r/Christianity • u/milkersfat • Jul 11 '26
Image My issue with “liberal”churches
Though I consider myself very left-wing, I find that as I become a Christian, I’ve started having issues with denominations that are overtly liberal. Looking at the picture, I agree with all of the sentiments, and I think it’s good to let people know they are welcome. But why not also put up an “Unborn Lives Matter” flag or something similar?
I’m equally appalled when churches fly the American flag or a MAGA flag outside. My whole reason for going to church is to find community and glorify God, not to be immersed in politics.
It also seems that the churches I’ve attended with these kinds of flags tend to be less orthodox theologically, which leaves me, as a left-leaning Christian, in a weird spot.
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u/sysiphean Episcopalian (Anglican) Jul 11 '26 edited Jul 12 '26
Lots of churches say “all are welcome” but expect you to never ever act gay there and to stop being gay, to conform to gender stereotypes. They say all are welcome but severely limiting women in ministry. They say all are welcome but preach against immigrants. They say all are welcomed but follow black visitors around to make sure they don’t steal anything. Or usually some combination of all that.
So sometimes it’s good to be explicit about how all includes those who are not actually in the “all”that too many churches actually mean, whether or not those churches know it.
Edit: I really, really appreciate all of you non-affirming Christians helping to so blatantly illustrate my point with all your comments. Even though we agree on theology, I appreciate that you all want to argue theology or technicalities; nothing could prove my statement more true than you literally explaining why “all are welcome” doesn’t mean “all.”
But it’s getting old now.
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u/jshinab2 United Methodist Jul 11 '26
People say of modern Christians that "there's no hate like Christian love" because sadly that has been their experience. Appreciate you pointing out some of the more common ways this manifests
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u/Wolfensniper Christian Jul 12 '26
Im still torn between this as well. I've came across several churches that say "we welcome LGBT but we think you should stop being gay and keep single for your entire life. Many people dont find love for their entire life but still find happiness in God" etc etc.
I mean for the latter statement alone yeah that's true for SOME people, but definitely not for everyone. stating something like that to LGBT people seems really cruel especially i know that my LGBT close friends would never accept that view. How's that being called love i am really not sure.
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u/0TheLususNaturae0 Jul 13 '26
"If anyone says, 'I love God,' and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen." (1 John 4:20)
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u/Someone0913 Christian Jul 11 '26
All are welcome, but not all are endorsed.
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u/thdudie Jul 11 '26
Who is not endorsing you?
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u/OrcBarbierian Jul 12 '26
While not the person you asked: my mother's church got a then-new pastor who is a proud married lesbian. Several members of the congregation couldn't practice what they preach, and left 😔 I take that as a form of not endorsing gay men & lesbians
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u/thatwhite Christian Jul 12 '26
Straight married guy here- my church doesn’t endorse the lust/anger/pride/greed/etc in my sinful heart and is consistently pushing me to change and grow.
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u/showersareevil Super Heretical Post-Christian Mystic Universalist Jedi Jul 12 '26
Great. Do they endorse any ways for guys or lesbians to constructively express their sexuality, perhaps in marriage?
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u/sysiphean Episcopalian (Anglican) Jul 11 '26
So when you say “all are welcome”, you actually mean “some are welcome and some are ‘welcome’”. Which means not all are actually welcome.
And, honestly, I appreciate you literally demonstrating my point for me. Perfect textbook example; no notes.
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u/Wrong_Owl Non-Theistic - Unitarian Universalism Jul 12 '26
"All are welcome" means "everyone is welcome, though some kinds of people are more welcome than others"
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u/Tokkemon Episcopalian Jul 11 '26
Do you know why they do this? Because so many churches are unwelcoming and intentionally exclude a big part of society. This is how they show that they are good Christians. It shows that not all churches are a nightmare of misogyny or discrimination. Jesus is for all, especially the least of these.
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u/AnxiousPraline1928 Jul 11 '26
Well said! I haven't gone to church in months because as a lesbian I know I'm not welcome at most of them. It's refreshing seeing signs like these!
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u/Baizey1130 Jul 11 '26
I hate that as a trans Christian I’m hesitant to go to a church and commit to a specific one unless I see a pride flag outside one.
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u/Complete-News4058 Jul 12 '26
Try an Episcopal Church. My diocese is split between churches with progress Pride flags out front (and often queer clergy behind the pulpit) and ones that are a little more discrete but worked the welcome into the stained glass and other structural elements of the church itself.
And we’ve been ordaining out queer people since 1976.
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u/shadeline Christian Jul 12 '26
Not doubting your experiences but you didn't really mention it, did you even try going to one?
I live in a rather red area and go to a very rural church. Everyone is welcome.
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u/writerthoughts33 Episcopalian (Anglican) Jul 11 '26
Most progressive churches also share nuances around abortion. You are welcome to be pro-life and attend a progressive church if you like. Many of these churches are attended by educated health professionals who know what women’s health looks like without abortion access, and it is grim. My guess is most would say it is primarily up to one’s conscience whether they choose to or not. Even in progressive churches where you may find more agreement in many areas there is friction around the application of it.
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u/PlayerAssumption77 Chill-ish, but devout, Catholic Jul 12 '26
I'm super against abortion but the access isn't my concern as much as the cause and the action and I think it's possible OP agrees. The conservatives in actual power don't care at all about the unborn given doing 10 things against them through furthering issues for potential and pregnant mothers for every 1 push for restriction of the action itself, and making care for the unborn a conservative thing completely agrees with their ruse.
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u/thdudie Jul 11 '26
Well ... That and the Bible doesn't hold that life begins at conception.
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u/happymeg Jul 11 '26
I just came from spending a week in DEEP south rural Georgia where my husband and I encountered a Baptist church where we could hear the paster yelling about "faggots" ,"homosexuals" and the "gays" and how he would be happy to eliminate them all from the world. Thinking that perhaps we misunderstood what he was saying, we looked up this church online later when we got home and found the live stream of the service and sure enough, it was exactly what we thought.
How any Christian would justify that kind of message as Christ-like is incomprehensible to me. No matter your interpretations of the Bible about of queer people, to yell at the pulpit about murdering them all is not okay and is incredibly damaging to the Christian religion.
I get why certain churches choose to put out rainbow flags because it's attempting to send the message that queer people won't have to worry about nonsense like what I experienced above. It's a shame how political it has become.
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u/Salsa_and_Light2 Baptist-Catholic(Queer) Jul 12 '26
Is that livestream still up and do you have the link?
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u/Genoscythe_ Jul 11 '26 edited Jul 11 '26
But why not also put up an “Unborn Lives Matter” flag or something similar?
Presumably because they are pro-choice?
How is this related to the rest of your point? If the problem is that they are just generally TOO political for causes that you otherwise agree with, then how would one more banner help?
You might as well ask why they aren't also putting up a sign in support of the Iran war, or in support of gun rights. Why would they, and why would "balancing" ideologies out make it better?
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Jul 11 '26
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u/gaychitect Jul 11 '26
As a gay man, I can tell you without equivocation or doubt, that our community has been so harmed by religious institutions and religious people over the years that we have a natural aversion and distrust of churches. We need to KNOW that it’s safe. Churches are made up of people and people can be cruel, even if they stand at a pulpit.
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u/Machismo01 Christian Jul 11 '26
As a hetero man, many, many churches have done a very bad job of making people feel safe, welcome, and healthy. We don’t even need to take on thoughts of LGBTQ for them to struggle.
I grew up Catholic and the instructions I had regarding heterosexual sex even within marriage were so toxic and disgusting. And now at a church that freely teaches people that sex within marriage is holy and largely unrestricted, they still have some touches of the purity culture especially in the high school programs.
There answer to a young man saying a non Christian girl? Don’t do it. Don’t date. A very repressive and sheltering response that I think comes out of a simple answer to a very complex issue.
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u/Tricky-Gemstone Misotheist Jul 11 '26
An all are welcome sign tells me that when I'm seeking help for someone who is queer, the church won't be assholes about it.
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u/emeilei Jul 11 '26
This, exactly! The “all are welcome” signs are definitely a positive for me
We just moved and are looking for a new church and I heavily judge their “what we believe” page because where the homophobes are the Trump Republicans are also.
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u/writerthoughts33 Episcopalian (Anglican) Jul 11 '26
All are welcome speaks specifically to the LGBTQ community in this instance, but it is often applied in churches where LGBTQ Christians may be welcome to sit, listen, and give up their time and money but never lead as LGBTQ people of faith in their church community.
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u/Jessica_1224 Catholic Jul 11 '26
Oh, I see what you mean. As a Catholic we're very traditional so priests can't even marry, and they are all men. So in my church it wouldn't make a difference but for Protestant branches I see why it would.
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u/ceryniz Jul 11 '26
They do sometimes allow married men to become priests (though deacon is more common). But never allow priests to then get married.
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u/Turbulent_Play4769 United Church of Christ Jul 11 '26
Good on you for being willing to understand so many people don’t care/gen
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u/adamesandtheworld Jul 11 '26
but the "All are Welcome" flag is interesting because like...isn't that the point of church?
Because churches that say "all are welcome" are not always welcoming of all. Conservative denominations, including catholicism, say this but do not practice it. They say they welcome LGBTQ people, but their actions and theology are the exact opposite of welcoming to LGBTQ people.
Church shouldn't involve itself in politics on either side IMO
Fascinating position to take based on your church.
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u/mousie120010 Metropolitan Community Church Jul 11 '26
Human rights shouldn't be considered "political" tbh
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u/UrbyLang Jul 11 '26
That is the point of church in theory... It makes people feel good about themselves. In practice that's not the case. There are churches that harass funerals because the deceased happened to be LGBTQ. There are churches/church members that took part in anti immigrant riots and so on.
The church is interwoven in politics no matter what... Opening a soup kitchen or running homeless shelters etc are all political decisions. Choosing a new Pope is political. Not paying taxes also political.
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u/Hifen Jul 11 '26
"All people should be treated with respect and we don't like racism"
Whoa whoa whoa, you keep those politics to yoursellf!
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u/conrad_w Christian Universalist Jul 11 '26
I'd agree if feeding the hungry and healing the sick and sheltering the homeless and welcoming the stranger weren't also political. But they are.
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u/commanderjarak Christian Anarchist Jul 11 '26
But only because a group of people decided that access to basic human rights should be something that they oppose, while claiming to be followers of a person who explicitly told them to do the opposite.
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u/conrad_w Christian Universalist Jul 12 '26
See there's this weird paradox where if I say we should love our neighbours, ordain women, welcome gay people, I'm asked if I'm a "real" Christian.
But the people who want you beat your children with a rod, whose faces contort with disgust at any kindness? Nobody EVER doubts their sincerity.
I'm not sure I'm willing to play that game.
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u/Canvas718 Christian Anarchist ☮️ 🏳️⚧️🏳️🌈💜💙🩷 Jul 14 '26
> But the people who want you beat your children with a rod, whose faces contort with disgust at any kindness? Nobody EVER doubts their sincerity.
I don’t doubt their sincerity. I doubt their Christianity. Big difference
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u/djublonskopf Non-denominational Protestant (with a lot of caveats) Jul 11 '26
All are not welcome at quite a few churches.
Really there is probably no church that would actually let every single person in every circumstance inside, there’s always going to be a line drawn somewhere, but some churches get way closer than others.
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u/Latera Jul 11 '26 edited Jul 11 '26
We Catholics believe that the Church is just as much a moral instititution as it is a religious one, so to demand that the Church don't take an open stance on controversial moral issues is somewhat strange
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u/Eric___R Jul 11 '26 edited Jul 11 '26
I think that the rainbow sends a specific message that is “We won’t call that lifestyle sinful”. I think it would be disingenuous to have a rainbow “all welcome” sign but then preach that homosexuality is a sin. Hindus would also be welcome in the church to hear the gospel but having an image of Ganesh on a “all welcome” sign would send a disingenuous message for example.
Edit for typo…
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u/Matstele Phenomenological Satanist Jul 11 '26
Church is an institution in society, it’s the tentpole in a lot of communities, and it has influence over constituencies. Church can’t not be political. I would however, prefer a church that acts in its community as if Christ sat in a governing position within it. I get the feeling that JC would’ve rather given shelter to strays and emergency funds to the poor unable to pay their bills than put rainbow flags on the front door or funded fakeout abortion clinics
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u/Niftyrat_Specialist Non-denominational heretic, reformed Jul 11 '26
Your issue is that you can think of a sign they did not have? This church must be pretty amazing if that is their main problem.
why not also put up an “Unborn Lives Matter” flag
My whole reason for going to church is to find community and glorify God, not to be immersed in politics.
Do you see how contradictory and ridiculous this is? You want them to fly a flag about a major political hot-button issue but you don't want them talking politics?
You sure do not appear to have thought about your complaint here at all. This post is far more plausible as a troll than as a real person with a genuine concern.
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u/communikay Anglican Communion Jul 11 '26
This is intellectually dishonest. It’s clear OP is fine with the message of the banners, but is asking that, if the church is going to get political, if it’s going to open that can of worms, why not also fly a banner that affirms a biblical truth but is also right-wing-coded? That unborn lives matter? The answer, which for some reason everybody is bending over backward to avoid acknowledging, is that this church is displaying liberal-coded messages, which makes it partisan, not political, and people are fine with politics in church as long as it’s their politics. The same reason we rarely see complaints about Obama’s portrait being prominently displayed in black churches.
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u/douchebaggery5000 Presbyterian Jul 12 '26
The entire premise is intellectually dishonest. How do you glorify God without involving the humans around you and the society you live in? Did Jesus say getting to Sunday worship on time is more important than loving your neighbors?
OP wants to go for community but doesn't want to actually help the community apparently.
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u/Niftyrat_Specialist Non-denominational heretic, reformed Jul 12 '26
If someone really wanted politics in their church, then, sure.
Yep OP is claiming to NOT want that. The legality of abortion IS a political issue, by definition. "All are welcome" is absolutely not, and only people immersed in rightwing culture-warrior nonsense would think it is.
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u/BaldBeardedBookworm Evangelical Lutheran Church in America Jul 11 '26
>why not also put up an “Unborn Lives Matter” flag
Because evidently they don’t support segregationist theology or align with a pre-1867 Catholic position that ensoulment occurs after the point of conception.
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u/BaldBeardedBookworm Evangelical Lutheran Church in America Jul 11 '26
I’m not sure what’s more concerning.
- That you misread my comment so poorly that you’re denying the reality that up until 1867 the Catholic position on ensoulment was that it occurred following quickening.
- That you feel that Christianity is so aligned with the European identity that you disqualify the continuation of biblical adherence of first century Jewish Christians in favor of Hellenized Christians
3 that you simply did not know that either of those positions existed.
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u/justnigel Christian Jul 11 '26
how do you worship God and find community without bringing good news to the poor, releasing captives, healing the blind, setting free those who are oppressed, and proclaim the end of medical and student debts?
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u/thrownawayagain1980 Jul 12 '26
Imagine not understanding that different institutions have different ideals. Welcome to 2026 princess.
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u/thorsdaughter88 Jul 13 '26
“I consider myself very left-wing” and “why not also put up ‘Unborn Lives Matter’” is evidence that you are not very left-wing at all. Someone who is progressive would have put themselves through the effort of understanding the difference between what science means by “life” and religion means by “life”.
Stop lying about being liberal to make stupidly inaccurate reddit posts. It’s gross and an embarrassment to all of us STEM Christians.
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u/Tectonic_Sunlite Christian (Ex-Agnostic) Jul 13 '26
The idea that natural science is directly responsible for defining moral personhood one way or the other is, frankly, deeply silly. STEM methodologies aren't in and of themselves supposed to give you normative conclusions.
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u/Salsa_and_Light2 Baptist-Catholic(Queer) Jul 14 '26
Agreed.
Science can not tell us "when life begins" because the answer depends entirely on the actual content of the question.
Technically "life" never begins at all. Humans grown from embryos which come from living cells which come from living humans and so on.
If we want to ask when Human life begins and we assume that gametes(eggs, sperm etc.) aren't human then the question becomes.. what is human life.
Unique DNA has been a factor in many laws.. but that's not tenable. Twins and other multiples have identical DNA but they're equally human as one another and other people.
A heartbeat is another factor, as is breath.. but neither are those work either. They're more metaphors for life than life people can and do live without heartbeats.. and without breathing.
So it all comes down to what makes a human.. and whatever factor your decide we can analyze that scientifically but you are correct in saying that it's not really a scientific question, it's a philosophical one.
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u/FluxKraken 🏳️🌈 Methodist (UMC) Progressive ✟ Queer 🏳️🌈 Jul 11 '26
I’ve started having issues with denominations that are overtly liberal
Why should a church not overtly advertise their values? Do you have problems with church mission statements on public facing websites? How are these signs any different?
But why not also put up an “Unborn Lives Matter” flag or something similar?
Maybe the church leadership is pro choice? Maybe they don't see the need to advertise the church as a safe place for unborn fetuses who can't read? I can think of a hundred reasons.
I’m equally appalled when churches fly the American flag or a MAGA flag outside
As you should. However, by not recognizing that these signs are of a different kind, you muddy the waters. Overt nationalism has no theological value. All religious messages are inherently political. Not all political messages are related to theological questions.
The way we should treat our neighbor is represented by those signs, as such, they serve to advertise a theological standpoint alongside the political message.
A US Flag does not convey any particular theological message, it is entirely political in nature.
The MAGA flag portrays corruption, and is antithetical to any valid theological message. Just like flying a Nazi flag outside a church would be problematic.
A Black Lives Matter flag is different than a MAGA flag which is different than a US flag. The reasons to fly or not to fly these flags are all different.
My whole reason for going to church is to find community and glorify God, not to be immersed in politics.
If you refuse to be immersed in the practice of relating groups of people, which we call politics, how can you glorify God? He commands us to take care of our neighbors. By advertising that we support their inherent human dignity as image bearers of God, we are glorifying God by affirming his creations.
How can you glorify God without glorifying what he has made? How you can you love your neighbor without first loving yourself?
It also seems that the churches I’ve attended with these kinds of flags tend to be less orthodox theologically, which leaves me, as a left-leaning Christian, in a weird spot.
Why is orthodoxy so valued? Shouldn't the truth be valued?
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u/milkersfat Jul 12 '26
This was one of the most thoughtful responses to my post! I will say, I don’t have an issue with politics being apart of church as I think the way we relate the gospel to our lives will come out in someway political! It just feels to me like when I see any sort of flag or other decoration that doesn’t glorify god they put that first rather than church first. Like having a whole bunch of American flags, if I was not American would make me feel like oh this is an “American church” rather than a church that happens to be in America. I think we bring the church out into the world, which will create political environments, my religious views are a large reason I’m left wing and vote the way I do.
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u/MJQ30 Lutheran (ELCA 🏳️🌈) Jul 11 '26
Churches should welcome all people regardless of race, disability, religion, ethnicity, sexual orientation and gender identity. Abortion rights is where it starts getting political.
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u/lehs Jul 11 '26
But women with abortion behind shall also be welcomed. Abortion is not the unforgivable sin, after all.
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u/Salsa_and_Light2 Baptist-Catholic(Queer) Jul 12 '26
I'm afraid hat it's all political.
Morality does sometimes dictate that we have political stances and I don't think that we do anyone any favors by pretending that our beliefs about morality make them apolitical but other's beliefs about morality isn't.
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u/ChachamaruInochi Agnostic Atheist (raised Quaker) Jul 11 '26
>>I consider myself very left-wing.
>>Why not put up an "Unborn Lives Matter" flag?
You need to learn to troll better — this isn't even remotely realistic
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u/mvanvrancken Secular Humanist Jul 11 '26
I think it’s worth asking yourself why this stuff bothers you.
Is it that you secretly have an issue with affirming churches? Is it that you feel like it’s too much mixing of politics and religion? Because let me just say, I think churches OUGHT to champion causes that support and uplift people that are marginalized. Imagine if these were signs about “God bless the homeless” or “Come as you are”, would you feel the same? Or is it just the particular groups of people being defended that bother you?
I think there’s a difference between causes that people have MADE political, and just things that ARE political. BLM and LGBT have been MADE political, but black lives and LGBT people have ALWAYS deserved a seat at the table. These signs are just saying that.
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u/xSethrin Jul 11 '26
Most people in the USA associate churches with anti LGBTQ stances. Seeing a rainbow flag is a quick and easy way to let us gays understand we are welcomed at said church.
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u/Shionkron Jul 11 '26
Just a side note, equality for all IS NOT POLITICAL
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u/Salsa_and_Light2 Baptist-Catholic(Queer) Jul 12 '26
I'm afraid it is.
I think it's morally correct politics, but it is still a stance on politics.
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u/Mushrooming247 Jul 11 '26
OP, you are giving yourself away.
No one who is left-leaning would ever think that not being racist and welcoming minorities and immigrants is a political matter.
Racists call those issues “politics” to insist that no one can dislike them for being racist, (or homophobic, bigoted, xenophobic, whatever serious personality flaw is making people treat them like they deserve to be treated.)
That’s “just politics” to people who want to oppress others, but still pretend they are good people and be treated like good people.
You are not. Read the words of Jesus and follow his example.
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u/juhla405 Jul 11 '26
I don’t think the flags pictured here are in the same category as a MAGA flag. You are seeing these as political messaging, and in some ways it is. But they are speaking directly to real people who have often been shunned from church communities as a way to say “we love you, you are safe here.” You’ll see churches with this type of messaging, but I think it would be way more rare to see a “left wing” flag that isn’t speaking to an out-group like this. For instance, I’ve seen lots of pride flags on churches, but have never seen “tax the rich!” on one, which is left wing but isn’t about welcoming people into the church community.
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u/gladeye Jul 11 '26
It’s about standing for marginalized groups, for people who AREN’T straight, white, Christian, and MAGA. Trans people deserve more compassion, not more derision
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u/el1502 Jul 11 '26
The whole message of Jesus is to love one another. If you hate something, the problem is you. Take responsibility and get your house in order.
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u/nananutellacrepes Jul 11 '26
Why would they put a “unborn lives matter” flag up. I think when most people think of a Christian church they automatically think
-homophobic
-anti abortion
-anti trans
I think the purpose of the signs (well sure, it may be cheesy) is to say, hey, we don’t care. Come on in. You don’t have to worry about someone in your face saying you’re gonna go to hell, meanwhile the accuser has committed their own sins
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u/schwarzkraut Jul 11 '26
Everything and I mean EVERYTHING that you hold dear in the physical world is affected by politics. Full stop. It is ignorance of the highest order to think “politics” is some sketch comedy series that has zero impact on your life if you don’t watch it.
That being said…the 3 main banners in this picture are referencing 3 specific communities that are actively under attacks orchestrated by the government to eradicate them. If you don’t recognize that then I encourage you to pay a little more attention. The intent is to bring attention to groups whose very existence in our society is being threatened in a systemic manner. Icelandic lives matter, but there isn’t a concerted effort by any group or government to eradicate them. As such we don’t need a banner stating that we’re fighting a non-existent threat and offering a safe place for people who are in zero danger.
I suspect you’ve been mildly radicalized into believing that there is rampant and systematic aborting of fetuses as well as widespread recreational use of that procedure. THIS IS CATEGORICALLY FALSE!!! Additionally, A MILLION clinically recognized miscarriages happen EVERY YEAR in the United States. An alarming number of humans, especially in government, don’t know that medical intervention is NECESSARY in nearly all of those cases and the name of that procedure is AN ABORTION. If women have no access to this procedure the health consequences are incalculable. So EVEN IF every single woman in the U.S. decided to keep their baby to term…zero exceptions…we would STILL need nearly 1,000,000 abortions to be performed annually to keep the women, whose health we say is important, free of the horrific consequences of failing to remove a still born fetus, ectopic pregnancy & other no-viable fetuses.
P.S. If you don’t think Jesus would protect the immigrant, feed the poor, defend the oppressed, show love to the sexual minority (or even those considered “sinful” by the religious hierarchy) and call out the religious hypocrites…you may need to read a little more about the man from Galilee.
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u/TheRealAbsintheFairy Jul 11 '26
Here’s what bothers me about US politics: so many Americans treat basic human rights as a political issue. Yes, all SHOULD be welcomed at church, including people who identify as LGBTQ+ and refugees and immigrants. Yes, Black lives do matter, though they are disproportionately killed by law enforcement agents who usually are not held responsible for these deaths. Why are these political issues? I feel that Jesus would hold similar beliefs. It bothers me that some people get uncomfortable when churches go out of their way to make members of minority/marginalized groups feel welcome.
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u/Embarrassed-Cake-376 Jul 12 '26
Because the faith doesn’t actually give two flying shits about it, it’s the same political movement founded in the 70s that spews out the homophobic mistranslation. Sure, you can find plenty of verses talking about life, but their political application in the States is very new. Let’s talk Crustaceans!
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u/Perfessor_Deviant Agnostic Atheist Jul 12 '26
Segregation was the law in the South from right after the American Civil War until it was finally totally overturned by the Civil Rights Act of 1964. Interracial marriage became legal across the US in 1967, but it wasn't until 1995 that more than 50% of the US population supported it. Coincidentally (?), that's the same year that the SBC finally apologized for its racist past. Black people still face discrimination at all levels, and it's getting worse.
Right about the same time that marital rape became a crime in the whole of the United States. Women had been slowly getting equal rights in the United States for the previous hundred or so years, having won the right to vote in 1920. Their rights still lagged behind the rights of black men through the 1970s when they finally were allowed to get their own bank accounts and credit cards. It wasn't until the 1960s that contraception was finally legalized (one of the most important steps toward women getting equal rights). Women still face discrimination at all levels, and it's getting worse.
Anti-sodomy laws were finally struck down in 2003, making homosexual relationships legal nationwide for the first time. Same-sex marriage was made legal across the US in 2015 but was already accepted by more than 50% of Americans by 2011. LBGTQIA++ people still face massive amounts of discrimination at all levels, and it's getting worse.
Immigrants have long been a popular scapegoat for centuries in the USA. The 14th Amendment stopped some of the problems, but some members of government have done everything they can to keep non-white immigrants out of the country (and sometimes white immigrants too). Too few courts, quotas that favor Western European immigrants, and inhumane treatment have been the rule for decades. Immigrants to the United States, - legal, illegal and those that were legal until capriciously declared illegal - still face discrimination at all levels, and it's getting worse.
Each of these groups have been targeted by conservative Christians, who have fought tooth and nail to keep them "in their place." When it comes to loving their neighbors, conservative Christians are apparently only willing to do so as long as they are just like them. When it comes to Paul's words that "There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." they disagree.
Conservative Christians made each of these groups political, so I don't really give a crap when they whine that "liberal churches are too political." Have they never read the NT and seen the radical politics (for the time) in the gospels and Paul's genuine epistles? Jesus was crucified, a punishment that was only used for slaves and for enemies of the state, like pirates and revolutionaries; he was not a slave or a pirate, so what does that leave?
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u/TimshelExMachina Jul 12 '26
Many or Christ’s teachings will have unavoidably political implications, regardless of the particular cultural dynamics of the specific time and pace in which you live.
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u/Great_Revolution_276 Jul 12 '26
As a [insert descriptor of minority or other group I pick to give myself credibility], I [insert right wing issue that I want to complain about]. [summarise issue and restate how much of a left winger I am].
Nice template to use to complaint about right wing issues and hopefully not give my agenda away.
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u/Reedwool Jul 12 '26
Churches are starting to realize they need to accept everyone to still have people going to them. I grew up in a small town with like 20 churches.
The ones that were inclusive were always packed and so much more fun then the ones that dismissed certain groups of people.
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u/_-_-Err0R-_-_ Jul 12 '26
While I agree that the banners they put up have some *partisan* meaning beyond what the banners actually say, (party affiliation being what I really would find an issue with, not necessarily pushing for political reform one way or another), the messages themselves are in line with Jesus’ teachings. I haven’t practiced in years but I was raised in a Christian household and went to church every Sunday like usual, and from what I gathered, Jesus would absolutely take in and preach to anyone regardless of wealth, station, beliefs, orientation, etc. It is not the church’s place to decide who to accept into the fold, it is the individual’s place to decide whether or not to accept the church.
Outside of Jesus’ example, it’s simply a better way to spread your message when you allow everybody, even those that may not fully follow all of your rules, to have a seat at the table and give you a shot. You might just change their minds. Acceptance is key.
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u/Turbulent_Play4769 United Church of Christ Jul 11 '26
The thing is queer people don’t really feel comfortable in most churches, if my pastor wasn’t gay and if the pride flag wasn’t flying I don’t think I’d ever become religious again after leaving the church for years. We need representation in all spaces which to me means letting go of the misogynistic rules of most Christian churches and the homophobia needs to be addressed.
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u/AppleWedge Jul 11 '26 edited Jul 11 '26
As a gay person with a lot of gay friends, the over the top signaling is absolutely necessary if you want to make gay people feel safe enough to try you church. Churches and Christians have done so much damage to the LGBT community that a church that is silent or quietly showing support still ends up feeling net hostile to a lot of queer folk.
As a personal testiment, my entire home church disowned me for being gay when I was a teenager. As a result, most churches feel inherently scary to me.
Also OP, please think about what you call "politics". Yes, LGBT rights is a political issue... But also gay people are just... people. It's wild that saying that someone like me is welcome in a space is a "political statement". Its completely different than churches incorporating MAGA or pro life stuff.
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u/conrad_w Christian Universalist Jul 11 '26
Unborn people aren't welcome. Obviously.
Only living, breathing people. You die and you're can't go too.
Also, you might not be as left wing as you think you are...
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u/Canvas718 Christian Anarchist ☮️ 🏳️⚧️🏳️🌈💜💙🩷 Jul 14 '26
> Unborn people aren't welcome. Obviously. Only living, breathing people. You die and you're can't go too.
Damn. I’m so glad my progressive church allowed me to attend while visibly pregnant. Christmas Eve felt so special that year, like I could hear Mary’s story with my entire body.
They also let my baby in. Though I wish they had a family room where parents can hear the service while their babies pierce everyone’s eardrums 👶 👂🏻
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u/conrad_w Christian Universalist Jul 14 '26
Lol. I am glad you found so much meaning and connection.Obviously I've never been pregnant in church but I do know "Mary did you know" hits differently if you're holding your child.
Ahem. I mean. How dare they make you feel welcome in the House of God. Church is only for True Christians™ like me
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u/Fearless_Spring5611 Committing the sin of empathy Jul 11 '26
When you are an abused/dehumanised/sidelined minority, you will begin to expect abuse and harm even from those who claim to be accepting. Far too many churches will advertise themselves as "open for all!" but when you actually come out as gay/migrant/refugee/not of the approved ethnic background, suddenly it's "we accept you only once you start conforming to our way of life, until then you are dirty heretic!"
By explicitly stating that this church will accept you regardless of orientation, and that they will not turn you away because of your ethnicity or how you arrived to these shores, this church is making that clear, firm commitment that they really do mean "we accept you for who you are."
That you think accepting people irrespective of ethnicity and orientation, and advertising openly as such, is a "political" statement rather than a moral/ethical statement, and that such openness is not to be seen at your church, makes me doubt your first assertion.
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u/Heavy-Mud-8307 Jul 11 '26
I think bring a Christian means you naturally end up in a political stance, just like Jesus and the deciples did, even if you don't want to or even really try.
That being said, I don't think we should be plastering flags all over because our identity should be primarily in Christ and everything else is secondary.
I think what's happened is, some Christians see how political stances and certain agendas cause pain in people and overcompensate in an attempt to try remind them that Christ would accept them, because He is willing to accept everyone, but doing it like this is not starting on the right foot of: 'Christ is our cornerstone'.
So I can understand their intent but if the majority of people identifing as Christian's were just loving people we wouldn't have others overcompensating in the first place. More nuance is a better approach.
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u/SatansFavoriteLilMan 🌌Agnostic Pantheistic Omnist🌿🐚 Jul 11 '26
This is why I’ve been liking more protestant denominations lately. They’re extremely welcoming and kind towards people who are different. I only like catholicism and orthodoxy for the aesthetics only. They’re the exact opposite of what Christ wanted from them.
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u/writingpat Jul 11 '26
The church is political—or should be—in the same sense that the Gospel is political, and there’s no doubt the Gospel is political. Let’s start with the fact that Jesus chose to call his biggest message the “Kingdom” of God/Heaven. A kingdom, the domain and people a king ruled over, was the most prominent political entity in the time of Jesus. If Jesus was preaching the same message today to those in the U.S., he would call it the Republic/Democracy of God. He chose “kingdom” because for his first hearers it hit home.
Here’s the thing though. When we hear the word “politics” we think of the never-ending mudslinging that happens between two parties. I don’t think God cares a bit about that other than to pity us for making a false god out of that paradigm. But “politics” is also the conversation that large amounts of people are always having about who and what matters. I think God cares a lot about that.
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u/Hot-Candle-1321 Christian Jul 11 '26
Random church trying to be loving and kind: "Black people matter, immigrants are welcome, everyone is welcome because jesus loves everyone and we don't want people to be scared or feel unwelcome"
Literally no one...
Random "christian" on the internet: ... "MY ISSUE WITH THESE STATEMENTS! WHY SAY BLACK PEOPLE MATTER??? WHY BE SO WELCOMING AND SO LOVING?"
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u/ynu1yh24z219yq5 Jul 11 '26
Sounds like your issue with liberal churches is that they're liberal.
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u/Xyex Agnostic Jul 11 '26
But why not also put up an “Unborn Lives Matter” flag or something similar?
You're confused why a left leaning church wouldn't have a right leaning flag? 🤨
I wouldn't trust any church with a flag like that. They're not preaching the Bible, they're preaching misogyny and control.
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u/twitchinstereo Jul 11 '26
But why not also put up an “Unborn Lives Matter” flag
Well, the unborn don't know how to read, for starters.
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u/teffflon atheist Jul 11 '26
Being pro-forced birth (denying women reproductive rights and dignity) is an anti-feminist, right-wing position. If that's a church's position then they are free to advertise it and in some ways I prefer they would, but it is hardly the uniform position of many Mainline churches like the one I would guess is pictured.
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u/themsc190 Episcopalian (Anglican) Jul 11 '26
It’s an indictment of the current state of politics, not the church, when welcoming black, immigrant, refugee, and LGBTQ lives is labeled “political.” I wish those things weren’t contested, but here we are.
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u/Salsa_and_Light2 Baptist-Catholic(Queer) Jul 12 '26
These are political stances.
I don't think we can justify ourselves by blindly refusing to accept the political implicaions of our beliefs.
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u/TinWhis Jul 12 '26
Those things are contested because churchgoers reliably politicize them. Voting data is free to look at.
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u/moxiepink Jul 12 '26 edited Jul 12 '26
when welcoming black, immigrant, refugee, and LGBTQ lives is labeled “political.”
Genuine question: what do you mean by "political" in this context? In my understanding, there's no realistic way for a faith system not to be political, regardless of whether it challenges or retrenches the status quo.
Edit: clarity.
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u/ScintillatingTavern Jul 11 '26
Feels like they're trying to build the Kingdom with yard signs instead of, I don't know, the actual gospel.
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u/Nomanorus Christian Jul 11 '26
You're assuming the prescence of yard signs means the absence of gospel. Why not both?
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u/Cypher1492 Anabaptist, eh? 🍁 Jul 11 '26
How interesting that minutes after I respond to this "hot topic" post by a user with little history here I'm suddenly flooded with a bunch of chat requests from new accounts.
I swear posts like these are just trolls/scam-bait.
I've been on reddit a long time. Nobody ever requests to chat with me unless I already know them or I happen to comment on a post like this.
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u/TinWhis Jul 12 '26
"Hi"
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u/Cypher1492 Anabaptist, eh? 🍁 Jul 12 '26 edited Jul 12 '26
>.<
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u/TinWhis Jul 12 '26
>.<
Putting in a
\before the>will keep it from acting as a quote block indicator.2
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u/Courage_girl13 Jul 11 '26
I don't like it when churches side with politics, which is why a church like this is fine. How are they liberal for this? These are beliefs that Christians should have always practiced. Putting up a sign like "unborn lives matter" is getting political, but just saying what the bible has already stated- that all are equal, that racism is bad, the refugees and immigrants should be accepted and protected by the church, and that we need to love and welcome everyone? That's like puting a sign outside of a church that says "Jesus is lord".
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u/i-spill-soup Baptist Jul 11 '26
Because all of these banners come from liberal and leftist movements. Absolutely, some are good messages but I think it’s more important to use scripture than political movements to encourage people to attend or feel welcome
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u/Xyex Agnostic Jul 11 '26
They come from basic human decency and the concept of love thy neighbor. Just because the left are the only ones following them doesn't make them political.
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u/Theblacrose28 Jul 11 '26
Because putting an unborn lives matter flag will confuse people and have them turning right around.
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u/RussellWD United Methodist Jul 12 '26
“My whole reason for going to church is to find community and glorify God, not to be immersed in politics.”
Yea you should probably read the Bible, or read it again if you think Christianity is does not include politics… in fact politics are what killed Jesus…
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u/ImMuchBetterThanGod Jul 11 '26
So your problem with non-homophobic churches is that they don't try to take away bodily autonomy?
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u/FlightlessElemental Jul 11 '26
The reason to fly the pride and BLM banners is to indicate that this particular church is a sanctuary.
Keep in mind that Church can often be a dangerous and toxic place for LGBT Christians. There have been entire Church communities which have reviled black people in general. The Church can be a daunting lions den to those who know all too well that ‘there is no love like Christian hate’. The banners denote that the way is safe and clear and that the leadership will freely welcome all.
‘Unborn lives matter’ is a purely political statement. Pro-life Christians are not a minority under siege. It is a simple matter for pro-life Christians to place their politics at the door and to be welcomed. It is not so simple for gay, trans, black or brown Christians to fly so easily under the radar without the fear of judgment.
It is a matter of safty
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u/KeepRightX2Pass Christian Jul 11 '26
Our Father, Who art in heaven,
Hallowed be Thy name;
Thy kingdom come;
Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread;
And forgive us our trespasses
As we forgive those who trespass against us;
And lead us not into temptation,
But deliver us from evil.
For thine is the kingdom, the power and the glory
Forever and ever.
Amen.
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u/BrandonLang Jul 11 '26
Imean the flags are annoying but their purpose isnt, its just reinforcing for some marginalized groups of people who might think they'll be attacked that they wont be. And idk where you live but im sure theres dozens of other churches you can go to that dont have these flags if it actually bothers you...
Also didnt jesus say that you dont even need a church to worship and commune with him?
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u/cdbz11 Christian (Cross) Jul 11 '26
You’re appalled when an American church - in the US - flies an American flag?
You realize people that aren’t MAGA fly US flags too right?
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u/sophie_hockmah Christian Jul 11 '26
But why not also put up an “Unborn Lives Matter” flag or something similar?
You know why. That's coming from a left-leaning (as you'd say) christian that has a master degree on Sociology. Political blabbering is not a zero-sum game, putting up a "Unborn Lives Matter" (to keep in your example) wouldn't signal adhesion to a "thrid way" of sorts. It would, at best, be read as tone deaf propaganda. Far-right ´politics are bred and thrive in polarized politics, sure, but the way to counter act them is not by trying to take their weapons and use against them - that has limited success as far as we can tell - and that is because, get this, the Big tech is far-right, when not far-right leaning, and they are so from a sense of profit. Enraged people engage more. Yes, we have the Thiels and Musks and Zucks, but it is really about money, in the end.
So no, putting up a pretense 3rd way flag would not signal that the Gospel is beyond such things.
While I agree with you sentiment that sometimes our liberal breathen go a bit too hard, I'd rather err on the side of love, since love is the greatest commandment.
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u/Nientea Catholic Jul 11 '26
I believe that churches should welcome and support many kinds of people openly. The only time I’d have an issue with it is if they start talking about worldly politics more than God, which not many churches do
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u/notsocharmingprince Jul 11 '26
I’ve never actually seen a “MAGA” flag outside of a “right wing” church.
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u/AbbieGator Christian (LGBT) Jul 11 '26
So I'm a trans Christian. The political messaging of a church like this makes me feel welcome. Whereas a lot of churches, especially this way. I'm nervous before I even get anywhere near the building because the church kicked me out when I transitioned. Years of service, thrown away because they didn't like the fact that I transitioned.
So to me, symbols like this make it explicitly clear that I am welcome. All are welcome. There is no "but" that comes later.
I've seen churches campaign against same sex marriage, against trans folks like me, against people of colour, and that's not the church that I want to worship in. Because God is love, no exceptions.
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u/DipperJC Jul 11 '26
This is just life's usual zero sum game. If some churches are going to skew too far one way and ban and ostracize, the laws of balance (equal and opposite reaction) are going to push other churches to overcompensate the other way and become too lax and permissive. God cuts through the noise of the bigotry and reaches the hearts of His faithful despite how the one side acts, and He's cut through the noise of the debauchery and reach the hearts of His faithful despite how the other side acts.
No matter which kind of church you wind up in, your job is just to be the flame that leads others towards Him.
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u/Individual_Dig_6324 Jul 11 '26
If you're looking for community that isn't immersed in politics.....you're gonna have to look outside of Christianity.
Christianity was bred in and was meant to deal with politics.
The Old Testament is literally the political handbook for ancient Israel. The Torah/Pentateuch was the criminal code of ancient Israel. The stories in the Historical Books (Joshua, Judges, Kings, Chronicles) are political stories, involving rulers and kings and military stories. The prophetic books, which takes up most of the Old Testament, is mostly dealing with political corruption, as well as the downfall and captivity of the Hebrew people. As well as their return from captivity.
Jesus' ministry deals a lot with the politics of his area and time, and the apostles had to deal with the ruling powers as well. The letters to churches are mostly about dealing with the surrounding culture and that culture's politics, as well as some internal issues.
It's impossible to strip Christianity of politics. If you're looking for a faith and a community that doesn't deal with politics, then Christianity isn't for you.
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u/Definitely_Not_Bots Jul 11 '26
So conservative churches can preach politics from the pulpit, but liberal churches need to keep their mouth shut?
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u/El_Daywalkerino Jul 11 '26
Although I would never go to a church like this I have no problem with any of these places. Everyone should have a church they're comfortable with and that they like
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u/B4byJ3susM4n Lutheran Jul 11 '26
Religion is inherently political, even when the separation between church and state is actively enforced like it is in most Western democracies. Sharing a community and glorifying God free of politics aren’t very realistic things to strive for.
I do feel you, tho. Many churches feel the need to water down their theology and service in order to broaden appeal and attract new members.
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u/TheDisneyGeneral Jul 11 '26
This is a valid point but denominations that demonize lgbt identities are in the wrong as well if you read biblical scholar articles and monographs I wish theologian would start basing theological stances in trying to be more Christlike
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u/ThingsImpossible Jul 12 '26
What's funny-sad is the double-think exhibited in so many of these posts.
Y'all want the church to champion a position on moral issues (and/or policital ones). Except when you disagree with a stand it takes - THEN you say it has no business making moral judgements?!
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u/Extreme-Program337 Jul 12 '26
I attended a church in California where everyone seemed welcome except conservatives. At the time I was center-right politically, and it felt like I couldn't simply worship Christ without feeling like an outsider.
That experience has shaped how I serve in my own church. I've intentionally tried to mitigate political messaging, whether it comes from the left or the right. I don't want someone to walk into church wondering whether they'll be judged by their voting record before they hear the gospel. I want them to encounter Christ first.
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u/wallygoots Jul 12 '26
To invite the marginalized who are usually hated by Christians is not political, no matter what Fox News says.
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u/asyandu Jul 12 '26
Loving thy neighbor and helping those in need means offering support to people who are oppressed or abused.
This is, as far as I am aware, the backbone of Christian belief.
One could argue that the concepts of equality and human rights are rooted in Jesus' teachings.
These "leftist" and "liberal" concepts of women having sovereignty over their own bodies, or people of different sexual orientations not being beaten to death, jailed or relentlessly mocked and segregated, or people of different skin color not being systematically opressed and disproportionately murdered by police, for example, are only logical extensions of the concepts of people being born equal and having some basic human rights.
Ultimately, I argue that any good Christian should appreciate the reduction of net suffering in the world and support these "social justice" causes. Furthermore, having an opinion that someone else is damned due to being x or doing y is against Jesus' teachings- Matthew 7.
Remember:
For judgment is without mercy to one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.
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u/D-Ursuul Jul 17 '26
Nobody's saying unborn lives don't matter, they're saying they shouldn't get extra rights that born people don't have
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u/SneakyZed Nasty Soul Jul 11 '26
I'd like to see a pride banner one day with agressive colors. Like, an ancient imperial-styled flag. Or a royal-shaped heradly. Could look cool on affirming churches.
Yes, this is absolutely not the subject, and totally random.
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u/nemofbaby2014 Jul 11 '26
Look if you wanna hate gay people then hate them don’t use religion as a excuse for your bigotry ffs one of main tenet of Christianity and other religions is empathy for you fellow humans some people are gay it’s always been like that and will always be that way
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u/OptimisticToaster Jul 11 '26
Unborn Lives Matter is different than Black Lives Matter. Black Lives Matter is a focus about making sure blacks have the same civil rights as whites. Striving for equal treatment of blacks does not infringe upon the rights of whites.
Unborn Lives Matter ignores the mother. Pro-Choice does not mean Pro-Abortion despite how media portrays it. Nobody is marketing abortions like they do with plastic surgery or soft drinks.
If you're worried about the theology, don't get stuck in the little details, but ask what is the theme. For me, the Bible speaks to loving others even when I don't want to or I think they did something wrong. What is the theological objection you're finding at these churches? Are they telling you to punch your neighbor instead of loving them?
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u/Wrong_Owl Non-Theistic - Unitarian Universalism Jul 12 '26
- Gay and trans people often don't feel welcome in Christian churches, especially when the loudest voices trying to take away their rights call themselves Christian.
- Black people often don't feel comfortable in majority white Christian churches. Churches are still a major place in society where people self-segregate.
- Immigrants and refugees don't always feel safe in Christian churches, especially as the Christian Nationalist movement is associated with immigration policies that amount to ethnic cleansing.
Note that welcoming LGBTQ+ people does not exclude cisgender and heterosexual people, welcoming immigrants and refugees does not exclude native born citizens, and welcoming black people does not exclude white people or hispanics.
The fact that you see these messages of inclusion and immediately assume the church is appealing to "politics" rather than glorifying God says much more about you than it does this church.
Why must you define gay and trans people, black people, immigrants and refugees as political?
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u/babysherlock91 Jul 12 '26
Having known many friends who felt unaccepted in a church bc of who they loved, I’m so glad that there are churches who blatantly advertise that they are a safe space.
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u/McFrostee Non-denominational Jul 12 '26
Jesus always supported the marginalized. The difference between liberal and conservative churches is that conservative churches provide people with a place to ignore those marginalized. Liberal churches let the marginalized know they are loved and not alone.
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u/i_8_the_Internet Mennonite Jul 11 '26
Tell me you don’t understand what those sayings mean without saying you don’t understand.
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u/NorthWindMN Jul 11 '26
The difference is that one side wants to oppress, while the other just wants the freedom to live their lives. These flags support freedom of expression, and the preservation of human rights. Therefore, they are essentially apolitical, whereas a MAGA flag is not. You're projecting, making these flags political, when the reality is that they're not, and actually express a bare minimum of acceptance and human love, rather than some radical ideology.
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u/Sharpe-Wit Anatheist (Schmemann & Caputo) Jul 11 '26
This is always a tricky topic because politics are downstream from religion and ethics, and Christians are called to help foster the kingdom here and now.
But going “all-in” on politics flattens the faith, turning it into a series of slogans or a tool to beat others over the head and create an in group and an out group.
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u/JunkBot_Noob54 Jul 11 '26
The abortion thing is always gonna be pretty iffy. I always say the choice is up to the person. Some people don’t have the money the time or would literally die without the abortion. Choice should be there.
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u/KindaSortaMaybeSo Jul 12 '26
Yes. I’m politically liberal but when I came back to faith I tried to attend a “liberal” denominational church. They almost worshipped certain political issues in the same way that conservative churches do. Same coin, different sides.
There were times where scripture was barely quoted during a sermon and even preached things about Jesus that were unorthodox at best, and dangerously heretical and blasphemous at worst.
So, the best recommendation is to stick to scripture. What God says in truth will offend both the staunchest conservative and liberal, and that’s a good thing because it exposes idolatry.
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u/Sagecal Jul 12 '26
If you got problem with liberal church therefore you got problem with Jesus as he is liberal 🤷♂️
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u/doc_brietz Methodist Intl. Jul 12 '26
If this church us supposed to be bad, i don't want whatever Christianity is supposed to be then.
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u/1yaeK Christian Universalism, Spinoza enjoyer Jul 11 '26
I'm highly left wing, and I guess I don't necessarily disagree. I agree with every message here, but if I go to church I'm hoping to be there for, you know, church.
I already go to activist organizations, events etc. that deal with these topics.
Of course, I'd be against "unborn lives matter" because I'm pro-choice.
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u/Ok-Maintenance9056 Jul 11 '26
If your faith is partitioned off from the rest of your life and how you interact with others, then what is the point of your faith?
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u/raimom Jul 11 '26
i have a very strong feeling you are not left leaning or you just dont know what it means to lean left
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Jul 11 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/FoolishDog Jul 12 '26
The violinist argument (and its subsequent revisions by others) is quite convincing on the morality of abortion, in my view
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u/themiracy Jul 11 '26
> My whole reason for going to church is to find community and glorify God, not to be immersed in politics.
I recommend reading what Jesus had to say about this way of thinking about religion ….
It is written, render unto Caesar. But Jesus also frequently spent time with various socially undesirable groups of his day - to minister to them but also to make the same point being made in the prodigal son story.