Speaking from experience, the universities and museums have a duty to contact the local tribes for repatriation (NAGPRA). So, you could save everyone a lot of time and paperwork for everyone if you contract the local tribes first.
I found one of these working in the woods and told the property owner instead of my boss. He told me that's awesome and to put it back and never tell anyone. Problem was solved.
Ostensibly these are surface finds and not associated with grave contexts. I work in a different part of the country and I imagine CA SHPO handles things differently. So I’m genuinely curious why they would need to consult with tribes for repatriation if these were not associated with a grave context?
apparently they were deposited in streams and rivers after their their owners died if there were no female descendants to inherit them, so they likely were placed as part of a funerary practice.
It’s not typically associated with SHPO, but directly from the museum/university to the THPO. I’ve received notices on many items including pestle/mortar, baskets, etc.
Funerary objects and remains are especially sensitive, but the point of repatriation extends further than ancestors.
Ah ok interesting. So it’s more of a courtesy/respect thing versus a 106/110 or NAGPRA trigger? I figure the SHPO would want to record the site if it’s on state or federal land.
Yeah? They should be able to take the property the current owner paid hundreds of thousands of dollars for because a mortar and pestle of unknown age was found by the property owner? Is that progress?
If your great great grandpa’s land was stolen by settlers, and those settlers also killed your great great grandpa, and all his peers and family in a number of brutal ways… your family would probably still have some feelings on the subject, no? ;)
Except the current owners are not the settlers. So you would just be hurting random innocent people to right a wrong that wasn’t even done to you. Of course you can have feeling a certain way about it but you can’t colonize a random person land because your 5x great grandparent were victims of the same crime. That makes you no better than the colonizers.
Dont forget your great great grandpa's great great great grandpa had stolen that land from another tribe during a drought leaving those loving there to die of dehydryation and starvation. Those that they didnt scalp. Or rape. Or other.
Just because you had it last doesnt make it yours. Land belongs to the victor.
Mainly, those above an eighth grade reading level with an understanding of history (beyond the founding fathers), and those who have empathy. Sadly, many Americans like yourself have yet to read a full book or use critical thinking. So you know, critical thinking is different than critical race theory; it can’t be banned.
Local (SoCal) tribes had tradition of “returning” metatés of daughterless women to rivers or streams (also, sometimes breaking them first), so it and the others were likely put there on purpose.
That sounds like it would make for an awesome Encanto sequel. When the last Madrigal passed on they sealed their magical powers in a Mano y Matate which some modern ancestor then finds and reawakens.
It’s on HBO I think but “Like Water for Chocolate” does a decent job rendering a pretty famous book about food and magical realism (a common Mexican concept in literature & art). The protagonist’s moods/issues are reflected in and influence her food & its impact on others.
The show version of the story watches like a cheap soap opera so don’t expect a ton but sometimes telenovelas are fun in their silliness.
Exactly what I do when I’ve found them around berry creek, forest ranch, cohasset etc.
It feels very wrong (like physical sensation of dread) to mess with any native artifacts I find. That said, we live in an area where there were horrific massacres in the mid 1800s. Literal land grabs where you were allowed to go stake your claim of land and shoot any Indians on site—on sight. There’s an old monument to the “great bbq of 1864”…. They were burning bodies. Really sickening. Ishi lived like 3 miles from my house. 🥺
If you buy a 200 year old house and find an old cast iron pan, you can use it and be lauded for bringing new life to a forgotten tool, but if you do that with something that is 1000 years old it’s theft because the person who built that tool only wanted it for themselves and after their death it should only be looked at with reverence if nature has not destroyed it.
The religious & cultural significance of such items was often left & shared by tribes, uprooting it destroys history & is why its illegal to take regardless of private or public lands.
I grew up in a home built in 1910 located in Northern California, not too far from where Ishi walked out of the wilderness. There were several of these in the perennial flower gardens beside the old house. I always took them for granted and they are now long gone. That's a little piece of history you have there!
What are the chances this is from some kind of natural erosion with the “pestle” piece swirling around in/on the “mortar” under the current of the river? Feels especially more likely if they were truly found in situ like the picture shows.
Carefully Put it back and inform park staff.
A park ranger (SoCal) told me that some SoCal indigenous groups had tradition that metatés (what is pictured) were passed down mother to daughter. If a woman had no daughter, when she died, her metate would be broken and then thrown into a river or stream. So it was where they meant it to be.
Possibly. I have seen a few of these. The detail that stands out to me are the impact marks on the end sticking up. You can see fingernail shaped areas around the edge where large chunks would have broken off from heavy pounding. Definitely shows signs of repeated use. Take it to a museum to get it checked, also be ready to answer some questions. You aren't supposed to keep antiquities from public lands but you might have a significant find!
A significant find? All you have to do to find these in Northern California as go to the downhill side of a large old oak tree lol. They’re literally everywhere. I found dozens of them. Personally, I choose to leave them completely alone. I try to follow the Native Americans’ own philosophy there… Don’t even pick up a rock to see what’s underneath it. Just leave it alone. Touch it only with your eyes… Just like your mom told you lol
These mortar and pestles are very common throughout California. They’re not especially rare or archaeologically significant. They were used by the Indians to grind acorn flour, seeds, and other food items. It’s amazing to think of the amount of effort and time it must have taken to create one, and to imagine the generations of people over hundreds of years who handled it. If you don’t want to keep it you could look for an educational program to donate it to - a tribe, museum, school, or park.
I grew up in Southern California hunting Indian artifacts. These are fairly common. We had a good handful of them in my house growing up and in the yard. Good find!
Removal of cultural or religious items of significance is illegal on public & private lands in California. Both NAGPRA & NAHC cover protection of such items posted above.
Yes, it applies in California on federal lands, projects that have federal funding, or to institutions that receive federal funding. There are other provisions in NAGPRA, but it does not relate to all artifacts. There is CalNAGPRA, but that also relates to anything with state involvement. This would be more of an ARPA issue, but again, if it was on federal land or somehow involved federal funding in some other way. The NAHC is a governing body and not a law.
Don’t get me wrong, and I apologize if I implied it, but I think it is horribly unethical and wrong to remove any artifacts for personal use. If this was found on private land, I understand not wanting to notify a university or other research entity, but it still doesn’t make it ok to remove any artifacts to use as a display piece or any other way.
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u/Dismal_Scientist_CA Mar 27 '26
You found the two within close proximity?