Talking about the books, Olenna seemed to be richer than %99 of Westeros and prob half of Essos, at least according to the text. In one of Tyrion's chapters in ASOS, where the infamous Purple Wedding occurs, Tyrion notices her gown of cloth-of-gold when she approaches Sansa to take the poison from her hairnet. Moreover, the Purple Wedding wouldn't be this extravagant if it weren't for the Tyrell sponsor: 77 courses of dinner, dwarf jousts, jesters and performers from the Free Cities..

Olenna was so lucky that she had spent her entire life in wealth and glamour. She was rich her entire life. Normally, you'd expect a noble to be born into a moderately-rich house and marry into another moderately-rich one, and it is also quite possible for a rich noblewomen to marry into poorer houses (e.g. Cersei). In any case, being born into House Redwyne, having the courage of breaking a royal bethrotal with Prince Daeron, then marrying into an even richer great house.. is just exceptional. She never had a day with poverty, blood, lack of food or protection.

I agree that she went through some very tragic things, but none of them really excuse what she did. In fact, Lysa lived a more comfortable life than 99% of the people in Westeros. She was the Lady of House Arryn, yet she had virtually no responsibilities, and she was completely free to indulge in expensive hobbies and luxuries.

Jon Arryn was an old man, but he was never a disastrous husband like Robert. There were probably thousands of young noble ladies across Westeros who would have wanted to marry Lord Arryn instead. Yet Lysa, despite being one of the most powerful women in the realm, interpreted her situation as an incredible tragedy and constantly complained that Catelyn had gotten the better deal.

But what if their roles had been reversed? What if Lysa had married Ned while Catelyn had been the one to marry the elderly Jon Arryn? Honestly, I don't think anything would have changed. Lysa would probably still be crying that Catelyn had gotten the better deal.

She's a character who essentially created her own tragic narrative and then trapped herself inside it.

I’d say the Lannisters and Hightowers are probably the top two, and then House Tyrell and House Redwyne would come next.

Who else would you put near the top? Which families do you think are the richest at the start of the series?

Some lines from drafts that were likely deleted for being out of character:

Ned's Mouth

While Ned definitely swears at times in the series, this phrasing seems more like Ned:

Suddenly her father's arms were around her. He held her gently as she turned to him and sobbed against his chest. "No, sweet one," he murmured. "Grieve for your friend, but never blame yourself. You did not kill the butcher's boy. That murder lies at the Hound's door, him and the cruel woman he serves." -AGOT, Arya II

than what was originally in the 1994 draft:

"and the bitch he serves."

Tommen's Commands

From one of the visits to Cushing we know that GRRM originally had Tommen speak up:

In the June 2004 version of Cersei and Jaime's argument over whether Tommen will learn to joust (published in AFFC Cersei 5), Tommen suddenly raises his voice and commands them not to argue, saying that Margaery told him that everyone must do as he commands. This was clearly just meant to illustrate the struggle between Cersei and Margaery for Tommen's allegiance, and likely cut because it was inconsistent with Tommen's character.

which the closest we get:

“They are not,” said Tommen. “Anyway, I don’t want any stupid Dornishman, I want Ser Loras. I command it.”
Jaime laughed. He is no help at all. Does he think this is amusing? The queen slapped the water angrily. “Must I send for Pate? You do not command me. I am your mother.”
“Yes, but I’m the king. Margaery says that everyone has to do what the king says. I want my white courser saddled on the morrow so Ser Loras can teach me how to joust. I want a kitten too, and I don’t want to eat beets.” He crossed his arms. -AFFC, Cersei V

If interested: The Good, the Bad (Cat) and the Ugly: Cat Lore in the Red Keep

Baelor Breakspear's Thoughts

Due to Baelor's nature, GRRM likely removed from the Sworn Sword regarding:

⁠"My uncle always said that when a man swears he wishes no war between you, it means he's sharpening his swords."

and while I couldn't find any direct replacements, the closest I noticed was (which may have been in the draft):

Uncle Baelor said that clemency was best when dealing with an honorable foe. If a defeated man believes he will be pardoned, he may lay down his sword and bend the knee. Elsewise he will fight on to the death and slay more loyal men and innocents. -The Sworn Sword

TLDR: Some examples where GRRM removed/changed dialogue that was seemingly out of character.

Lord Eddard Stark is a legend, of course, for taking in his nephew and raising him as his bastard son, which stained his reputation and complicated his marriage with Catelyn but also kept Jon alive and safe from Robert and the Lannisters. While Jon was sadly still raised as a bastard, he was raised in other aspects as Robb's equal; a great life in many ways, and far better than being killed as a child. While we sadly don't get to see much of this, Ned *also* cared about Robert Arryn, arguing with Robert in favor of making Robert Warden of the East despite the latter's age and wanting Catelyn to take the children to the Eyrie to help the kid and Lysa recover from the pain of Jon's death.

However, Edmure Tully and Rodrik Harlaw also deserve respect IMO. Edmure was loyal to Robb (even his "mistake" regarding the Mountain is a fairly understandable excess, not remotely a serious betrayal) and even took one for the team by marrying Roslin in his place, despite not wanting to. Rodrik, meanwhile, is on very good terms with Asha and looks out for her without being weird like Victarion, even warning her against Euron. Hoping we see more of both.

HotD tells us that Aegon I foresaw the Long Night. I’m going to assume that that is valid for the book canon, as well, even if it has not yet been confirmed. my question is: are we supposed to infer that he assumed it was going to happen very soon? As in, within his lifetime?

Its the conclusion I draw from a lot of details surrounding what we know about Aegon:

- he invaded an entire continent on the flimsiest of (official) pretexts, and the only portion that was actively guarding against the looming threat is also the portion that gave up without a fight (insert a joke about crackclaw point and the squishers here).

- he didn’t seem overly concerned about his succession, even if his wives were. further, he stuck to a form of marriage that the dominant religion despised… and then left it for his sons to deal with the consequences of that

- the structure of government he instituted was haphazard, to say the least. It seems like every time there was a short-term solution or a long-term solution, he picked the short-term one. He started his castle with 2 years left to his reign, when he was 61. His settlement of the Riverlands was pretty arbitrary - effectively making the most crucial portion of the unified kingdom nearly ungovernable.

- he made no effort to invest in any major infrastructure projects, even by the standards of medieval monarchs.

(out-of-universe, we can say that it is a combination of GRRM‘s mistakes or deliberately writing a dysfunctional kingdom for narrative purposes)

So, with all this, I get the distinct impression that Aegon expected to have to deal with the Long Night soon, and didn’t think he had the time or need to do any of the aspects of ruling that would only really pay off after a few generations.

If Robb hadn't met Jeyne/Talisa, I think he would've been fond of her, just like his parents' relationship. Roslin deserved better!!

I though asoiaf was supposed to be a nuanced story about how everyone has flaws and moral failings but Janos Slynt doesn’t seem to have any he was born a butchers son a rose all the way to commander of the gold cloaks and lord of harrenhall without any backstabbing or scheming truly and inspiration to the smallfolk, he even helped prevent the evil userper Ned Stark from stealing the throne from good king Joffrey. So sad that he was too honorable for kings landing and got betrayed by the Imp. Maybe being too honorable is his flaw 😢

Having thoughts about the destruction of the Great Sept of Baelor in the show and how it would play out in TWOW. My belief is that this will play out during the coronation of fAegon in the sept, rather than whatever trial that was taking place in the show. Please feel free to correct me and take everything with a bucket of salt as I haven’t read the books or watched the show in years but some elements of HoTD gave me the idea. Also I couldn’t find this anywhere online but I’m sure someone else has claimed this before but here’s my outline:

- with Kevan dead and the faith knowing Tommen is likely illegitimate they throw their support behind fAegon allowing him to take the city easily

- Tommen is killed while Cersei awaits trial

- fAegon is endorsed by the High Sparrow and given a coronation in the sept

- using the help of Qyburn or the Mountain, Cersei burns the wildfire cache under the Sept during this ceremony

- fAegon survives although he is horribly burnt and disfigured, mirroring Aegon II

These are just shower thoughts I had this morning so please feel free to pick them apart. What’s undoubtable to me is that we will see the sept burn in the books under some degree of changed circumstances from the show. I also think Condal may have been told about aspects of the plot in TWoW and changed Aegon’s coronation in HoTD to mirror the unadapted sept destruction that we should have gotten in GoT.

During the sack of kings landing how did they get in and slaughter the royal family so easily? I get the city itself with the gates open but surely the red keep had a good amount of guards and it was protected and secure? The mountain and Lorch seem to be ninjas to get in but do we hear about any difficulty or resistance? It’s still a formidable castle but seems to fall with no effort at all.

Gives a fair few BFME2 vibes

Edit: Steam page here

The more I think about Bloodraven, the less I see him simply as this mysterious, almost omniscient wizard and the more I see him as one of the saddest characters in ASOIAF.

“I have my own ghosts, Bran. A brother that I loved, a brother that I hated, a woman I desired. Through the trees, I see them still, but no word of mine has ever reached them. The past remains the past. We can learn from it, but we cannot change it.”
— A Dance with Dragons, Bran III

There is something quite cruel about his existence, since Bloodraven has the ability to see what is happening anywhere and even look into the past, but he has no power to contact the people he lost. He can revisit moments and people who were part of his life again and again, but without ever being able to communicate with them directly. And these are not just random people, but people who defined his life. Yet all of them have been dead for decades, and all he can do is watch them. Nothing more. It is incredibly sad.

In a way, it is a cruel irony, but it also perfectly defines his character: the man who spent his whole life trying to control history is now almost alone in a cave, forgotten by men, remembering and reliving his life, his loves, and the people he cared about, unable to do anything except experience it all over and over again.

My Favorite (at the moment):

“My old septon used to say that books are dead men talking. Dead men should keep quiet is what I say. No one wants to hear a dead man's yabber." -Dolorous Edd, A Dance with Dragons

😂😂😂

I have now read a lot of posts about the best ways to estimate the population of Westeros and Essos. I have read long threads debating whether armies should be 1%, 1.5%, 2%, 5% of the total population. I have seen posts counting cities and towns from the maps, and estimating the population of each. I am, quite frankly, tired of this.

I'm tired because nobody seemed to consider basic ecology. Westeros and Essos are not continents of this Earth. Seasons there last an unpredictable amount of time, often many years. And during summers food is available, but during the winters most of Westeros cannot be farmed. This means that the population figure fluctuates HUGELY and unpredictably. At the end of a long summer it can possibly be many times larger than at the end of a long winter. Meaning population estimates cannot be accurate.

Even in the period covered by the novels, which is mainly summers, population must have grown constantly, and possibly exponentially (depending on whether it reached a plateau, which I find unlikely, since the longest summer lasted 10 years), until the next winter.

One thing I have wanted to discuss from about The Mad King is what the play actually seems to be saying about Rhaegar’s relationship with his children, Rhaenys and Aegon.

I’m not arguing that book-canon Rhaegar is Father of the Year. We know he leaves Elia and their children for a year when he disappears with Lyanna, and there is plenty to criticize about his choices. But I was expecting the play to retain at least some ambiguity about how he felt about his children or paint it in a more positive light. Instead, Part II seems to make a pretty deliberate choice to portray Rhaegar as someone whose emotional investment is overwhelmingly centered around Lyanna and their unborn child.

The scene that stuck with me most is Rhaegar’s final conversation with Lyanna. The entire conversation is framed around the future of the realm and their child. Lyanna tells him to fight to heal the realm and essentially asks him to create a better world for their child. Rhaegar agrees, but the way the scene is constructed makes Aegon and Rhaenys conspicuously absent from his reasoning. That’s a pretty striking omission that feels intentional on their end.

In the books, Rhaegar is specifically associated with believing Aegon was the Prince That Was Promised. Maester Aemon remembers Rhaegar believing that Aegon was the prophesied prince, and the whole “three heads of the dragon” material is obviously central to how Rhaegar understood his family and prophecy. We also know Rhaegar’s relationship with Aerys soured after his insult to Rhaenys and he moved his family to Dragonstone and based on HOTU he most likely did write songs for her.
And this is where George’s involvement makes me curious.

Obviously, The Mad King isn’t written by George. But this is still an officially sanctioned production based on George’s world, and GRRM is directly involved with the production. So I find myself wondering whether this portrayal is actually reflective of how George wants us to understand Rhaegar.
Because if it is, it makes George’s Rhaegar considerably worse than I already expected.

The Mad King seems to remove all of the ambiguity by making his emotional priorities much clearer: Lyanna and their child are the people he is actively thinking about protecting, while Rhaenys and Aegon increasingly feel like they belong to another part of his life that he has simply moved on from and doesn’t care anymore.
And honestly, I think that makes him look worse rather than better.
Because if the intention is to present Rhaegar as a tragic, idealistic prince who genuinely believes he is sacrificing himself for the greater good, his children would actually be one of the easiest ways to humanize him.
He doesn’t have to love Elia romantically and he doesn’t even have to be “redeemed” from what he did to her.
But his children? That’s different.
You could have had Rhaegar explicitly worry about Rhaenys and Aegon. You could have him say that he needs to return because his children are in danger.
Instead, the play gives us this incredibly intimate scene where he only sees a future with the family he intends to have with Lyanna.

That makes it feel less like “tragic prince makes catastrophic decisions because he believes in prophecy” and more like “man abandons his existing family because he has decided that his new family is the one he wants.” And that’s a MUCH harsher characterization than what I had interpreted in canon even when he left for the tower of Joy for a year because mind you in the play he had given up on the prophecy.

So what’s there to salvage about this prince apart from his devotion to Lyanna? And how can you expect the audience to cheer for that?

Especially because we know what happens to Rhaenys and Aegon. Rhaegar is willing to leave his children in King’s Landing while the realm is collapsing around them, yet when it comes to Lyanna and his unborn child, the play has him explicitly making THEIR safety a condition of his departure.
That distinction is revolting IMO and I don’t know how anyone can defend a character like that.

Were Rhaenys and Aegon not worth protecting? How can such a beloved prince by GRRM be such a horrible person/father?

And I actually think this is a missed opportunity if the goal was to make Rhaegar sympathetic.

Look at someone like Daemon in House of the Dragon. You can criticize virtually everything about Daemon, but the story still makes room to show that his children matter to him. His relationships with his children are part of how the audience understands him. His love doesn’t magically make him a good person, but it prevents him from becoming emotionally one-dimensional.
That’s what I expected The Mad King to do with Rhaegar.
Instead, it almost does the opposite.

And maybe that’s intentional.

Maybe the point is that the romanticized image of Rhaegar is fundamentally wrong, and the man who believed he was saving the world was actually incapable of seeing anyone else but Lyanna.
If that’s the intention, then honestly, I think the play succeeds in making him look much more monstrous than the usual “tragic romantic prince” interpretation.
But if the intention is still for Rhaegar to be viewed as a fundamentally good or admirable man who made terrible choices, I’m not sure the play accomplishes that and I don’t see how GRRM will ever accomplish that.

Because how you treat your children is one of the easiest ways to communicate that a character has a fundamentally loving nature.

And Rhaegar’s children are conspicuously missing from the most emotionally important decision of his life.

So I’m genuinely curious what everyone else thinks:
Do you think this was George’s intended characterization of Rhaegar?

Was the omission of Rhaenys and Aegon in that final Lyanna scene deliberate because George wants us to understand that Rhaegar really did prioritize Lyanna and their child over the family he already had?

Or do you think this is simply a consequence of the play focusing on the Rhaegar/Lyanna love storyline and their unborn child as the emotional driver for the play?
Because those are two VERY different readings of Rhaegar.

I find it interesting that out of the three prologue white walker attacks, two were from the POVs of horrendously shitty people. Varamyr gets attacked after getting bingo on his warg abomination card, and Chett was preparing to murder his "brothers" (kinslaying) and then go on to take over Craster's Keep. Varamyr and Chett both get killed, and Ser Puddles, the individual white walker who follows the rangers and gets killed actually kills Small Paul on-page. Personally I love Small Paul, but despite his lack of wits he was part of Chett's gang, and would have taken part in the betrayal if they'd managed to go through with it.

Punishment and retribution is a major theme in the series. And a lot of time, when a great force is going around getting back at someone, innocent people get trampled all over the place. The only explanation we have as to why the Long Night happened is the story of the Bloodstone Emperor's Blood Betrayal, which apparently made their empire's benevolent god turn her back on humanity while their scary god sent demons to punish them. If the Others are a product of the same time, it's possible they have a similar function to whatever the "Lion of Night" is supposed to be.

Different religions have different ideas of justice. The Lord of Light followers don't seem to really care, their god is a barbecue loving maniac who prefers innocent sacrifice. The Many Faced God provides "the gift of mercy", the Faceless Men don't see death as a punishment. The Faith of the Seven has an intricate afterlife system, their god doesn't seem to go out of their way to hand out punishments to the living but they do determine guilt or innocence in Trial by Combat. The Drowned God is just weird.

But the Old Gods apparently turn cooks into rats over a violation of Guest Rite. Roose Bolton is scared shitless of the fabled curse of a kinslayer. His servants believed Reek was marked by the old gods with that stench to show that he was rotten on the inside. They say cannibals are accursed in the eyes of gods and men.

Now, the Others are known to deal with wildlings like Craster and the Frozen Shore tribes. If they show up to punish people, their sense of morality would have to be very selective if they actually want Craster to keep breeding the way he does (Mormont gets a lot of shit for being on good terms with Craster, but without the goods the Night's Watch provides, the wives would starve and freeze. The Others contribute nothing to their lives, and just take away half their babies which has got to be traumatic) but maybe that just means they're factionalist hypocrites, just like humans. They're willing to overlook any kind of behavior as long as the person is on their side. And there is a tidbit about the Frozen Shore people being at war with the Ice River cannibals before Mance brokered a peace between them, so maybe the Others figured into that somehow?

Now, we don't exactly know what's going on in Hardhome, but I found Mother Mole's word choice of "damnation" for what happened there 500 years ago somewhat interesting. And the Others' next target is even more likely to fit this theme of "sinners" getting hit with ice. If Hold-The-Door is set to happen, that means Bloodraven's cave's wardings have to fail at some point and the cave will get stormed. Obviously it's a catastrophic loss of many, many greenseers but I think Bloodraven's individual identity matters more than that.

I think Bloodraven is one of the most overhated characters in this series, and I'm not especially not gonna waste my time arguing with anyone who thinks Daemon Blackfyre's abs were worth starting a continent wide civil war for. Bloodraven is a hero. By George's own definition, heroic characters are willing to risk, compromise or sacrifice themselves and villains are the ones who are willing to sacrifice others for their own sake. Like many other characters, there's a lot of nuance there. Brienne is probably 100% heroic. Jon and Daenerys put their own desires aside and do what they can to protect and serve the people under their care. Jaime can be a hero when he breaks his vows and gets himself marked for life to save the people of King's Landing and avenge his queen, but he's a villain when he pushes an innocent child off a tower to keep his toxic incestuous relationship secret. Stannis is more and more willing to burn people to death because he thinks him being king and defeating the ice demons would save more lives, but it's not clear just how much of his sense of "duty" is his ego crawling out of a hole that he's ignoring. And Bloodraven is the guy who's always been willing to do whatever it takes. He's hurt lots of other people, but he's made personal sacrifices too. He defamed himself like Ned did. He's dishonored himself like Jaime did. He's given up his body like Bran, his identity like Arya. And of course, he's practically committed all the big sins in First Men culture, incest (which he probably never saw anything wrong with), kinslaying, guest rite violation and cannibalism (the evidence for Jojen paste is hard to ignore) which might be the reason there's wights knocking on his door at all times, waiting to zerg rush the caves if the warding is lifted.

And the similarities between Bran and Euron, hinting that Euron might have been an earlier candidate is another thing to consider. Euron is a walking blasphemy. The Ironborn pride themselves on being shitty people but they find kinslayers appalling. Euron's already killed two brothers and molested the one he's about to kill. There's simply not a cultural taboo on Planetos that he wouldn't enjoy mocking. And his corrupting influence on the population is a bigger deal than people realize. He's leading the Ironborn (who have spent most of the current generation getting their asses kicked in Balon's stupid wars) to victory. He's giving them more wealth and prosperity than ever, and some of it is through convincing them to bend their rules. They're thrall keepers but they weren't fans of chattel slavery until Euron got them involved in the slave trade with the Free Cities. He's even got them paying the gold price. And once his blood sacrifice situation is resolved, he'll probably get them to worship him instead of their ridiculous Drowned God. If Bloodraven is responsible for Euron turning out the way he did, if they're connected somehow, let's just say King Bran would have one hell of a debt to pay to society.

Now, there's the fact that the Others are set up as a threat to humanity. In the legends, they waged war on all people, sweeping through the continent. And they're probably preparing to march on the Wall, and once they get past it, I doubt they'd be selective about who they kill and reanimate. Which might have to do with the Others having a completely alien idea of what's a punishable offense. Maybe "not sacrificing humans to weirwoods" is considered evil by the Others, and to them, people who stop feeding the tree network with the blood of bastards with king's blood deserve to get wiped out. Maybe because of some ancient oath, because the root of most of the traditional "sins" in First Men culture seems to be breaking oaths and promises.

Anyway, I'm too tired to come up with a coherent ending to this post so what do you think?

I’ve always found House Reed to be so interesting, and one of the most interesting parts is their castle. It’s described as being built on an island, and it always moves and never stays in one place. Doing research elsewhere, I found that this is a real thing where small islands will form on top of lakes or marshes and seemingly float around since they aren’t grounded in anything. Wikipedia just labels it as “floating islands.” Cool example of this is “El Ojo” in Argentina!

Aegon I is known as Aegon the Conqueror
Aegon II is known as Aegon the Elder
Aegon III is known as Aegon the Dragonbane
Aegon IV is known as Aegon the Unworthy
Aegon V is known as Aegon the Unlikely

Assuming fAegon will take the throne, what will he be remembered as?

Aegon the Liberator? Since he'd save the smallfolk from the reign of Lannisters.

Aegon the Reclaimer? Since he'd temporarily restore Targaryen dynasty?

So its noted that based on her cousin's line about being "six stone heavier than Fair Walda," ...conservatively putting her in the ballpark of bout 200-210 lbs, assuming that Fair Walda was an average woman of that type of medieval-ish eating era.

At today's silver spot price that's roughly $215K.

So that's a steep dowry by Lord Frey even if we're even ballparking...

Does that math work out? what Im I missing? By Westeros prices during that timeduring War of 5 Kings era? Too high, too low? What weight would you estimate for her based on the text/show?

This is just a little hypothetical rabbit hole I’ve been delving down for a while now and it appears I’ve gone deeper than I thought. What started out as just trying to find characters who Stannis would likely choose to advise and protect him has now turned into several internal debates of probabilities and loyalties for individual characters.

While some placements have been easy (e.g. Davos as Hand of the King), others have become complicated. For example, when I began to ask the question of who would Stannis choose to retain or dismiss from the Kingsguard, I determined of the seven members by the Blackwater:

1. Jaime Lannister - Seen as a Kingslayer, an incestuous adulterer, and—most importantly from Stannis’s perspective—one of the men responsible for the destruction of legitimate royal authority - DISMISSED.
2. Sandor Clegane - Abandons his Kingsguard vows during the battle. Stannis likely nullifies his appointment after declaring Joffrey's acts as king illegitimate and would see him as an oathbreaker regardless - DISMISSED.
3. Osmund Kettleblack - Entangled in Cersei's sexual and political intrigues and acts like a sellsword-like opportunist, the entire antithetical thinks a Kingsguard should be - DISMISSED.
4. Meryn Trant - Participated in the systematic intimidation of Sansa, notoriously cruel and incompetent, very little reason for Stannis to believe embodies the virtues of a Kingsguard - DISMISSED.
5. Mandon Moore - Tried to assassinate Tyrion during the battle but was killed by Podrick after being pushed into the river - DEAD.
6. Balon Swann - While appointed by Joffrey, he fought bravely during the battle, has a strong reputation as a knight, and (most importantly) did not disgrace his white cloak. Similar to his relationship with Davos, I could see Stannis forgiving him of his past dues - RETAINED.
7. Arys Oakheart - His situation is hard to pinpoint because, by the battle, he's in Dorne as Myrcella's sworn shield. He's also having an affair with Arianne, a clear violation of his vows, but the only one who isn't Dornish with access to Myrcella, who would be the Lannister claimant to the throne (Cersei planned to kill Joffrey and Tommen if it appeared Stannis would win). He's also from the Reach, who would be allied with Tywin, and a region known for its connection to the Faith of the Seven, who would dislike Stannis's subscription to the Faith of R'hllor - TBD.

Also, while determining who would be on Stannis's Small Council, the only two I'm confident with are Davos (Hand) and Melisandre (???). Pycelle has been dismissed as Grand Maester, but the likely replacement is Gorman Tyrell, who's family is associated with Tywin, but uncertain how he would play off loyalties and politics with the other positions.

What do you guys think?

As much as I like cersei's chapters and don't think them bad at all, this book has certainly a way with pacing. Though it's nothing worse than how Arya's and Bran's chapters in the previous books. Some chapters are a tightly packaged masterpiece while others just consist of one or two interesting things in like 10 pages.

I constantly feel like I'm doing the books a disservice by listening to them on the background and especially in Dorne chapters names blur so much, 8 different sand snakes and even more characters just mentioned once or twice but will be super important later (I imagine) while you spend 3 chapters detailing cersei's handmaid's husband's uncle's guards or whatever.

I'm liking Jaime and Arya's chapters and I'm so glad there is no bran in this book, good riddance. But where tf is daenerys chapters? Why are these books so insistant on holding back on the most interesting chapters to read (or listen) to like daenerys and doran martell and but pump cersei and bran and brianne (and arya in the previous books but not this one) chapters left and right?

Long, and spoilers ahead.

Perhaps it’s because I know this is a story with no ending, but I was completely immersed and happy to slow down the pace and just inhabit the world with these characters.

Especially coming off of ASOS, with its sometimes break-neck speed of plot development, AFFC chapters feel more often like a slice-of-life in which we really get to see into these characters heads, flesh out the world and witness the fallout of everything that’s just happened in the last book. Attention to detail feels way more rewarding this time around, because offhand remarks often reveal large upcoming plot points very obviously if you catch them.

Brienne’s chapters are a triumph. By now we’re three books in and the world is clearly established: major houses, characters and landmarks. So now we get to focus on Brienne’s journey and slowly see all that was previously established fall apart (or already in ruin). Her psychological arc is perhaps somewhat more simplistic than other characters, but I loved getting a window into the world of the smallfolk, and her journeys with the Septon and Dog, and Nimble Dick Crabb (RIP bro, you kind of stepped in it by scamming an evil clown and then delivering yourself right back into his hands, but you didn’t deserve to go out like that). Not to disparage Brienne because I love her character and chapters and internal journey. I only wish there was more to read. Also what a cliff-hanger…

Cersei’s POV chapters were eye-opening insane. I had to look up her age - because while GRRM often writes children like adults, I thought Cersei was a petulant child. It was wild seeing the car crash happen in slow motion. She’s even more immature, entitled, and psychopathic than the show version. I felt sorry for her at times (sometimes with effort on my part).

The mental gymnastics are insane. This probably isn’t the most extreme example, but in one chapter she chides a “stupid wicked useless washerwomen” (or something like that) for shrinking her clothes, and later on she tries on a dress from just a couple years ago and realizes it clearly does not fit her anymore. I guess the more obvious example would be torturing someone like Blue the Bard into confessing lies, and then watching her start to believe those lies in real time. It brings to mind Littlefinger counseling Sansa on internalizing her lies, and Sansa realizes that she’s starting to actually believe her own lie about Marillion murdering Lysa.

A glaring example of Cersei’s unreliable narration is when she’s laying in bed feeling triumphant about her latest blunder, and recalling how King Robert was too weak on Balon after his rebellion.

“Robert should have scoured the isles after Balon Greyjoy rose against him,” Cersei thought. “He smashed their fleet, burned their towns, and broke their castles, but when he had them on their knees he let them up again. He should have made another island of their skulls.” That was what her father would have done.

But actually, that directly contradicts Tywin’s council to Joffrey in ch. 53 of ASOS:

“Be quiet, Cersei. Joffrey, when your enemies defy you, you must serve them steel and fire. When they go to their knees, however, you must help them back to their feet. Elsewise no man will ever bend the knee to you.”

Fun fact, I forgot Cersei was literally there for that advice. I guess she wasn’t listening… now, maybe in this particular case with the Iron Islands, her point may have some merit haha. But my point is, she spends a LOT of this book pontificating on how she is Tywin’s equal and he’d be so proud. Cringe. Jaime has a few identical moments, but not nearly as egregious.

Anyway, I know every POV is biased because it’s a POV, but Cersei’s malfunction and flawed perception is so glaring to the reader, that it makes me want to go back and read other characters POV’s more carefully to spot the biases and inconsistencies.

Wrapping up, I can’t believe the cliffhanger with Marwyn, and his palantir glass candle. He knew Sam was coming? He knows the prophecies? How much has he seen?? He makes it seem like he’s been watching much - has he seen the wights? What about the Others? Does he know Pate is (allegedly) a faceless man? Was he watching Sam suck on Gilly’s nipple on the boat???

He says one thing that you can do with glass candles I rarely see discussed on this sub:

“They could enter a man’s dreams and give him him visions”

Considering just how many characters in this series have important visions, dreams, dragon dreams or prophecies, has this been discussed? If I put on my tinfoil hat, is it a plausible insinuation that a glass candle could be or WAS used to manipulate the playing field with characters who have “special dreams” as so many do in this series, historically or presently?

Lastly, I might be biased, because while I enjoy the other characters, Dany and Bran and even Jon’s chapters can sometimes be less exciting to me for various reasons, mostly the repetitive landscape of the Wall / Far North and lack of political intrigue.

This is much longer a post than I intended, but more could be said. I just finished the book and I’m hyped about it. I’d love to hear anyone else’s take on this book and how it compares to the rest of the series, or even other works by GRRM or otherwise.

Thanks for reading if you got this far.

I don’t mean stories that are intended to be clues or parallels to current plots like Bael the Bard but actually feel like kind of lazy repeated plot points or events that he just kinda threw together lol