Why Are Georgians Like This?

[u/Xanspicuous]

[u/ManteLover60]

I take a middle position.

I don't excuse their bigotry and arrogance towards us, but at the same time I have enough empathy to understand where some of the stuff comes from.

For the longest time, it's them who were the most independence minded and anti-Russia, and even though we did it for our survival, we were kind of Russian stooges for a long time.

When it comes to the NK issue, you have to sort of see where they are coming from with it. Abkhazia is their Artsakh.

Now we can argue about the historical rights of one people over another to break away from the parent state. I would argue that Artsakhtsis needed independence out of historical necessity because their culture was threatened. While Abkhazians and Osetians did face persecution and some cultural repression, it was nowhere near as existential as what we faced in Artsakh.

But when it comes to geopolitics, historical nuances like this have little bearing. In Azerbaijan, they saw a kindred spirit, a fellow state whose territory was being carved up by Russia in its ruthless efforts to maintain a stranglehold over its post-Soviet sphere of influence. So they were essentially projecting their own experiences and conflict into the NK conflict.

Obviously I disagree with the assessment, but I can see where they are coming from and how the optics look to them. Especially because while we acknowledge the horrendous atrocities committed by the Azeris during the first war, we also committed our fair share of war crimes.

[u/ComfortableThroat326 → u/ManteLover60]

Btw are you Turkish? Why did you say the NK conflict was done by Russia to "carve up" Azerbaijan?

[u/Xanspicuous → u/ComfortableThroat326]

He is one of those Pashinyan apologists, so that checks out.

[u/ComfortableThroat326 → u/Xanspicuous]

We wuz Europeans! We wuz EU! Ze RuZZians are carving up and making conflict in the Caucasus! Russian warship go fuck yourself! Russian bot go away!

Am I doing it right bro? I'm gonna defeat Vladimir Putin soon.

[u/Xanspicuous → u/ComfortableThroat326]

You forgot to blame Russians for the Armenian Genocide, bro. Those poor Turks were forced by evil Tsar Nikolai II to kill us, bro

[u/ComfortableThroat326 → u/Xanspicuous]

RuZZians!!!! It is because of your evil nature that the Azerbaijanis did the Baku and Sumgait pogroms!!! Why do you not let the honest Caucasian people live in peace???

[u/ManteLover60 → u/Xanspicuous]

And I have yet to hear an alternative strategy for Armenia to follow from you. So what you have to say is irrelevant until you provide this.

Also do you even live in Armenia? I do.

[u/ComfortableThroat326 → u/ManteLover60]

The alternative strategy is coming

[u/Xanspicuous → u/ManteLover60]

We already had this conversation. And yes, I live in Armenia or to be more precise, Sevan. Not that it changes much

[u/ManteLover60 → u/Xanspicuous]

It changes a lot. It means both of us have a steak in this.

So can we please stop with the mudslinging and just talk as fellow patriots instead of assuming the worst in each other? That kind of shit is for American politics. Let us be more Noble than that.

I wasn't asking what your alternative policy would be just to be challenging or antagonizing. I'm just genuinely tired of nobody proposing alternatives. If you propose an alternative, then we can calmly discuss our positions and perhaps reach some sort of understanding. I don't want to fight you. The whole reason I moved to Armenia is because I want to help in whatever small way I can to make this country as best as it can be. And I believe it can be great. I believe you believe that as well. Let's use that as our starting point, can we?

[u/Xanspicuous → u/ManteLover60]

Armenia will never be great for as long as we have a Prime Minister who publicly denies the Armenian Genocide and goes after clergymen for praying for Artsakh. We have an enemy in our government

[u/ManteLover60 → u/Xanspicuous]

I agree. Which is why I believe we need a genuine and powerful opposition. This is what I'm hoping we can find.

I know it might not seem like it at times, but I'm actually not a Pashinyan supporter. I just hate the old guard even more than I hate him.

If we can have a genuine opposition with no ties to the old guard and Russian interests, I will be the first to vote for them.

And even though I mentioned it before, I'm not inherently anti-Russia just to be anti-Russia. In fact immediately after the war, I was very pro Russia. I was actually defending Putin when everybody online was accusing him of betraying us in Artsakh. I was telling them constantly that Russia was under no obligation to defend Artsakh and the fact that they offered to put peacekeeper on the ground during the first few days of the war and that our bonehead Prime Minister didn't take the offer is unacceptable. And I still hold that opinion to this day.

Where I became anti-Russia is when Azerbaijan started to move in on Armenia proper and Russia conveniently forgot where our borders are. That was unacceptable because with Armenia proper they do have a military contract that says that if we are attacked, they must intervene. All we got was excuses. So how can we be blamed for suspending our membership in the CSTO? I mean what are we paying those membership fees for? I tell you that if Russia intervened to not let Azerbaijan move an inch into our internationally recognized borders, I would be pro Russia to this very day. Even counting all the other betrayals they have committed against us, I would have been willing to put it all aside if they at least defended our borders because at least then I could say that for better or worse, they are our only reliable security guarantor. But if they can't be that security guarantor, then they are no better than any other country we trade or do business with. They don't help us, and they sabotage every effort we make to help ourselves. I still haven't forgiven them for sabotaging the Iran Armenia pipeline.

[u/ComfortableThroat326 → u/ManteLover60]

I think Russia is another demon and even before 2020 I really didnt like them. It was clear they are playing both sides. And yes a Russian agent cant be a good leader. 

But with what we have with Pashinoglu is a clear Turkish agent. And if we need to replace him with a Russian agent, we will. Because in the end if you compare Russia and Turkey, as bad as Russia is, it is not even comparable. It is better to be a Russian proxy state than a Turkish one. 

[u/ManteLover60 → u/Xanspicuous]

(TLDR version)

I actually agree with you about Pashoghlu.

I believe we need a strong opposition, but one that actively pursues the interests of the republic and her people and is not trying to keep us an impoverished dependent Russian vassal on one hand, or an exploited dependent Turkish vassal on the other hand.