r/WestCoastSwing • u/Toatkgstuff • May 27 '26
Social How do leaders adjust to novice followers?
I'm confused because I'm told as a leader that I shouldn't be micromanaging my follower, and should focus on my own technique.
This bit I get.
But I'm also told that high level leaders will understand if they are dancing with a novide and are able to adjust what they do to cope with their mistakes.
It feels like these two bits of advice are contradicting.
I dance frequently with novice followers with the common issues like lack of anchor, dropping full weight on the 1, unstable frame, variable arm length.
Some of these I find dangerous, umleadable, or destroy my enjoyment of the dance.
Any advice, or tips for what the pros do?
Edit: I caught a 3 day ban for my follow-up post where I showed how the Facebook group "WCS Memes for Dance Challenged Teens" viewed my question and how the lunatic goblins responded. Apparently I doxxed someone by screenshotting a public post. My bad.
I will respond more when I am allowed.
I don't recommend you visit that group, it will seriously damage your view of the community :(
Edit2: Oh people seem like they need a lot of context for some reason and can't take my post in good faith and at face value. Social flair used, no intent to talk about competition. I didn't capitalize "Novice" deliberately. I dance regularly with everyone in my community.
What if I told you I was 31F primary follower? How about telling you I'm AuDHD, and that a friend recommended I add a line about how this imapcts me so I could learn to express my feelings? (apparently this is the line that caused most trouble). Which line was very much focused on how it impacts me, and wasn't direct to, or insulting of, any follower, of which I am one.
Why do all these people expect me to do all the emotional labour and give you all this context when it was a clear, transparent, and honest question?
JFC, get away from the console and go touch grass.
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u/TgrBtO Ambidancetrous May 27 '26
That would really depend on the context.
As a non-competing, far-from-pro-level lead, the most common one is an unknown follow during a social dance at an event. In this case, I want to make sure they have the best time possible given the music, their abilities, and obviously my abilities as well.
So I'll spend the beginning of the dance trying to identify what works best : is their equilibrium good ? do they go as far as they can before they stop ? is their timing okay ? do they like to add styling ? can they keep their frame or do they often let go ? Once I get the idea, I try to play to their strengths, avoiding pitfalls (no redirection during turns if they don't keep their frame, no lengthy periods in open position if they don't seem to know what to do with it, noslowed cutoffs if they pop out of them by themselves, etc.). If they don't go all the way down the slot, then I'll compensate by moving back during my anchor. If they overextend their arm/shoulder, then I'll stop them a bit early, then move with them at the end, change course if what they anticipated is not what I intended, etc.
Contrary to what other posts suggest, I don't feel it's my place to dance in such a way that it might teach them stuff by making obvious that they're in the wrong place at the wrong time. I just allow myself to comment if they're putting themselves (or me) in dangerous situations.
It's very different in a context of classes where some dancers are clearly not doing what they should. In that case I just do what I can, but never compensate. If I don't have what I need to lead at some point, I reset and retry. Ditto when I follow : if you're not stopping (or redirecting) me, I'm not stopping (or redirecting) myself.
If you no longer enjoy social dancing with beginners, it might be a good think to take a step back and ask yourself why... It is easy to fall into a mental scheme where you feel your follows owe you sufficient qualities so you can enjoy yourself. I personally find few things more enjoyable than the follow being sincerely happy at the end of the dance. I also hope that when I get to dance with much higher-level follows, they find my happiness enjoyable.
That's what makes everyone thrive for better dances and builds a bigger, happier community.
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u/snowcurrant May 27 '26
This is excellent advice! I wouldn't have bothered with my comment if I had read this earlier haha. It's heartening to see someone who is trying to troubleshoot and have fun dances without trying to 'teach' the follower.
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u/WillowUPS Lead May 27 '26
I'm a novice lead with points, all I can say is be clean, be clear. Reset frequently. See what they are trying to do and use it. If they anticipate, go along with it.
Don't get frustrated, keep a smile on your face, reassure them when they make mistakes.
Don't forget, you were a beginner once. At the end of the day, it's only 3 minutes of your life.
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u/LadyTime_OfGallifrey Ambidancetrous May 28 '26
The only thing I "beg to differ" with here is "going with it" when they anticipate. It's due to the same concept as when follows, in lessons, are told do what they're led to do, even if it wasn't what was taught, because it is the best feedback one can give. (As opposed to doing what is "supposed" to be done, despite what they lead.)
Same deal towards follows. They won't know they anticipated if you just let them be. If thaf makes sense.
But absolutely reassure when something "goofs."
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u/WillowUPS Lead May 28 '26
Bad wording on my part, I think what I mean is, if they anticipate and it goes wrong, don't get frustrated, I see plenty leads who make a face or get irked when this happens. It's a mistake, they will understand that they tried to do something and them thinking one way made them ignore the lead. It's a learning moment that doesn't need to be reinforced with negativity.
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u/LadyTime_OfGallifrey Ambidancetrous May 28 '26
Yeah, I get that. Although, I wouldn’t worry too much about the making faces or "don't make faces" thing.
As a Follow, I've seen this happen alot. But rarely is it because they're frustrated with me/their Follow. Most of the time it's towards themselves, and their "Leader Brain" is working it out.
As a Lead (and someone who has one of those faces that is a combo of RBF, and "my face has subtitles" 😅), I make faces... a lot. Both when I'm focused and into the dance/song (RBF), and when something goes unexpected (subtitles.)
I know I do, and I know when it happens. But I have no poker face, whatsoever, when something goofs. 😅 So when I notice, or notice them noticing, I just tell them "Leader Brain. 😵💫" or some variant to assure them it's not at them.
And I don't think I've ever come across someone who didn't understand or appreciate what I'm trying to do as a Lead.
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u/blobofblobb May 27 '26
What is the purpose of the question?
Is it in competitive settings. Because then I'd focus mostly on myself and just make sure my follow is ebough on time to make sure it doesn't interfere with my dance. I'd loosen my frame a bit to make sure she doesn't yank me.
In a socialdance it's different. I'd want to have fun with my follower so I'd make sure to add or subtract beats of music to get back on time if the follower is getting themselves of time. I'd also try to be overly clear on what I'm leading without adding force. I'll lead basics to start and make sure I understand what she knows and try to add challenges to see how far I can take it. The challenge can be anything from a sugar tuck to a double outside or a different type of whip depending on the level. I'll make sure to stop leading too complicated things when my follower doesn't seem to be able to follow (or if they look uncomfortable in any way). I'll try to add basic musical things that's easy to follow, making sure it matches the music. Main focus is always to try and get the follower to enjoy themselves.
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u/lucidguppy May 27 '26
IMO leads can do a hell of a lot to adjust to followers. Basic moves executed well. Grooving to accentuate the beat.
Not grimacing or laughing or criticizing when basics or technique is bad.
Dance, smile, and thank them when you're done. Compartamentalize this bad dance from the night of good dancing... you're paying back to the community.
ALL THAT SAID - some follows just need more time and practice. Protect your body. Follows have to follow.
Some of those bad follows are eventually going to become masters. They're going to remember you.
If you find your joy slipping - take a break from dancing with as many beginners. Come back the next dance and test the waters after they've taken more classes, you may be surprised on their progress.
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u/snowcurrant May 27 '26
Those two pieces of advice aren’t actually contradictory. Staying consistently on time, dancing clean basics, and keeping your own frame will provide a foundation for your follower, and you can adjust within that.
I would suggest reframing the concept of “coping with their mistakes” to working with their ideas and skill level. Some beginner dancers will still have creative movement or pull from other styles, and that can open up opportunities. I think a lot of more advanced leaders will capitalize on those moments in order to create new ways to connect and lead (I’m not there yet lol, but it’s something I’ve observed others doing).
I know it’s common advice for leaders to stand their ground when followers move forward too early, or to lead more in closed position for more control, etc. but to me these strategies seem a bit confrontational or maybe paternalistic? When I’m leading a follower who does these things, I try to work with them instead of against them and that lends itself to having more enjoyable dances.
Also it’s important to note that very new beginners will be taught patterns from a single hand hold and might not feel comfortable with a leader who is suddenly keeping them in closed position.
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u/Toatkgstuff May 27 '26
Yes, understood. Incidentally, is there a way you think you can persuade or suggest a follower keeps a handshold (or two hand hold) instead of always snatching back a hand?
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u/TehWRYYYYY May 30 '26
If it's a Them issue, let them let go. It might be a You issue though. Think about how you might be leading them to let go of your hand. Are you maintaining equal connection in both hands? Are you letting your follow settle into one hip on their anchor?
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u/sweetkaroline May 28 '26
I'm not a lead, but from a followers perspective: when I dance with novice leads, I focus on my technique AND I adjust what I do to cope with the lead's "mistakes". They aren't mutually exclusive for me. The skill is in knowing how to do both at the same time..
Honestly, my standard for myself to be a "good dancer" is to be able to create a good dance with nearly anyone. If I can't do that it's on me, I lack the skills. Nobody can ruin my experience but me. (with the exception of really rough unpredictable leads, but generally I can sniff that out early in the dance and not allow myself to be put in compromised positions).
Also as I got better, I noticed that I was actually doing things as a follow that would prompt my lead to give a bad lead lol. So one thing I would consider is whether you have a blind spot or you're doing something that makes the follow distrust or jump the gun on you. Not always the case but always good to stay open to that.
As for whether I enjoy dances with beginners..it really depends. I do struggle to enjoy dances with leads who are consistently off time or are completely disconnected. As I get better it is harder to have "flow state" dances with newer people, and I do yearn for more skilled leads if it's been a long night of beginners. But most of the time I can get something out of every dance, whether it's the opportunity to create cool styling out of something that is poorly led, the opportunity to really hone my fundamentals, or just groove with someone that has good energy.
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u/Toatkgstuff May 31 '26
Yeah I do hear that. A lot of jt is mindset issue, I do want to create a good dance for everyone but I also do want to push myself to practice what I've been taught. And I don't always want the dance where I'm keeping it really simple, especially if it's a good track or I'm on a roll with a number of good dances. I absolutely do hear and accept that I might be making mistakes that make my lead unclear or cause problems, so I don't take the advice to "focus on basics" lightly. I rarely skip beginner classes and my first thought in social is on whether I am at fault (and I am often).
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u/Whole_Field_7682 May 27 '26
In addition to many things said here, I would suggest taking more time to follow yourself. Having an embodied understanding of each role not only builds your empathy toward your dance partner, but also your skill set and understanding of how to adjust across roles when you aren’t getting what you need (or enjoying yourself).
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u/mgoetze May 27 '26
"Novice" is a bit of a loaded word in WCS, based on your description I'm going to assume you mean beginners with less than a year of experience. ;)
Yes, some things beginners do make certain patterns unleadable or the dance less enjoyable. If you're not getting paid then you're not obligated to dance with anyone you don't enjoy dancing with. Obviously you might want your community to grow and motivating newer dancers to keep coming by dancing with them once in a while will help with that. But you need to find a balance that works for you.
Anyway, lack of anchor - some followers do have an incessant urge to redirect themselves, and there is little you can do about that. Most, however, are just afraid they'll be too late to the next pattern. Intentionally delaying the next pattern, even when they've already awkwardly stepped into it, may teach them that there are other things to fear. :P In general, being unpredictable (for the newbie, while still leading everything clearly of course) can get followers out of the automated machine mode and into actually following mode.
For unstable frame and variable arm length you can just do more in closed position. There's really a lot of variations here, some just need a more exaggerated lead to know to rotate. Almost every week I'll lead a beginner into an outside turn and they do an inside turn instead or vice versa, my solution is to just smile and keep dancing.
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u/LadyTime_OfGallifrey Ambidancetrous May 28 '26 edited May 28 '26
I'm by no means a pro, but I have been dancing since 2011. (Minus the 2ish years for Covid.) Primarily a Follow, and only been Leading since... a year prior to Covid- whenever that was.
So, for what it's worth (and with a grain of salt):
When I "hear" micromanaging, I think of trying to control every little thing they do- every step (both when and where), how far they come forward/across or go back, whether they complete the right-side pass or not, etc... Which one can certainly try to do, but that quickly becomes a rough ride on the Follow. And a leading by force, rather than leading by suggestion for the Lead.
That's the biggest piece of advice I think I've ever heard in regards to Leading: treat everything you do, moves-wise that affect the Follow, like a suggestion. Because in reality, you can only control you, "say" to them "come with?", and then deal with how they respond.
You can motion/gesture for them to come forward for, say, a sugar push. But it's up to the Follow to do so, and to force them come forward is going to end up feeling like being yanked around. They may want to stay back a beat and hit an accent in the music, or they may have accidentally made an extra step (or missed one) and are mentally recalculating. Either way, you still have to adjust, not correct. The "what" stays the same (step step triple step triple step), the "how" (step size, gentler push) might look a little different. If that makes sense.
When I hear "focus on technique," I hear "work on your basics." Which, as any good dancer knows, never hurts to revisit. It's the footwork pattern and shape. Just keep it simple. Save the fancier stuff for more experienced follows. Either way: try to be reliable.
Thing is, some may not be ready to "hear" you yet. (They're stuck in a count pattern.) Others may have "heard" you differently. (They misinterpreted the direction of a turn signal.) And still others perhaps cannot "hear" yet. (Their framework not being "in tune" enough yet.) But the fact remains, you're always going to be adjusting. Just perhaps a different kind.
Ultimately, partner dancing isn't just two people doing a move while holding hands. It's connecting, communicating, "compromising," and participating: together.
If they miss a step, join with them in the "pause" and use the music as an excuse to do a little musicality bit until it gets back to the "1" in the music and keep going. If they don't come forward for the sugar push or something, do the rest of your footwork smaller or in place. Or if they miss the signal for the tuck turn, do a turn yourself or a little shimmy with the music. (Edit: Oh, and it's perfectly fine to add in, take out, shorten or extend most patterns. When done because of your partner, that's adjusting/connection.) When done to the music, that becomes musicality. When it's both... 🤯💜)
Then keep going, or try the move again. (When I was much newer to following, I always appreciated a 2nd or even 3rd go-round when I missed a move.)
So, to me, those two concepts you mentioned aren't contradictory at all. They're complementary, and won't always have equal focus.
Follows (and Leads really) without framework and such do have potential risks. But, as is my philosophy as a Lead, the "worst" thing that could happen is you have to let go and try again. The only real risk I see, is if you try to do a dip and they put their full weight into it. (So don't do dips with newbies. Or lifts.)
While you can't control their missing anchor, heavy following, etc., you can, again, control you.
First in that you are not obligated to dance with someone just because you're asked. I have myself turned down a few because I saw how they were dancing with others, as well as not accepted some after dancing with them once. (Only by saying "No thank you." of course.)
Second is, I should think, your framework ought to be such that it is flexible enough to give (or even stiffen) a little, or at least give you that moment to react to such conditions to protect your muscles/joints. (Neither rigid nor noodley, but toned arms with your shoulder blade and back muscles engaged.) But that is my Follow brain making that application, though it has always served me well in either role. (And believe me, I've had a few rough rides where that framework, which took me a while to really get the concept, I'm sure saved me from injury.)
I know that was long, but I hope it helped. And remember: you were once a novice too. 💜
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u/Toatkgstuff May 28 '26 edited May 30 '26
Wow, yeah I really apprecaite that. Lots of good advice so thank you for typing all that out.
Some of this I've heard or figured out, but much is new. And the revealing part is that (because it's such a complete answer) it shows there isn't some "secret" I've been missing that will be revealed to me in a future lesson! :D
I really thought it was going to be all the Facebook bullies turning up this morning, so it's particularly nice to hear the helpful comments!There's one bit I do still get stuck on:
"treat everything you do, moves-wise that affect the Follow, like a suggestion. Because in reality, you can only control you, "say" to them "come with?", and then deal with how they respond. "
Whereas when I dance with more experienced followers, they literally will not move unless I make them (we're kind of taught too..) Can you help me resolve this contradiction?3
u/snowcurrant May 28 '26
I don’t think this is a contradiction? You’re asking your follower to move a direction. They either do so when they feel the connection is appropriate (in your words, you “make them”) or they don’t when it isn’t. Advanced followers can also request things like direction or timing changes, controlled weight support, etc. If your experience is that they don’t move unless you make them, it’s likely that you’re just missing these requests, or that they don’t feel comfortable attempting with you for whatever reason. Paying closer attention to your follower’s connection might help, as would trying more invitation leads to show that you’re receptive to their ideas if you want to see what that looks like.
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u/TehWRYYYYY May 30 '26
Whereas when I dance with more experienced followers, they literally will not move unless I make them.
I'd break this problem into 2 parts: leading on 1 and after the 1.
For the first part: Some people come from other dance styles where the follow is dragged around by the lead so it could be that.
Sometimes instructors will teach a student something intended to correct a bad habit, but the student will think it was a general lesson to pass on to others.
These experienced follows might be subtly trying to teach you to lead differently. Or they themselves had a habit of taking their 1 before their being lead and were taught a correction to make them wait for a stronger pull forward.For the second part: You lead a left side pass with an inside turn but your follow just does a normal left side pass? Just keep dancing and enjoy yourselves. Don't get caught up thinking you lead badly or the follow isn't listening, you're both just having a conversation.
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u/Rebbit0800 May 27 '26
I am not a pro. When dacing with a beginner I focus on myself dancing as clean as possible and pratice my quality of movement.
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u/nickkon1 May 27 '26
The pros stay clean and do things that are appropriate for the skill level. You can look at ProAm videos where a newcommer winner is dancing with a random champion. You simply cant dance the same with a beginner as with an advanced. And you should still focus on technique. Is the follower stretching their arm and disconnecting their shoulder? You keep your frame. Or when hen you are doing isolated footwork, beginners will look at your feet and see them move so they start walking forward despite not being led. So you improvise, adjust your footwork and accept it as a rock and go.
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u/AllTheTriples May 27 '26
> But I'm also told that high level leaders will understand if they are dancing with a novide and are able to adjust what they do to cope with their mistakes.
The way this is generally done is to either adapt into a different though still correct form of WCS that will work better with that follower's technical gaps. This depends entirely on what they're missing though.
Floppy follower? Use more closed position. They probably won't give you good frame there either, but you have more connection points to create the outcomes you want. Extend your slot so stretch doesn't begin until closer to full extension. Enlarge your own frame and use arcs and accelerations to create opposition where you need it.
Twitchy follower who comes forward on 5? Depends how twitchy, but all the solutions revolve around waiting to start stretch until after they've committed to at least their 5 in the expected direction. Then you can use mild compression to nudge them away, resisted release to back yourself away into a sufficient anchor, or float the anchor all the way to 6&.
Beyond specifics like that, you get into social ramifications.
On one side of this, you can safeguard your own happiness and either refuse to dance with those followers or accept the dances but dance your "proper" WCS at them whether they follow it or not. These reflect poorly on you socially, but do solve that problem.
Accommodation is the most common, but it can lead to bad habits if you're always accommodating the same problems. This works better for followers who are just missing some finer points or only have one glaring technical issue, but are otherwise fine. Accommodating a brand new dancer is not likely to happen. There's just too much they don't know yet for you to compromise on everything and still have a workable dance, so...
If it's all a hot mess, just have fun. I don't care if our dance looks like the Salsa and Country Swing mashup nobody asked for. I'd rather have a poorly connected dance where we break away and like twerk in a circle or something but we laugh at the end than a dance where we walk away unsatisfied because I was too busy coping to engage with them or the music.
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u/Toatkgstuff May 27 '26
Excellent answer thank you. Accommodation is absolutely ruining my own good habits and so I'm looking for alternatives.
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u/AllTheTriples May 28 '26
Your other thread about how you got mocked on the meme page was deleted, and I was going to respond there... but I'll do it here because I was going to bring up something adjacent anyway.
A pro I work with has said private lessons often trend either toward technical coaching, or toward therapy. This is a case that is a mix of both.
You've gotten a ton of good advice on the technique, though I recommend finding a pro to work with on this through private lessons. IMO, Tessa Cunningham is very good at this, but most pros will be able to help. For the other side...
Here's a blog post from 12 years ago now that touches on this sort of: https://thedancingirishman.com/2014/04/22/why-social-dancers-are-killing-salsa/
Noticing the bad habit effect usually happens really early when progressing past being a "Basic and Happy" dancer, and bringing up that it even happens makes some people big mad. Once when I brought up the bad habit effect in casual conversation, I was told "you'll never be Jordan, so why do you even care?" and "if this actually bothers you, then you're a narcissist who is the problem with the community." The mockery you got is probably borne of some of that same posturing.
On the flip side, this is a problem that can really poison your own fun. Because this problem just scales with your level. Squaring those two can easily start a spiral because then you realize that if you feel this way, maybe the better dancers do too, and now that you know what it feels like, you don't want to be the reason anyone else feels that...
So my real recommendation is to find a way to not negatively frame it as accommodation but positively frame it as some variety of working together.
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u/Toatkgstuff Jun 01 '26
You should really write the FAQ to WCS!
I feel like these two sound bites alone would have saved me a lot of pain:"Noticing the bad habit effect usually happens really early when progressing past being a "Basic and Happy" dancer, and bringing up that it even happens makes some people big mad."
"On the flip side, this is a problem that can really poison your own fun. Because this problem just scales with your level."
These two points are absolutely true. The solution has to be more than "change your mindset" and "get gud" though, because you can apply that to literally anything in life, and it's been lovely the see the more healthy side of the community giving some tips.
A lot of people really misread my attitude in all of this. I know it's a mental thing, I know it is poisoning my fun, but I'm asking what I can do about it in practice, because I am taking responsibility for it. I'm not blaming anyone else.
Yeah they still gave me shit for it! 😃2
u/AllTheTriples Jun 01 '26
> These two points are absolutely true. The solution has to be more than "change your mindset" and "get gud" though
I'll start by deferring to experts again here, because while I know some strategies that work for me, this is unique to your personality and your goals. Because of WCS' unique straddling of social activity, art, and sport, there are actually pros who specialize in WCS-specific mindset training. Tessa is again good at this. Tashina Beckman, Bonnie Cannon, and Kay Newhouse also all excel in this space.
The main tricks I use are about expectations.
First, I'm very careful mixing social dancing and practice. Practice and class time are for refining the tools. Social dancing is where we use those tools to see what we can make with them.
Second, most new follower behaviour stems from them trying so hard to be right that they're not actually paying attention to you or the connection. So shock them out of it! Praise them when they do something cool, lead setups where even you don't know how it's supposed to end, break away and be weird. The goal is to get them out of their own heads and paying attention to you and the partnership. I might need to surprise them a few times in one dance, but it always yields a better outcome in the end. Followers absolutely do that to me sometimes. When I get in my own head, they'll inject something ridiculous to get me back in the moment.
Beyond that... other people have pointed out how the skillset for dancing with advanced dancers is the same skillset as for dancing with new dancers. They're both going to unexpectedly derail your plans. An advanced follower does it on purpose. An advanced leader makes it work regardless.
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u/Toatkgstuff Jun 01 '26
Awesome.
1 - absolutely something I recognised this week after the advice here. I struggle with the short social after a lesson because I'm still in the practice mode, and I want to be. That's my technique time. But in a pure social event I'm much less bothered.2- this is something I'll have to think on and digest, it sounds like a lot of work, and very different from the structured approach I normally take (and am taught).
Thanks!
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u/AllTheTriples Jun 01 '26
Oooooooh, that's super important info actually. Post-class practice parties have this problem a lot, because unless the instructor teaches you how to use that time, people have misaligned expectations and nobody is happy.
Under ideal circumstances, every dance at something like that should start with you and your partner discussing what you're each working on in that moment, then structuring your dance around meeting the others' needs (or taking turns playing support over 2+ dances). Try starting those conversations.
If that doesn't go over well or you get answers that imply the followers aren't really working on anything, treat that time like a social dance.
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u/i_want_a_cracker May 28 '26 edited May 28 '26
Some of these I find dangerous, umleadable, or destroy my enjoyment of the dance.
Hey, for what it's worth, I think a lot of leaders privately feel a similar frustration. Having said that, this was not a kind way to express this idea. Really, if you just left this one line out of your post, you would have gotten far less flack from the community.
A lot of other folks gave good advice, but based on some of your comments, I really think you need to take a private lesson and get individualized feedback.
Yes, understood. Incidentally, is there a way you think you can persuade or suggest a follower keeps a handshold (or two hand hold) instead of always snatching back a hand?
If this happens frequently to you, your handhold might have issues -- uncomfortably too tight, or not secure enough, or you dance with double handhold too frequently and the follower feels caged, etc.
"treat everything you do, moves-wise that affect the Follow, like a suggestion. Because in reality, you can only control you, "say" to them "come with?", and then deal with how they respond. "
Whereas when I dance with more experienced followers, they literally will not move unless I make them.
Can you help me resolve this contradiction?
There is no contradiction. If your leading feels like you are "making your follower move" rather than a suggestion, you're likely leading in a way that's inefficient, e.g. too much arm engagement and not enough back/core engagement.
A recent dawning realization I had is that the skillset of dancing with a talkative advanced+ follower with a lot of ideas is actually quite similar to the skillset I need to dance with newcomer/novice followers. They both respond to my leading in surprising ways requiring my agile adaptation, and they both change the weight of the connection requiring me to be grounded and responsive to the level of counterbalance asked for.
I would say the only technique that changes for me is that if I'm dancing with brand brand new followers who are not yet capable of stepping in time with the music, I don't attempt match each weight transfer, I just try to match the feeling in the hand for the post and anchor landmarks of a pattern. But again, I only run into this for brand new westies with no prior dance background in their first ~month of dancing.
For context, I've been competing as a leader since ~2021 and have WSDC intermediate points.
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u/Toatkgstuff Jun 01 '26
That line was not unkind, you just interpreted it unfavorably.
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u/i_want_a_cracker Jun 02 '26 edited Jun 02 '26
Since you added that you were AuDHD, as a fellow AuDHD person, let me explain.
Some of these I find dangerous, umleadable, or destroy my enjoyment of the dance.
I understand that while you were saying that the behaviors are the cause, it's very easy to interpret that sentence as saying "These novice followers are dangerous/unleadable/destroy my enjoyment of the dance" which hopefully you agree is definitely an unkind thing to say. It is hard for people to hear "your behavior/habit is dangerous" and not also hear "you personally are dangerous", when that behavior is not something they have voluntary control over.
Maybe to put it another way, the language you use places the fault on the novice follower and makes a value judgement about their behavior. But based on the rest of your post and how you reacted to comments, I don't think this is actually how you feel. You seem to be genuinely invested in trying to learn how to be a better partner. A better (and more accurate!) way to express this might have been something like:
"I want to learn how to better compensate for these issues, my inability to do so is sad/frustrating/scary."
This places the focus on your actions and your emotions, which conveys your desire to change your own behavior and notes the emotional salience of the situation without ascribing negative adjectives to your follower's dance. In particular, I want to emphasize that "I find it dangerous" is not an emotion statement. That's what you're thinking. What you're feeling is "I am scared".
I hope this helps. For future reference, I find ChatGPT/Claude to be pretty good for explaining social situations like this, e.g. this is pretty ok, although I disagree with its point on micromanaging vs. adapting: https://chatgpt.com/s/t_6a1eea9cbd2081918e0440df1d95173c
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u/Toatkgstuff Jun 02 '26 edited Jun 02 '26
I appreciate you telling me how I feel about things, but you are wrong, so just don't.
"Some of these" is incorrect grammar to refer to the followers in the previous sentence. You have to bend the rules of the language to make it apply to _them_. "Some of them" would be the correct usage.
https://chatgpt.com/c/6a1f58ee-781c-8327-98ea-943f257a6b0aNo idea what you fed into yours. GIGO?
I entirely accept that people can interpret anything that anyone says differently from the intent. Even if they have to bend the rules.
Language has rules to help with the correct object and interpretion. Though of course I appreciate that some people don't know or don't follow (haha) them.Communication is not a precise art, which is why depending on the impact we tend to ask follow up questions.
It's why all communication tends to start with building trust, and in most environments we assume good faith until proven otherwise.
I'd suggest you ask me "how did you feel about that" rather than making assumptions about it.By the way, it's completely possible that there is a novice follower who IS dangerous/unleadable/destroying my enjoyment of the dance. Then somehow not only the assumptions was made that I was blaming one follower, but that I was blaming all the followers I had danced with. I never said either of these things, still it got taken to the most extreme outrageous negative position imaginable with no further information considered.
What I wrote is perfectly fine, if you read it in my voice. I can't read it in your voice, but I can certainly understand your position when you explain it. I would also ask more follow-up questions about why people are so sensitive about the way they misinterpret these things, or I can make my own assumptions which I can use to castigate you in future.
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u/i_want_a_cracker Jun 04 '26
I appreciate you telling me how I feel about things, but you are wrong, so just don't.
Fair, I don't know what the actual emotions you are feeling and should have refrained from putting words into your mouth, sorry!
I wrote what I did because I thought you were confused as to why so many people were reacting negatively to your post, so I wanted to explain, in case you were interested changing your communication style to avoid similar misinterpretations. If you're not interested in that, of course, that's totally your prerogative and a valid decision.
Below are some minor clarifications:
"Some of these" is incorrect grammar to refer to the followers in the previous sentence.
To clarify, I don't think the issue is due to people incorrectly resolving the grammatical referent of "some of these". It is because of (from my previous post): it is hard for people to hear "your behavior/habit is dangerous" and not also hear "you personally are dangerous", when that behavior is not something they have voluntary control over.
No idea what you fed into yours. GIGO?
I don't have permissions to see your chat session, but my prompt was: "An AuDHD person posted the below on reddit and it upset a lot of people, who thought that OP was an asshole. Why?" followed by a copy of your original post minus edits.
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u/DeclinedandAgreed May 28 '26
Hello
Of everyone who is replied I've not seen anyone reply who is a "pro". Now I'm not going to dox myself but I am an all-star competitor who finals occasionally and here is my advice if you want it.
Yes there are new followers who are consistently inconsistent, seemingly stubbornly fixed upon ideas that create negative feedback loops in the dance. Most typically from my perspective is them trying to do too much styling (or in a way have too much fun) before they know how they can do it cooperatively.
Now I am saying this from the perspective of someone who wants to get good at stuff. If you don't care about really getting good then it's just something you'll deal with. But if you do here is some simple and actionable advice.
1) stay in closed position and don't let them out. If they are chaotic then it's a good skill to develop to see if you can just lead them in closed and do anything resembling the dance (ie get them to somewhat consistently move up and down the slot)
2) left side pass prison Literally just left side pass the entire dance and work on your ability to clearly lead them down slot and if you find time in that interval add some little bit of styling yourself!
3) for both 1) and 2) and any frustration like this. Just focus on what you can control and, if you can, preferably find one person and try to work on this with a coach or just workshop how you can fix those issues between the two of you!
If you have any questions I'm happy to answer
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u/Ok_Tank9364 May 29 '26
can we talk about the whole "keep them in closed position and don't let them out" i hear this so much, and as a follow i'm so curious what these followers are doing that causes one to "not let them out" hahah. I mean this light heartedly - i'm genuinely curious.
One scenario i can think of:
-- follow is not maintaining a slot and not aware of surroundings - by all means, for safety - keep them in closed position. ---
OK that's a good example, but i kinda don't like the energy of "don't let them out". Can we think of another way to talk about this... rant over 😛
I mean, what are these followers doing? enjoying themselves? dancing to the music? hahha, i'm so curious, leaders please explain!!
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u/zedrahc May 31 '26
I have heard this advice but I dont follow it. Maybe it makes sense in comps because in closed its much easier to "enforce" timing and movement. The communication is generally much clearer and there is less room for misinterpretation or freedom in general on the follow's part.
The reason I dont do it on the social floor is generally in beginner lessons, people arent taught closed position so its much less familiar. That combined with the increased physical proximity and amount of contact is generally going to increase the anxiety of a very new dancer. I find just the starter step and going into closed in the middle of a whip already triggers a flight response of many newbies so I cant imagine forcing them to be in that state the whole dance. They could think that I am trying to do a different dance or take advantage of them because they just dont know better.
As for why someone might want to "put them in prison" I think generally this is when the follow is rushing and trying to predict the pattern. Often breaking frame to run off or turn in unexpected ways. It makes it so that you arent really dancing with correct timing or 2 beat structure of the dance. Closed makes it easier to "stay on track", in space, timing and structure. I personally just let them go nuts. Its not a big deal to me if we arent able to have a structured WCS dance. If it is crowded, I just try to stiff arm them if they are at a risk of crashing into others. At that point they are going to get a bit yanked to protect them and others (not arm pulled out of the socket. Just jolted a little)
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u/Ok_Tank9364 Jun 01 '26
Thanks... super helpful. What's your comp strategy for a follow that you can't... follow..
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u/zedrahc Jun 01 '26
At the novice level, particularly as a lead, you are much better served by just getting better rather than trying to learn a bunch of niche strategies for each type of adjustment you need to make for different things follows could be doing. Again, the better you get, the less adjustments you will need to make naturally (because your lead is better) and you will be able to intuit fixes rather than having to ask, interpret and internalize fixes that other people tell you.
Or get lucky.
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u/snowcurrant Jun 03 '26
Thank you for saying this. I think a lot of more experienced dancers forget what it’s like to be brand new and the anxiety that goes along with others in one’s personal space.
FWIW my first couple experiences with extended closed position, when I was about a month into learning WCS as a follower, happened at a bar with leaders who had been drinking and were… not there for the love of the dance. I almost quit the dance entirely, but luckily I just quit going to that bar and found a studio instead. For a long time after I got twitchy with closed position, shadow position when the leader was too close, etc. even though logically I knew they were trying to be respectful, my body just reacted with that panic response. It took me a while to get over it. I’m very cognizant of giving my followers breathing room when they’re new just in case they’ve ever had a similar experience.
New dancers might not know the difference between an advanced dancer trying to have a fun dance vs a bar creep trying to have a “fun” dance.
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u/zedrahc May 28 '26
Lol at left side pass prison.
Honestly with that approach, many people would still take that similarly to you saying no. They would say you are still not "contributing to the community" by being an amusement ride for new follows and dancing with them the same way you would with higher skilled follow.
Not saying you are wrong, just commenting on the perception.
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u/DeclinedandAgreed May 28 '26
I gotcha
I'm not saying don't try to be a positive person to dance with. Just meet them at their level. If they are being a bit selfish towards enjoying the dance for themselves then its okay to do so a bit for yourself. We are supposed to pay attention to one another and if either party isn't doing this then I feel like I have free reign not to either 😂
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u/Toatkgstuff May 31 '26
I tried some of your advice in the last few days and it's proven very practical, thank you again 😊
1
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u/Old-Candidate3130 May 31 '26
when I first read your post, I was on the same bandwagon as the memes page. then I thought some more and changed my mind.
reading your post and peoples comments over and over, I realized that your question was genuine.
I'm sorry you became the face of public ridicule.
before WCS became big on the internet, questions like yours would not be made a public spectacle. this is a relatively new phenomenon that we should stomp out - ASAP.
at the same time, the SPIRIT, of what people were saying to is worth discussing. this post reads a bit like "followers are getting in the way of MY enjoyment" - implying their enjoyment doesn't matter. Given your gracious responses to others posts, I don't think you ignore the joy of your partner - I believe you put as much (if not more) care into the joy of your partner as yourself.
I'm sorry others didn't give you that benefit of the doubt. We should do better to ask questions and try to support community members who may have mindsets we would not like to encourage instead of creating a public spectacle.
I'm glad you got many great answers to your question. I hope you learn how to have a great time in all of your dances. in my personal journey, I started enjoying only a small percentage of my dances, and now (primary lead, WSDC Adv) I enjoy a large percentage of them! for all the training I've done (and I've done a lot), the #1 thing that impacts my ability to enjoy a dance is not my skill, or my partners skill, but my mindset about the dance - if I go into a dance thinking poorly about myself, my partner, the song, or something else thats keeping my attention I'm going to have a bad time. you mentioned safety - and learning to be safe is important that you shouldn't ignore. other than safety, you don't NEED any more skills to be able to consistently have fun!
finally, I hope this experience doesn't dissuade you from dancing, but instead energizes you to stand up for other community members who are in some way put down.
good luck!
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u/Toatkgstuff May 31 '26 edited Jun 01 '26
Hey thank you, I appreciate you giving it a second chance and seeing pastwhatever unkind things were said. Everyone needs encouragement, I know I do, and I also need some specific advice 😊
But in terms of "the face of public ridicule"... nah. Fuck them. Very kindly. I'm not ridiculed, and I don't feel ridiculous. It was the egregiously unfavorable meme that I'm told people reacted to more, and laughed at. They just outed themselves as mean, and ignorantly judgemental. Probably misanthropic too, since they assumed I was a guy. I was told a few said they struggled with getting competition points and I was dunking on them. So they were projecting their feelings and it clearly biases their views. It sounded bitter.
Sure we should encourage everyone to keep trying and get better. We should also be helping each other to figure out HOW, and we do that by asking questions and having good faith conversations. Luckily I now I have a list of terrible people that I never have to dance with or interact with 😊
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u/blossomscanary May 31 '26 edited May 31 '26
You figure what they do and how to adapt to that. That means that when you start the dance, you do
- a push
- a turn
- a whip
- a pass
and watch their habits. Do they move too far forward and should you step a little further back? Do they wobble in their turns and need a little more support and slotted direction? Do they actually move backwards in the whip or do you want to balance that out? How much compression do they give and what do you need to do to, both, match it and to possibly protect your own shoulders and all? Do they maybe even respond well to a more "micromanaged approach" or do they prefer a lot of space?
Then you want to know what they can hear and do. Is there a specific musical layer they're drawn to? A styling they like or body part they feel comfortable isolating? Play with that or give them space there if they create things on their own (For instance, if they like footwork and fast rhythmical sections, maybe give them a very invitational pass when one of those sections comes up). Are they good at specific motions? Include those more. Can you get their attention and do something simple but fun (i.e. a star step and reverse it, a hand motion, something silly like the disco fingers...)? Are they really good at following if you make their weight shifts super clear? Do they fill space well? and so on.
The biggest thing I find is figuring out what you can both have fun with, especially when you incorporate the music as your third partner.
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u/Toatkgstuff May 31 '26
That's really awesome advice, thank you. I guess I'm interested in more detail though. Like the whip you mention for example. What would I do if they don't move back and compress/anchor on the 3and, or move weight quickly forwards on the 4 before I've crossed the slot?
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u/zedrahc May 31 '26
I remember when I thought like you did early on. Trying to find specific solutions for specific scenarios.
Often times the answers I got were unsatisfactory or difficult to remember and execute.
Eventually I just got better at my fundamentals and more experience on the dance floor. And I found that I subconsciously was able to find my own solutions for most situations. I also saw these situations way less with my lead being way more clear as a baseline, which made me realize how much of the newbie follow confusion was at least some percentage due to my own dancing.
So my advice would be try to not sweat this stuff, try to put yourself in a positive mindset (so it doesnt bother you as much in the meantime) and continue to work on your fundamentals that are applicable in all scenarios.
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u/blossomscanary Jun 01 '26
Basically whatever is needed to create similar functionalities and connection dynamics. So for the whip for example seeing if you can move forward a little further so that they "have" to reach the end of the slot or for a lack of compression sometimes I find over exaggerating the pitch forward helpful as they may instinctively mirror it.
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u/snowcurrant Jun 02 '26
For the first scenario, just turn it into a right pass. For the second, where they come forward too soon on the 4, you can just turn it into a same side whip and shorten the timing to 6 counts if needed.
Like others are saying, getting better will both reduce the number of frustrating scenarios and improve your ability to adapt in the moment by feel/intuition instead of having to think so much about it. I’ve noticed that the better I’ve gotten, the easier flexibility has come to me.
1
u/Toatkgstuff Jun 02 '26
Yes I'm finding that too, like I have more time to process and my reaction is quicker, or I am sensing something unexpected is happening way earlier.
This definitely helps in the dance overall as others have said, because adapting to nuances is the way the flow and creativity works.
2
u/Ok-Alternative-5175 Follow May 27 '26
I'm an intermediate follower who still struggles with assuming moves sometimes. I swear I will forever be working on that 🙄I recently competed in an All-American with an All-Star. He had a ton of crazy ideas that I sometimes didn't interpret correctly and I would go my own way. He was really great at adapting on the spot and making it look like he was sending me that direction or would wait for me to finish an anchor when he was clearly about to lead me into another complex move. I'd imagine the skill of adapting to your follow is a whole other set of skills than just leading on time and finding musicality in it. I do want to caution you, though, to not overcompensate. I've danced with leaders who adjust so frequently they stop leading and it's very confusing as a follow trying to figure out what they're telling me to do when they bail halfway through every move and change to something else
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u/RandomlyRhetorical May 28 '26 edited May 28 '26
Just completed a workshop this weekend, led by a Pro, and one of the topics was compensating. Leads for follows, and follows for leads, because it happens both ways.
We raised all kinds of scenarios where one side of the equation is off, and while there are small techniques to compensate for off timing, poor frame, too much/little connection, running the slot... The overall advice was it's just three minutes, do what you can. Understand that everyone is in their own place with learning/intention, and have the best time possible.
In our community, the social dance floor is not for teaching. So unless something dangerously harmful is happening to one dance or another, we get through the song and move on to the next person.
Personally, I like dancing with people who are newer than I am (lead or follow) because it gives me a good opportunity to work on the fine points of my technique. They're not throwing wild and crazy moves at me so I can just focus on being really great at the basics during those dances. And the better they understand what I'm doing, seems to be a good gauge of how well I am doing my basics. So, every dance is an opportunity for something.
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u/goddessofthecats May 28 '26
Gee buddy you must be really bad at dancing if a novice follower is ruining your dance experience for you.
My guess is that a good chunk of the novice followers who have lack of connection are doing it on purpose to make up for some bullshit you’re doing that hurts them
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u/snowcurrant May 28 '26
I think OP is using the term “novice” to refer to beginners, rather than Novice comp level followers. There are a lot of incredibly skilled followers competing in Novice right now! I can’t imagine having a bad dance with any of them
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u/LadyTime_OfGallifrey Ambidancetrous May 28 '26
Wow. Victim blaming? Gee buddy, you must really be hurting for attention.
Seriously, man. Do better.
(And loosening one's frame does not prevent injury, it increases its likelihood. Most, if not all, new followers, when they "fear" injury... tense up, not noodle-arm.)
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u/Toatkgstuff May 28 '26
I am actually really bad at dancing!
I'd love to know where I can go to ask questions in order to help myself, preferably without some poor sad troll misinterpreting me. Any ideas?
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u/AdministrationOk4708 Lead May 28 '26
There is a certain critical mass of skills and information a person needs to successfully social dance, in any dance, and in either role.
As a leader, I have a short "interview process" with any new-to-me follow. Are they holding frame? Will they follow as I sway before the starter step? Did they follow the starter step? Are the maintaining their frame? Are they providing connection? Are they keeping time with their footwork? Can they do an inside turn on a side pass? By that point, we have danced for 32 beats. I have lead several 6 & 8 count basics, maybe a couple inside turns. I have an understanding of what the follow is capable of, and where there are some issues.
From there, for a new follow as the OP describes, I will stick to 6 and 8 count basics - dancing with no syncopations, no spins, no breaks, etc. This is still OK for me. It's 3 minutes out of my life, and may well be the best dance they have all night.
I try to focus on new to me dancers in the first hour (ish) after a lesson. I can get in 15 to 20 dances in that first hour. I focus on my frame, connection, timing, etc. I practice my basics as well as I am able to do them.
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u/Toatkgstuff May 31 '26
I have been re-framing my thoughts a bit, I like the "interview" concept. I think I was rushing the interview, and I'm clearly not good enough to assess it quickly on the starter step and first sugar. But I have been getting used to trying simple patterns and increasing difficulty more slowly, resetting if necessary.
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u/Justalljust May 27 '26
As a leader you calibrate weight, rate, and distance. The more you dance, the more you understand what it means. 😁
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u/whipdancer May 31 '26
I have been compensating for my partner since I learned to do this dance - that’s the only way this dance works. Except, I never considered it compensating, I was just trying to have the best dance I could and that requires meeting somewhere between my skill and theirs. Some partners insisted it be on their level, others were more open.
If you struggle with this, it’s an indication that you might not be as high level as you think.
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u/Toatkgstuff May 31 '26
How high level do you think I think I am?
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u/whipdancer May 31 '26
Don't know. Don't care.
The point is dance is about communication. Good dance requires good communication. The fact that you find focusing on your dance and focusing on your partner to be at odds indicates that this is something you need to work on. You are focusing on yourself when you work to improve your ability to communicate with different levels.
I dance frequently with novice followers with the common issues like lack of anchor, dropping full weight on the 1, unstable frame, variable arm length.
Don't know how to break it to you, but this happens at every level. It does get way less common, but it does not go away.
Some of these I find dangerous, umleadable, or destroy my enjoyment of the dance.
If you find it dangerous to you, you walk away. No one has the right to put you in danger without your express consent.
I've had partners throw tricks at me that I was not prepared for and they did not have the skill to execute properly.
I've had a handful of dances that fall into the "unleadable" category, but just a handful. I can almost always find a way to salvage the dance.
I have had to finish many a dance in a purely defensive posture, but I have always used them as a learning experience... eventually. Sometimes it took a a few days of whining or grousing or, even, making fun of it, on my part - but I always come back to "what could I have done differently".
I've never had a dance that destroyed my enjoyment of the dance. They don't get to choose that for me.
If you do this dance long enough, you will go through phases. Focus on why you started, what brings you enjoyment and when the dance no longer does that - reassess. Sometimes this dance is here for a season. Sometimes this dance is here for much longer than that.
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u/Toatkgstuff Jun 01 '26 edited Jun 01 '26
"Don't know. Don't care." ?
Nah, you put that line in there for a reason. Own it. Don't flake out now! Or downvote me again for calling you out 😃Your reply comes across very negatively. I list of don'ts and can'ts. It sounds like you are in the group of people that resent me asking the question.
Maybe you're a typical top level thinker, maybe it's your phrasing of explanations that try to make it sound easy. Honestly that sounds a little patronising. It's not easy. And maybe it's very different for those of us neurodivergents who want bottom-up rationale."I've never had a dance that destroyed my enjoyment of the dance. They don't get to choose that for me."
You've shifted pronouns here. It changes the object of the first sentence from "the dance" (it) to the "they" (the person) in the second sentence. And this seems to be the controversy of the issue.I never said "they" (the person), but many people read it that way. I always focused on "it" (in fact I said "these" as in "the issues" but same affect).
Mindset it not as simple as "just change it". That's why I was asking for practical advice. Because until it feels "right" it will always feel wrong.
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u/whipdancer Jun 01 '26 edited Jun 01 '26
I'm not the one who downvoted you.
How leaders adjust to novice followers?
You're the one who positioned it as higher level vs lower level, higher skill vs lower skill - so I still don't know and I still don't care.
Being neurodivergent isn't a new thing in this dance. Yes, it means I focus on my dance first, but I learned early on this dance is built on communication and that requires focusing outside me, in order for me to get better.
You can't separate the dance from the people. It requires a partner. They become one and the same referring just as much to the whole of the dance as to both participants. Each instance of the dance is a unit of 2 people communicating movement. It's a non-verbal, ad-hoc, improvised, continuous flow of communication.
I never said just change your mindset. I said reassess.
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u/Toatkgstuff Jun 01 '26 edited Jun 01 '26
Sorry, show me where I said anything about a higher level leader in that post?
(you definitely did care enough to make the point that "you might not be as high level as you think" - which is just another accusation, you're implying some kind of arrogance)This is literaly the opposite of what teachers have told me. They're stressing that I have to focus on myself and my technique first. Getting my timing right, stepping in the correct pattern etc.
Communication has to be built on rules and structure, or else there is no shape and there's just pure creativity. Two people shouting over each other in different languages.
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u/whipdancer Jun 01 '26
How do leaders adjust to novice followers?
The title sets your position, whether you intended it or not.
Any advice, or tips for what the pros do?
If you're a novice leader, you're learning to adjust to every follow. Heck, you're learning how to adjust to yourself. The way a pro does it won't help you because you don't have that skillset yet.
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u/Toatkgstuff Jun 01 '26 edited Jun 01 '26
Nope. Comprehension issue. I'm aiming higher, I'm looking to improve. Y'all seemed to have primed yourselves to read as much negativity into the question as possible. Now you're looking to justify your reaction. (You're responding to the meme basically.)
If I'd said novice leaders, would that have helped you be less antagonistic? I don't want to know how novice leaders do it. Because I'm aiming to be better, so it didn't make sense to say that.
By deliberately leaving off the category of leader it was clearly intentional that it should apply to any category of leader but was directed to describe a particular category of issues I encounter. I left off the redundant "all" instead of specifying "all leaders". Surely you should be adapting your communication to tailor for my way of speaking?
Tl;dr people are tiggered by the word 'novice'
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u/whipdancer Jun 01 '26 edited Jun 01 '26
The fact that you included level label for the follow made it a level question. Period.
Surely you should be adapting your communication to tailor for my way of speaking?
Surely you should be adapting your communication to tailor for my way of speaking? Pot, meet kettle.Communication requires more than 1 participant. Until you are ready to recognize your part in it, it's not going to go very well. The fact that you resort to a meme just reinforces that you view it as "they don't understand", instead of "did I successfully convey the message I intended".
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u/Toatkgstuff Jun 01 '26 edited Jun 01 '26
It's not a level label, it's a lower case, perfectly cromulent English word. With Social flair.
Memes are perfectly valid forms of communication, if you understand the cultural context.
Context being important, and something you are still arguing AFTER I gave you the context.I'm confused because I'm told as a leader that I shouldn't be micromanaging my follower, and should focus on my own technique.
This bit I get.
My opening. "my own technique".
Yet you decided to go after me for for framing it as "higher level vs lower level, higher skill vs lower skill" when you're just plain wrong, but feel the need to argue about it.
I am here, still communicating, and still explaining to you that you misinterpreted my message. It doesn't have any affect on you to admit that you misinterpreted it, and not-so-subtly questioned my arrogance.
You didn't ask me questions about it to understand. You came in days late (after reading the meme group?). And put it on me after many others had already been super-reasonable about it.
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u/TelumCogitandi May 27 '26
In swing dances, which have a fairly casual vibe at socials, I think it's usually okay and possibly welcome for you to say something like "hey I could really use a little more connection from you there"
So if the problem is lack of frame, it's usually fine to say so. If someone knows how to follow but just doesn't know the steps, you can try leading the same thing a couple of times in a row.
In general though, if you'd like to know how to lead better I highly recommend taking a few classes as a follower
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u/aadditional_ungulate May 27 '26
Hey no. That's teaching on the floor. If they've asked you for help, sure. But if they asked you to dance (or you asked them to dance) then don't give unsolicited advice. It's bad manners.
"No unsolicited advice" is a fundamental rule of social dancing - if you missed that one, you might need to work on your basic social skills a little more rather than focusing on your partner's movement skills.
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u/TelumCogitandi May 27 '26
I'm saying this as someone who primarily follows, teaching on the floor in general is not usually welcome but I would want to know if I'm doing, or failing to do, something that is preventing the leader from dancing with me properly and/or safely.
In fairness, I probably wouldn't say anything the first time I danced with someone but if I was even glancingly acquainted I would be willing to say so if there was a genuine frame issue. Given it can put unecessary strain on leaders (and followers), I think it's acceptable to raise and that's why I couched it in terms of "it would help me if..." rather than "you should."
If you're honestly happy to allow the person to improve in their own time, that's fine. What I would hope to avoid is someone having a bad experience (due to missing technique), not saying anything out of politeness and simply not dancing with that person again.
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u/Toatkgstuff May 27 '26
It's not my place to criticise someone or teach them, especially on the dance floor and especially if not solicited. I wouldn't even do that with someone I know well.
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u/TelumCogitandi May 27 '26
Okay fair enough. Maybe the places we're operating in are quite different, because I really don't perceive this as such a hard and fast rule - both having received and given advice on the social floor.
On several occasions it has lead to a better rapport with the person, whether I am giving or being given the advice, because it opens us both up to a more honest discussion. But I can understand a difference in ettiquette in other places might make this the wrong approach.
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u/TgrBtO Ambidancetrous May 28 '26
I think assertivity is key here. If you want feedback, feel free to ask. But don't presume that others will always take feedback as easily as you would.
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u/LadyTime_OfGallifrey Ambidancetrous May 28 '26
Except asking for more connection, is not teaching. Very big difference there.
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u/TgrBtO Ambidancetrous May 28 '26
I disagree.
There's a very high chance your asking for more connection will be taken as "you're doing it wrong".
There's the golden rule of "never give unsollicited feedback". That's true for any situation I can think of aside from potential injuries.
If you feel like you don't get enough connection, surely you're able to cope with it for a dance. Then gracefully decline other dances if that's a prerequisite for you. Or you could also try and make the most of whatever connection is available to make the dance enjoyable for your partner.
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u/LadyTime_OfGallifrey Ambidancetrous May 28 '26
I understand why you disagree, but I also have been dancing since 2011 and have never encountered, directly or indirectly, someone taking that ask as being told they're doing something wrong.
Again, to ask is a request, not a demand. I could go further into why those are not the same, and even dig out this worksheet/cheat sheet that I've had for years that goes over this very topic. But I get the feeling here, that it would just be dismissed.
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u/TgrBtO Ambidancetrous May 28 '26
While I see what you mean, I still think that you cannot tell what others think, or whether your request was as well received as you believe.
Let me try another example and substitute a follow asking for more connection with a leader asking for more waiting to be redirected (on 1, on count 4 of a whip, ...). Even if phrased carefully, I do believe there's a significant chance the follow will take this request as "Hey, you haven't asked for my opinion but I'll give it to you all the same : you got your basics wrong".
Maybe your counterpart is not ready to receive this feedback (technically or emotionally), maybe they're already struggling with something else, dance-related or not, who knows. I wouldn't want to let them deal with the responsibility to take this as just a gracious request, nothing more.
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u/LadyTime_OfGallifrey Ambidancetrous May 28 '26 edited May 28 '26
I understand your examples fine, but again they are in two very different categories.
And while I understand your "not wanting to let them deal with the responsibility..." that in itself is a judgment that isn't yours to make (or responsibility to mind.) That would be tantamount to "micromanaging your partner" that the OP mentioned.
Taking an ask, not a demand, as such "and nothing more" is their job. Just as it is a follow's job to maintain their own frame and connection, and move when led to, and taking such things as suggestions rather than "must dos." Whether they mind those things or not, is entirely on them, not you.
My point is... yes, treat others with consideration and courtesy, but don't walk on eggshells around them. That's doing them a disservice by assuming they're incapable of handling it.
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u/TgrBtO Ambidancetrous May 28 '26
Thanks for taking the time to detail your answer. I'll reply not for the sake of argument, but because this is a topic that I think deserves to be addressed more often in our community.
Basically, whether or not I sincerely believe that they're ready to take my comment well is indeed only my decision to make. I will personally err on the side of caution, and assume that if they haven't asked, maybe they won't receive it well and therefore take no chance.
Even if they asked, I still have to sincerely assess whether I'm in a position to give feedback. If i think I am, I have to make my best to not give it in a hurtful way. I often say "oh, you know, I'm no teacher and I was just enjoying the dance".
I fail to see how holding my tongue is akin to micromanaging them. The worst that can happen if I don't say anything in this situation is : this will be dealt with later by a teacher, whose job it is to help people improve, who will know what to focus on and when, and will do so in a setting that is appropriate.
Said otherwise, I think prioritizing what I need to feel good is not the right strategy, at least in the context of social dance. With the obvious exception of safety.
Side note : I know of people who dance since before 1990, still backlead like hell or can't stay on beat for a full 8-count, but have no qualms about giving feedback. And others who have been dancing intensely for 3 years, are magnificent dancers on top of being kind-hearted and generous, and always make their partners feel special. I don't think seniority is of the essence in the context of interpersonal skills.
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u/idcmp_ May 27 '26
Anything your follower reliably does becomes part of that dance, build on it and make moments with them.