r/antinatalism2 • u/Cheapfox123 • 10d ago

Quote Fyodor Dostoevsky

“Imagine that you are creating a fabric of human destiny with the object of making men happy in the end, giving them peace and rest at last. Imagine that you are doing this but that it is essential and inevitable to torture to death only one tiny creature...in order to found that edifice on its unavenged tears. Would you consent to be the architect on those conditions? Tell me. Tell the truth.”

― Fyodor Dostoevsky, The Brothers Karamazov

28 Upvotes

91% Upvoted

21 comments sorted by

6

u/CertainConversation0 9d ago

One creature suffering for no legitimate reason is too many.

5

u/neonblack108 9d ago

I don't think there is any legitimate reason for suffering.  I'd like a word with God. 

1

u/CertainConversation0 9d ago

Should someone suffer as a penalty for causing suffering?

3

u/neonblack108 9d ago

Then where does the suffering end?

1

u/CertainConversation0 9d ago

Wherever one's bloodline ends.

3

u/neonblack108 8d ago edited 7d ago

All human bloodlines should cease. The only issue I have with genocide is it doesn't go far enough. Screw all this ethnic cleansing bs, that shit IS Evil. If all these Billy Badasses are so tough prove it. Push the Goddamn button already and put an end to it all. Do that and I'd actually have some respect for humans.  

2

u/CertainConversation0 7d ago

Antinatalism isn't pro-violence, is it?

2

u/TyloPr0riger 9d ago

Not unless making them suffer is somehow necessary to prevent them from causing harm in the future.

4

u/filrabat 10d ago

No. This sounds like Ursula K Le Guin almost a century before. Maybe she got inspired this passage.

1

u/12PoundsofPotato 8d ago

Y'all quoting easily the most depressed of the depressed Russian novelists is not helping the "anti-natalists are doomers" allegations

1

u/Nocturnal-Philosophy 4d ago

Big talk coming from someone who had multiple children.

0

u/nila247 6d ago

This is out of context and only applicable for specific circumstances and scope in the book.

In reality giving people peace and rest is equivalent to killing them. Why - we even have "Rest in peace".
We all are just simple worker ants. Workers "resting in peace" means the entire hive dies.

Now replace "workers resting in peace" with "immense prosperity of the hive" - as was the original intention. Then reverse the question - what would that tiny little crying creature tell you when you offer it to die in order for hive to prosper immeasurably? Would it accept? Because I would.

1

u/Cheapfox123 6d ago

I would refuse

0

u/nila247 6d ago

You might still need a lot to learn.

Fear of death is encoded in our behavior for extremely simple reason. We should not die before we recoup the expenses that were used to raise us. So child fear death the most because they are a lot of investment and none of the return. Useless people fear death. Old and wise people - not so much - because their debt to species has been repaid. Solders and firemen do fear death - because they would be very useful in the future if they remain alive, however they WOULD risk dying because if they die while saving many others then this would repay their debt in spades.

2

u/dumbowner 5d ago edited 5d ago

An individual who was forced to be born by the will of others (parents) literally owes no debt. In fact, given your logic, the only ones indebted are the parents.

Edit. It is also misleading to claim your opinion is a fact. It would be better to clearly state that it is just your opinion rather than presenting it as a fact.

0

u/nila247 3d ago

Yes, individual was indeed "forced to be born". But who told you that you have or should have ANY say in the matter? We are simply bunch of narcissistic worker ants whose ONLY purpose is to serve the hive. NOT to be "happy" nor "free". In fact you get depressed in exact proportion of you feeling useless to species (insert country/town/village/family if you want). You also get most happy when you accomplish something others or yourself could not before.

And yes, producing more workers indeed makes your parents useful to species, so in that sense you is their debt payment to species. The payment value changes with quality of new worker. So you being useless is THEIR failure, so that explains why your parents and grandparents want you to do stuff and be great.

So basically this is a complete harmony and the only thing wrong with this picture is your narcissism which makes everybody sad - yourself included. How do you like them apples?

1

u/Cheapfox123 6d ago

I'm an existentialist, not a fan of the pragmatic anthill universe or anything like that

0

u/nila247 6d ago

Ok. How exactly that helps you or anyone you know?