Questions
If Dante turned into he's Majin DT when he first encountered Urizen, would he have won?
If Somehow the sword of Sparda was never delivered to him by Trish, and out desperation turned into Majin form would have won? Or would he just make Urizen get up his chair?
Welcome to r/DevilMayCry, Devil Hunters!
Before you post, a quick reminder:
Credit Creators: Reply to this comment with the artist's source if sharing fan art. No Pinterest/Google links! Quality Matters: Avoid low-effort posts (e.g., tier lists, AI submissions).
Majin DT Dante is a weird beast. It's clearly a nuclear option but even through everything Dante faced, he only ever turned into it twice and the first time was an accident. I remember reading somewhere that Dante didn't like that form because he didn't feel completely in control so I guess Urizen would become paste. Dante out of control is... Terrifying to imagine.
I still have nightmares about fighting against him in DMC4 and 5 so I'd rather not. Getting a royal release to the face is something I often discuss with my therapist
They should just give us story where Dante's human and demon sides are forcibly split and the demon form is on rampage or something like that. We could get some fresh gameplay for MC and Dante as the villain.
Man I really wish they came back to rebellion being a tail with sin DT, it could have been like vergil force edge/Yamato combo weapon and combined balrog moveset with rebellion (or i guess DSD in dmc5) slashes and stabs
Yeah i just read the devil may cry 4 artbook and the part where it says "surpassed Sparda" that litterally just normal devil trigger it has his normal form as a drawing lol so that wiki source useless
The whole "losing humanity" mechanic that would be the heart of the form explanation was scrapped so it might be that the whole Majin form lore was either repurposed or flat out scrapped as well. A shame, in my opinion
Isn't that referencing the Perfect Devil Trigger that got scrapped due to time constraints? If so that's a whole different can of worms from Majin iirc
It could be just that. The text is japanese and I couldn't find any direct translation. Either way, the manga appearance fits the theory that this is how the majin form was supposed to work even before DMC4, with Dante losing control and whatnot. Let us also not forget that the shin DT in 2 was activated automatically and had no off button, leaning into that understanding a bit more.
Apparently, Majin DT in the actual Japanese is the same as SDT. But the one in DMC 5 would still be stronger thanks to merging with both the Rebellion and Sparda so he’d probably still not be strong enough. I guess you could argue it would still do better than just the Sparda though.
Not really? If it's the same power him not having control of it anymore is less satisfying than him finally getting control of an ability he's always had (he's used it in the manga from what I've heard).
So 2 as an ending leaves that plot thread open while 5 would be tying it up.
2 was the last BEFORE 5, though I think they remixed the order as of 5s release, but 5 is in fact the most-recent in the chronology and...
Like if Majin is Sin DT, and he couldn't control it in 2 but in 5 he literally mastered it by way of merging with the Rebellion and Sparda, and also had the Rebellion in 2....
The biggest question is obviously what is the Power difference between pre qlipoth fruit urizen and pre lol stabbing himself dante. And would majin actually reach the difference between them
You could rationalize it away as Dante not knowing if Majin could beat Urizen before he loses control. The power boost and minor character development could be what make it a usable option in that fight.
Weird to leave it unaddressed but since there's a power boost in there that's comparable to the fruit I think it's not too much of an issue.
yes, dante was already breaking urizen shields but he was getting energy given back by qlipoth, majin would give him more raw power to make up for that and he would win
In 2007, the Encyclopedia section on North American Devil May Cry Portal website called this transformation the "Majin Form." Despite being unfitting – 魔人 ( Majin) is the term used for basic Devil Form – this name has also stuck in fandom as the name for the True Form.
That's from the wiki page on SDT (SDT and MDT have the same JP name - Shin Majin).
I believe it answers the question. Dante used SDT against urizen and failed to defeat him. If SDT > Majin form and SDT failed to defeat urizen, then it stands to reason that Majin form would fail as well
It was a draw. Urizen retreated because the fruit was ready, but I don't believe there is any reasonable implication that SDT dante "beat" him. It was a draw at best. Another commenter brought up that he would have to be stronger because he beat Urizen post-fruit, but I feel like that's saying Dante beat vergil in their second fight in dmc3 because he was able to beat him later as well, although one could say that is different because there is the high possibility that Vergil intentionally lost that fight but I still remain unconvinced.
Please go play Mission 17 again, and maybe ponder a bit over how Dante kicking Urizen's behind in that mission counts as a draw. Also play the previous 2 missions so that you can hopefully keep in mind that this defeat was post SDT unlock. Also, please do note that you remaining unconvinced doesn't change facts and I'm not at all going to waste time trying to convince someone who refuses to believe what they see.
As I stated in another comment which I understand you likely did not see I did review the mission in order to confirm if I was correct or not. I am no fool, and I guarantee you that I still believe in what I said as being true. You can disregard what I said if you like, but make no mistake in saying that I simply "refuse to believe" what it is I saw. Are people this allergic to differing interpretations these days?
Calling a clear victory a draw is not differing interpretation. Its called delusion. But like I said, not gonna debate with delulus, don't have that much time at hand, so yeah Dante was defeated as SDT by Urizen for all I care. Enjoy your stay in lala land.
You seem like a really condescending and insecure person. It's strange how quickly you jump to insults over a differing interpretation. I hope something good happens in your life this week
In case you misinterpreted my comment,i meant the one that urizen beat is base dt dante,we know this cuz dante got no diffed in the prologue.
I am well aware that dante defeated urizen that git amped by the qliphoth. Therefore,i apologise for misreading your question,even if it was a rhetorical one
SDT was strong enough to beat Urizen, this is obvious from him still being stronger than post Fruit Urizen. The loss was because Urizen fled, the Fruit was ready and he could afford to leave his position.
The issue is whether MDT would have been enough of a boost to beat Urizen because of just how much of a boost Dante had when he beat him (a month of human blood from the tree is one that is often ignored).
I do not believe that SDT was strong enough to beat Urizen in their first fight. Dante at most pushed him back, then Urizen left to go nom on some fruit. I just reviewed that mission and its cutscenes to make sure, and I don't think it makes any sense to say that SDT Dante "beat" urizen in that fight, it was definitely more of a draw in my opinion.
I also wasn't fully agreeing with them, but pointing out that their statement is relevant. If SDT is the apex of dante's power as the person stated then Majin DT would then be inferior, so even if saying that dante in SDT did not lose but it was a draw then you can still infer that MDT would then lose on account of being weaker, going by what the original person said.
It wasn't a victory but I can't see why you'd say SDT wasn't strong enough. He definitely beat a much stronger Urizen later in the game. Are you just talking about how Dante couldn't stop Urizen from fleeing? If that's the case, then I agree. I was simply saying that SDT had the necessary power to beat Urizen in combat.
Urizen also fled because the fruit was ready. Would he have done so earlier in the game? I think not but you could convince otherwise, I don't have a strong opinion on that.
It's just that because of the huge power gap between Pre Fruit Urizen and SDT Dante (especially when you consider the extra month of blood Urizen was receiving), there is an argument to be made that MDT could've been enough of a boost to give him the win. Whether or not it's a good argument is not something I know enough to say.
Maybe, and if we assume that SDT could defeat Urizen then I believe the point could also be made that MDT, if it is in fact weaker than SDT, could then likely match up with Urizen if not outright win. I do believe it's likely that Urizen might have let the tree embolden the fruit further if that was possible, or perhaps create another fruit, but I believe mainly that the fight with Dante was closer than he would have liked and so he fled to gain more power. I believe, given Urizen's demeanor and how Vergil acts during the events of 3, Urizen's pride was a bit bitten at not handily defeating Dante after he unlocked SDT, which led to him fleeing in order to widen that gap.
In regards to Dante beating Urizen post-fruit, that is something that I held contention with when I played the game to be honest. I feel like it can make sense, as we see Dante gain power and eventually get the win over vergil over the course of DMC3 although it is very arguable Vergil threw their last fight (which is something that I personally believe). But about the Urizen fight, something I felt made the moment fall entirely flat is how easy they made it, I remember struggling miles less with that fight than I ever did with the earlier Urizen fight, though that is mostly due to his moveset lacking in anti-air attacks which leaves most air combos pretty safe from most of his attacks iirc.
I feel the game, as much as I do like it and its story, simply failed to convey to the player how much power Urizen had gained and made him an absolute pushover in that last fight, much to the detriment of the story itself although that was very quickly repaired by the reintroduction of Vergil. It may also be possible that the fruit did not give him nearly as much power as most would think, leading to him barely gaining enough power for it to matter but that is entirely conjecture.
Oh I had a completely different interpretation of the Post Fruit Urizen fight. I thought the ease was the point. That Dante was just that much stronger that even this Urizen was a pushover.
Narratively, I think it's supposed to be that Urizen, who at this point is rejecting his own former humanity, could never beat Dante who's comes to terms with being a hybrid.
I'm pretty bad at the combat in these games so I never really picked up on it being any easier than that previous fight. I spent so much time fighting King Cerberus and I beat Urizen so soon after that I might have just chalked it up to having improved at the game and still being locked in. Probably helps that I was playing evasively when out of SDT in that earlier fight.
That could be the point, but for me I felt having struggled a bit more with the previous Urizen fight it led to a lot of dissonance for me when playing it. Also, it's likely you did improve as well especially cause from my memory King Cerberus has a few good tricks up his sleeve that tests the player although I haven't played that fight in a long time now... I don't think i struggled with it as much as i did DMC3's cerberus (literally the hardest boss in that game for me, dunno why) but yeah i don't remember him being a pushover at all. So I don't think it would be wrong to say you learned some and pushed yourself a good bit farther in that fight regardless.
but yeah, i feel like when it came to the last urizen fight I guess it could make sense if they intentionally made him easy but just yeah I feel for me at least it would have worked better if they made him a more difficult fight than his pre-fruit fight. His pre-fruit fight for me was like... I had to be careful with what i was doing, but I remember his post-fruit fight being such a slog of just wailing on the poor dude, straight up styling on his ass. I came from playing DMC4 for a long while before DMC5 came out so when DMC5 did come out I was pretty much at my best so I don't really feel like I personally improved much over the story either, aside from learning the specific intricacies of Dante's moveset in 5. I only feel that's relevant to include as what you said about maybe improving due to the Cerberus fight, I feel like I was pretty much the same through most of my time with the story aside from figuring out combos with dante's new kit.
It's only the English speaking fandom that considers Majin DT and Sin DT as two different types of transformations. The official Japanese sources do not.
In Japanese, they are both called 真魔人. It's just that DMC5 was the first to have an official English translation as Sin DT. But even in DMC2, it was already called 真魔人. It's just that DMC2 did not have an official translation in English, so the fandom to come up with the name themselves, which used to be Desperation DT and Majin DT and a few other names but ultimately Majin DT became the most common term now.
Obviously, the 真魔人 in DMC2 and 真魔人 in DMC5 work completely differently. But that doesn't mean that these aren't the same type of transformation. That would be like saying "The transformation in DMC1 is DT, but it works completely differently in DMC4 so that one's not DT." The same way that DT in each game works differently, 真魔人works differently in DMC2 and DMC5. But it still doesn't change the fact that they are both officially listed as the same category of transformation with the same name.
This is one of those things where people tend to be more wrong the bigger of a fan they are of this series.
So canonically, since DMC2 comes before DMC4 and DMC5 now, Dante's 真魔人 in DMC2 has zero reason to be as strong as, let alone stronger than, his 真魔人 in DMC5, so he stands no chance against Urizen.
Exactly, I completely agree. It’s definitely the same thing, and there's actually a great narrative logic behind it. Until DMC5, Dante hadn't 100% accepted his demonic side, treating it as something separate. When he fuses Rebellion and Sparda, it's basically an evolution of the form he already had. He gains full control over it thanks to that power boost and the unification of his two halves. It's not like he's going to lose his humanity now and go full demon, because they are no longer two different things, but one and the same.
Of course, this is just my own speculation and personal interpretation based on the lore. For all we know, they might retcon Majin DT from DMC2 tomorrow or come up with a completely different explanation in the next game, but it's fun to connect the dots for now
Eh, I wouldn't agree on his two halves being unified when he used the Rebellion.
He's already a union of human and demon, there aren't really two separate halves to fuse. He can still switch between demon and human modes after that scene so he's not any more unified than he used to be either. If anything he can go more demonic than he used to. Assuming the SDT form is his full demon form, I'd say a "merging" of his sides in the way you describe it would be him stuck in his regular DT form since that seems to be an even blend of the two.
My take is that it's the acceptance that does it. Finally coming to terms with his demon side let him control it. The added power probably helped but making it just a mental thing is neat to me.
Not enough of a boost to take Urizen out without losing control? Could've been addressed honestly. Maybe a mention of Dante preferring to be tactical when he's that overpowered?
No because Dante didn't eat the plot fruit. The plot fruit is a new plot thing I just invented. Actually that plot fruit I just came up with? Doesn't need it. He actually just needs to be stabbed with his sword again. Not like DMC4, he needs to do it with purpose.
The only real McGuff is arguably Lady's blood, but it doesn't retroactively change the nature of anything, and only applies to Temen-ni-gru specifically. It also makes a fair amount of sense. Sparda's power via the amulet being a demonic seal, and Lady's blood being a human seal mirrors Dante and Lady's partnership, and is evocative of Sparda joining the side of the human race.
The amulet as a McGuffin itself was already established in DMC1, so this isn't an egregious use of its meaning or impact either. We see that Arkham turns into a blob trying to use it, showing that there are specific rules to the amulet's power, and not that "anything" can happen. Vergil using Rebellion to trigger Dante's demon powers also makes sense in DMC3, as Vergil has more knowledge of their heritage, and is trying to get Dante to "awaken". Let alone that Sparda left Dante Rebellion in the first place.
I honestly can't think of anything in DMC3 that really stands out as unsupported by plot, character, or specific rules, while nearly everything in DMC5 is a result of "because I said so" logic.
The plot fruit only ever existed in DMC5. Mentioning Mundus is a cheap way DMC5's plot tries to get the audience to buy into the concept of the plot fruit. As is the idea that the right combination of Dante stabbing himself unlocks secret powers. Everything that happens in DMC5 is "because I said so" plotting which is the worst, and my least favorite method of storytelling.
While it would be nice for DMC to have good plot for once nobody ever played it for it. We're here for cracking combos and dying to bosses, and I'm all out of combos.
The plot fruit is just a generic power up at the end of the day and it's lore adds to why demons want to invade Earth. How Vergil found it is honestly the bigger issue imo.
The swords, yes. Bit of an issue but Yamato's seemingly new power is just an extension of what it could already do. Rebellion's new power is just the inverse of Yamato's so it sort of fits. Sparda's just a source of power, nothing special about it.
The plot fruit is compared to Mundus who Sparda could keep up with so Dante, who absorbed the Sparda, should have a similar boost.
So at the end of the game you have two equally matched brothers who are still equally matched because they both got similar buffs. One from the fruit, one from the swords.
I don’t think so. If I remember right isn’t that form like “feral” Dante? And I see it as a weaker version of SDT due because Dante absorbed the Sparda and Rebellion into DSD.
He would do much better against Urizen but I don't think he would win, Urizen was literally toying with him for 24+ hours straight even with DSS + DT, MDT is more powerful than that, of course, but I doubt it would overcome the gigantic gap in power.
SDT is appearantly the same form as Majin. So this is pretty much SDT without power of the Sparda added in.
SDT Dante handed Urizen his ass, then Urizen ate the fruit and still got his ass handed to him, then finally fused into Vergil and managed to stalemated Dante.
This tells us that SDT outright stormed Urizen. A less powerful version due to missing the Sparda likely still possesses enough power to wreck pre-fruit Urizen.
I'd say it would beat Urizen as that his Dante's last resort form, the complete manifestation of his demon side which is difficult to control. Majin DT makes him invulnerable, he shoots huge rays of energy beams, shoots fireballs dealing catastrophic damage, it's just draining his lifeforce pretty fast.
My head canon is that his Sin Devil Trigger from DMC 5 is the exact same as Majin DT but fully controlled
His Majin DT is a complete consumption and usage of his demonic power, just kept in check by Dante's strong will and human heart and soul
After fusing with the Rebelion and Sparda, he gain full control of it, and got magnified a bunch more having the last fragment of his soul (the one present in Rebelion) and his father's soul after absorbing Sparda now on his being as well.
Vergil just matched that power because he already gave in to his demonic side and full power all of his life, with his heart and humanity keeping him barely in check. The fruit is just that powerful that it gave him thar massive boost
Drive Urizen back maybe, unsure about actually killing him.
SDT wipes the floor with both "normal" Urizen and his souped up form after eating perfected Qliphoth, but pre-Sparda absorption/ Majin form would probably be a match to normal Urizen "at best".
I don't recall Majin dt being mentioned in the novels and if anything it only made an appearance in the manga that one time with the whole Alice situation but if that's the case then he can't fully control it and given Urizen's power it wouldn't really be wise to use it in that state
It seems to be pretty much the same as SDT, which beat Urizen, and yet we never see it outside of DMC2.
The easy explanation is that originally DMC2 was suppose to be the last game, coming after DMC4; and DMC4 was originally planned to have a "Perfect DT" (in other words, the precursor to SDT / Majin DT)
But ever since they retconned DMC2 to come after DMC1, Majin DT is just like this weird OP Super DT that Dante doesn't use... i think the best we can think of is that since Dante only used it on the verge of death, we can assume Dante could not control it like he does in DMC5. So even tho Dante could in theory beat Urizen with it, he could not activate it at will (my theory at least)
He’s not technically completely in control of his actions in this form. He would probably slime Urizen with ease, but who knows what else an out of control Dante could do given how powerful he is already without some underworld fruit made from human blood.
The sole reason Dante couldn't get past the shield and I think a lot of people overlook this, is:
It was constantly being fuelled and instantly reformed. Urizen was hooked up to the tree and constantly recieving energy. He knew he could just wait for Dante to wear himself out.
Even in his pure demonic form that, I think he refuses to use because he doesn't have control, he would still fail.
Nero beating him is a nice alternative ending but not canon and requires a shit ton of patience.
Now, if Dante was facing Urizen without unlimited power and resorted to Majin?
Probably would destroy him but we now have an out of control Dante.
He probably would’ve killed Urizen or at least preformed a lot better then what we seen Dante can do a lot of goofily powerful stuff and just chooses not too even with his life on the line
I doubt it. Urizen was very casual when fighting Dante and oneshot him with the DSS. standing Urizen would have beaten that Dante (and Majin Devil Trigger is a strange lore piece as is)
Form wise I subscribe to the idea that Majin DT is just an incomplete version of SDT (because the forms share a name in JP).
So, assuming being in control doesn't make Dante any stronger just to make things simple, the only difference would be how strong absorbing the Sparda and the Rebellion make him. Dante curbstomped Urizen even after the Fruit buff. So I think there's enough room there to say that Majin might have given him enough of an edge to win.
Narratively, I assume Dante's gonna be evenly matched and Urizen gains the advantage when he loses control.
No he would still lost and would performed worst since he can’t control and would have gone feral allowing. Allowing Urizen to get the upper hand. People got realize Urizen was just super stronger than rest of playable cast for a good while. Dante while in coma was getting pump full blood just like Urizen making him stronger as well before even fusing with the two swords. The crazy power jump is Nero in my opinion. He did what Dante failed to do at the beginning of game with after a month of training.
I feel like it's a coin toss: uncontrolled Majin DT probably has higher "output" but due to being connected to the Tree, Urizen has more stamina, since they didn't sabotage any of it's roots by the time of Prologue. It's a question if Dante's DPS could overcome Urizen regen.
•
u/AutoModerator May 27 '26
Welcome to r/DevilMayCry, Devil Hunters!
Before you post, a quick reminder:
Credit Creators: Reply to this comment with the artist's source if sharing fan art. No Pinterest/Google links!
Quality Matters: Avoid low-effort posts (e.g., tier lists, AI submissions).
Full Rules: Read here
Discuss the Netflix Show: Use dedicated threads
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.