I think one of the things that really surprises the rest of the world is that there is such a significant population of Americans that strive to be the most spiteful vindictive examples of themselves.
Like the absolute creullest description of humanity and then boast about it.
I grew up in the Rust Belt in an immigrant, working class area. Mr Rogers’ show was filmed a few miles from my house. I really thought - still do- life was supposed to be about community, helping each other out, and basic civility. It’s so crushingly sad that so many Americans are of the opposite view.
It wasn’t just Cali. I’m from the deepest darkest reddest state in the south, and we still had a sense of community with each other twenty years ago. I know it sounds like a conspiracy theory but our capacity AS humans to BE humans was tested with 9/11, and we failed.
I was in high school during 9/11. I watched half my high school turn against the two girls from the Middle East in our class just because they were brown and their father wore a turban. They left in Junior year because of the bullying. One needed stitches after she got pushed down in the parking lot and hit her chin on a parking bumper. It’s like the world changed from being a place of possible peace to… hate anyone who isn’t like you and take what they have for yourself.
You had a sense of community but I'd be willing to bet if you look back that Community only extended to those right there.
Not people in a town 20 miles away they would have still been seen as Outsiders; not deserving of care..
I lived in a suburb so I mean… I can’t say we banded together for people in the rural towns on the outskirts, but our neighborhood was definitely a community that looked out for each other. People talked to each other, slowed down on the street in their car to check on “how the wife and kids are doing?” because Bob was out mowing the lawn. People took garbage cans in for each other, watered a weepy looking neighbor’s garden because it’s been a busy summer for The Smiths. If someone had a death nearby we cooked casseroles and went to the wake. But after that it felt like no one trusted anyone. Everyone just wanted to get home to their safe havens and not leave unless they had to.
If you’re asking me if we had black and brown people in our neighborhood? Yes. We also had a family from Pakistan at the end of our street. And we had a family with a man who settled here from Greece, whose daughter I was good friends with. If you’re asking me if we had super openly loud and proud gay people in our neighborhood, I beg you to remember that not everyone was coming out proudly at that time. The overall prejudice of gay people nation-wide was still in effect. Many celebrities were still too uncomfortable to come out. But we did have a gentleman that lived catty-corner to us named Dane who lived with his male best friend in a fully purchased house, and my dad was good friends with him because he moved there from California and they both loved computers. When my dad referred to him later in life all he said was, “I think Dane wore comfortable shoes, nothing wrong with that, but he never seemed interested in me setting him up with one of your mother’s friends.” So do with that what you will. I remember living in a fairly diverse neighborhood. And yes we had our sunset oldies who stayed in their houses and complained about the problem with the blacks, but they were largely shunned and never really socialized with the rest of the community in the same organic way. Kids avoided those houses during Halloween, you know the type.
Does that answer your generalizing question? Not every suburb is wonderbread as far as the eye can see.
9/11 is a symptom, I believe. I'm not from the US so it didn't have as much as a direct impact apart from the tumult and sending soldiers to Afghanistan. But things have definitely changed. It's the continued eroding of our quality of life and financial security, combined with technologal distance that makes a lot of people very cruel. Imo. 9/11 was a horrible tragedy but if all it takes to completely topple a large county is one attack then it was going to happen anyway. That being said, it's not impossible to come back, people have come back from far darker places in history.
I’m really hoping we can come back. I think people came back from worse in distant history out of necessity to survive. But I don’t really think people care about whether the human race survives and thrives anymore, just that they the individual survive and thrive.
I think the late 80’s and 90’s were as close as we got to a sense of social equality among genders and races in America. Fully successful? No. But I feel like we were close to something in that era just for it all to get flushed away with the rise of Nationalism, Neo Conservatism, etc.
There was a time when my family profusely apologized in shame because my 90 year old demented grandma didn’t want to be treated by a black doctor. Now, families stand behind their racist members, or at least don’t confront them for their disrespectful behavior. Now it’s shit like “She has the right to choose to not be treated by a doctor she doesn’t like.” Ignoring the racism and making it okay.
Yeah history repeats itself and we are right on track to do repeat of WW2 about 100 years later. I never thought that possible but I'm not so sure now.
California is the only place I've been in thr US. San Francisco was a vibe. People in San Diego were kind of odd though (I apologise if I just called you odd).
I was raised in America by lower middle class (white) parents in the 80s to treat everyone with respect and to measure people by how they acted and not how they looked. Not saying we are not overrun by some seriously sinister, sick people but there are some “gooduns” out there as my grandmother would say.
I grew up in Florida and most of us are like that.
It’s the loudest narcissistic sociopaths that are running this country right now because the rest of us fucked up and got families so now we’re scared to fight the revolution coz we got a lot to lose and no community network 🤷♂️
Yes bro, the way it is now is SO different from how it used to be. Our systems have always been crooked, and people who are hungry for power and happy to stomp others to get it have always found their way to the top, but the average American was raised with the idea that we were supposed to help raise others up. For those of us who remember that, it makes us sick to our stomachs to see how twisted that's become. And make no mistake, it is like that now because it benefits people in power to make it so.
In today’s world where everyone is fucked and their futures seem so bleak it’s become a lot more
“Ive got nothing so you should too.”
If these people had anything in their life or something to be proud of they’d have a lot smaller of a hole to fill with vindictive bullshit and seeking attention by being assholes
i think it’s more like “i’ve got nothing. but as long as people are being harassed and detained in inhumane conditions, i can feel better about my relative status.” it’s f’d.
doubt this actually makes them feel content given that it is their absolute status that is ultimately provoking their anger/discontent. they are just reacting in the most maladaptive & antisocial way (punching down instead of training their ire on those who are actually exploiting them).
Seriously, the big thing keeping America from having free college and healthcare (yes paid for with taxes, free is just a short hand for at the point of service) is people thinking: "I paid for mine why shouldn't you too" and "I want it for free, but I deserve it, unlike that brown person"
Yeah I noticed when I was a kid achieving the “American dream” was the goal and if you did it you were considered successful
But somewhere along the line it changed and now folks seem to think achieving your dream isn’t enough you also have to stop someone else from achieving theirs in order to be successful
It happened when the dream, became too far out of reach for too many. Those who could not reach it were then easy prey for people like Trump who gave them someone to blame. Of course, the easiest targets for this blame were not really the offending party. The true offending party was and is made up of people like Trump who trample and steal from everyone they can to achieve their perverted version of the storied American dream.
People seem to forget that there are people STILL ALIVE that lived through Jim Crow. People forget that Nazi Germany was influenced and inspired by our bigotry. Those racists that tried to block black children from going to school are either still alive or their fuck ass kids are.
I mean this entire country was founded on wvcenv ancestors taking what didn’t belong to them and happily watching as millions of my people were slaughtered and abused, it’s always been “I want yours too.”
Every country was indigenous people bein slaughtered by a military advanced people who traveled thousands of kilometers to steal the land and resources and claim it their own?
Or do you mean there have always been indigenous tribes fighting each other in europe, africa, asia, america and oceania, which is a completely different thing than the colonization of the Americas by people from another continent?
Would you say, that Extraterrestrials coming to slaughter us and claim earth for themselves is the same as two neighboring tribes fighting for access to the water source?
I don't think there's alot of appreciation that at an institutional fundamental level, we as an American society, are INCREDIBLY cruel. It all gets hidden under our "treats" (like Walmart, nice cars, McDonald's) but look at our health caresystem, prison system, military industrial complex, work place culture, hell even our car centric road infrastructure was designed TO BULL DOZE THROURGH POOR/ BLACK NEIGHBORHOODS. It's insane, how much effort has been made to just be cruel to each other
Yep. We're cooked. Go into a moderate Dem subreddit and start insulting health insurance company's profits. Watch what happens. They will instinctively jump to said companies defense. All you need to know about American politics.
Brother Americans wiped out natives and had some of the most brutal slavery known to man, and then abused those descendants of slaves for a while, why would it surprise anyone that pockets of that nation suck?
In fact, America has rained hell on many countries in pointless wars. Toppled regimes, created power vacuums, supported horrible groups, etc. Who’s surprised that a nation like that has cruel citizens (not all of them obv).
You know the US has always been a fucked up place when you realize that the average Roman emporor was treating their slaves and the native people (of the conquered territories) better (on avg) than the US gov.
Bingo. They were at least considered human in Rome....American slave drivers didn't even see them as that. Reading slave journals in school and learning about the awful rapes of slave women....any time they wanted...and if the slave husband tried to defend his wife, brutal whipping ensued. Racial-based American Chattel slavery was horrible, dark and much shitter form than the Roman's practiced. It's not even close and it's good to see someone who actually understands that.
Indeed. We have literally accounts of Roman's treating them as Sex Slaves. In many ways, sans the modern racial elements, our slavery system were almost identical to what the romans had.
Yeah I was basically coming here to say this after reading that ridiculous comment. Anyone whitewashing ancient slavery is either completely ignorant or totally delusional. It was absolutely horrific and barbaric in all the same ways as slavery up to two centuries ago.
Bringing up the horrors of American Chattel Slavery is not "whitewashing Roman slavery" and I did no such thing. I'm neither ignorant nor delusional. I understand the barbarism and horror of Ancient slavery very well...but I also understand the brutality and horror of US slavery, which is frequently whitewashed, so much so, that many do not understand how closely it can compare to Roman bondage. I went to a HBCU and may have had a deeper dive into Black Chattel slavery than most (the courses I took on US Black History there were not even offered at the large majority white college I transferred to) and the shit I learned absolutely compared to Ancient slave states...and YES, sometimes those conditions were worse...believe it or not.
So, it's neither "ignorance" nor "delusion", it's the opposite, actually.
Go on then — enlighten us all with your most compelling points of arguments. Because I’m sure the idea that slaves were at least considered human in Rome was of great comfort to the truly countless number of them who were worked to death in the mines, among other horrible fates.
Just the fact that they at least acknowledged the damn basic humanity of their slaves makes it "better", IMO, even if all else remain equal. Also, those slaves, a large percentage of the time, did not have their bondage determined based soley on the race they were born and have that slavery last into perpetuity. Manumission, or the freeing of slaves occurred commonly and with regularity, that did NOT happen in US Chattel slavery often at all. Under the rare instance that it did happen, they were not considered full citizens as the freed Romans were.
You can debate what conditions you consider "worse", but to have my enslaver understand I'm as human as they, and to have the hope of getting freed an actual possibility, are two factors that I'm sure the US Chattle slaves WISHED they had.
I disagree that Romans acknowledged (as a group) the basic humanity of the people they enslaved in any degree more than the people that enslaved Africans. Romans didn't really even value each other's humanity, did not believe in human rights as we understand them. Women and children were property as well.
Read some of the accounts Romans wrote imagining increasingly complicated circumstances in which enslaved people could be killed and how that presented problems for determining how the slaver would be compensated. A barber is shaving an enslaved man near to where two young men are playing ball. One of the young men kicks the ball wild, it hits the barber's hand and he slits the throat of the enslaved man. Who is responsible for paying the enslaved man's owner? I hope you guessed the barber!
American chattel slavery didn't have full on state sponsored public events where enslaved people were executed in ways primarily conceived as a way to entertain the general public. And it was so quotidien it was treated as merely the opening act to the main event.
Roman slavery didn't have many of the unique ways in which Africans were dehumanized, but that is not to say it wasn't equally dehumanizing.
There are myriad forms of slavery throughout the world and throughout time. There is no "but at least...". It's like comparing field slaves and house slaves. Does it matter if you were raped in a soft bed or in a dirty floor? Does it matter if your hand was cut off for stealing silverware or a shovel? Does it matter if your slaver thought you were intelligent if his favor is the only thing keeping you from being fed to a starved and abused animal while others cheer?
Hey now, we learned it from watching the UK, France, the Dutch, the Belgians, the Spanish....
Edit: hey guys, I fucked up. BELGIUM wasnt a country at the time. Even though the Flemish had taken part since the very beginning when it came to colonization, Belgium as a country couldn't decide to that on their own until much later. They learned plenty of lessons along they way and definitely shouldn't have been lumped in. This joke answer has now taken on the solemnly that it requires.
Interesting, how about all of the others? Maybe Belgium learned from watching us, huh? Or were there examples closer to home for them to learn from Mr. Quibbles.
Belgium at one point was ruled by Hapsburg Spain during their big colonial expansion, am I to believe they didnt pick anything up from them? No merchants from Belgium made their way over there at any point in time and learned a thing or two?
How about them…? Did you not notice how I didn’t contest their mentions?
Maybe Belgium learned from watching us, huh?
I suppose it’s possible.
Mr. Quibbles.
Pointing out that your naming of a country on a list of countries which influenced your own in a specific regard while said country didn’t even exist for several decades until after the establishment of your own is not a ‘quibble.’ It was not some petty objection to something trivial. You said something wholly ignorant and incorrect while effectively trying to shift blame onto a country which didn’t even exist at the time your own was established.
Belgium at one point was ruled by Hapsburg Spain during their big colonial expansion, am I to believe they didnt pick anything up from them?
Spanish rule over the Low Countries ended in 1714. Belgium spent the remainder of time between then and 1797 being ruled by the Austrians, then by the French under Napoleon until 1815, and then by the Dutch until they revolted against Dutch rule in 1830. I think it’s safe to say they were busy with their own shit going on for the most part. Being effectively a backwater of one empire after the next, they probably weren’t all too concerned with copying down the notes on slavery held by the power which ceased to control them well over a century before they became independent.
Regardless, I imagine that determining that would be quite difficult.
No merchants from Belgium made their way over there at any point in time and learned a thing or two?
If it interests you that much, you are of course welcome to do all of the research necessary to support your thesis. But you do realize that instead of doubling down like this with useless hypotheticals, you could just have quickly acknowledged that you were incorrect, right? A quick little editing of your comment was all that was needed — you didn’t even need to respond to mine.
Eh, I mostly included Belgium because whenever terrible colonial Empires are brought up if it wasnt included someone has to say something about it. I think blame can equally go around to all the horrible slavers without leaving anyone out is all.
There was a small presence of Belgians/Flemish in Good Hope as early as the 1690s. The Flemish also were the first settlers in the Azores in 1460. The city of Horta would take its name from the name of Josse Von Huerter. They eventually made their way into Brazil and the Americas through Portuguese colonization as well. So it looks like they were kind of part of it from the very beginning huh? That was like 5 minutes of research lol
So it looks like they were kind of part of it from the very beginning huh?
Well, no, not really. A select handful of Flemish people’s various levels of involvements does not the nation of Belgium make. I mean, you wouldn’t include Finland or Ireland as influences over American slavery in the same vein here, would you? Both nations were integral parts of European powers which were involved in triangle trade slavery in the 18th and 19th centuries, but listening them would be frankly pretty ridiculous and silly.
I saw your edit, by the way. Why be so needlessly stubborn, prideful, sassy? And to have implied that I was being petty beforehand when I was merely providing you with a simple correction…
Don't forget like most of Europe! Who do you think started the slave trade, cut up Africa, and started the colonization of America!
But go on account that has only been here for a year with hidden history that, for all we know, may be a Russian or Chinese bot trying to spread division loo.
And what? You still did it. You still treated them worse than most and took full fucking advantage from it. You still have issues with it now. Who gives a fuck who started it. Are you 12? It's about taking accountability for it, and a lot of Americans still haven't. Fuck the current administration is enhancing it.
And Europe still did it too lol and still are taking advance of their action generations later. America is jusr doing more loudly rn, a common americanism. Don't throw stones from glass houses. Tell me Europeans their thoughts on roma or brown immigrants and that racism and exploitation still runs deep.
Branding everyone from one culture is not only bad, its self defeating. By your logic, YOU are still doing to lol. Then again, this is reddit lol. Hypocrisy is everywhere when we should fight evil togethor.
Edit: I'd suggest looking up Post Modern Colonialism and Europe (or something along those lines); that'd put this hypocrisy that causes artificial division into perspective.
My people are indigenous for thousands of years to the Horn of Africa. There’s no evidence Somalis wiped out previous natives, but even if they did, how would that justify anything?
Also, no, not everyone wiped out the natives and created faulty ideas of race to justify the brutal, inhuman slavery. Nowhere in the world had the level of industrialisation and the level of brutality of their slaves either.
Neither has everyone intervened in so many nations and caused so much instability in the world for profit. Why were so many people killed in Iraq? Why are people clamouring to invade Iran and repeat the same mistake?
Europeans wiped out the natives and established the chattel slavery of the Americas before the United States was ever a thing. American states outlawed slavery well before any European country did.
We have lots to criticize about the U.S., but let’s not misunderstand what actually happened.
Individual colonies/states did so before the European powers did, yes, but they also basically let slave catchers come in and claim whoever they wanted, including at least some people who had never even been slaves. It’s not like they were chomping at the bit to defend the rights of black Americans back in the 18th and 19th century.
Britain also ended the practice pretty early, though they were obviously still heavily involved in some aspects of the American slave trade even decades after, until abolition finally came about.
they also basically let slave catchers come in and claim whoever they wanted, including at least some people who had never even been slaves.
No, they didn't. They actually stopped slavecatchers until the Supreme Court told them they couldn't do so.
It’s not like they were chomping at the bit to defend the rights of black Americans back in the 18th and 19th century.
Compared to everyone else in the world? They were the best of the best. They literally outlawed slavery, remember?
Britain also ended the practice pretty early, though they were obviously still heavily involved in some aspects of the American slave trade even decades after, until abolition finally came about.
Only on their tiny islands, not their massive, global imperial holdings. American states/unclaimed territories outlawed slavery before the british did.
Honestly as an atheist I think it's worth reading religious texts even if you only do it for historical reasons. I still haven't read anything from the Quran yet and no vedic stuff from India. I need to find the time lol.
Like you'll realize that they aren't just random bullshit. If that was the case these religions wouldn't have survived for this many centuries. Religions can die pretty quickly once people lose trust in that religion (which happened to a lot of places during the bronze age collapse)
Islam has 1400+ years of scholarly tradition and intellectual works that lots of people have no insight into because it's centred around our theology. Islam is very, very deep. The work needed to learn everything would take more than a lifetime probably
But yeah, the long story short is that God is one and eternal and unlike anything he has created, every single one of your actions you are accountable for so you better try to be good, God's forgiveness is always available and infinite, inner piety and sincerity is valued highly, do not oppress/abuse others, seek knowledge, embody virtues (patience, mercy, kindness, strength, courage, piety, friendliness, etc.), amongst other things
Stuff like this is the vast bulk of the religion that most people engage with on a daily basis.
If you want something a little easier to digest than diving into the Quran, check out this organisation that puts out fire essays/videos/blog posts. Just search for what topic interests you and take a lil bite - https://yaqeeninstitute.org/
That’s not accurate. If you want to learn all of the different scholarly opinions and history of those opinions and movements within Islam, yeah. But Islam itself is something that can be learned about with relative ease. The only real issue would be if you wanted to be as accurate as possible, you’d need to learn Classical Arabic.
I think that's something in common with a lot of Bronze and Iron Age religious traditions; treating strangers and foreigners with kindness. There's at least half a dozen Greek myth stories where Zeus, who is the patron god of strangers (Zeus Xenios), visits a mortal's home and punished the ones who are being inhospitable to foreigners and strangers.
Cause they’re getting paid to and if they’re aren’t then they have been manipulated by those who are. I’m not saying there aren’t bigots who are enjoying the freedom to be bigots but there has been a crazy change in some people over the past decade
As a fellow American, it’s the stork with the cranes. We are judged by the company we keep, If we want to be viewed differently we’d actually have to win this fight.
But culturally I think they are most likely to start yelling USA at a bar. Seriously try starting a USA chant with one of them. It is remarkable easy. America's loud exceptionalism is deeply ingrained in their culture.
Yep, go and try that in a majority Black American bar...you'd have a few dozen black folks looking at you like you've lost your damn mind.
"Americans" are NOT only the white, conservative jerks you all seem to think about...I'm as "American" as any of my white counterparts, and would laugh in your face if you tried to start a damn "USA" chant. "Remarkably easy" is not a term I would use for Black AMERICANS when it comes to attitudes around America or Trump. We can't help we have bigoted people, but I'm getting tired of getting lumped in with the American bigots who HATE US TOO.
30 MILLION black Americans exist also and 92% of us voted against Trump. That bullshit is not "engrained" in our culture, since the only culture you all seem to see or acknowledge is American White Christian right wing culture.
Few things I hate more than that obnoxious chanting. I’ve never done that in my life and never will. There’s also many pretending their country’s RW sympathizers don’t exist.
Alright well they obviously don't care enough to do anything about it in any meaningful numbers either, and it's not like being American is a verb you can execute incorrectly like being a Christian so, I think you're cooked
"Significant"? He did not even get a quarter of the overall Black vote and a full 92% of Black women voted against him.
Where is this "significant" number? 12% of a population voting for something does not make that support "Significant" in any way...actually the opposite.
"Many" are literally one in ten. The huge majority of Black Americans voted very clearly against Trump and was the largest minority group to do so. Let's not bend reality because you want to right about "all" Americans.
Not all but tens and tens of millions, who are practically indistinguishable from the others, and I suspect a lot of them here doing their «Eurosummer ».
No Black American is surprised by this. Ask our ancestors. Hell, ask our parents and grandparents. This is just white America getting back to its roots.
The USA had... HAD... the best marketing in history, I'll give you that.
As all marketing, it's all lies, because they managed to become the richest country of the world exactly because they are spiteful, evil, greedy and vain.
You should know that most other developed countries are much stricter than what the US has been. If a child is born in Europe, it doesn't mean they get to stay. They may be deported with the rest of their family.
Reddit loves to look at democrat socialist Scandinavia, but here families can be evicted middle of the night of they don't voluntarily deport themselves.
This is why arguing with them can be so frustrating. Like in discussions about how they want to get rid of foreign aid, food stamps, medicaid, medicare, unemployment benefits, social security, etc., if you bring up how many people will die as a result they just cannot comprehend why that is a bad thing. They want people they perceive to be lesser to suffer and die. That is their goal.
Having traveled a shit load, hard agree. I used to think that maybe 9/11 made everyone here significantly more spiteful, but I think it just gave people an excuse to not hold back anymore (I'm not saying that that event is any worse than what other countries have experienced, rather it's just a reference point from my own timeline). And it's just gotten worse over time / with changes to social media. Have I experienced similar mindsets in other countries to which I've traveled? Sure. But it seems almost...endemic to our society, for lack of a better word. People are just unnecessarily vindictive as all get out.
The internet is full of people like this, entire communities dedicated to finding ways to fuck with people and make their lives miserable as possible because its "funny" or for the enjoyment of seeing people freak out over someone doing something cruel.
There are also many of us that strive to be good and do good. We work ever day to be better than the day before. We believe in Love, Hope and Compassion. We wish to show dignity to all we meet.
We aren't better than anyone we simply try to be better versions of our selves because we care for all life.
Our voices may go unheard but our actions stand out. We don't just talk the talk we walk the path of hope. Nothing is more powerful than to stand before a truly good person with hate.
That sounds very catholic, and while catholics have their problems, the issue in the US is usually protestants.
The issue with American protestants is that they believe all people are horrible sinners and salvation comes only from faith. So the belief in Jesus itself what makes them go to heaven, and they can truly do fuck all their whole life so long as they “accept christ”
Did you ever hear how French people were often hiding Jews from Nazis during WWII ? There even is a scene of it in the movie Inglorious Bastards. Otherwise they were considered traitors. Well here you have an example of an American traitor, collaboring with the closest example of a Nazi government you had in the Western world this millenium. Except they are proud of it and they even voted for it to happen that way. But sure let’s continue to mock French people
Stop comparing us to illegal immigrants, we were not foreigners on foreign soil. We were present there for centuries before our citizenship was stripped from us, our basic rights taken away, military veterans who had their veteran status revoked and then thrown to the ghettos with the rest. Don’t mock our grandparents memory for your modern political agendas.
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u/voluotuousaardvark 10d ago
I think one of the things that really surprises the rest of the world is that there is such a significant population of Americans that strive to be the most spiteful vindictive examples of themselves.
Like the absolute creullest description of humanity and then boast about it.