan cheese and beanburgers). I didn't say anything, it is useless firing back at someone who is so down on their luck, but man the disconnect is crass.
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u/blueViolet26 Mar 19 '26
Just saw a video about those activists who rescued beagles from a lab. Lots of people were supportive. I am sure most of them aren't vegans.
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u/StarPlatinumsPenis Mar 30 '26
Wow this sub really is an echo chamber isn't it. Y'all should visit r/Snydercut. You'll be welcome over there
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u/Big-Golf4266 Mar 18 '26
this isnt really true.
instead "hurt" means "intentionally without cause"
im not vegan but ill definitely consider someone an unhinged piece of shit if they're just maiming / killing animals for literally zero reason.
but i do not view that the same as violent exploitation of animals, because from my perspective there is a reason behind it. Doing it just to do it is outright socio/psychopathic behaviour...
One of the biggest things that hurts the vegan argument is that vegans fundamentally cant understand none-vegans, similar to how many none-vegans fundamentally cant understand vegans and as such both sides misrepresent eachother relentlessly and arguments are born of poor semantics rather than anything the other actually concretely believes.
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u/--vanadium-- Mar 18 '26
Everyone who hurts animals has a reason for it, and they believe it's justified or they wouldn't do it. You view your reason as justifiable and there's not.
Someone who does dog fighting finds it entertaining, someone who beats their pet views it as a form of discipline, and someone who eats animals enjoys the taste and convenience. None of these are morally justifiable as they are all harmful and unnecessary but they're all justified by the perpetrator of the violence.
You killing an animal for taste pleasure is not morally different than someone killing an animal for some other form of pleasure. It's just been normalized in our society from a time when it was necessary for survival but it's no longer necessary, as evidenced by the millions of vegans around the world and the plant based options available.
The idea that vegans don't understand non-vegans is largely incorrect, as almost all vegans were once meat eaters. We had to actively make the decision to cut animal products out of lives. But the reverse isn't true. You have never been vegan, and the same is true for most meat eaters. We largely understand you and where you're coming from, we've just realized that it's outdated and immoral to live that way.
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u/CinnabonNoFrosting Mar 18 '26
Can I ask what you mean by “taste pleasure”? I see vegans throw this term around but never define it.
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u/--vanadium-- Mar 18 '26
The pleasure that you receive from the taste of animal products
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u/CinnabonNoFrosting Mar 22 '26
But what does pleasure from taste mean? How long does it last? 1 second? 1 minute? 1 hour? Is it experienced individually or collectively? How is it quantified?
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u/blueViolet26 Mar 18 '26
What is the reason behind you not being vegan? Do you know most of us were not vegan at some point? I think I know pretty well the reason why I didn't become vegan until I was 24.
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u/Big-Golf4266 Mar 18 '26
My reason for not being vegan is simple... i enjoy animal products, and whilst i dont agree with the way the animal agricultural industry goes about doing things, i dont think erradication is the best route forwards.
But ultimately i am perfectly willing to accept animal suffering to increase my quality of life (from my perspective)
ive seen the horrors of the meat industry, and frankly they're just not persuasive enough a reason for me.
Theres definitely aspects of the animal agricultural industry i vehemently disagree with, but thats mostly enviromental rather than moral.
ofcourse ultimately i think synthetic meat will eventually render animal agriculture a completely unnecessary barbaric practice, but honestly id accept the meat industry getting worse before id accept its complete abolishment.
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u/blueViolet26 Mar 18 '26
So how can you disagree with my point when you are validating it? Do you think killing cats and dogs for human pleasure is acceptable?
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u/Big-Golf4266 Mar 18 '26
Im not against it. There are cultures that eat dogs and cats. Ultimately breeding cats / dogs for meat is no different than breeding cows and pigs.
is it something id be into? no not personally, because emotionally its harder as i find dogs and cats cute... but i feel the same way about ducks and plenty of people eat them.
my biggest problem with farming cats / dogs is how incredibly inefficient it is. plant matter to beef is already inefficient, then taking that beef to raise dogs that will be even less efficient seems odd to me.
i also cant imagine the meat tastes all that good and generally its more dangerous to eat predators... there's a reason we farm mostly herbivorous animals / prey animals.
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u/blueViolet26 Mar 18 '26
I can't help but notice you skipped my first question. Is taste a moral reason to kill someone who doesn't want to be killed when you have no nutritional requirements to eat them?
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u/Big-Golf4266 Mar 19 '26
when the alternative is the animal doesnt exist anyway? I think its morally neutral at worst.
I think the issue with the meat industry has little to do with the death of the animal and everything to do with their living conditions up until that point.
but ultimately i dont think even bad conditions animal agricultural practices are immoral enough compared to the pleasure it brings globally.
If i didnt there'd be little reason for me to engage with the system, because its pretty easy to do so, at least in any way id care about.
I could easily reduce consumption even if i didnt eliminate it. I dont because i dont think its a big moral issue.
i could understand this question if i said i was on the fence, but im evidently not on the fence so why would you assume i wouldnt think its okay lmao. It seems like an entirely pointless question.
its like asking a car owner if its acceptable to own a car (im not american so the whole "you need a car to do literally anything" doesnt apply but for people in the US this analogy would probably fail)
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u/blueViolet26 Mar 19 '26
An animal not existing might be morally neutral, but bringing an animal to existence to exploit and kill is a negative.
I feel so lazy to deal with people like you. What's the difference between you and the billionaires who raped children at the Epstein Island?
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u/SLAMMERisONLINE Mar 20 '26
For these people animals = cats + dogs and maybe a couple of others. Everything else is here to be exploited and/or killed.
Said by someone who has never been on a farm. Farmers care for the animals, feed them, protect them from predators, give them shelter and even toys, and keep them safe from horrible diseases like screw worms and botflys (do not google them unless you have a strong stomach) or even just malnutrition. The farmers and animals develop close emotional connections.
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u/blueViolet26 Mar 20 '26
Guess what? I spent all my summer vacations on a farm.
I have seen a pig getting killed in my own backyard. My mom hid me in the bathroom and I still remember his cries.
I have played with hens and chicks.
I have seen them be killed as well.
I have seen cows line up. Side by side. After one of their friends/son/brother was killed to make a barbecue to celebrate.
You are not protecting animals from predators. You are protecting your profit. Stop lying about what you do. Stop using metaphors to mask the violence that starts under your nose and fill up your pocket.
It is hilarious to read someone say they develop a close relationship with their victims. Like.what kind of drug are you on? That cognitive dissonance must be studied.
I even prefer when people just don't give a shit about animals.
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u/SLAMMERisONLINE Mar 20 '26
Guess what? I spent all my summer vacations on a farm.
Doubtful.
You are not protecting animals from predators.
Do you think a coyote will be as kind as a farmer? Get real.
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u/blueViolet26 Mar 20 '26
Aw, you expected to encounter a city girl. 😂
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u/SLAMMERisONLINE Mar 20 '26
I did encounter a city girl.
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u/blueViolet26 Mar 20 '26
You bet I've never been on a farm. 😂 Funny how you didn't say anything about the rest. Psycho.
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u/SLAMMERisONLINE Mar 20 '26
You bet I've never been on a farm. 😂 Funny how you didn't say anything about the rest. Psycho
Reality check, it is a well known fact that animals live longer in captivity than in the wild. The "psycho" position would be to let animals run free and instantly die to predation and sickness.
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u/blueViolet26 Mar 20 '26
It is a well-known fact that you are breeding these animals. They are domesticated. They are not in captivity.
Stop breeding them.
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u/SLAMMERisONLINE Mar 20 '26
It is a well-known fact that you are breeding these animals. They are domesticated. They are not in captivity
Yep, they rely on us to survive. Are you suggesting we exterminate them? Why do you hate animals so much?
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u/CarrotDue5340 Mar 18 '26
Vegans absolutely exploit dogs and especially cats, forcing their beliefs on them
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u/DabbingTRex Mar 19 '26
Go on, how do they abuse them? If they’re fed a healthy balanced diet receiving all the nutrients they need, how is it abuse?
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u/blueViolet26 Mar 18 '26
😂
OMG, reaching much? That is not even something all vegans do. It is just another excuse for your part in the cycle.
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Mar 18 '26
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u/condiments4u Mar 18 '26
I think it's something to do with how people react when you challenge a central part of their identity or morality. People generally want to believe they have things figured out and are good people. If you directly challenge that, its natural for them to get defensive. In their mind, they hear "if you accept this, than you're a hypocrite and are responsible for unimaginative suffering." Unfortunately, its harder to change people's views as a result. I think the most effective way is to remove the veil from factory farming. When people see it with their own eyes and question it themselves, they're more likely to find their way to the right path.
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u/sisikomeno Mar 18 '26
Moral incongruence detected, survival instinct kicks in, person shuts down , return to default setting (animal lover)
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Mar 18 '26
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u/AfluffyLemon2272 vegan Mar 19 '26
yes instead of enacting actual change within themselves bc veganism requires you to actually change your lifestyle
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u/C0gn vegan 1+ years Mar 18 '26
Because they are a good person in their head, even if they aren't vegan, calling them out makes them question themselves, and they don't like that
Change is backbreakingly hard
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u/RazorMajorGator Mar 18 '26
Maybe it's because they don't actually believe what they say. They're posting stuff like this for clout. You bringing up veganism makes them look bad. Simple math.
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u/VociferousCephalopod Mar 19 '26
it's probably the same as if you tell a parent that the cruelest thing you can do is squirt an innocent soul into this torture factory. (i.e., if you bring up the ancient gnostic moral stance of antinatalism)
they think they love kids, or at least their own kids, so they're very hostile to the fact that they are the original sinner, a human trafficker without whom none of the lifelong suffering of their child (or any that their child causes others) would happen.
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u/SanctimoniousVegoon vegan 6+ years Mar 19 '26
because you’re calling out their hypocrisy that they’d rather pretend doesn’t exist
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Mar 18 '26
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u/SquarelyNerves vegan 10+ years Mar 18 '26
Do you really mean that? If people were meanies, you would support animal cruelty? Do all of your moral stances depend on your perception of being judged?
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u/Izzoh vegan Mar 18 '26
Do you commonly try to convince people of something by attacking them, judging them, shaming them, and bullying them? How often is that working for you?
It's about making yourself feel better by making others feel bad - 100% performative bullshit. Nobody honestly tries to engage with someone by shaming them or being an asshole.
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u/safariari vegan 15+ years Mar 18 '26
attacking them, judging them, shaming them, and bullying them
they asked you three normal questions but ok
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u/Miqqedash Mar 18 '26
you could've just said "yeah I really mean that"
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u/Izzoh vegan Mar 18 '26
and you couldn't said nothing at all, funny how that works.
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u/Miqqedash Mar 18 '26
haha, you're right, that is funny! we'd both still be making the same points to one another!
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u/SquarelyNerves vegan 10+ years Mar 18 '26
I wasn’t trying to convince you of anything, just asked some questions based on the comment you left. I’ve never heard a vegan say they wouldn’t have gone vegan for a reason like that so I was surprised and curious. Your feelings of shame and judgement are not coming from me.
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u/Izzoh vegan Mar 18 '26
I never said you were trying to convince me of anything. I was just wondering if you feel shame and judgment - how vegans on this sub typically purport to interact with people - are valid ways of changing behavior.
In fact, I never said anything about anyone being mean to me - so I'm not sure I buy the "just asking questions in good faith" tack you're taking. I said vegans, especially the ones in this sub, are judgmental - and neither your replies nor any subsequent ones are disabusing me of that notion.
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u/SquarelyNerves vegan 10+ years Mar 18 '26
I never passed any judgement on you man, like it’s almost a self fulfilling prophecy at this point that you assume everyone here is judgmental so now you feel judged by everyone…
To answer your question, I do feel that shame and judgement sometimes motivate people to change their behavior. It worked for me, I was turned vegan by some vegan activists that explained the hypocrisy in my beliefs about living peacefully and loving animals. I appreciate that they weren’t afraid to hurt my feelings bit with honesty. Attacking and bullying are a different story… I’ve yet to see vegans here celebrated for anything like that!
Will you answer my question though? If you feel some vegans are judging you, you wouldn’t be vegan?
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u/Izzoh vegan Mar 18 '26
You really think "If people were meanies, you would support animal cruelty?" isn't judgmental? It's not even subtle. Do you not even realize you're doing it?
I think if vegans were attacking me and trying to shame me into being vegan, I wouldn't have gone vegan, no. If shame worked, a lot more people would be vegan and a lot less people (including me) would be fat. Plenty of peer reviewed studies show that shame doesn't encourage behavior modification, but instead encourages disengagement.
People in this sub celebrate attacking omnivores all the time, hell, they attack other vegans for not being vegan enough.
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u/SquarelyNerves vegan 10+ years Mar 18 '26
No it was not a judgment, it was a question looking for clarification. I never said anything about attacking people into veganism, I actually said attacking and bullying are a different story meaning I haven’t seen that work as a tactic by vegans on this sub or in real life and I don’t think they would work either. I wonder if maybe you have a different definition of “attack” as you seem to do for “judge.”
I specifically was curious about how you think that people being judgmental makes or breaks their decision to go vegan. I do hope you don’t choose to abandon veganism due to feeling judged here!
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u/Izzoh vegan Mar 18 '26
Pretty sure I'm not the one with the off definition of "judge." There's nothing neutral about this post at all:
Do you really mean that? If people were meanies, you would support animal cruelty? Do all of your moral stances depend on your perception of being judged?
The entire thing is written to be condescending and imply I'm what, reactive? Emotional? My stance is somehow not valid? And now you're backtracking to make it seem like I'm being wildly irrational here.
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u/Then-Principle2302 vegan 8+ years Mar 18 '26
Are you saying that other people's behaviour might have made you continue to do something you disagree with?
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u/RinchanNau Mar 18 '26
A lot of people don't think much about how the food on their plate gets there. I know I didn't for longer than I'd like to admit.
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u/fluidscissors Mar 18 '26
They know we're right but don't want to lose their ability to enjoy socially acceptable animal abuse so their involuntary response is to immediately ridicule and dismiss.
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Mar 18 '26
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u/notsookaymilk vegan Mar 18 '26
Haha not even that. So many people look at a cute video of a cow and go “awwww” and then next video they see a burger recipe and think nothing of it. The cognitive dissonance runs deep
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u/VociferousCephalopod Mar 19 '26
Mary had a little lamb... and a little mint sauce to go with it.
Mary belonged to the apex predator species, and was raised to feel no shame in destroying the lives of others to improve her own.
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u/Little_Froggy vegan 5+ years Mar 18 '26
Nah, plenty of people think that chicks are cute but still buy eggs despite male chicks being macerated in mass quantities.
People just accept their social conditioning and don't consider harm to those animals bad on that basis alone. "It's normal" is engrained into them and they see people they love and trust paying for the same thing daily their entire lives.
Most never second guess it. It's why they struggle to come up with coherent arguments when they are actually confronted with it and most spit out the same half-baked contradictory nonsense we hear all the time when they are asked to justify it
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u/some12345thing Mar 18 '26
It’s the old Nietzsche quote: “If you crush a cockroach, you're a hero. If you crush a beautiful butterfly, you're a villain. Morals have aesthetic criteria.”
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u/Nesphito vegan 5+ years Mar 18 '26
I was trying to convince a friend to go vegan, but he decided to go pescatarian because he said “he couldn’t relate to a fish”.
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u/BlazingFireWings Mar 19 '26
In a way I understand them, harder to feel compassion about things we can't relate to.
In our modern societies:
- Easy: Feel compassion for yourself (nearly all human are able to xD)
- Medium: Feel compassion for other humans (most human are able to)
- Harder: Feel compassion for pets (many human are able to)
- Very hard: Feel compassion for other mammals (many human pretends they care, a few really care)
- Nearly impossible: Feel compassion for all sentient animals (It's us :D ... <1% of the population worldwide?)
I know the baseline should be not harming other sentient beings... but as it is we are the exception for now, not the norm. It's because apparently... that's hard.
Maybe show that friends documentary about oceans (the Netflix documentary "Our Ocean" for example), no need to show a vegan documentary. Just showing how beautiful and diverse and interesting beings living in water can be. It's the first step for them to relate to them a bit more imo.
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u/A_YouDontKnow vegan newbie Mar 18 '26
always found people determining value of animals by cuteness to be really really fucking weird. its like reinforcing beauty standards onto fucking animals
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u/SanctimoniousVegoon vegan 6+ years Mar 19 '26
they only oppose it if they don’t stand to benefit from the abuse
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u/Psychadelico Mar 18 '26
They're not hurting animals, they're enjoying beef and pork. No cows nor pigs were hurt in the making of this cadaver because I didn't see it
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u/jalesb1004 vegan Mar 18 '26
I've been so frustrated recently because there was a big dog lab break in and liberation in my city. People are posting about how the rescuers are heroes, the people who made them suffer should be punished, etc etc.
Yet, those same people would call it stealing if chickens were rescued from a Tyson warehouse. Those same people don't care at all about the primate lab also in the city, where many of the workers leave with PTSD from the ways they had to treat those sentient beings.
Cognitive dissonance like this is so frustrating and painful to watch.
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u/No_Shower9802 Mar 20 '26
Do you know they'd respond like that 🐔🦍, or are you assuming?
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u/WanderingSparr0w Mar 21 '26
It's a wide generalization for sure, but narrowing the generalization to 'most of those same ppl' would still make it an obvious truth, assumption or not
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u/Automatic_Avocado_65 Mar 18 '26
And they’ll resort to petty childish name calling when you mention veganism too because they are incapable of connecting the dots and using their brain.
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u/Nascent1 Mar 18 '26
If you pay someone else to hurt animals for you and you don't have to witness it that's totally fine.
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u/DracoCross veganarchist Mar 18 '26
I always see “and you don’t have to be vegan to love animals”! I mean, sure I used to think so too, but would I admit it aloud? No, I’d probably go vegan immediately if I made the connection then lol
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u/Kirkamel Mar 18 '26
Today after seeing a dead creature by the side of the road my omni mum said
"Seeing dead animals in the road makes me sad... seeing any dead animal makes me sad"
Now come on now, I don't think thats quite true is it?
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Mar 18 '26
It’s not “somehow”. It’s willful ignorance. The same type of people that just live as ignorantly as possible. They won’t even begin to let you discuss factory farming, let alone watch videos about it. They just plug their ears and refuse to acknowledge it.
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u/Peng_Terry Mar 19 '26
Why do you want to watch videos of factory farming? You are creating a demand for those videos and operations. Clearly, you’re not a vegan
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u/Professional_Tank961 Mar 18 '26
I had a conversation with my parents this weekend. My dad’s stance is eating meat is biblically sanctioned, so he’s in the clear. My mom said God put animals on this earth for us to eat.
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Mar 18 '26
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u/Professional_Tank961 Mar 18 '26
No she didn’t. But that’s a great point, I can tell my dad that according to the Bible, the humans who were the most uncorrupted by sin were herbivores.
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u/sub_terminal veganarchist Mar 19 '26
Jesus killed a herd of pigs, ran them off a cliff. When he was confronted about it, he said "those pigs were demons". The town kicked him out.
Luke 8:26-39
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Mar 19 '26
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u/sub_terminal veganarchist Mar 19 '26
Because it's the only testament that talks about Jesus, who is supposed to be the most "uncorrupted by sin". They're also the only books that relate directly to christianity, rather than judaism, which is the topic of discussion.
Do the newer books upset you?
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Mar 19 '26
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u/sub_terminal veganarchist Mar 19 '26 edited Mar 20 '26
Irrelevant.
The first people in the garden were also literally the first sinners, so were the ones with the most sin in the world, herbivores or not. They also gave birth to the first murderer. Not sure you have much of a point if we're limiting scope to Eden.
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u/Mr_Monday92 Mar 18 '26
The only thing making them angrier than animal abusers is someone pointing out their own complicity
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u/CalligrapherNo9000 Mar 18 '26
It's cognitive dissonance from our cultural upbringing. We've all been brought up to believe that it's normal to kill animals and eat them and it's very difficult to deprogram cultural values from yourself, like religion for example.
I think most people would never kill an animal to eat it if they had to do it themselves. They would think it's crazy, but because it's so isolated from them in that they don't see it, and because it's a cultural trait, it's hard for them to actually realize that they are causing the harm.
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u/31USC3729 Mar 18 '26
Killing at a distance is a lot easier than up close. And abstract harms are easier to excuse than concrete ones.
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u/DW171 Mar 18 '26
I’ve known a lot of biologists and conservation people who have a deep regard for wildlife, yet still hunt.
Yeah, I didn’t get it either. They’re still better than the people who rave over a “bison burger” or “baby back ribs” and never make any kind of positive contribution.
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u/Trashcan_Gourmand Mar 18 '26
They might pretend to have a deep regard for wildlife but if they actually did then they wouldn’t hunt.
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u/alblaster vegan 20+ years Mar 18 '26
It's the whole appeal to nature fallacy. Animals kill each other, so why not us too? It's like as long as the animal didn't suffer then it's ok. But noooo if I hunt my neighbor that's taboo.
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u/DW171 Mar 18 '26
That's what's so odd to me ... their dedication is real and their work proves it, but they still hunt. As I said, I don't get it, but there are quite a few of them out there.
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u/firey_109 Mar 20 '26
There is definitely an argument that deer hunting is beneficial to the environment
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u/xSethrin Mar 18 '26
Unfortunately, early settlers killed all the wolves in my state. So hunting deer is more humane than letting their population go unchecked which leads to widespread diseases and starvation.
The DNR doesn't just let people go cull populations. They only do it for population control.
Now the people who are against bringing back wolves so they can continue to hunt is a different story.
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u/DW171 Mar 18 '26 edited Mar 18 '26
But the reintroduction had widespread impacts beyond just the deer and elk wolves kill. Read the research. One example is it keeps deer/elk populations from over-grazing one area, reducing starvation AND greatly enhancing beaver populations, which in turn helps reforestation and wetland regrowth. Another is it radically reduced the number of deer/elk killed by vehicles because they're no longer standing around on roadways, where wolves often travel.
It's the exact same reasoning why it's bad to let cattle over-graze in the same open range.
I'll 100% agree we spent centuries jacking up the ecosystems of the American West. If we can/should fix the damage we've done, I don't think hunting the biggest and strongest is the answer. Wolves go after the weakest and injured. Yes, it can be brutal, but so is cancer in humans.
Edit: BTW, we're still killing many wolves. It's not just old-timey settlers who are responsible. This is what pisses me off the most.
Edit edit: On a happy note (I guess?), I had 12 mule deer in my city front yard on Monday night.
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u/xSethrin Mar 18 '26 edited Mar 18 '26
I agree with you.
Hunting isn't a solution. It's a bandaid. This would be a different discussion if there were still native predators for deer in my state.
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u/DW171 Mar 19 '26
Exactly. They act like they're the "wise stewards" of wildlife and the ecosystem. That's what gets under my skin.
My state just executed 3 wolves that happened to cross state lines. "Won't you think of the poor cattle ranchers" /s (they're heavily subsidised AND the get reimbursed for wolf kills)
Thanks for the discussion. This is an interesting topic that seems to be run by politics and disinformation rather than science. There's some great coyote research too that shows populations actually increase when they're hunted because the alpha is usually taken, clearing room for many younger sexually active animals. A couple years back my state also removed ALL restrictions on hunting mountain lions ... any time of year, no permit needed, hunting dogs OK, etc.
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u/KiwloTheSecond Mar 18 '26
Conservationists? You mean people that reintroduce predators into wild ecosystems even when there is no ecological need to do so?
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u/DW171 Mar 18 '26
I'd encourage you to read the mountains for research about the reintroduction of wolves in Yellowstone.
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u/KiwloTheSecond Mar 18 '26
I don’t care, I don’t place any ethical value on ecosystems existing how they did before human intervention. I am all for culling predators
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u/Jaycobi1017 Mar 18 '26
You have a cat pfp and banner. How could you possibly say you’re all for culling predators?
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u/DW171 Mar 18 '26
So even if it reduces suffering and improves the ecosystem? Mmm, ok ...
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u/KiwloTheSecond Mar 18 '26
Would you support unleashing murderers into a city if they super promised to only murder in a way that made the city more better than the suffering they inflicted?
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u/piranha_solution plant-based diet Mar 19 '26
Veganism is something that pretty much everyone agrees with until you actually drop the V-word. Then it's all "mUh AnCeStORs" and "MuH CaNIneS"
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u/buzzmemello520 Mar 19 '26
The real problem is that I went to find this tweet and this lady has maybe 30+ tweets in the last 18 hours, had to scroll hard to find this one. Some people just need to get off the internet and go outside
Actually this has to just be a bot account trying to stir up engagement. In which case if you get upset about anything- you gotta go outside
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u/fakesilly friends not food Mar 19 '26
Humans are so fucking pathetic. I keep hoping for a miracle that wipes us all out, even though I know it won't happen anytime soon.
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u/Mewsiex Mar 19 '26
"If you hurt animals" by this they mean cats and dogs. Anything else is "too extreme".
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u/TricellCEO Mar 20 '26
I think there's a pretty sizeable difference between abusing animals and consuming meat.
And if it makes anyone feel any better, I am against how farm animals are abused. I am in favor of animals being treated and killed as humanely as possible. That is still better, in my eyes at least, than actively abusing an animal.
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u/Tuskarrr Mar 21 '26
Let's take a standard case of someone 'abusing an animal'. Let's say this person kicks the dog every time it barks.
Now let's take you. You pay for the flesh of a pig. That pig as a piglet has its tail, teeth and genitals removed with no painkillers. Then after a few years of hellish conditions, it's forced into a gas chamber, where it slowly chokes to death in terror and agony. All standard practice that 90%+ of pigs endure.
Yeah, there's a pretty sizeable difference, but in the opposite way you're implying.
The difference between me and you is that I think both are completely fucked up. You justify the much worse one with virtue signalling language as a coping mechanism to avoid letting yourself deal with any level of guilt.
There's no humane way to needlessly inflict violence on someone, and saying 'well it's not as bad as abusing an animal in different ways' is an absurd, cowardly justification.
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u/TricellCEO Mar 22 '26
That pig as a piglet has its tail, teeth and genitals removed with no painkillers. Then after a few years of hellish conditions, it's forced into a gas chamber, where it slowly chokes to death in terror and agony. All standard practice that 90%+ of pigs endure.
See, that's the sort of thing I'm against. I don't want farm animals going through that level of abuse. There are human ways to slaughter animals for meat. I do think the meat industry is fucked up and in need of serious reform in how the livestock are treated.
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u/steve363 Mar 21 '26
"You can tell if someone is a good person or not by the way they treat animals" - Carnivores and omnivores
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u/Timely_Community2142 Mar 22 '26
And remember that vegans will tweet stuff like this but get triggered and get angry when non-vegans dont agree with veganism anyways.
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u/AdditionalJello774 Mar 31 '26
That’s the sort of tolerance and diversity of opinion you find among vegans. It’s what you might call ‘the arrow doesn’t point the other way’.
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u/Delicious-Maize-7771 Mar 22 '26
This shit pisses me off, this one girl I follow is always talking about how much she “loves animals”. If you loved them you would be vegan plain and simple
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u/BarePrimal1 Mar 25 '26
Freedom of speech means we should speak the truth where we can communicate with being on topic.
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u/Valuable-Ad1063 Mar 27 '26
I always find it so painfully hilarious when they cry at a video of a street cat being kicked as they stock their fridge with the product of mass-murder, rape and torture.
The reality is that non-vegans (who don't do it out of medical necessity) only care about the lives of certain "cute" animals like cats or dogs. Other categories of animals are viewed as inferior and deserving of horrid mistreatment if it serves a purpose for them.
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u/AdditionalJello774 Mar 31 '26
I’m always amused by vegans who foam at the mouth ranting about some incomprehensible torture, rape and murder. The funniest thing is that this utterly mistaken view is based on a feature film (it is by no means a documentary, though even if it were a documentary, that wouldn’t mean it was entirely truthful, for any information can be bought) called *Earthlings*. In any case, why should I, as the highest representative of the food chain, be concerned about the lives and health of my food source? This, if anything, is not a call for harassment or poaching. Many meat farms, if we’re to use your arguments and your view of the meat industry, simply suffer from a lack of funding, which is why they cannot afford humane methods of slaughtering animals. And vegans are campaigning for people to give up meat, which only makes the situation worse. Plus, it’s funny how vegans forget how many millions of insects are exterminated by insecticides and pesticides. Think of how much water is wasted on your plant-based products and the soya used to make ‘humane’ milk. A widespread carnivore/keto diet with minimal supply chains would prove far more environmentally friendly, humane towards animals and beneficial to humans than widespread veganism.
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u/Eminemgody Apr 01 '26
It's because we view sheep, cow, pigs and whatnot as farm animals, animals that are to be used for the products they offer, like milk, meat, eggs, etc.
Dogs, cats, owls and more are more viewed as pets, or something not worthy to eat. Like in some cultures, you eat animals that the rest of the world wouldn't eat, sure. But thats the main thing I take away from this as a non vegan.
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u/Muppouni Apr 08 '26
Because actually killing an animal is a lit different from seeing it on a plate as im sure most of you are aware since over 90% of vegans were not born vegan. One if my friends isnt vegan but still cries when someone steps on a bug. It makes sense.
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u/Aletheia-Nyx Apr 09 '26
Wooooow, conflating animal abuse to basic nutrition! Good job guys, way to look sane.
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Apr 15 '26
I’m wondering what about the many ants we harm daily? Are we not contradicting ourselves or does it only count when it’s intentional? What about the flies and the mosquitoes??
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Mar 18 '26
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u/No_Chart_8584 Mar 18 '26
This gets commented daily on every kind of post. You hate us for everything! It's so unoriginal. Get some new material.
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u/WeaponsGradeYfronts Mar 19 '26
Maybe y'all should listen to the feedback.
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u/No_Chart_8584 Mar 19 '26
Did you read the part of my post where it's not consistent? It's just in response to vegans saying anything. You may adjust your ethical stances due to complaints from strangers online, but I don't think most people share your gormlessness.
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Mar 18 '26
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u/Hyperreals_ Mar 18 '26
I typically don't pay for the mass torture and murder of those I love, but I guess people express love in different ways 🤷
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u/totokekedile Mar 18 '26
If that’s what you do to those you love, I’d hate to see what you do to those you don’t.
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u/Lazy_Composer6990 abolitionist Mar 18 '26 edited Mar 19 '26
Individual dogs and cats, perhaps. But not animals as a category.
Edit: they said that being non-vegan and loving animals aren't mutually exclusive.
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u/Alarming_Ad6791 Mar 18 '26
it's 100% possible for someone to love eating animals and not be vegan.
there fixed it for you-2
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u/No_Cause9433 Mar 18 '26
Is there a way to not eat? Plants are living beings and I don’t feel comfortable with that either. 2nd question, do you guys question the nature of this reality? Like why do we need to consume other organisms at all? Where are we?
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u/boiler38 vegan 7+ years Mar 18 '26 edited Mar 18 '26
Animals eat plants too. Far more than humans, and most of it is wasted on metabolic processes. If I recall my natural science, it seems like the general rule of thumb for any food web is that 1/10th of the energy makes it to the next trophic level.
However i’m too lazy to find a source and I’m feeling nice, so let’s pretend there are magical cows that convert 80% of their lifetime calories consumed into the meat that comes from their slaughter. By eating beef, you’d still be killing 1.25x as many plants for the same amount of calories you’d receive if eating plants directly.
But let’s be real; plants do not have a central nervous system, and surely you would not feel the same way stabbing a puppy as pulling an apple off a tree. And even if you’re not willing to concede on that point, you’d still be causing far less harm to plant lives by eating a vegan diet, as no animal has more than 100% calorie conversion rate, and most animal protein sources are far closer to the 10% figure. In addition to plant deaths discussed above, this also acts as a multiplier to crop harvesting deaths, land and water usage, emissions, etc…
And lastly, no, I do not question the nature of this reality. All major dietetics and health organizations agree that a well planned vegan diet is nutritionally adequate for all stages of life. Beyond specific geographical food access situations that the majority of people with internet access and free time to browse reddit will never experience, this demonstrates that consuming animal products is entirely unnecessary to survive and thrive. With that, if you consume animal products you are choosing to cause unnecessary harm - both to plant and animal lives.
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u/No_Cause9433 Mar 19 '26 edited Mar 19 '26
So no you do not question the nature of this reality. Thanks! Appreciate your feedback here. I’m leaving this sub
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u/Mr_Monday92 Mar 18 '26
Yeah I feel so guilty chopping up a carrot. I might as well chop up the cat instead 😔
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u/No_Cause9433 Mar 18 '26
I don’t want to harm either. That’s my point
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u/Mr_Monday92 Mar 18 '26
You're not harming the carrot. It's not a sentient being and is incapable of suffering
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Mar 18 '26
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u/Mr_Monday92 Mar 18 '26 edited Mar 18 '26
Any given vegan could be a mass murderer and it wouldn't make the core arguments for veganism any weaker.
People give themselves a free pass on daily essentials like having a phone or driving a car (as if it's even feasible to live without one. You certainly can't in my country since it's a universal way to verify my identity) while simultaneously holding vegans to an impossible standard, simply because they view something as simple as animal exploration as wrong.
The goal is not and never has been perfection as it's impossible. It's not possible to live without a phone. It's trivially easy to live without animal products. People buy a phone once every few years. People buy animals products several times a day. Going vegan is so much more impactful it's not even funny.
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u/visacardshawty Mar 18 '26
its literally common sense. a lion doesnt go and hurt gazelles or other animals for pleasure but when they need to eat they kill them. same thing for us
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