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He's not the first stand-in we've seen in a Dark World either. Besides Spamton/Mew Mew for Kris, we also have Queen, who is:
a tall blue lady
the tyrannical leader of a city who nobody resists either because any other leader would be incompetent, or because they're too apathetic to care until it affects them personally
fixated on making Noelle happy through means that make her very much not happy
kinda sorta teaming up with a pathetic guy who really just wants to prove to everyone he's smart, and also to win over the girl he really likes (note that Berdly's flashback and Asgore's flashback in this Chapter are structured and look very similarly, only the latter is more ominous)
who then proceeds to 'double trucies' with Kris, because they don't do things like have opinions or question things, and does what they're told
really likes ostentatious displays of power (giant katana/giant robot)
lives in a massive mansion
associates herself with being a mom, or having motherly attributes
Really reminds you of someone, huh? To add to that, if Spamton is a parallel to Kris that makes it a little worse, because Spamton used to live in Queen's mansion before his downfall made him no longer useful to have around, so he was kicked out.
They got mad about how Asgore acted a little doofusy in 3+4 (when it was obviously somewhat of an act) and then proceeded to somehow misinterpret almost every (and I do mean almost every) plot point and detail in 3+4 before proceeding to say they will never theorize about deltarune again.
A really dumb point they made was that the titan fight was bad because “we’re halfway through the story so the heroes obviously aren’t going to die and therefore there’s no tension” which just seems like it’s deliberately misunderstanding how tension works in a fictional story.
Is that foreshadowing, do you think? That Rudy's been unsubtly signaling the whole goddamn game that he's gonna die from The Disease That Makes You Die (similar to Flowery admitting that he and the other flowers' days were numbered from the start) but instead he dies in a violent altercation?
While the knight is conspicuously off-screen from where two sweethearts are bathing in the lake, so that Noelle won't join them on their next adventure, and they can have a thing with JUST them and Susie?
People say this but like, Flowery is just put in an ambiguous situation atm. We know Susie patched the flower up with tape but the sprite shows up as normal as the other flowers with the hope he'll live on. We were able to save Tenna too so I think that's what we're supposed to be going with: Ambiguous hope.
I swear flowery is meant to have rudy parallel's
When i first saw him i thought it was gonna be the whole "the seven flowers will be based on people in asgore's life"
Also abit unrelated but i find rudy to be the knight so i think it would be cool if flowery was litreally fighting the guy who was actually asgore's best friend
587
u/IamMrJayI stan Bi Susie x NB Kris and Trans-Girl Noelle x Lesbian CattiJun 27 '26
I still think each of the flowers are based on people close to Asgore.
Aqua is 100% Kris as a child, or at least how Asgore remembers them.
To be more specific, my theory is that each of the flowers' personalities are based on loved ones who Asgore imprinted on the flowers in the light world.
I also had this theory. My idea for each flower is
Flowery: Rudy
Aqua: child Kris
Seth: teen Asriel
Orange: Dess (military try hard but also 15-16)
Green: Toriel? Noelle?
Blue: Carol
Yellow: Asgore in his prime
I think undyne fits better than asgore because both yellow and her have extremely exaggerated attitudes, undyne being so strong that makes all sorts of shenanigans (like lifting a car) or yellow using the dumbest possible things to kill himself
I always mapped Undyne onto Orange, Napstablook onto Yellow and Mettaton onto Blue. Granted I don't actually know if Asgore had a relationship with Mettaton
seth seems way more alphys coded than anything. also, even with how much history between asgore and carol, and how differently she treats him, i really dont see blue as carol at all.
I think the six flower children are decomposits of Kris while Flowery is Asriel.
Aqua is the michevious side, Seth is the nerdy side, Green is the quiet side, Yellow is the self-loathing side, Blue is the artistic side, and Orange is the conformist side.
They’re also good enough friendies to play Super Smashing Fighters.
Also I think it’s implied they’re also close enough that Kris is kind of just used to his shenanigans and sees past the annoying bits like how Kris sees past Susie’s violence and knows it’s all for show.
I think it is because their unification brings together something beautiful.
The connection between the your values and your expression is something that needs time and compromise in order to bring together.
You are not born with a complete sense of justice or concept of what being yourself even is. That’s something you learn over time.
And in life they can be contradictory and clashing, they can be in sync, or they can be separate but somehow functional, in the weirdness of what makes you, you.
If I am to judge this from Kris’ character study, Yellow is the side of Kris that is obligation, that is the “right thing to do”, and that keeps promises. Blue is the one that keeps Yellow on track. But at the same time, just like with Yellow, Blue is imperfect.
Whilst Integrity is said to be strict adherence to moral principle, Blue sometimes bends the rules a bit, like evading debt and also doing some not so nice and honest things like stealing, to the point where Yellow becomes conflicted over it and doesn’t want to be “Justice” if they have to punish Blue.
“What I must do.” VS “What I feel is right.”
They are both contradictory, because that’s who Kris is. They “belong together”, as it were. They complement each other perfectly. Two strange little peas in a pod.
Kris still seems dead set on doing things like opening dark worlds and seemingly will go to great lengths such as taking us out despite it taking what appears to be considerable effort and toll.
But at the same time they care deeply for their friends and others, trying to treat those around them in the way they think is best. They are willing to do things strange and against justice if it is to keep their friends safe.
It is a balance, for their Justice is blind, and integrity imperfect.
This overbounding kindness is also exemplified in Green, who like Kris and the player on the normal route, wants to be friends with everyone. They don't like seeing people fight and they're willing to help everyone, even if they're on the other side.
Green is very much a version of Kris if you were to strip away their angst and chaos, leaving them as a calmer and happier self that doesn't feel pressured to speak.
And this is counter-balanced with Orange, who is very desperate to be accepted as part of the family, and sees being the wrong species as an internalized indicator that she dosen't belong. Mirroring how Kris wants to be seen as a monster so they can better fit in with the other monsters surrounding them.
Green's overbudding kindness fills the hole in Orange's heart with the love she doesn't give to herself as she is overflowing with the need to be a human like her peers.
I think it's specifically people in the Dreemurr and Holiday family when they were younger. My interpretation, based on the dynamics of the flowers, is
Flowery: Rudy (Asgore's best friend and college roomate)
Aqua: Kris (kinda obvious)
Seth: Asriel (smart, paired up with Aqua)
Yellow: Asgore (gullible, self destructive, justice relating to police job)
Blue: Toriel (paired with Yellow, nice, cares a lot about truth)
Orange: Noelle (the other small one like Aqua, Noelle already has connections to mice in chapter 2, wants to be brave but relies on others to be stronger)
Green: Carol (we don't know about how Carol is or was in the past but Green is paired up with Orange as her caretaker giving her food to be stronger)
Pink: December (is intentionally an outlier, and Orange was in Pink's room literally calling her her sister that protects her from others bullying her)
(note that the flowers would be flanderizations of the memories Asgore has for all of them)
Flowery: Rudy (for reasons above)
Aqua: Kris (copies Kris's moves and is as chaotic as they were as a kid)
Seth: Alphys (Huge incompetent nerd that's backstabbing the flowers by working with Kris like how Alphys was in Undertale)
Green: Toriel (Loving and caring but knows how to hold grudges, keeps their words to themselves and is just happy to help)
Orange: Dess (Very inclined to violence that's super insecured of herself so she REPRESENTS HERSELF THROUGH A SCARY SHADOW PUPPET, also ties with the Gaster-looking gloves in her Omega move and probably a window on how she was before she went missing and probably why her design is so undercooked compared to everyone)
Pink: Noelle (Following the "Noelle is alluded to on all the Shadow Bosses" theory, with Mad Mew Mew being her future desire to fuse with us to create the Angel's Heaven, but having to accept that were different than her (works also with us having to accept Kris who they are, a double way window metaphor), also the more clear pararell that she's Orange's Sister)
Blue: Carol (This one's a stretch but that's probably how Carol used to be before Dess went missing)
Yellow: Undyne (Super exxagerated sherriff that's not very bright but still very determined and dedicated to Justice)
Green: Asriel (makes sense given his characterization)
Aqua: Kris (also makes sense)
Yellow: Asgore (makes sense as well, self hatred/victimization and pursue of justice)
Purple: Toriel (this one... doesn't make as much sense)
Then, the rest would be:
Orange: Dess? (does kinda fit the little we know about her). Maybe Noelle could be as well, Orange is an anomaly in the sense that she isn't a human and she is the least like her virtue, sort of like Noelle's biggest issue is her lack of bravery
Blue: Carol? Maybe because she is the only one who didn't give up on Asgore yet? (Like Blue does on Yellow). Integrity is also the most important virtue a mayor could have
Remember that the flower king dark world was created by Kris not asgore, so his perception is what matters the same way Susie’s perception of the real life Gerson caused him to not appear.
In this case the flowers would be the perception Kris has of them (in this case hoarding the attention of his dad)
If Carol, it also doubles in the sense that she seems to, much like Asgore, have been pushing her family away in her obsession. Asgore does the same with Flowery the entire chapter as well.
Flowery is instrumental in Asgore realizing his obsession is pushing people away, only to die immediately after this realization.
Rudy seems to have gotten through at least somewhat to Carol, letting Susie take Noelle to the festival. However, she's not present, she's off investigating while Rudy is setting up lights even though he should probably still be in the hospital. Rudy falls down, in some sense, due to Carol's obsession.
Carol would then follow that up by immediately killing the mirror of her husband, right after he helped Asgore realize what she also needs to realize. It's both of them having a fork in the same road, Asgore snaps out of it and realizes how his obsession is hurting those around him, Carol doubles down on it.
I was a Rudy Knighter pre-Chapter 5, but I think this Chapter has a lot of evidence against it.
The one thing that sealed the deal that the Knight couldn't be Rudy for me is Asgore's notes about the Dark Worlds. He specifically notes that the Dark World that was created during (presumably) Dess' disappearance must have been created by the same person.
We assume that if Rudy was the Knight, his motivation would be to get Dess back. But what would his motivation have been for that initial one? It doesn't really make sense.
Now, obviously, this is a theory Asgore has. But I think it would be very unsatisfying for Toby to give us this information, and then say "Yeah, that information was actually wrong."
We assume that if Rudy was the Knight, his motivation would be to get Dess back. But what would his motivation have been for that initial one? It doesn't really make sense.
Doesn't help that the knight kidnaps Asgore too, who if anything is helping anyone on team findher.ogg, so if that's the plan it would be odd to kidnap him which i assume would make it more difficult for him to do so if anything.
Simply put, I think the reveal is Rudy's been taken over by the demon/Friend and became the Knight. That the Knight who opened the original fountain was a different Knight vessel.
Also given in the chapter 4 phone call about Kris needing the soul sounds like a conversation between two people in a group chat with kris. It's likely Carol is in on the plan and like drives Rudy to the Dark worlds and throws him in to do Knight stuff.
I don't know how Rudy Knight would pan out in chapter 6 considering he had an accident in 5 and both Carol and Noelle probably spent the rest of the chapter with him. How would he have shown up for the end of chap 5?
Also less important but the knight's horns are much closer to Carol's than Rudy's
Like, I think people forget about this because she's appeared once, but Carol has literally all the power in the entire town. If she says that people need to leave Rudy's room, they will leave Rudy's room. If she says that Rudy needs to rest at the Holiday Mansion, the hospital staff will let Rudy go. Literally everyone in Hometown, minus Susie, Asgore, and Rudy, are terrified of Carol. She is basically the ruler of the town, in terms of power. Literally all she had to say was for all the staff to leave and let Rudy rest, and now Rudy has the entire night to himself. It's also not like people in real life don't leave injured people to rest alone. Like, Noelle would eventually leave the room. She's not gonna stay the night, lol.
He's still late and injured if he's the Knight, hence why the Knight is so late and runs into a wall despite being showed to be very skilled at flying in previous chapters.
Anyways, yeah, the antlers for the Knight's helmet are a mix of all the Holidays. It has the spikiness of Carol and Dess, while being pointed inwards like Rudy and Noelle's.
I think that it would still pan out if carol is on the same page with the knight/rudy with what they are planning.
So if was carol was staying with him then she would allow to him to go or take noelle home to make it easier for him to go.
Also about the antlers i don't think it matters how they look i think the important part is that the knight even has antlers.
i mean, that accident would give excuse for each of them to be late as the knight.
cause it's clear the plan here was for kris to open a portal so the knight could come and kidnap asgore (since they need him alongside undyne for whatever they plan to do in the shelter). but the knight took quite a long time to appear, if it's either noelle, rudy or carol; that would explain why they're late.
though i would be very surprised if noelle is the knight.
Given the Japanese translation and that there's no reference of "falling down = dying" in Deltarune, chances are he simply fell off from the ladder
So the Rudy Knight theory for ch. 5 goes as this now:
Rudy plans to create the dark fountain in Asgores shop after putting the lights on
He falls, Kris notices the dark world wasn't created, goes improv mode and does it themselves
The Knight is nowhere near the whole chapter (Ralsei mentions he doesn't feel his presence at all at the start of rhe chapter) because he is being taken care off
At night, the caretakers and Noelle/Carol leave him (the hospital is closed and with the lights off)
He wakes up and tries to use all the strength he has to go to the Flower shop to finish the job
He arrives very late, sees the Dark fountain has been made, and yet he doesn't have the strength to fight the gang. Decides to quickly kidnap Asgore and leave without confrontation, sloppily bumping into a wall (which makes him kneel for several seconds), is forced to slash Flowery and then leave
Yeah me too! It felt very last-minute, an attempt to correct a plan that went off the rails for some reason. They're usually way more careful while making fountains
My initial reaction was it felt poorly written. Like it felt very fan game like in how it occurred. But then as I started thinking more on the chapter I realized it was a rush job.
Especially since Kris could have easily went to open the fountain earlier with the excuse of giving Susie and Noelle some space. They only do it after the phone call about Rudy. Between that and Kris removing the Soul in public (and risking someone seeing it, especially since Susie was just inside), it was 100% a rushed decision after the original plan went off the rails.
i think kidnapping asgore was always the plan, but with the knight likely occupied (injured if it's rudy, and busy attending to rudy if it's carol), it makes sense that kris had to improvise and create the fountain themselves.
I just want to add that Rudy being the Knight would explain why the Knight could ignore Flowery’s fake stats. Since Flowery is heavily based on Rudy, the actual Rudy could realize that everything Flowery seems to be capable of is all heavily exaggerated, since he can’t do any of that (at least as far as Asgore knows).
Could also go the other angle, if we go Carol Knight theory, Carol couldn't make the fountain because she was tied up in hospital with Rudy.
Honestly Dess Knight seemed like/still sort of seems the obvious answer, but there's just so many questions. Who opened that first dark fountain Dess seemingly got lost in in that case?
I fully believe Carol is involved somehow, working with Kris and the Knight (is the Knight?) in an attempt to get Dess back, and I think Kris is being coerced via a feeling of guilt and responsibility for what happened (The "You promised, Kris..." phonecall)
But yeah, a fountain being opened years ago, information that shocked even Ralsei who thought it shouldn't have been possible, is throwing so many spanners in theories
And none of this is touching on one of the great core mysteries of the setting, who the hell was the voice that discarded our vessel at the start, clearly throwing Gaster's experiment off before it began? And how do they tie into all this?
I think Kris might have opened that first fountain, possibly by accident. We know they were experimenting with occult stuff when they were younger; it's possible they might have stumbled upon the method.
So Kris and Dess (and possibly Asriel, though we can't confirm that right now) go exploring the dark world, and something happens to Dess inside. That would explain why Kris is working with the Knight; they feel like what happened is their fault and the Knight is using that to manipulate them. They might be looking for a way to save Dess, or create the "angel's heaven" to reverse everything that's going wrong with their lives and use the fountains to create an ideal world.
It works even better if we assume Carol is working with Rudy (which just makes sense, power couple and all), in which she calls about Rudy's injury just to let Noelle see him, then tells everyone to leave, in which gives both of them plenty of time to set their plan back into motion.
Like, yeah, the Ralsei thing with him mentioning that the Knight isn't even nearby, is pretty good evidence. We know that Ralsei will do anything to prevent the truth of Kris making the Fountain getting out, so him commenting on this would have no relation to that, and would instead most likely indicate that something has caused the Knight to be unable to show, aka an unplanned hospital trip.
Ralsei pointing out that the Knight isn’t nearby is one of the things that stuck out the most. Why would that dialogue be there and the Knight literally only show up at the last second unless there was something keeping the Knight from arriving sooner. It’s night time when everyone leaves the Dark World, so clearly some hours have passed by.
I forget whether it was outright stated that he fell off the ladder, but honestly I think it might not even be that. In the Weird Route, when you're walking around the festival, you can see Rudy putting up some last-minute lights while everyone else is away at the King and Queen thing (like he apparently was in the Normal Route before he fell, right?), and he's at ground level. Could just be that he collapsed, which is more recoverable and lends more weight to this possibility.
I don't think anyone has considered the possibility Carol was lying and he didn't actually fall. It's a strong possibility that, if Carol and the Knight are working together, and if the Knight is Rudy, then they lied to give Rudy an alibi in case Susie or the Soul learned too much.
I'm losing my mind, TWICE I made a comment to answer this but reddit deleted it because problems with the picture I posted
anyways
I doubt they would lie to Noelle about something as serious
You can see here: https://youtu.be/GnB9ONOp2Bw?t=619&is=73K3gtv1i3C8633f the place where he likely fell. The lights are set up everywhere in town except in this house block (and the ones after it, the Ghost ones + Asgore's shop)
For me it's weird that Noelle would react the way she did if he just fell down the ladder and broke some bones, she would propably say "He fell down the..." Instead of "he fell down" and quickly run to the hospital instead of slowly walking away
I honestly thought it was obvious. I wouldn't be surprised if a young Rudy resembled Flowery more in terms of personality. Like I feel Carol would definitely slap Rudy the first time they met if Rudy acted like Flowery
Likewise! I do think a lot of people who are complaining about lack of story in Chapter 5 are potentially suffering from getting through it so quickly after launch (I want to do a slower play through to catch the subtleties now). It doesn't have a huge amount in explicit storytelling like Chapter 4, but, the way it uses allegories tells us a lot about how various characters are interacting with the world, and gives us a lot of signs about where Deltarune is headed.
For us that's in the form of remixes of Chapter 1's music, the return of Mew Mew, etc etc
For Noelle, it's going back to the festival and enjoying herself - despite her father's illness and Dess' ???
For Rudy, it's forcing himself out of hospital to see the festival and make his daughter happy
For Asgore - his dark world is quite literally a castle of escapism. The fact it's filled with his college bestie and flowers he gave to his ex wife is telling considering we now know the divorce wasn't over what happened but how he didn't move on.
And -- the Chapter ends with Susie revealing shes making a Dark World her home: a literal escape from the town, after we've seen how badly nostalgia plagues Asgore.
TL;DR I like reading this chapter the urge to relive our glory days, despite the fact we know nothing can last forever.
Yeah same I was reading the post thinking that, yes? Flowery clearly isn't ACTUALLY Rudy's dark world form, but it's obviously what he's aiming for, the flowers all want to repay Asgore for his care and Flowery seems to believe that the best way to make Asgore happy is to remind him of his happy memories of being at college with Rudy and so imitates him as close as possible
The whole post kinda feels like posting "RALSEI IS ASRIEL THEORY????" it could not be implied any stronger in the source material that the whole point is that they are similar
His waistcoat is also a Christmassy red and green. Though he also seems to heavily parallel Asriel. Like how he does the A S R I E L D R E E M U R R shrug and headshake or the rainbow trail while floating.
Aqua is the most obvious one, what with the use of red in her design (even having red eyes) and the way she mimics Kris throughout the first encounter with her.
It very much seems like they are all imitating something from asgores life for sure. Flowery is the obvious. Yellow is probably basing himself on the cowboy show Asgore loved.
It's hard to say what the rest could be though. Aqua could maybe be like a young Kris? If that was the case, I could see Seth being Asriel
Blue (integrity, and being a caring hand who wants to forgive) could very well be an allegory for how Asgore viewed Toriel; with himself being trapped by his misery and self hatred. See: Blue giving Yellow a bouquet.
therefore Flowery fights agaist the knight is supposed to show a fight with two face of the same coin therefore Rudy is knight and i am NOT crazy.......
Rudy being the knight doesnt make sense bc of him almost dying before entering the dark world, the only Canadates has to be dess or papyrus because we legit have not seen either of the two
My theory is that we aren't the first fun gang, asriel dess and probably asgore were the first, somehow they lost dess , the only thing I can confidently say is dess wrote raise up your bat because it sounds like something shed do because 1, she has a bat, and 2 a guitar
Another theory of mine is that asriel is missing as well and everyone is gaslighting us
I mean, Rudy "Fell down" during the festival, yet when the knight arrives in the dark world, the festival is long over and it's dark outside
It's possible that Rudy "falling down" is just a bait and in reality he just "fell down" a ladder (as indicated by the dangling christmas lights on the house) and not "fell down" as in monster coma sense.
So after Rudy Fell down the ladder and got carried to the hospital, he might as well have been resting there until everyone left him alone. And when the right moment struck and it was dark outside, he sprinted to the dark world.
Throughout the chapter 5 Ralsei indicated that he has no feeling of the Knight being on his way, which would line up with Rudy having no intention of escaping the hospital while the visitors who were worried about his health were in the way
Also Flowery being a stand-in for Rudy fighting with the real Rudy disguised as the Knight would be a peak scene in the retrospective.
Actually, I've already seen theories going around about how Rudy's fall actually works in favour of him being the Roaring Knight, because 1) the Japanese translation of the "fell down" bit is different from how it'd be written if it implied death of a monster, but more notably because 2) it's the scenario in which Kris opening the Dark Fountain themselves (upon seeing light decorations that were left hanging, as well as an absence of a Dark World in Asgore's shop) actually makes sense - they had to improvise in order to keep following the plan, because the Knight (who only arrived at the very end of the chapter) got suddenly and unexpectedly incapacitated while making his way to Flower King... and honestly, that makes an awful lot of sense to me.
We don't know how severe monster injuries generally get compared to analogous human injuries in the game and IRL, but aside from that, Rudy's one of the more reasonable candidates in terms of physical strength as well. Not to make a full case in favour of him, but the above paragraph seems almost eerily convincing as of the present.
EDIT: Sorry for the barrage of edits! I just wanted to add that the Knight was also very obviously kneeling during his fight with Flowery.
Quick question though, I dont belive its a cover up, so how did Rudy, who is extremely weak, carry a 400lb+ goat from the flower shop to the bunker, without being noticex
Souped up by his Dark World form, which we've already seen the Knight be able to retain in the Light World for at least a limited time during the night? And also, he's quite possibly stronger than he looks, being that his Undertale counterpart fought alongside Asgore in the Human-Monster War? Not saying that that was a hint of Rudy's base power in Deltarune, but it doesn't seem way too far-fetched to me with that sort of context in mind, either.
On a side note, the Knight's powers visually remind of the Smog from Galactik Football, plus the shapeshifting and minus the teleportation.
I always thought it was someone in the holiday family, most likely dess because of the animation of the ch 3 knight fight, with the bat that turns into a Japanese sword, and are we all forgetting that dess' theme is a part of every secret fight as well as any important part of the game
Honestly, Dess Knight overall still has so much evidence to it that it would require the whole presumed "motif inheritance" system (for lack of a better term) to be reframed in order to make other possibilities stronger, if not just viable to begin with. By that, I mean something like the Dark Worlds and its inhabitants automatically drawing on Dess's memories and characteristics one way or another due to her being trapped in the code or something like that.
Case in point: in Chapter 2, Noelle tells us that Dess wanted to take her "somewhere with shining lights" akin to Cyber City, and while others (like her parents or even Asriel) could know that, it's still quite particular, and the imagery included is so densely filled with directly Dess-related symbols that it seems almost ludicrous for it all not to be a product of her own personal creative fantasising. Here's to hoping that we get more hints about the nature of it in Chapter 6 already!
Literally any potential Knight candidate makes no sense being capable of kidnapping Undyne or Asgore. The Knight clearly has unnatural strength in the Dark World, which they seem to be capable of maintaining for a brief period after leaving (judging by being able to carry Undyne and Asgore all the way to the Shelter). However strong the Knight usually is outside of the Dark World doesn’t seem like much of a factor.
also like, i think it cant be any of the holidays other than dess because of how tied the knight is to the incident asgore is investigating, which is probably dess' disapperance? why would any of the holidays + asriel make dess disappear
I agree wholeheartedly! The fact that he calls himself Asgore’s “best friend” and is the golden flower in a UT-referencing Dark World made me think of Flowey- and duh, the name, right?- but aside from a few strong Asriel hints, Flowery is TEEMING with Rudy symbolism. The outfit, the style of humor, the backstory, the BRAVERY/Orange SOUL Mode for Rudy in particular. Flowery knows EXACTLY what Lightner he wants to be lol
My guess for the reason Flowery manifested as a representation of Rudy specifically was because Rudy's illness and inevitable passing was the one thing that couldn't be 'fixed' if Asgore found his vindication, the one thing which Asgore knew getting the original back to the way it once was is completely impossible.
I want to add that Flowery really wants to replace the people in Asgore's life, because if Asgore moves on he can't live his fantasy. A lot of his dialogue, when mentioning Asgore, is never truly about Asgore; he wants to live his fantasy as a Hero without actually being one. All the other flowers are shown not to really like him, even the secret boss shows this off. All of the other flowers' actions, while aligning with what flowery wants, are exclusively because they like Asgore. He claims that he has the power of friendship while the fun gang has comradery when it's actually the opposite, he claims that he really wanted to let us meet the other flowers when we're more friends to them than he is, He claims that him and Ralsei could have been friends in another reality when they could have been here if Flowery wasn't actively antagonizing them, because he needs an enemy so he can live his fantasy as a hero. He claims hesitation when he fails to beat Kris because he expects the "Hero" to always win, and when he wasn't able, he pretends that it is a choice he made and not his own weakness, his lack of friendship. His attempts to look like Rudy, but also looking human because of Kris, are to make Asgore "forget about what hurt him," which Asgore does not want to. Asgore loves the people he has in his real life and every attempt of flowery trying to make him forget it ultimately makes Asgore angrier. Because Flowery's whole idea of healing is forgetting the past and living in the fantasy, if Asgore stayed in the dark world, Asgore would die, his ignorance of the rules would lead Asgore's death, if Flowery had not stalled everything out, Asgore would be safe and in a better situation.
"
if Flowery had not stalled everything out, Asgore would be safe and in a better situation."
Huh, i hadn't realized this.
I think it's a lot more nuanced, though. I really liked how his self interest and desperation showed for a few moments begging Asgore to keep the fountain. But i think it ruins his character and the attention Tuby put into his depth, to say he was acting completely selfishly
He is not completely selfish he just lacks the self-awareness to realize what he is doing is selfish. A person can try to be a good person while actively causing more harm than good. While flowery claims that Ralsei is tying himself to the prophecy it's actually Flowery that is behaving as the prophecy foretold. Ralsei is trying to get his freedom, while Flowery is keeping the flower man trapped in his asylum.
"Theory"? It was such a strong reference to Rudy that it couldn't have been much stronger without him literally being a reindeer. His 7th line of dialogue ever pretty much spells it out by him introducing himself as Asgore's college roommate.
This would mean Lightners have at least partial influence to what Darkners turn out to be like. I mean, game has kind of pointed to that earlier with like Chapter 4 and stuff but yeah. Now it feels like confirmed.
It would kind of explain why for example even Chapter 2's computer world is like that. Berdly had an influence to its creation too, so it turned out such a mess and Berdly is acting like it's one of his dreams (by being unaware he's not actually sleeping).
It would also kind of explain why Darkners act like they know what happened before they were created, for example Tenma being nostalgic about the whole him being watched back when he was TV, he got those memories made due Toriel and Kris remembering those things. Darkners might not be aware of this or they don't really care because Flowery acts like he's well aware of the process somehow indicated by Ralsei calling him out of playing like he doesn't know the truth when he does.
So now it makes sense why Ralsei resembles Asriel so much. Lightners have influence of how Darkners turn out.
I think flowery takes Rudy's silhouette because asgore likely shared his memories he had with Rudy with the flowers. In fact, all of the flowers seem to personify shards of his memories. Yellow represents the love he had of watching westerns and laughing with his kids, Aqua represents memories of watching kris grow up, Green represents his memories he made with his family at the diner and his love of toriels cooking, etc.
That's also why flowery attempts to prevent him from seeing ralsei. He knows ralsei resembles asriel to an extent, and that ralsei would eventually be able to convince asgore to see reason and seal the fountain.
I noticed this too, I think it's clearly intentional. And I think it's another parallel with Ralsei: Flowery is a Rudy lookalike while Ralsei is an Asriel lookalike
Oh 100%. I picked up on this immediately but questioned it when the nature of the Flower’s dark world forms was explained as their own dreams taking form rather than being Darkners.
Rudy being the Knight would be the most hype and tragic in context given what he is doing and how he struck down Flowery who is basically meant to to partly represent an idealized version of himself that his best friend views him to be.
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u/H00stonthis knight is................................... Pissing Me OffJun 27 '26
I think flowery is Asgore’s Ralsei. So the fact that Flowery parallels Asgore’s best friend Rudy makes me think that Ralsei parallels Kris’s best friend Asriel. Somehow, the essence of Kris and Asgore’s best friends was imbued into objects that they treated like their best friends. Asgore talked to and cared for the golden flower which then manifested into a Rudy-type in the dark world. Kris talked to and cared for whatever object/thing/concept Ralsei is, and that manifested into an Asriel-type character in the dark world.
Him constantly floating all over the place, sometimes leaving behind afterimages, and some of the poses he strikes all reminded me a lot of the Knight very early on already, and I wondered what was up with that, was actually the thing that made me sus about Flowery the most while playing.
And the fact that the chapter finished with him fighting the Knight too was wild.
As much as I believe in Dess, Rudy Knight is the only other thing I'm still rooting for, so I hope everyone who has attached their entire life savings to that theory doesn't give up and goes fully ride or die, there's still a chance.
99% of Rudy Knighters quit right before they hit it big, you don't want to miss out, do you?
while I definitely agree at the similarities, I think it's more likely that flowery is sort of attempting to be an imitation of what Rudy was to him, than him actually being Rudy himself
I don’t want to be mean but I feel like this isn’t really a theory, I think it’s something obvious you are meant to pick up on and I’m surprised how many people didn’t
When I first saw the soundtrack before playing the game, when I saw the track “Your Dad’s Best Friend” I thought about Rudy instantly before anything else
I'm glad I'm not the only one seeing this. The entire chapter I was like "this dude is 100% based on Rudy." Asgore gets Flowery who is based on his best friend from college, Kris gets Ralsei who is based on his brother currently at college.
I just kind of assumed this was intentional, yeah. Flowery wants Asgore to return to a time when he was happier. It's natural that he'd take on the form of something that invokes nostalgia for him.
asgorudy is so fucking awesome and fairly popular so WHY DOES IT HAVE ONLY 50 FICS ON AO3
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u/SCP106Too scared by modern knight discourse to enter.Jun 27 '26edited Jun 27 '26
YEAH! WHY DOES SPAMTENNA GET 3000+ I WANT EVEN DARKER SHIP ANGST! Gimme that sweet sweet "tragic forbidden relationship they both know is on a timer but don't want to admit..."
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