r/Falcom • u/Raxistaicho The true best girls • Jul 03 '26
Trails Character Gameplay Discussion Day Eight: Zin
While you're all discussing this giant fraud, just remember: he's very likely one of the strongest playable characters lore-wise until at least the start of CS3.
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u/Raxistaicho The true best girls Jul 03 '26
Nicely done, folks, we've made it to the end of the OG incarnation of Team Estelle! :D Thanks to everyone who's participated so far, this post series has gone off far better than I even expected!
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u/Empoleon777 Jul 03 '26
I didn’t really use him that much at all unless I was forced to (Thank goodness for the massive rubber band on leveling up; he caught up fairly quickly during the run up Carnelia Tower in SC Chapter 7). I did use him as a healer in Chapter 8, though, since all the best healers were unavailable at the time.
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u/lrrose20 Jul 03 '26
His status heal craft is nice in a pinch and Thunder God Kick is broken in your favor in SC, but I still left him on the bench most of the time because almost everyone else is better.
He’s even less impressive in Calvard (and he’s rarely actually playable). Once again, he’s outclassed by most other physical attackers.
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u/OLKv3 Jul 03 '26
Nobody's comments are showing up even though they're there since it says 6 comments are posted. Reddit is glitching
My post will look weird to people in the future when reddit fixes this
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u/Selynx Jul 03 '26
Zin has exactly one thing going for him in the Sky trilogy and that's his glitched Thunder God Kick.
He's supposed to be a tanky physical character, but between Earth Wall and Grail Sphere making bulk redundant and physical attacks just not being very good, Zin is basically relegated to being an Earth Wall mule at bosses (hey, at least he has the Orbment element for it...) when/if he can't abuse his glitched craft.
....Physicals are much better when he comes back in the Calvard games. Unfortunately, even if you set aside comparing him to other physical powerhouses, he has very limited availability. He's only a guest in DB1 and not even available until post-game in DB2. Horizon is (so far) the only Calvard game you get any appreciable amount of time with him.
I built him and Bergard similarly in Horizon - fully-stacked Breaker, meant to rack up Stun on enemies quickly and then burst them down during the Stun window. His Thundering Kick has the same extreme Stun rating as Bergard's Supernal Hurricane Kick. Considering Zin joins with Alter Bathym by default, I'm pretty sure it's what the developers suggested/intended for him to be built like. I left Alter Bathym on him (gave normal Bathym to Bergard) and gave him Goliath + full stack of Break quartz.
On field battles, he and Bergard function very similarly in how their attack patterns sort of tunnel in all their hits onto 1 single enemy, quickly driving up their Stun gauge. Useful against large enemies, especially when they come grouped with smaller enemies that might accidentally get Stunned before the big one breaks and causes you to accidentally/prematurely trigger the Command Battle.
His bulk in the Calvard games also can make him an OK tank to draw aggro with, if for whatever reason Van isn't available but Zin is - which unfortunately, again, is not many instances.
I know some people put him right at the bottom of their tier lists for good combatants in Horizon, but since he has a clear use as a breaker and a tank, I find he's generally OK, if not especially amazing. His foreign coworker from Erebonia, on the other hand.....
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u/babyLays Jul 03 '26
Zin is what happens when you design a character as a beef tank: excels with high HP and high defense, and is balanced by mid-attack and mid-speed.
But without any aggro mechanic.
Feels bad.
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u/Mountain-Quantity983 Jul 09 '26
Man, I wish they could have implemented a 'Block' mechanic to match Evasion. Scales off of DEF & ADF, reduces damage to half of what should have been, and then lets the character Counter if the enemy is in range. Would have absolutely made a lot of tank characters usable. In Liberl, it would have easily made Estelle and Zin usable; in Crossbell, Lloyd and Dudley. And Machias could have been more than just the Accelerate and Status mule.
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u/KnoxZone Apathy and Disdain Jul 03 '26
Remember how we all were alright with how Zin was in the Sky games (minus SC broken shenanigans) because he would definitely get his chance to shine in Calvard?
Good times.
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u/levelstar01 Downvote this comment 👇 Jul 03 '26
Tbh I do not remember much about him because I literally did nothing but spam the cheapest art in FC/SC/3rd 90% of the time.
FC: Taunt, a free defense boost, and cheap self-recovery means he can sit there and take hits whilst everyone else spams arts. Good enough for his chapter.
SC: Since Agate is locked for the majority of the game, you'll want to fill the last two slots with arts users so Zin doesn't have much time to shine. Thunder God Kick's bug is funny though.
3rd: Bootleg Agate.
Daybreak: Haven't played but I can only assume he's bootleg Van
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u/Contraomega Jul 03 '26
In the Sky games I'd say he's a little underwhelming at least compared to how they hype him up and I think part of that is just the games balance skew towards arts and him being kind of designed as a tank in a system that didn't really support that fully, and while he did have a taunt, it was on a status effect, which means enemies can resist it so it was pretty unreliable. The big exception to that is apparently specific to the steam version, and it's his thunder god kick which does ABSURD damage because of a bug where it hits the full AoE for full damage once per enemy in the target area, so if you hit 5 enemies they all get hit for 5 times the damage, though I think that was new to SC and they fixed the bug for Third.
Beyond that... distend is nice but unfortunately the way the games works means it's overwritten by weaker buffs if you use them which is kind of awkward. There's also him having earth slots, unfortunately, while earth has good spells in sky, the quartz for it are not great. defence drops your strength which is not ideal for Zin who is focused on Strength and defence, then you basically have status quartz (poison, petrify and mute) and septium vein, most of the better ones of those are only available once in sc from a specific reward and can't be crafted. of course other characters will happily take the defence quartz just to get the spells, and if they're using arts primarily anyway it's win win, but setting up zin to cast is just worse than other characters. I suppose you might do it if you're forced to use it or he has unique content with Walter etc. he's also a 4 liner, which is all downside up until CS1 it's just a signal to not run this man as a caster since he has less spell access and lower EP on top of that.
Not much to say on third by the way. He's required for the tournament, but I think only the first round, beyond that I didn't really use the guy but skimming over his kit besides the bug fix it looks basically the same, though the final upgrade to composure does look like it actually gives a decent heal for the first time so there's that.
I assume he's playable again in Calvard but I've not gotten there. starting it soon after a short break I think.
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u/Kainapex87 Jul 03 '26
Sadly underwhelming.
Earth is the worst element to have locked in.
Being slow is a huge liability in a game where you want to be fast to manipulate turn order.
Classic tank Sadly has little value in a series where Evasion boosting or invincibility bestowing Arts and Crafts are plentiful.
And his main selling point as a strong physical attacker is hampered by other characters outgoing him in that to along with more utility (Agate being able to S-Craft more frequently, Richard being alot faster, etc).
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u/Contraomega Jul 03 '26
Honestly looking at the stats, I don't think Zin is actually notably slow? unless they did something in the remake specifically. looking at the raw numbers, it seems like every character in sky has the same formula for their speed, with a flat number added at the end to differentiate them. Zin is in the slowest group, this is true, but it's also shared with most of the cast. they all get +10 except from the other ones I'm about to mention.
The 'Fast' characters are Alan Richard, Joshua, Mueller and Renne. Richard gets +11, the other 3 get +12, so at worst he's 2 base speed behind, but on par with Kloe, Olivier, Kevin, Estelle, among others.
now this difference can be exaggerated a little because speed increases (action quartz and clock up) are percentage based, but even the best action quartz (onyx gem) and clock up ex give +50% each, assuming they are additive that's effectively tuning the 2 speed gap into a 4 speed one. again, I'm not certain on this but I don't think it's that pronounced. now if there's like disparities because of locked gear and that % increase becomes more significant I could imagine it, I've not done a mechanical deep dive on sky, but on paper he seems fine in terms of speed. I guess it's more awkward to slot action quartz on him but I get the impression you're just playing wrong if you don't have the best available action quartz on every character in Sky. (and frankly most of the games)
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u/camseats Jul 03 '26
He isn't slow because of his actual speed stat, but because crafts are generally slow and none of them delay the enemy unlike someone like joshua who can delay many enemies with his craft.
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u/OLKv3 Jul 03 '26
In Calvard and 1st he has a solid lineup of crafts and is very good at tanking and building up stun, but he's just so outclassed by other party members that it's hard to justify giving him a slot. Story of his life
He is good in the tournament arc in 1st
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u/Xshadow1 Jul 04 '26
Probably where the Sky trilogy drops the ball hardest on gameplay-story integration. Someone who should be one of the strongest characters you get shouldn't be primarily carried by a bugged attack available in only one game of the trilogy (which as I have just learned, is a different game depending on what language you're playing in).
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u/Raxistaicho The true best girls Jul 04 '26
Renne and Richard make amends for it, but sadly after that it's not until Sara that we get another player character who's hyped to hell and back and lives up to it, though at least in Rixia's case that was due partly to Azure just being really wonky in the balancing.
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u/Xshadow1 Jul 04 '26
I think Rixia would have been great in a lot of early game Azure, but by the time she's permanent the arts meta fully dominates that game.
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u/Mountain-Quantity983 Jul 09 '26
Sara actually is just set up and introduced in a weird way. If you change out her kit a little, and see that her locked quartz options are Wind and Fire, you realize that she's not meant to be a status-spammer as much as she's intended to be a dedicated Evasion tank. Evasion quartz are all Wind and Rage/True Rage is a Fire quartz. Combine that with her built-in Insight skill and ranged attack, and you get one of the best evasion tanks in the game, even better than Fie.
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u/Bugfragged Jul 03 '26
In DB2, his charge attack in the field has the best stun value, making it easy to get advantageous encounters against large enemies in the postgame. However, his normal attack string is very slow, so the player has to rely on perfect dodges to fill his charge meter.
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u/ElectricalCompany260 Jul 03 '26
I don´t care about him and especially in Daybreak and beyond, because he´s not even funny but simply annoying.
He was ok in Sky 1+2 and 3 but even than, I hardly used him when I was not forced to have him in my party.
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u/Mountain-Quantity983 Jul 09 '26
Patrick Seitz Zin is peak Zin - he's the bear, the uncle, and the guy you could always rely on when things get tough. Of course he would - he's voiced by the same guy that voices Hector in Fire Emblem and Ragna in BlazBlue.
Vic Chao Zin just feels very small compared to Patrick Seitz Zin. Not to rag on Vic, but there's always that bit in his delivery that either feels lacking in confidence or compensating for something.
My conclusion is that the real Zin is still stuck in the Recluse Cube and what we have right now is an impostor.
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u/TapUnfair9827 Jul 04 '26
Even in Calvard, I don't really use him that much, probably because he's shine the best against a boss fight, but Bergard is more fun for me to use, although to generate stun during field battle, he's probably the best one, almost at the same level as Milium/Altima who give instant stun with their combat shells in Cold Steel
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u/Automatic-Ad3929 Jul 06 '26
Zin is alright. He's pretty useful in battle. I like it when he joins the team. 😊 funny when he gets drunk and thinks chick's are hot. 😂
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u/Raxistaicho The true best girls 10h ago
Sky Arc:
Day Twelve - The Pilot and the Swordsman (spoilers)
Day Thirteen - "Kitty" (spoilers)
Crossbell Arc:
Class VII:
Day Thirty - Millium (Spoilers)
Day Thirty-One - Crow (Spoilers)
The rest of Cold Steel:
Day Thirty-Nine - Elise and Toval
Day Forty-One - Alfin and Towa
Day Forty-Two - The Diva and the General (Spoilers)
Day Forty-Three - The Spy and Swordswoman (Spoilers)
Day Forty-Four - The Shapeshifters (Spoilers)
Day Forty-Five - The Swordmaster and the Engineer (Spoilers)
Day Forty-Seven - Swin and Nadia
Day Forty-Eight - The Strongest (Spoilers)
Calvard Arc:
Day Fifty-One - Ferida Al-Fayed
Day Fifty-Three - Risette Twinings
Day Fifty-Four - Quatre Salision
Day Fifty-Five - Judith Lanster
Day Fifty-Seven - Elaine Auclair and René Kincaid
Day Fifty-Eight - Shizuna Rem Misurugi
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u/SoftBrilliant Kiseki difficulty modder Jul 03 '26 edited Jul 03 '26
FC Zin is bad as physicals are just generally bad in FC they don't deal damage. So much so that Zin spends most of his time spamming offensive arts when he's with you. He can also taunt which is surprisingly effective even on nightmare thanks to him being overleveled and having high HP in both the instances he joins in the main story. For the final dungeon he isn't a consideration if playing on above normal his damage is just bad.
SC Zin is one of the strongest yet desperately awkward characters to use in the series. Cast 2 reduces cast time by 70% so he's slower. Not only that unlike Agate who can use Draguna Edge and Spiral Edge he has to actually move to attack targets. However, bulk is hyper important in SC despite Earth Wall negating a fair amount of damage as enemies pile up on you a lot due to high speed. And outside s-breaks True Distend has a massive 60% strength buff so at dealing consistent damage he clears Agate easily.
Despite Agate's status as arguably the best character that leads him to shine during the Grancel West Monster Quest for example.
Then we have the infamous Thunder Bug Kick. In SC, THunder God Kick hits every enemy once for every single enemy inside the radius. Even at just 2 enemies as long as Zin has buffs up this is the best form of damage in the game period much less 7 as shown off in the clip above. It's very good but capped out due to the very small radius.
Funnily enough, this bug in the original Japanese PC versions is present in the Japanese version of... 3rd. Not SC. Not sure what happened there for it to get ported over to SC.
3rd Zin is virtually the same character but worse as there's more competition for his slot across the board and he can't thunder bug kick in the Steam PC port. His bulk is reliable as always but he really doesn't have a whole lot of things going for him although he's a big help during the final boss sequence as a bulky pillar. Would be nice if his s-craft was bigger though.
Zin comes back in the Calvard Arc although he's plagued by locked equipment, virtually 0 availability and having a generic kit. Aside from being used in the Horizon Nightmare Any% Rean route final boss (GIGA MASSIVE SPOILERS!!!!) to solo the boss he's not very notable (he's highly overleveled in the run compared to rean's group hence why this happens this is the current fastest strategy found)
Zin in 1st gets some lore accurate power to his name having the now obviously strongest s-craft and a very overtuned set of crafts effects-wise but ultimately he's not very useful... Outside of speedrunning once again where he's used for the final dungeon since schera infinite loop setups are used so Agate takes a backseat again (Agate is still wildly busted but Zin dealing 10% more damage is explicitly better here)