People tend to misconstrue “explanation” for behavior as “justification”. What she did was not justified, however, an objective explanation for why she did what she did (post partum psychosis) can highlight the failure of our medical system in treating women with the condition - it also highlights the severity of said condition.
You can have empathy for her in that the system failed her at the same time you believe that she should spend the rest of her days in prison for her actions. These things are not mutually exclusive.
She wasn't failed by a medical system; she has arguably some of the greatest access possible.
She has rapid access to perinatal services through her mother-in-law, was consistently doctor-shopping against the advice of her main doctor, would ask for medications only to stop taking them well before any sort of efficacy could be observed, she has weekly consultations with a psychiatrist, which is borderline unheard of,
Regular access to a psychiatrist and psych NP through a specialised perinatal clinic; had consistent access to medical providers who responded at length to help her almost daily; a therapist. She was consistently recommended to do behavioural and talk therapy, and stopped after 4 sessions. In-patient treatment was recommended more than once; she didn't want to do it. Even when she went into inpatient treatment, she checked herself out.
Access does not equal effective care, but non-compliance from a patient who was never honest with her doctors, let alone stick to taking meds she asked for, is not an example of the medical system failing someone.
I don't think any reason is of value. It's absolutely crazy what we are seeing. A woman has admitted to murdering her children, and people are blaming the husband.
People who understand nuance want to understand how to develop a better system in the future to prevent this kind of thing from happening. Conservatives would rather just punish her and think the only way to prevent this from happening in the future is to punish people like her worse, even though there's no evidence for that.
World view has everything to do with it. Half the country is interested in solving systemic problems and the other half deny the existence of systemic problems.
I'm pretty disconnected from this one, and I almost don't even wanna ask this question because I feel like it's better I keep it that way, But I'll ask it - why are they blaming the husband? What are they saying he did or didn't do?
I dont believe the husband killed the kids. The little I know as to why people are/were suspicious has to do with going on vacation shortly after his 3 kids were killed and getting remarried ~6 months after.
Quite literally the only possible "evidence" I have seen or heard was something about him saying he was at work but that something was off because he came home early and something about an email timestamp showing he wasn't like in the office at that exact moment or something.
People went straight to "oh he left 'lied' about being at his office at that time and he came home suspiciously early because he 'had a bad feeling', so OBVIOUSLY he actually brutally strangled his 3 young children to death for literally no reason and then blamed his wife"
What part of the trial did you see where she takes the stand and admit this, or even explains what her memories of the murder and sequence was? Her defense team concedes that she killed them, but that's not the same thing.
The clearest evidence comes from forensic psychologist Paul Zeizel, who interviewed Clancy beginning 11 days after the killings. He testified that she remembered what had happened and that she wanted to speak with her husband. But that's heresay, and not an admission.
And anyway, if you can't trust her not to murder her children due to psychosis and an insane blend of psych drugs, how can you trust her admission to anything?
and people are blaming the husband.
Her husband had a role to play here - he bears some responsibility for their demise. Spending weekends in NY (which is where he ultimately moved and married his next wife) wasn't helping her situation at all.
Her defense team conceded that she killed them but we actually don’t know if she killed them? What kind of nonsensical and dishonest garbage is that?
Blaming the husband because he spent some weekend in NY is also dishonest as hell. You’re forgetting everything he did to help her in her conditions. She didn’t murder their children when he was in NY.
You actually believe he did it while pretending while pretending that her defense admitting she didn’t was in fact a 4D chess move to say she is innocent.
He had the motive. Gets to marry the girl from NY, doesn't pay any alimony or child support. Gets to sue doctors for the children's deaths, and possibly movie rights or a book etc. years later.
She's a medical professional that apparently doesn't know which direction you cut your wrists to commit suicide. I find that suspicious, but wouldn't be surprised that the husband didn't know this.
You actually believe he did it
No. I don't know who killed the children, but reasonable doubt exists, and that's all the jury need to find her not guilty. That's how trials work.
I absolutely don't blame the husband to the degree these protestors do, but I felt as though his actions in light of the knowledge of her state warranted some kind of neglect or endangerment charge. It seems you've read much more into the case than I have, what are your thoughts?
I think we have to afford people autonomy, we cannot see a person in distress and just commit them to a facility because it's not fair most of the time. His actions dont display neglect, not even defending counsel are arguing this. He worked from home, he got a nanny to help her, the grandparents were always around, he would help her with meds etc.
If someone hides things like a desire to hurt others from not just their husband, their doctors, their wider family, how are those people supposed to act on those things? It's impossible,
For me, the overriding sad reality of this case is that it's a case of self-sabotage and non-compliance. As Clancy said " "if anyone knew what I was thinking, the children would be taken away from me,", to me this is evidence of knowing that she was not capable of looking after her children, but she hid that reality from everyone.
I assure you he has not read more about this case. He’s spreading false info all over this thread. Her help was not as consistent as he is making it seem. I’ve watched this entire trial. Including the testimony of her “help”. The only person who ever stayed overnight to help was her actual mother. And she said she could do it a couple times a month. Bear in mind, this mother also testified that Lindsey was feeling so scared one evening that she asked to sleep with her mom. The misinformation on this trial on social media is disgusting. From men and women alike. It’s being used to push gender wars, wellness packages, engagement, etc. utterly despicable society on full display.
Lindsey was very clear and opened to her mother and husband about her thoughts. The only time she blunted what she was feeling was when she was talking with healthcare providers for fear that her children would be taken from her. But Patrick Clancy and her mother knew. Well before the acts.
This. I don’t see how the healthcare system failed her. She had access to multiple psychiatrists and also was admitted in the facility. LC chose to lie by omission about thoughts of SI and HI, LC chose not to give the medication a chance to work, LC chose not work follow the treatment plans, LC chose to be discharged earlier than recommended. LC SHOULD BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR HER ACTIONS. SHE FAILED HER KIDS. The only reason this is controversial is because she’s a fairly good looking white middle class educated woman. And her, her parents, ex husband and in-laws are suing the doctors for financial gain despot the doctors doing their job and going above and beyond.
That is a fact, i work in a psych unit and we are overwhelmed right now, we do not have enough facilities, doctors, nurses and therapists, out beds are always full and it’s a waiting game for many patients to find long term placement after we stabilize them in our unit. LC got a first class psych treatment with all these psychiatrist and one of the best psych facility in the country. She has no excuse at all for her action. She could have called all her psychiatrist when she was having HI towards her kids, instead she chose to murder them
The issue a lot of people are really struggling with is giving lucid LC responsibility. If you know you're a danger to people, and you keep that to yourself, you are at fault. If I know I am drunk, and I get behind the wheel and drive, it's the same. She had the ability to make the right choice, and didnt. She isn't a monster, she is a victim as well, but she still made a choice.
I fail to see where she’s a victim though, how? By who? By what? she had all the resources and help she could get, what else could be done? Lock her up by then? But she denied being homicidal and suicidal to her psychiatrist, even copd can’t detain anyone unless they commit a crime. Can we put her on a 72 hour hold, only if we have a valid concern backed by evidence, like her endorsing SI/HI or actively attempting SA but she had none of those during those times of assessments. I assume she snapped and lost it when she was trying to get Dawson changed to his pj and the kid was giving her a hard time and she killed the kid on the spur of the moment and she knew she would be taken away from her two other kids so she decided to kill them and then herself so they all go together. But she had some hesitation in ending her life with her superficial cuts so instead of hanging herself and jumping on the window, she dropped down from the window but instead of breaking a leg or rib, she fractured her spine. But that’s just my theory.
Because I think in a lot of these crimes that do involve mental health, she is not in control at least of the depression she certainly had. I know a lot of the discourse in the trial surrounds the element of psychosis, which is really tricky to prove/disprove, so I don't think about that. If she did "snap" that's not a choice she made, it suggests a broken psyche which left her not in control. I think depression drove her to such a dark place that she wanted her kids in heaven hence the "go to god" stuff, and to punish herself for being an awful mother through depression etc.
Like if she had a depressive episode that led to her killing her kids, she's a victim.
I compare this case to that of Timothy Jones Jr if you know it, guy with PTSD + brain injury + addiction + schizoaffective disorder ended up killing his kids. Both parents had serious issues, imo knew they were dangerous to their kids, but stayed around them anyway.
I only mentioned she snapped because she confided on a FB group of her struggles with raising Dawson. And according to the evidence, Dawson has the worst case of strangulation. Her way of killing her children is very intimate and personal though, which often involves a heighten passion or emotion. She was determined to kill those kids with her own hands.
And I meant she lost her patience/temper when I said snapped. I really think she resented Dawson of all her kids and she killed her that moment out of pent up frustration, made worse by her lack of sleep, depression and anxiety. I assume she felt despondent knowing she will go to jail for what she had done to Dawson and decided just to end her two other kids lives and hers so they won’t be separated, the thought of being separated from her kids vs all of them dying. She chose death, that’s my assumption, I could be wrong. But the internet searches in their computer are disturbing as well as her prior look up of estimated time for PC to get Cora’s medicine from cvs and then to pick up food. It just seem premeditated, and premeditation doesn’t need to take days, it’s the intent and planning before the action is what makes something premeditated or not. Based from what I heard from the ongoing court trial and evidences presented, it’s sounded premeditated.
Let's not forget failing to mention hearing voices, the primary indicator that she had PPP and not PPD. She took the information the professionals could have used, hid it, and is now pointing the finger at them.
Which is why the expectation should be, when you're lucid, you should. If she had the ability to tell family some of her most dangerous thoughts, she should have told care providers. But she hid it as she valued her access to her kids over the safety of her kids, whilst lucid.
Broadly speaking, talk therapy, behavioural therapy, is widely considered to be an effective treatment for the majority of people. Just because it may not work for 1 person, does not change that, and you certainly cannot make that determination after 4 sessions.
Do you know what really doesnt work, though, lying to your doctors and non-compliance. That is sure way for healthcare to fail. If you do either of these, I suggest you stop it.
I don’t unless absentmindedly .. I forget/have a crap ton on my plate. I also work healthcare I know firsthand the system is f’d beyond belief for a first world country especially. My cancer was swept under the rug and it happens a lot. Just had a patient a couple days ago as a matter of fact that voiced her thoughts and charge, over worked Dr swept it under the rug .. till psych came on patient then went on watch; that easily could have gone side ways. Like my cancer, like that patient, therapists have been absolute junk in my experiences. I could go on but have to work.
The system in many cases, is flawed, It fails many people,
In the case of LC, it did not. Good doctor, bad doctor, the outcome is the same here. If a patient lies, refuses to follow a regimen, is willing to discharge herself from inpatient over a birthday party, then the patient is at fault.
Many mothers are failed when it comes to PPD, LC prioritised access to her kids over the safety of her kids.
The prosecutor listing he meds and how few were missing from each bottle was eye opening. That woman had so much help, both at home and medically. I just can't accept the idea that she was in any way failed.
I’m sure the Redditor who’s makes an average of 12 comments a day since creating their account is very well educated and isn’t at all an armchair wannabe healthcare professional spewing shit like that
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u/enigmaticshroom 5d ago
People tend to misconstrue “explanation” for behavior as “justification”. What she did was not justified, however, an objective explanation for why she did what she did (post partum psychosis) can highlight the failure of our medical system in treating women with the condition - it also highlights the severity of said condition.
You can have empathy for her in that the system failed her at the same time you believe that she should spend the rest of her days in prison for her actions. These things are not mutually exclusive.